Local Homophobia

[SolInvictus]

Hello everyone,
events in the local community, a very conservative area, is continuing its propaganda against the LGBT community. Citing that gays try to "convert" others, such as kids (which we all know is untrue).

This saddens and angers me. Dr. King said "we must fight hate with aggressive love." Yet, how do we fight ignorance and hatred? Sorry if this is too much of a sensitive topic, but it just distrurbs me that people believe such things... A local conservative pastor said "they go for the young ones."
Despite overwhelming evidence that most pedophiles are heterosexual, how does this nonsense continue?

Last year, a local deaf gay man was murdered just for being gay. Luckily, the murderers were sent to life in prison.

How can this injustice be fought? How can people be educated? How can the lies of the Religious Right be exposed?

[Zerbie]

I think you're asking what's on everyone's mind here. While the topic is "sensitive" this is also what the forum is for, right?

I've been wondering the same questions my whole life. I have spent years waiting for someone to tell me an answer and how to go about 'changing things.' For me, it's time to take my own initiative and, whenever relevant to the conversation, dialogue about these issues with others.

The difficulty is when you encounter someone whose anti-gay views are so set in stone they refuse to even hear what anyone else says. Imo there is nothing to be done with such people. Our attention needs to be on the large silent middle ground of people who probably have ambivalent thoughts/feelings about LGBTs and patiently introduce them to the issues and arguments. Unfortunately, doing that takes a lifetime, and with all the anti-gay politicking goin on, its time we haven't got.

[SolInvictus]

Thank you for responding Zerbie, and I like your answer. Good strategy, and yes, we must not waste time in getting equal rights. Thanks again - great advice.

[Catt of the Garage]

It seems to me that the only way to combat this kind of thing is by the non-violent protest - obviously most people here will believe that or they wouldn't be here - but it's not just as simple as that. Sadly gay people face the same challenge that hated and downtrodden groups only have - in order to be accepted as normal, you have to be better than normal. Most people in society will not wake up to the fact that any gay individuals is "as good as them" - as moral, as upright, as caring, as honest - until they see, repeatedly, evidence of gay people being more moral, more upright, more caring, more honest than the average. It's not right or fair and it will be a slow process but in the case of a lot of people, that's probably all that will work.

But in the meantime, is needed is for more people in the straight community to stand up and blow the whistle on prejudice and hatred. I think prayer is needed that people in the mainstream churches particularly, people who are not gay themselves, even some of those who still have moral reservations regarding homosexuality, to stand up and say, "No! these people are my brothers and sisters! I will not tolerate hatred. I will not listen to distortions of the gospel. I will not stand by while they are rejected by their families and ostracised by the church". If only a few do it they risk ostracism themselves but if enough straight people stand up for their LGBT brothers and sisters, attitudes may start to change.

[keltic63]

I think that I'm fortunate in that I haven't faced blatant hatred for being out. One of the things I feared most while I was in the closet was that I would be outted and that everyone, including those whom I loved, would hate me. I ended up in therapy with an eating disorder (thanks to the hatred I had for myself) about a year before I came out, and the outting wasn't really my choice, I was outted. What I found at that point was an acceptance and love from people that I thought would never embrace me as a gay man.
Now, about 2 years later, I find that I can insert relevant information into conversations. I don't get on the soapbox, but I do talk about how discrimination hurts me, and others, and ultimately our entire community, not just LGBT. Sometimes the conversation doesn't take off, and some times it does, but I always have the feeling that I may have given the person something to think about. and if you can get people to start thinking, that's a good thing, right?

[SolInvictus]

Good insight. Yes, nonviolence is the necessary way to go, and perhaps since we know how it feels to be discriminated against; we can use that to help others too.

[Big-Cheese]

Moving on and leaving the forum
God Bless

[kara speltz]

[QUOTE=Zerbie]I think you're asking what's on everyone's mind here. While the topic is "sensitive" this is also what the forum is for, right?

I've been wondering the same questions my whole life. I have spent years waiting for someone to tell me an answer and how to go about 'changing things.' For me, it's time to take my own initiative and, whenever relevant to the conversation, dialogue about these issues with others.

Gandhi says it better than anyone. "We must become the change we seek." The answer is clear though sometimes difficult. We must not be afraid to come out to people to let them get to know us as human beings that they care for and respect. If we are unashamed and loving, it will begin to change other people around us. There's a wonderful story about Lewis Smedes a well know bible expert who supposedly used to say that AIDS was God's curse on gays. Then friends of his starting dying of AIDS and he knew they were good loving faithful people. He was forced to change his views and ended up doing a fabulout video for Soulforce. So my answer is, "become the change we seek." Kara

[Catt of the Garage]

Just a thought on this - I have recently been reading the Quakers' statements on gay marriage, and was unaware until the other day that they have been performing gay marriages for 20 years now. I know that carries a lot of weight with me, as I have a lot of respect for the Quakers, seeing them as honest, thoughtful and truly godly. Just that one fact may carry a great deal of weight with many Christians, and if you can get people to read their statements on the matter (search Google for "quaker gay marriage" to find documents published by the Society).

What impressed me most was that unlike some resolutions passed by denominations on gay marriage, which you could see as the church bowing to social pressure rather than truly following its convictions (this is what puts a lot of opponents off I think), the Quaker statements make it clear that they reached their position through prayer, consideration and humble dialogue with their gay members, who it seems they never considered excluding. They also passed their resolution before this was really a "hot issue" with most churches, indicating that they were not merely "going with the flow". That could go a long way to making people who have a fixed position on the issue start to really think.

Of course, it will not do much for those whose faith identity is so rooted in their own denomination that they cannot accept wisdom from a group with differing worship practices and organisational philosophy from their own (I'm sure there are Christians out there who consider the Quakers "dodgy"). But that's another argument entirely.

[keltic63]

Of course, it will not do much for those whose faith identity is so rooted in their own denomination that they cannot accept wisdom from a group with differing worship practices and organisational philosophy from their own (I'm sure there are Christians out there who consider the Quakers "dodgy"). But that's another argument entirely.

That is what I was thinking as I started reading your post. My dad is a fundamentalist/charismatic. I remember him saying some things about Quakers that demonstrated he doesn't have any respect for them as far as their Christianity is concerned. I wouldn't be able to quote any Quaker writings to my dad because he wouldn't find them credible.

[Catt of the Garage]

That's a bit of a bummer then.

Hmm.

[keltic63]

That's a bit of a bummer then.

Hmm.

but it is what makes our mission so difficult. so many fundamentalists choose to believe what they are told to believe. if it doesn't come from a fundi pulpit, it can't be true. So how do we present fundies with the truth we know about ourselves when the only word they trust comes from a hierarchy so set on destroying us?
my dad isn't quite that bad, there are times that I can reach him, get him to think. When I came out to him, he was very loving and said some very positive things that proved he has thought some of this through. He doesn't always go with that line of thinking, but at least I know how he feels, and I know he loves me.

[SolInvictus]

Hey Steve, our dad's seem to share things in common: fundamentalist beliefs.
My dad belongs to this denomination:
www.christianunion.com

It is fundamentalist and gays are not the only group marginalized in this denom., but women are regarded as second-class citizens. I'm so Glad I found the UCC... Its been liberating.

[keltic63]

Yes, Josh, I've noticed a similarity in our experiences. I've had many conversations about religion with my dad. I was a religious studies minor in college. most of those conversations were civil arguments, but we both know where we stand on issues. I also know that my dad is sincere in his beliefs and doesn't accept every word that is handed down from his denomination. and mostly, I think he stays in the denomination out of fear; fear that they might be right and he could be wrong.
I found my freedom by worshipping with the Disciples of Christ (Christian Church).

[SolInvictus]

Well, unfortunatly, my dad is the local pastor I mentioned. He believes all gays are "perverted pedophiles," yet not realizing his son is gay. Admittedly, I'm afraid to "come out" to him.

Great you found the Disciples of Christ! The UCC church I attend is partnered w/ a local Disciples of Christ church. They are both great denominations.

God Bless You,
Josh

[Jamie McDaniel]

A local conservative pastor said "they go for the young ones."
Well, unfortunatly, my dad is the local pastor I mentioned. He believes all gays are "perverted pedophiles," yet not realizing his son is gay.

That's tough. I'll say a prayer for your dad, Josh, that he might have a Damascus Road experience.

What about the rest of your family? Do you have any support from other relatives?

[Jamie McDaniel]

I know that carries a lot of weight with me, as I have a lot of respect for the Quakers, seeing them as honest, thoughtful and truly godly.
Regarding my own family and my involvement with Soulforce, my parents made a step forward towards acceptance once they heard from voices that carried weight with them. They've sometimes slipped a few steps back, I suppose, since the anti-gay rhetoric is everywhere. But I remember telling my Dad that civil rights heroes from the 50's and 60's are involved in Soulforce. And he was like, "Ok, but they are just condemning the violence against gay people, right?"

I replied, "No, they are for full equality, marriage, adoption, and everything."

I could see that created what some Soulforce folks refer to as "cognitive dissonance."

cognitive dissonance - a state of psychological conflict or anxiety resulting from a contradiction between a person’s simultaneously held beliefs or attitudes
Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2004. © 1993-2003 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Here is a good resource for quotes:

MLK_Day_handout.pdf (http://www.soulforce.org/pdf/MLK_Day_handout.pdf)

[SolInvictus]

Thank You, Jamie. Yes, I have support from my mom & stepdad & the UCC church I attend (ohucc.net). I just have to be closeted primarily due to the homophobia that is common in this area.

I'll look at that information - thanks again & God Bless You.

[Catt of the Garage]

"Cognitive dissonance" sounds like what goes on in my head a lot of the time...

That leaflet is brilliant. I think that would go a long way with a lot of people.

As a recent straight convert to the support of gay rights, I'm musing on the things which have made the most difference to me as I've been wrestling with this issue over the last few months, and I'll share them with you, in case it helps when discussing with others:

1. It all started with a sense of justice ("I don't see what's so wrong with it"). That was what prodded me, after a searching conversation on my guinea pig forum (it's a garrulous place!) made me realise that my half-held views on homosexuality didn't mesh with my own sense of justice. That had more effect on me than any amount of rhetoric (on either side) would have.

2. I then discovered there were a lot of very compelling Biblical arguments in favour of homosexuality as an aspect of God's creation, and sound analyses of the texts used to condemn it (esp. the one on truthsetsfree.net). I discovered my own Biblical knowledge on the subject was patchy at best. Sometimes perhaps it's a good idea to take the Bible back to the bashers - though there is always the problem of those who revere the KJV not wanting to listen to arguments based on questionable translations, as most of these are. "It's in the Bible so that's the way it is!" - even if the word "Homosexual" never existed in Aramaic or Greek.

2. The discovery that there were people who honestly and prayerfully held the belief that their homosexuality was totally compatible with their faith as a Christian - and that they were not all theological liberals - made a difference, as I had had a vague view that in order to see practicing homosexuality as compatible with Christianity, you had to "remould" your Christianity first. It became clear that was not true. You just had to have an open, thoughtful view of issues, which I was happy with. Of course, many are not.

3. When I come across statements from people who are not themselves gay, and therefore have no "vested interest" in the issue, proclaiming the importance of equal rights for LGBT people, that has had a big impact. Eg. the Quakers, or the activists who speak in the above leaflet. That shatters the concept of the "radical gay agenda", as if people who are straight are still moved to speak out, it becomes clear that this is an issue of objective justice, instead of, as some make out, an issue of one minority pressure group seeking world domination.

4. I have been very moved and distressed by accounts of the violence and intimidation that many LGBT people encounter in their lives, by the horrific effects of some "ex-gay" ministries, by accounts of rejection by the church and family. I know that these things do not logically bear on the question of the legalisation of gay marriage, but as a human being, when I look at both sides in an argument and I see one side acting inhumanly towards the other, that's not the side I want to be on.

I don't know if that's helpful, but my thinking is that some of the things which worked on me, might work on others.

Edit to add my good wishes to you, SolInvictus, I hope things get better, and will be thinking of you in my prayers

[Zerbie]

Cat, that's VERY helpful! Those are all the things that would logically make sense to any thinking person who is open enough to look at the questions LGBT issues bring up. In particular, your point about non-gay people speaking out is important. Ultimately, that is who is going to tip the battle, straight "allies." The group I'm most involved with now has a LOT of straight people in leadership positions. Yet it's perceived as "the gay group" for the most part, because we are fighting an anti-gay ballot initiative.

In particular, non-gay clergy who speak out in support of civil rights are so necessary. There is a group out here called No Longer Silent, Clergy for Justice. I don't remember their website, but you can find it by a google search.

Thanks for sharing your observations Cat! They are VERY helpful.

[SolInvictus]

Thanks Cat - appreciate your prayers & advice.

[Big-Cheese]

Moving on. Thanks for you friendship.
Blessings to you all

[SolInvictus]

Tonight was interesting... I visited my dad's church & it felt like he & a few others were trying to set me up w/ a "tomboy" girl. Honestly, I suspect she's a lesbian as she hasn't ever had a boyfriend to my knowledge. Anyway, being gay myself, I think their suspicions may be rising of my orientation & possibly of this girl as both of us are private people & single.

Oh well, just thinking out loud...

Blessings to All.

[SolInvictus]

Thank you Big Cheese for commenting. True, things could always be worse, & you put things into perspective. Indeed, the LGBT community in the Middle East have been sentenced to prison, castrated, or put to death for simply being themselves... (This was illustrated in the documentary: Dangerous Living).

[Catt of the Garage]

Erk.

Thinking about Big Cheese's comment. It reminds me of Eastern Europe - for so many years they were oppressed under communism, and the ethnic tensions which were rife before seemed to just disappear. But they hadn't disappeared, they were just frozen while the people contended with a bigger threat. Following the revolutions, a lot of these countries destabilised, in a kind of "Right, where were we?" wave of reawakened violence.

Solinvictus - Oh, dear. Matchmaking. The joys. Was your mother involved by any chance? Mothers seem to do that, it's instinctive, I think.

Don't be too quick to assume the girl is a lesbian - I was a tomboy (still am a bit) and did not have a boyfriend for years, but I'm not a lesbian. It just took me a while to find the right bloke, and I'm a one-man-woman, so I didn't have much interest in random relationships. I have a friend who is a lesbian and is a far more feminine dresser than I am. The stereotypes often don't fit.

[SolInvictus]

Thanks Cat, I needed a reality check. Indeed, most people assume I am as conservative as my dad in public or never met me; indeed, stereotypes aren't always true. You are right & thanks - I shouldn't let myself fall under such misconceptions. I think my aunt had something to do w/ it; she likes to match couples...

[Dotti Berry]

The questions being asked are "How can this injustice be fought? How can people be educated? How can the lies of the Religious Right be exposed?"

In answer to "What can we do?" I offer the following. We can look at ourselves as the solution, rather than hoping others will change. Our own transformtion is the basic tenent of soul force principles, and yet we continue to focus on what others are doing, with them being "the problem." I feel it is time we applied the same "criteria" to our own community that we do to others who we feel are not welcoming and inclusive of us. Why do we ask more of others than we do of ourselves? We ask others to take risks that many of our own community are unwilling to take. It is time to call our own GLBTA (yes allies too) community into accountability in the same way that we are calling society to accountability.

What I can tell you that we continue to learn from our journey, Gay Into Straight America, is that the power lies with US, not THEM. Our "fear of their fear" is larger within our GLBTA community (yes, allies too) than the "fear in them about us" that actually exits. We have not yet encountered one situation where people are "against" us. It is time for us to accept that the people to whom we focus so much energy on, although very vocal, are STILL a minority. If we mobilize our GLBT community in addition to the movable middle, we constitute a vocal majority, not a vocal minority. Too many of our potential vocal majority (including our own GLBT community) continue to remain silent and complacent, content to point fingers at "others," those we feel are the conservative bigots. Misguided energy folks! Roby and I feel that most of the people in our community continue to focus in the wrong direction for the solution. Many of us are looking "out there" to others for our empowerment and freedom, when the freedom we are searching for is available "within." When we accept 100% responsibility for creating the life we want, then we will shift and respond in new ways. That in turn will create the shifts in others that we are seeking. It won't happen the other way around. History shows that the courts usually lead the way, and that society lags behind. We are part of that society that lags behind. Let us each be a force to move it forward. Take a look at the article I wrote for the Soulforce website, and remember to "Stand UP Speak OUT...WE are the solution."

[SolInvictus]

Wow - thank you & a great response. I'll check out the article soon.

[Jennifer5]

It may not seem like it but I know that people can be changed... my mom had become friends with this guy online, he ended up to be very anti-gay, he would even meet up with friends from work and make fun of gays. But he was already really good friends with my mom and she said either you respect my point of view or this is good bye. This was a little bit of a wake up call for him, they went through a lot of times where they wouldn't talk to each other. Then he heard her talking to him about my 'uncle' who has AIDS and how she was taking him to the hospital he was really sick... over time he began to realize how rude he was being. Then she told him to go and listen to the song "What it's like" by everlast... (it's a good song if you haven't heard it) ... he payed attention to what she said, he met my uncle... and spent a little time with our family. When he went back home where they were making fun of gay people and when they asked him why he wasn't joining them... he said "It just doesn't seem funny anymore"... since this his life has changed he doesn't make fun of people like that anymore... now before judging he'll find out what's really happening.