psychboi85
12-20-2007, 05:56 PM
“While I embrace the fundamental truth that we are to be in the world but not of it, when are we blurring the line in supporting an author of atheistic propaganda?
I agree entirely with your premise. We are sheep among wolves.
When is being in the appearance of evil defined?
When is tolerance wrong?
Yet as Christians we have to consider a couple of things that in 1st and 2nd timothy relate to us about being stumbling blocks for our brothers and for non believers.
A) In funding Pullman’s work we are communicating that we enjoyed it and support it. It’s a trade; we pay him to supply us with that content.
This argument is the same ethical principle as Christians and alcohol.
While it is permissible, to drink, drunkenness is a sin.
SO the problem is threefold. And only if it passes these three rules it allows us to do it.
-It does not affect our testimony (past alcoholism, friends who are younger, weaker brother argument)
-It is legal. (Obeying authority)
- It is glorifying to God”
The previous text is one person's opinion on how Christians should approach the controversial film "The Golden Compass".
What a tricky scenario to be in. On one hand, a “good” Christian does not want to support the anti-God, atheistic material because it might affect his testimony. On the other hand, boycotting the movie, for whatever the reason, has him written off as a crazy fundamentalist, which seems equally damaging to this said testimony. What is the right thing to do?
According to this person’s perspective, there are 3 rules that determine whether or not something is “ok”
1.) It does not affect our outward testimony
2.) It is not illegal
3.) It is glorifying to God
Though simple as it sounds, two of these rules are ineffective, leaving one of these rules as being the sole determiner of whether or not something is the “right” thing to do.
Our outward testimony: to Catch a Stumbler
This has become one of Christianity’s great clichés. What exactly is a “testimony” and how can we make others “stumble”? For many, a testimony is a public profession of their faith or religious experience. For the legal system, testimony is a written or oral statement used as evidence to give in court. In either case, it is proof of something. The “proof” is some outward indication for others to see and come to the same conclusion. Though James 2:14 cautions us about “faith without works” is the overwhelming principle in the Bible for Christians to follow, “Be careful of what you do and how it will reflect on others?”
One of the most important verses in the Bible is found in 1 Samuel 16, “Looks aren't everything. Don't be impressed with his looks and stature. I've already eliminated him. GOD judges persons differently than humans do. Men and women look at the face; GOD looks into the heart." These words are taken straight from God. In Matthew 23, Jesus often laments the Pharisees and their condition. They have cleaned and polished the outside of their cup, but the inside is full of maggots and rot. They are like an elaborate sarcophagus; beautifully decorated on the outside, but on the inside, nothing but death and lifelessness. The truth that is to be gleaned from this is that outward appearance means very little to God. Jesus instead emphasizes in John 13:35, “This is how everyone will recognize that you are my disciples – when they see the love you have for each other”. Our internal motivations are what matter the most to God.
This business of making a weaker person stumble is very perplexing to me. I believe the person meant to reference chapters in Romans, not the books of Timothy, when alluding to being a “stumbling block” to others. To believe that we have the capability of making others stumble in their walk is to believe in an external locus of control. We can’t accept the blame for much of our wrong doing, because there are cases where others “made” us do it. Weak people believe that they are not in control of their choices, and to promote this belief of having the power to make others stumble perpetuates weak Christianity. God is a God of options. Though people may be tempted, and we may be instruments of temptation to others, God does not just let people blindly fall into temptation. We are told that God provides a means of escape with every tempting scenario. God is a being of free choice and free will. Nothing forces God to do anything. We, being made in the image of God, have this freedom of choice. God many times is seen as giving man options. Deuteronomy 30:19 is one of my favorite verses to echo this point, God says, “I place before you Life and Death, Blessing and Curse. Choose Life…” Interestingly enough, Jesus is referenced as being a type of “stumbling block” to others in 1 Peter 2:8, “To you who trust him, he's a Stone to be proud of, but to those who refuse to trust him…They trip and fall because they refuse to obey, as they were destined to do.”
If it’s not against the Law, it’s not against the Lord
If something is not illegal, does that automatically imply that it is “right”? Another way to look at it is this, if something is illegal, does that automatically imply that it is “wrong”? Let’s think of some examples that may disprove this initial obvious truth.
People every day meet in secret underground churches to worship God, even though it is illegal to do so.
Is this right?
People hid Jews in their homes during the Holocaust even though it was illegal.
Was that right?
To believe that if it is not illegal, it is ok limits God – and coincidentally our capacity to serve God – by the narrow constraints of the law.
Paul reminds us of an important thought in Romans 4-10: “Moses wrote that anyone who insists on using the law code to live right before God soon discovers it's not so easy—every detail of life regulated by fine print! But trusting God to shape the right living in us is a different story…It's the word of faith that welcomes God to go to work and set things right for us. That's it. You're not "doing" anything; you're simply calling out to God, trusting him to do it for you. That's salvation. With your whole being you embrace God setting things right, and then you say it, right out loud: ‘God has set everything right between him and me!’ ” Even more important to realize is what Paul says in Galatians 5:18, “If you are lead by the Spirit, no law can touch you.”
We have to be careful that we don’t limit God to just what the Bible “says” (whatever that means), because to do that essentially means we are “killing God” as the characters do in this controversial film. The Bible is nothing but neutral words on a page, capable of saying anything and everything a person would wish it to – but not on its own. The Bible is nothing new to us, but its’ spirit is newly heard. God is still speaking. Many of us Christians have fallen into a path of idolatry. No, we’re not worshiping a golden calf or Baal, but we are worshiping the Bible and the Church. Both of these have important roles, but neither of them was meant to take the place of God. They are meant to point back to the one it is all about!
My understanding of God is based strictly on the sense that while God sent Jesus to die for everyone, it is not enough to believe that fact. I must believe it on a more personal, individual level. Jesus died for me. The focus is, once again, brought back to the individual, not the masses. God’s relationship with me is all that matters. God’s relationship with others does not apply to me. We humans, each being completely different from one another, could not possibly relate to God in the same way, because none of us are the same person. We find ourselves in the same condition – lost and in need of something bigger than ourselves to save us – but it is an individual experience that we cannot compare equally with one another. We are God’s sheep, but we were never called to ignorantly or blindly follow. If we accept that God died for us all – individually, and believe that God longs for a personal and individual relationship with us, we must be careful that we not try to project that which is our special connection with God as being the only way one can relate to God.
Facts or Faith: Lead me and I will follow
All of this comes down to one single element: Faith. Faith is a terrifying experience for us. We long for categorization – left, right; in, out; good, bad; black, white. However, so few things that matter in this world are simply deduced to this. Faith is the ability to wade out all that is grey in life, knowing that God is there in that grey with you. It is my belief that there is absolute truth, and since each of us is related to God on the level of the individual – not the group, many times this “absolute truth” is relative. It stands to reason that since our relationship with God is not a collective relationship, but a personal one, there are going to be individual – not collective- obstacles in this relationship, and individual boundaries that will have to be maintained. Paul alludes to this in Romans 14:5 “ One person thinks that some days should be set aside as holy and another thinks that each day is pretty much like any other. There are good reasons either way. So, each person is free to follow the convictions of conscience. What's important in all this is that if you keep a holy day, keep it for God's sake; if you eat meat, eat it to the glory of God and thank God for prime rib; if you're a vegetarian, eat vegetables to the glory of God and thank God for broccoli. None of us are permitted to insist on our own way in these matters. It's God we are answerable to—all the way from life to death and everything in between—not each other."
The person who wrote the introductory statement about how to know whether or not it is ok to do something is mistaken in all of the guidelines with the exception of one key element: “It is glorifying to God”. Unfortunately, that direction is extremely vague. What brings God glory? Cain thought bringing God produce from his farm would bring God glory, but God did not accept it. Again, it all comes down to the individual’s motivations, not the outward acts. And unless we, as the individual, are aware of who or what is motivating us, and how that affects our personal relationship with God, it will be hit or miss.
So how, then, are we to approach an issue such as "Should I, as a Christian, see the Golden Compass?"
There are three things we must consider before making a decision, none of which are indicative of the ultimate "right" answer for everyone:
1.) What is motivating me to do this?
2.) By doing this, what would be the effect on my relationship with God?
3.) Taking 1 and 2 into account, can I, in good conscience, do this?
If you have to struggle with any or all of these steps, perhaps the answer is there and you are unwilling to see it.
I agree entirely with your premise. We are sheep among wolves.
When is being in the appearance of evil defined?
When is tolerance wrong?
Yet as Christians we have to consider a couple of things that in 1st and 2nd timothy relate to us about being stumbling blocks for our brothers and for non believers.
A) In funding Pullman’s work we are communicating that we enjoyed it and support it. It’s a trade; we pay him to supply us with that content.
This argument is the same ethical principle as Christians and alcohol.
While it is permissible, to drink, drunkenness is a sin.
SO the problem is threefold. And only if it passes these three rules it allows us to do it.
-It does not affect our testimony (past alcoholism, friends who are younger, weaker brother argument)
-It is legal. (Obeying authority)
- It is glorifying to God”
The previous text is one person's opinion on how Christians should approach the controversial film "The Golden Compass".
What a tricky scenario to be in. On one hand, a “good” Christian does not want to support the anti-God, atheistic material because it might affect his testimony. On the other hand, boycotting the movie, for whatever the reason, has him written off as a crazy fundamentalist, which seems equally damaging to this said testimony. What is the right thing to do?
According to this person’s perspective, there are 3 rules that determine whether or not something is “ok”
1.) It does not affect our outward testimony
2.) It is not illegal
3.) It is glorifying to God
Though simple as it sounds, two of these rules are ineffective, leaving one of these rules as being the sole determiner of whether or not something is the “right” thing to do.
Our outward testimony: to Catch a Stumbler
This has become one of Christianity’s great clichés. What exactly is a “testimony” and how can we make others “stumble”? For many, a testimony is a public profession of their faith or religious experience. For the legal system, testimony is a written or oral statement used as evidence to give in court. In either case, it is proof of something. The “proof” is some outward indication for others to see and come to the same conclusion. Though James 2:14 cautions us about “faith without works” is the overwhelming principle in the Bible for Christians to follow, “Be careful of what you do and how it will reflect on others?”
One of the most important verses in the Bible is found in 1 Samuel 16, “Looks aren't everything. Don't be impressed with his looks and stature. I've already eliminated him. GOD judges persons differently than humans do. Men and women look at the face; GOD looks into the heart." These words are taken straight from God. In Matthew 23, Jesus often laments the Pharisees and their condition. They have cleaned and polished the outside of their cup, but the inside is full of maggots and rot. They are like an elaborate sarcophagus; beautifully decorated on the outside, but on the inside, nothing but death and lifelessness. The truth that is to be gleaned from this is that outward appearance means very little to God. Jesus instead emphasizes in John 13:35, “This is how everyone will recognize that you are my disciples – when they see the love you have for each other”. Our internal motivations are what matter the most to God.
This business of making a weaker person stumble is very perplexing to me. I believe the person meant to reference chapters in Romans, not the books of Timothy, when alluding to being a “stumbling block” to others. To believe that we have the capability of making others stumble in their walk is to believe in an external locus of control. We can’t accept the blame for much of our wrong doing, because there are cases where others “made” us do it. Weak people believe that they are not in control of their choices, and to promote this belief of having the power to make others stumble perpetuates weak Christianity. God is a God of options. Though people may be tempted, and we may be instruments of temptation to others, God does not just let people blindly fall into temptation. We are told that God provides a means of escape with every tempting scenario. God is a being of free choice and free will. Nothing forces God to do anything. We, being made in the image of God, have this freedom of choice. God many times is seen as giving man options. Deuteronomy 30:19 is one of my favorite verses to echo this point, God says, “I place before you Life and Death, Blessing and Curse. Choose Life…” Interestingly enough, Jesus is referenced as being a type of “stumbling block” to others in 1 Peter 2:8, “To you who trust him, he's a Stone to be proud of, but to those who refuse to trust him…They trip and fall because they refuse to obey, as they were destined to do.”
If it’s not against the Law, it’s not against the Lord
If something is not illegal, does that automatically imply that it is “right”? Another way to look at it is this, if something is illegal, does that automatically imply that it is “wrong”? Let’s think of some examples that may disprove this initial obvious truth.
People every day meet in secret underground churches to worship God, even though it is illegal to do so.
Is this right?
People hid Jews in their homes during the Holocaust even though it was illegal.
Was that right?
To believe that if it is not illegal, it is ok limits God – and coincidentally our capacity to serve God – by the narrow constraints of the law.
Paul reminds us of an important thought in Romans 4-10: “Moses wrote that anyone who insists on using the law code to live right before God soon discovers it's not so easy—every detail of life regulated by fine print! But trusting God to shape the right living in us is a different story…It's the word of faith that welcomes God to go to work and set things right for us. That's it. You're not "doing" anything; you're simply calling out to God, trusting him to do it for you. That's salvation. With your whole being you embrace God setting things right, and then you say it, right out loud: ‘God has set everything right between him and me!’ ” Even more important to realize is what Paul says in Galatians 5:18, “If you are lead by the Spirit, no law can touch you.”
We have to be careful that we don’t limit God to just what the Bible “says” (whatever that means), because to do that essentially means we are “killing God” as the characters do in this controversial film. The Bible is nothing but neutral words on a page, capable of saying anything and everything a person would wish it to – but not on its own. The Bible is nothing new to us, but its’ spirit is newly heard. God is still speaking. Many of us Christians have fallen into a path of idolatry. No, we’re not worshiping a golden calf or Baal, but we are worshiping the Bible and the Church. Both of these have important roles, but neither of them was meant to take the place of God. They are meant to point back to the one it is all about!
My understanding of God is based strictly on the sense that while God sent Jesus to die for everyone, it is not enough to believe that fact. I must believe it on a more personal, individual level. Jesus died for me. The focus is, once again, brought back to the individual, not the masses. God’s relationship with me is all that matters. God’s relationship with others does not apply to me. We humans, each being completely different from one another, could not possibly relate to God in the same way, because none of us are the same person. We find ourselves in the same condition – lost and in need of something bigger than ourselves to save us – but it is an individual experience that we cannot compare equally with one another. We are God’s sheep, but we were never called to ignorantly or blindly follow. If we accept that God died for us all – individually, and believe that God longs for a personal and individual relationship with us, we must be careful that we not try to project that which is our special connection with God as being the only way one can relate to God.
Facts or Faith: Lead me and I will follow
All of this comes down to one single element: Faith. Faith is a terrifying experience for us. We long for categorization – left, right; in, out; good, bad; black, white. However, so few things that matter in this world are simply deduced to this. Faith is the ability to wade out all that is grey in life, knowing that God is there in that grey with you. It is my belief that there is absolute truth, and since each of us is related to God on the level of the individual – not the group, many times this “absolute truth” is relative. It stands to reason that since our relationship with God is not a collective relationship, but a personal one, there are going to be individual – not collective- obstacles in this relationship, and individual boundaries that will have to be maintained. Paul alludes to this in Romans 14:5 “ One person thinks that some days should be set aside as holy and another thinks that each day is pretty much like any other. There are good reasons either way. So, each person is free to follow the convictions of conscience. What's important in all this is that if you keep a holy day, keep it for God's sake; if you eat meat, eat it to the glory of God and thank God for prime rib; if you're a vegetarian, eat vegetables to the glory of God and thank God for broccoli. None of us are permitted to insist on our own way in these matters. It's God we are answerable to—all the way from life to death and everything in between—not each other."
The person who wrote the introductory statement about how to know whether or not it is ok to do something is mistaken in all of the guidelines with the exception of one key element: “It is glorifying to God”. Unfortunately, that direction is extremely vague. What brings God glory? Cain thought bringing God produce from his farm would bring God glory, but God did not accept it. Again, it all comes down to the individual’s motivations, not the outward acts. And unless we, as the individual, are aware of who or what is motivating us, and how that affects our personal relationship with God, it will be hit or miss.
So how, then, are we to approach an issue such as "Should I, as a Christian, see the Golden Compass?"
There are three things we must consider before making a decision, none of which are indicative of the ultimate "right" answer for everyone:
1.) What is motivating me to do this?
2.) By doing this, what would be the effect on my relationship with God?
3.) Taking 1 and 2 into account, can I, in good conscience, do this?
If you have to struggle with any or all of these steps, perhaps the answer is there and you are unwilling to see it.