Stepping into a different light

[missionarymiles]

This is my first time ever posting in a site like this. In my area of the world I am what is called an "M" or a missionary. I have been struggling with my own view of Scripture for some time and I like what I am finding here. This will need to be explored much more. MM

[keltic63]

Welcome!

I'm sure you'll find the grace you've been searching for........

[missionarymiles]

Keltic, thank you. I know I will. I would appreciate everyone's prayers. Yesterday was a big feast here that included sacrificing goats. I had a chance to visit a village and pray for a girl that had been hit with an "evil eye" and ended with a swelled jaw area. Then I visited another home and was asked if my religion has a sacrifice and I had a chance to tell them about one sacrifice on a cross.

All in all it was a good day.

Tonight I am spending my time searching for answers for myself. All in all, a good few days.

[Steven E. Webster]

Keltic, thank you. I know I will. I would appreciate everyone's prayers. Yesterday was a big feast here that included sacrificing goats. I had a chance to visit a village and pray for a girl that had been hit with an "evil eye" and ended with a swelled jaw area. Then I visited another home and was asked if my religion has a sacrifice and I had a chance to tell them about one sacrifice on a cross.

All in all it was a good day.

Tonight I am spending my time searching for answers for myself. All in all, a good few days.

Dear Missionary,
My brother is also a missionary. He works in Northwest Zambia as both a "Reverend" and as an agricultural technician. His main goal is to provide technical assistance to folks from a hunter-gatherer society who no longer have sufficient game and need to learn how to raise food from the agricultural resources that they potentially have.

I've heard my brother tell of the witchcraft/sorcery beliefs of these folks. I understand the real downside of this belief is that people are falsely accused of witchcraft and persecuted and even killed unjustly.

I sometimes wonder if charismatic/pentecostal Christianity doesn't make things worse because it also teaches a belief in the power of demons that is irrational and potentially reinforces African beliefs that really ought to be challenged.

It's a shame to replace one irrational religion with another.

Steven Webster

[antonyh]

Keltic, thank you. I know I will. I would appreciate everyone's prayers. Yesterday was a big feast here that included sacrificing goats. I had a chance to visit a village and pray for a girl that had been hit with an "evil eye" and ended with a swelled jaw area. Then I visited another home and was asked if my religion has a sacrifice and I had a chance to tell them about one sacrifice on a cross.

All in all it was a good day.

Tonight I am spending my time searching for answers for myself. All in all, a good few days.

Welcome. What sorts of answers are you searching for? What are the questions that you are asking?

And...what on earth is an "evil eye"?

[missionarymiles]

Anton, let me deal with the easy question first. The "evil eye" is basically a curse someone puts on you in many belief systems around the world. When someone looks at a pretty girl in a not so nice way, or when someone is envious of another, it is said that they gave them an "evil eye." Normally, the person is then sick or is injured because of the curse. While I agree with Steven that much of this is supersticion (sp), there is also a spiritual darkside to the whole thing. There are times when the power of the cross needs to stand agains the power of a present enemy. Steven, you are also correct that too much power should not be ascribed to demons, yet I believe they do exist (don't worry I don't think they make people gay, God does that.) :-)

Now back to the inquiry of Anton. I am a man in ministry, an evangelical ministry, and all my peers believe that being gay is agains the Bible. I have struggled with this question for along time and I praise the Lord that I am beginning to see some answers. I appreciate some of the studies I have found on the web about Scripture and homosexuals. It has helped me a great deal.

So my was question...

Does being gay mean you can't be a Christian? I believe this is being answered for me. I look forward to sharing a true message of love with some of my friends.

Do I have more questions? oh yeah!!!

[Pablo Rafael]

Hello MM,

Your story is very interesting. I hope that you will tell us more about your experiences. I once planned on becoming a missionary; in college I changed my focus from foreign missions to the educational ministry, and I have been in Christian education these many years since. (No need to mention HOW many.)

I think it is necessary to search for answers and to be willing to change our viewpoint on scripture. In searching is when God comes to us and changes our hearts.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[Zerbie]

MM,

Welcome! I don't disagree with you about the existence of the demonic but I believe that where many fundamentalists and especially charismatics and pentecostals go wrong is in focusing their attention on the demonic. "He who should not be named" and his realm are made more powerful and are glorified by our attention even when what we say is negative towards him. the way we fight the demonic is to draw our attention and that of other people to Jesus. When faced with the power of the demonic ... talk more about (and to) Jesus.

People, whether driving a car, riding a bike, or living spiritually, will steer toward whatever they are looking at. I learned this truth teaching my son to ride a bike. he kept running into the lamp post until we figured out that the reason was because he was AFRAID of running into the lamp post and couldn't take his eyes OFF the lamppost. And he steered toward what he was staring at. Moral of the story: Keep your eyes on Jesus at all times and pay no attention to the fiend behind the curtain.

U-dog

I'm not Christian Scientist, but I adore the quote of Mary Baker Eddy that says "Man walks in the direction towards which he looks."

Great reminder U-dog. Thanks. :)

[Steven E. Webster]

I'm not Christian Scientist, but I adore the quote of Mary Baker Eddy that says "Man walks in the direction towards which he looks."

Great reminder U-dog. Thanks. :)

It reminds me of a quote from Jesus, somehing like: "No one who puts his/[her] hand to the plow, and looks back is fit for the Kingdom of God."

The reason I like this is that I grew up on a farm. Alot of the agricultural allusions in Scripture make so much more sense if one has agricultural experience in one's background. When one begins to plow a field the first furrow one plows needs to be straight. One accomplishes this (whether driving a tractor or a horse or ox) by keeping one's eye focused on some distant landmark in front of you. If you keep looking behind you at the furrow you are plowing, it will go crooked in a hurry!

Steven Webster

[antonyh]

Anton, let me deal with the easy question first. The "evil eye" is basically a curse someone puts on you in many belief systems around the world. When someone looks at a pretty girl in a not so nice way, or when someone is envious of another, it is said that they gave them an "evil eye." Normally, the person is then sick or is injured because of the curse. While I agree with Steven that much of this is supersticion (sp), there is also a spiritual darkside to the whole thing. There are times when the power of the cross needs to stand agains the power of a present enemy. Steven, you are also correct that too much power should not be ascribed to demons, yet I believe they do exist (don't worry I don't think they make people gay, God does that.) :-)

Now back to the inquiry of Anton. I am a man in ministry, an evangelical ministry, and all my peers believe that being gay is agains the Bible. I have struggled with this question for along time and I praise the Lord that I am beginning to see some answers. I appreciate some of the studies I have found on the web about Scripture and homosexuals. It has helped me a great deal.

So my was question...

Does being gay mean you can't be a Christian? I believe this is being answered for me. I look forward to sharing a true message of love with some of my friends.

Do I have more questions? oh yeah!!!

I think it is amazing that we're talking to an Evangelical Christian missionary in Asia who seems to be coming out while driving the "evil eye" away with the cross of Jesus Christ. Amazing world indeed.

In my Assemblies of God Bible College days, I actually went to the Wycliffe Bible Translator camp for prospective translators out in California. Definitely some interesting times. I was never really able to transition into full time ministry because I was carrying this secret around in me (I liked to look at boys...a big no no).

I notice that you keep talking about the gay issue in very abstract terms. Can I ask, are you gay?

Know that God loves you and your ministry and really does not care about your sexual orientation...except to celebrate it with you. I really believe this. The church is not going to be nearly as accepting but we're working on them at Soulforce...well more like agitating in their front yard.

Peace Bro.

[missionarymiles]

Anton,
That is a question that my wife and I are laboring over right now. We both believe the answer is yes. What do we do from here? Don't know.

[keltic63]

Anton,
That is a question that my wife and I are laboring over right now. We both believe the answer is yes. What do we do from here? Don't know.

ahhh. how brave of you to answer that question as frankly as you did! You're in luck....in some ways. Many of us have been in straight marriages. One of us is still in a straight marriage with no desire to break that commitment to each other. No one here will tell you what you "must" do. Instead, I'm sure you'll hear what we have done, and how that affected everyone involved.

What I can tell you is this: there is hope for a healthy, happy life as a gay christian after coming out of the closet.

[antonyh]

Anton,
That is a question that my wife and I are laboring over right now. We both believe the answer is yes. What do we do from here? Don't know.

I agree with what Keltic and u-dog have said, that you need to find a solution that works for you. I came out after Seminary with the full understanding that it would destroy any possibility of being in the ministry. Why did I do it? For me it was about integrity and personhood. I wanted to be honest about who I was no matter how difficult things got (and they got very difficult). I also recognized that I needed companionship and that I was not cut out for celibacy. That "gamble" paid off and I'm in a relationship I cherish.

How all this works for someone in a marriage, I'd have to defer to people living in that experience. It strikes me that you have a very mature relationship with your wife if you are able to really work through this together.

You will be in our hearts and prayers as you struggle to find the right solution for you.

[keltic63]

How all this works for someone in a marriage, I'd have to defer to people living in that experience. It strikes me that you have a very mature relationship with your wife if you are able to really work through this together.

You will be in our hearts and prayers as you struggle to find the right solution for you.

I think that my marriage fell apart, and then I was able to explore my orientation. seeing a therapist really helped me understand that my being gay was not what destroyed my marriage. had things gone well, I might have lived my life as a straight man. but that's not how it played out. I admire those of you who have the support of your spouses as you explore who you really are. That must be love, if someone can help you discover your full potential, even as they are aware it may mean losing you as a spouse.

[antonyh]

had things gone well, I might have lived my life as a straight man. but that's not how it played out.

I'm did a double take on this statement. Are you saying that you could have stayed in the marriage and appeared "straight". It seems to me that your underlying sexual orientation would still be gay even if you were in the marriage.

[keltic63]

I'm did a double take on this statement. Are you saying that you could have stayed in the marriage and appeared "straight". It seems to me that your underlying sexual orientation would still be gay even if you were in the marriage.

Don't get me wrong. I'm gay. Have always been gay. I was living life as a straight man, and as far as I knew, that was as good as married life was going to get. I was "happily" married for about 3-5 years. I held on longer thinking that this was just how things were to be. Even then, I admired men, looked when I thought no one else was watching me, etc. I don't know that I would have lived life as a straight man, but had the marriage been in better shape, I might have. again, no regrets, just some melancholy this time of year around that issue for me. (the wedding anniversary is in Dec. )

[pnggrad79]

MM, I am curious as to how you have come to the conclusions that God made gay people. I happen to agree with you, but I am curious as to how you arrived at that conclusion. My sister is/was a missionary in Russia a few years ago. She and her husband are now working with the North American Mission Board (SBC). They are two of the biggest homophobes on the planet, and routinely pray for my "affliction" of lesbianism.

Anyway, welcome and I hope that your searching leads you to the truth. "If God is for us, who can be against us.":) Bless you!

[Zerbie]

Anton,
That is a question that my wife and I are laboring over right now. We both believe the answer is yes. What do we do from here? Don't know.

Hello Miles. Welcome. :) You have great courage to face these questions. It sounds like you have a supportive wife as you go through this - I hope so.
I've never been in a similar situation. Wishing you strength as you both go through the process. I hope whatever path you end up on brings you fulfillment and peace.

Feel free to pop in here and voice questions any time. Even if they seem like strange or silly or scary ones. Someone else may have a response that resonates with you, and helps in some way.
:pray::pray:

Best,
Zerbie

[BruceChris]

I find that I have great faith, in science among other things. I believe that God gave us science, or perhaps just helped us to find it a little at a time. God has created for us a vast universe, that is held together by forces and rules that we discover, a little at a time.

When science discoveres something that threatens some belief, some people say that - "Science is attacking religion". Nonesense. You Would think that that kind of thinking would have been left behind, in the time of Galelio and company.

In my church, the United Church of Christ, we have a slogan that we usually take as an article of faith: God is Still Speaking". And through the findings of science is one of the ways that God speaks to us. And there are many others.
__________________________________________________ ___________________

During the first few weeks of life, males and females are almost exactly alike. A process of differentiation, into either male or female, must take place. Very often we will get a Masculine Male Man, who is attracted to Feminine Female Women, and vice versa. But not always.

In the fields of genetics and embryology, we are still learning how that process takes place. When a person comes along who doesn't exactly fit into one of the two above catagories, we often have a G,L,B, or T. God created the process by which we are gender differentiated, just as God has made each of us.

I believe in a Christianity of Hope and Love, much more than one of fear and judgement. I believe that Jesus came to teach us when there is an apparent conflict between following the rules, or acting toward one another with love, that we should always practice love.

Often this breaks down to a choice between Love, and Fear. Love your neighbor as best you can, or else acting out of fear of the rules, and not acting lovingly, perhaps becoming judgmental of the other.


Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[BruceChris]

I do want to welcome you, and I hope that things will work themselves out for you, and that you can find good ways to be the person that God intended.

P&L, Bruce Chris

[Gennee]

Welcome to Soulforce, MM. It's wonderful to see that you want to delve deeper into the scripture. I wish that many more Christians felt the same way. I am working on a personal project about transgender, crossdressing and the bible. I pray that God will open up the word to you.

Gennee

:love::pray:

[missionarymiles]

Wow! I am truly blessed by the welcome you have all given. I must confess that I have started and restarted a reply three times now. My heart leaps at the idea of talking with people who understand. My wife is so supportive and we are on a journey together.

MM, I am curious as to how you have come to the conclusions that God made gay people.

I got frustrated with friends who have left the faith to pursue being gay and this pushed me to question if the rhetoric was right. I have always hated the elevation of homosexuality to the position of the ultimate sin, mainly because I felt so condemned by it. I also thought that the hypocrisy of preaching against one sin while letting so many others go as water under the bridge was horrible. This made me doubt the popular evangelical position on homosexuallity. I had left it as a subject undstudied until recently. I am beginning to see that Scripture does seem to say something else with a sound hermeneutic.

Thank you for being so kind. I look forward to interacting with you.

MM

[paul]

I got frustrated with friends who have left the faith to pursue being gay and this pushed me to question if the rhetoric was right. I have always hated the elevation of homosexuality to the position of the ultimate sin, mainly because I felt so condemned by it. I also thought that the hypocrisy of preaching against one sin while letting so many others go as water under the bridge was horrible. This made me doubt the popular evangelical position on homosexuallity. I had left it as a subject undstudied until recently. I am beginning to see that Scripture does seem to say something else with a sound hermeneutic.

Thank you for being so kind. I look forward to interacting with you.

MM

MM,

Welcome. So nice to have you among us. Sorry I am so late in welcoming you, I see many have already...but then, you'll discover many wonderful people here.

I'm so glad to hear your wife is a loving and understanding partner in your live...hopefully that will make your journey better.

I was struck by your observation that, in many circles, homosexuality is elevated " to the position of the ultimate sin." I had been thinking of that very thing this morning. I was wondering, will there be any overweight people in heaven? Given the reasoning of some, as regards gays, and since gluttony is on the same list as homosexuality one has to wonder if Jerry made it to heaven.

Anyway, a hearty welcome to you. I am glad you are here.
paul

[antonyh]

I have always hated the elevation of homosexuality to the position of the ultimate sin, mainly because I felt so condemned by it. I also thought that the hypocrisy of preaching against one sin while letting so many others go as water under the bridge was horrible. This made me doubt the popular evangelical position on homosexuallity. I had left it as a subject undstudied until recently. I am beginning to see that Scripture does seem to say something else with a sound hermeneutic.

I would like to recommend a book to you:

Martti Nissinen. Homeoeroticism In The Biblical World: A Historical Perspective.

You can read the book over at Google Books:
http://books.google.com/books?id=-sHSNPG85tUC&dq=Martti+Nissinen&hl=en&prev=http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Martti+Nissinen&btnG=Google+Search&sa=X&oi=print&ct=result&cd=1&cad=author-navigational

Nissinen is Reader in Old Testament Studies at the University of Helsinki and Senior Researcher of the Finnish Academy.

I really appreciate judicious Biblical scholarship rooted in the social, historical and literary contexts of the Bible. This book is it.

I also recently discovered a paper titled "A Biblical Argument for the Acceptance of Homosexuality by the Christian Church". I have not read it but it looks like an interesting read.

http://people.csail.mit.edu/bpadams/blog/docs/BiblicalJustHomosex.pdf

[pnggrad79]

MM,
The way my father, a conservative Baptist lay preacher, explained it was he told me that some sins were worse than others, including homosexuality. So I countered with the fact that we eat bacon, which is not kosher, and we charge interest, which is considered unkosher. He said that didn't count. I wanted to say, "And God told you it didn't count?" So I said, so I guess we are lifting particular sins out of the Bible and arbitrarily saying what is an abomination and what is not, when all of Leviticus says all of it is.

The last time I checked, Leviticus was a part of a Holiness Code, written for the Israelites for the express purpose of keeping them separate and clean when surrounded by idolatrous and hedonistic people (much like they still are). And the last time I checked, Jesus himself said that all of the law and all of the prophets were summed up in ,"Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul and all your mind, and love your neighbor as yourself." Maybe there is some hidden condemnation of homosexuals in there, but I don't see it.

Thanks MM for your observations and I hope that by discourse with fellow SFers, you will become a light in the darkness to the community that has disowned and thrown us out. Thank you.:)

[HarmlessEccentric]

Hi! Like a lot of people here, I'm a gay person who was a lifelong evangelical Christian. I've had to re-examine much of what I thought I knew about God through my process of coming out, and it was incredibly difficult at times, but I think that having to seriously question has made my faith in God much stronger and my understanding of God much richer.

For me, exploring what it means to be a gay Christian through books and internet resources was a big part of my journey; just discovering that there are other ways to look at the world and the Bible than the way I knew helped me see the possibility of living my life in an honest way.

[Jennifer5]

Welcome! :)