Conflict

[pnggrad79]

I know I will get a new perspective on this because right now I need one. The situation is this- My wife's family accepts us to a point. To her mom and dad, it is technically ok and they let us come to family gatherings, etc, but whatever you do don't embarrass them by declaring our relationship to anyone else they might know-for instance, extended family and friends. So when we are together at family functions where extended family and friends are present, I am introduced as "the family friend". My wife just stands there beside me and says nothing to indicate any different. For that moment in time, I am what her mother says I am-the family friend.

It crawls all over me.:mad: My wife and I have been round and round about this. My contention is that I can't control what her parents call me or think of me. I just would like for my wife to say just once,"Mom, she is not the family friend, she is my wife." If I were a man, this wouldn't be an issue. I wouldn't be something she and her mother would have to hide. But since I am not, and we are lesbians, her mother accepts us privately but not publicly. My wife thinks I should be happy with marginal acceptance versus nothing at all, like it is with my parents. We don't even have a relationship. They said I was welcome but not my wife. To me that is not fair. My sisters and their husbands are invited, and I feel like I should be able to come with my wife.

This has been going on for years now. I feel backed into a corner where I have to accept being "the family friend" and shut up about it, or me and my wife just go to our respective families for the holidays. I don't want to do that. We belong together and our families should accept us without any reservation.

She says that my standing on principle is not reality and I can fight this fight alone. She doesn't care, and is not willing to alienate her parents for a principle. (I don't think she would alienate her parents-they want a relationship with their daughter and since the "appendage" comes with her, they more or less tolerate me. ) She contends that I should be content with being called something I am not, go along with the charade, and not cause waves by insisting on things like fairness and equality.

I said if MLK, Jr. and Gandhi thought that, where would we be? If MLK told African Americans to just be content with not being able to vote, or not being able to sit at the same lunch counter, or not being able to ride a bus home from work, to always defer to white people, we would have no civil rights. MLK stood on the principle of equality and fairness.

She said that was not her calling and if activists wanted to protest against unfair treatment and inequality let them, but it wasn't her fight. She said I could go and protest and "bully" people as she calls it, but she had other things to do and it just wasn't important to her. I said it was important enough to marry me in Canada. It was important enough to buy a house and make a life with me. All the neighbors know we are gay. Yet, in front of her mother, she says nothing. It is like for a moment in time, I am a bystander in this scene where she is 5 years old again and won't do anything to upset mommy. It is a freaky dynamic.

Bottom line-we are at a stalemate, and I feel like I am wrong to pursue this, to insist on being treated like her wife and not the family friend. She just wants me to sit down, shut up and not make a big deal about this. Let her mother relegate me to whatever position she wants, and just put up with it.

Any advice from you guys? I need to get out of this corner I feel like I am in. My wife is no help, but I am feeling kind of desperate.

[keltic63]

my guess is that the extended family knows, and that the charade is for her mother, who thinks she is fooling everyone else.

do you have a relationship with other members of the extended family? Is the only time you see any of these people at these large family gatherings? do you, or could you, spend time socializing with cousins, aunts & uncles, in more intimate settings or smaller groups? how often are you expected to shut up and play this role? is it once a year? twice?

I understand your anger. I've gone through some of that myself. I have a difficult time believing that the family is "buying" the family friend line. I started going to a family Christmas gathering with Scott a few years ago. I was introduced as the "friend" and I went along with it because Scott still had one foot in the closet. I had played at his cousin's wedding 6 months earlier, so I took her aside and asked what the family knew and how they would treat Scott. She said that half of them knew and didn't care and the other half would never get it, as in, they were clueless anyway. Everyone in his family accepts me as their own, and there never was a big introduction like "EVERYONE, THIS IS MY PARTNER....."

and you know, if you're off in a conversation with one of her aunts or cousins, and you just happen to let something slip......;)

[Zerbie]

Yeah, I think Dave's suggestion is quite smart. Because both your position and hers strike me as valid ways of handling the extended family situation - they aren't really close people in your everyday life, rather more like strangers. So I can see her point in letting it go to preserve her mother's comfort. As an activist, duh, of course I see your point! The problem is that you do not agree on the way to handle the heterocentrism coming from her mother. She says leave it alone, you say just spell it out for what it is. I agree, try going over this with a third party.

And can I just make an editorial comment? Damn! That makes me mad! :mad: That couples have to be burdened with stupidity like this thanks to homophobia! :mad: Sorry you are in this position, Png.

[antonyh]

PNG, it is significant that you mentioned MLK. My family have behaved like your family for years. Within the last year they have changed their approach and they welcome my partner and me into their home. Years ago I decided that I would take MLK's approach to the issue. I spoke the truth in love to them while not destroying our beloved community. The truth included, "I have a partner, and it is not going to change"; "My relationship is holy"; "You're forcing me into artificial choices between my partner and my family", etc.

The key here is the ability to speak the truth in love. I hear your frustration about not being able to introduce your partner as your partner. I side with you about how important this is, especially at family gatherings. You need to be able to introduce your wife as your partner. It may sting and cause waves at the precious family gatherings, but it is the only way to make progress.

Dave's idea about counseling may be a good one. Your wife seems to have comfort issues around her sexuality (understandable given society). In addition, she seems to have issues with her family. A psychologist I used to work with in Saint Louis, Missouri used to tell me all the time, "The two most important decisions anyone makes are to leave home physically and to leave home emotionally". The latter one is the difficult one.

Good luck with all of this. You'll be in my thoughts and prayers.

[pnggrad79]

I did schedule an appointment with a counselor for Friday.

keltic- I don't see these people except maybe twice a year(the extended family), her parents quite a bit more often. The issue is not whether they accept me or not. Some know. I told them. Or rather I confirmed when they asked. They were ok with it. Her cousin, who has been in law school, told me to get a medical power of attorney and a living will, so that in case something ever happened, my wife would have the final say not my parents. Anyway, yeah, they know, and it irks me to no end that even though they know, her mother likes to put on the facade of me being the family friend. Hell, I must be some friend, I keep hanging around her for some stupid reason.

zerbie- it makes me mad, too. I just feel stuck and depressed because I feel like she is choosing her parents over me. I want to run away and hide. I want to quit. I want to just tell her to either go marry a man and make her mother happy or defend me. She wants her cake and eat it too. I am her wife here at home. I am her wife at the store, at the mall, out to eat, paying bills, raising kids. But a magical transformation happens when we walk into her mother's house-she treats me like an infection, hardly talks to me, proceeds to hob nob with her parents and then rails me if I have the audacity to grab a book, and go hide in the corner somewhere. She wants me to perform for them. Make them like me. I don't care if they like me. I am me and if they don't like me, that is their problem. I have been in her life for 20 years. If they ain't got the clue by now, I ain't going nowhere. Why should I have to sing and dance just to get second class treatment. Even if I did have this sparkling personality, I would still get called the family friend. Why the hell should I put myself through the performance if I don't get anything in return?

Am I wrong? What is a compromise in this situation? Is there one to be found? I am so upset!!!!! And what hurts the most is I don't think she gives a damn! Just don't upset mommy. It's ok if I am upset, she can handle that. But God forbid mommy has to be uncomfortable. God forbid she has to amend her actions or be held accountable. But I sure as hell have to.

[NathanATX]

One thing i heard in what you wrote is that your wife has essentially given you permission to address the situation.

I would think about that. Write and rehearse a corrective statement.

Something you can say that isn't attacking mom.

Something kind and wise.

And the next time it comes up, speak up.

love,
Nate

[Emproph]

Well your wife obviously knows this upsets you. How would she feel if you just didn't go to her family functions. I don't think requesting that she understand your not wanting to subject yourself to what upsets you so much is too much to ask.

I realize it's probably more complicated than that, but a little absence once in a while might make her heart grow fonder for a little bit of "activism" on her part in this case.

Also, would her mother ever be willing to go to PFLAG? That might help her to be able to come out (as your mother in law...;)).

[pnggrad79]

Well your wife obviously knows this upsets you. How would she feel if you just didn't go to her family functions. I don't think requesting that she understand your not wanting to subject yourself to what upsets you so much is too much to ask.

I realize it's probably more complicated than that, but a little absence once in a while might make her heart grow fonder for a little bit of "activism" on her part in this case.

Also, would her mother ever be willing to go to PFLAG? That might help her to be able to come out (as your mother in law...;)).

My wife knows this upsets me and she doesn't care enough to do anything about it. If I say something to her mom, she will get upset that I offended her mom. If she says something to her mom, she is afraid that her mom will not love her anymore or some other such nonsense. It means more to her not to upset her mom than it does not to upset me. What can I do? All I can do is move on. If I stay stuck here, no good can come from it. She is bull-headed and stubborn and one of us has to bend.

The only thing I can do is just try to move past it, and the next time it happens, I just have to prepare myself not to react to the unfairness and the inequality. Hey, gay people deal with it everyday. I guess I am unreasonable to think that it will ever change. I just need to accept being a second class citizen in this country and in this family and know inside I am not.

[pnggrad79]

One thing i heard in what you wrote is that your wife has essentially given you permission to address the situation.

I would think about that. Write and rehearse a corrective statement.

Something you can say that isn't attacking mom.

Something kind and wise.

And the next time it comes up, speak up.

love,
Nate

My wife has given me nothing. She told me last night, it didn't matter and that if I wanted to fight this fight I would have to do it alone. She doesn't support me in this because she thinks I should just shut up about it and accept being labeled "family friend". It is easier to just take the abuse than to stand up and defend me to her mother. She doesn't want to make mom uncomfortable. She would rather it eat me up inside. I guess I know where her loyalties lie. And they ain't with me.

If I do speak up, I need some help in being diplomatic, kind, and wise, because all I really want to say is, "I am the family friend WITH BENEFITS" I know all that would do is tick my wife off, and although she seems to have free reign to tick me off , I can't do it to her.

[Zerbie]

zerbie- it makes me mad, too. I just feel stuck and depressed because I feel like she is choosing her parents over me.

Have you told her this?
Directly?

Sounds like this a compromise that you really cannot make. She may need to grow more into her own independent person around her family here and be the one to shift in position.

[pnggrad79]

Have you told her this?
Directly?

Sounds like this a compromise that you really cannot make. She may need to grow more into her own independent person around her family here and be the one to shift in position.

Zerbie, yes I did tell her that. She accused me of manipulating the situation to get what I wanted. She also said that I just needed to stop feeling depressed because she wasn't planning on doing anything to change the situation. She refuses to even talk to her mom about this. All I want is for her to defend me. She said I needed to give her something to defend.

I agree she needs to grow more independent of her parents but hell will freeze over before that happens. She doesn't see it as a problem. I see it as her choosing to please them over me. I live with her, and it doesn't seem to matter to her that this has bothered me for years now. In her mind I just need to get over it.

[pnggrad79]

An appointment for both of you? Because it won't help to go alone. the only thing you can do if you go to the counselor alone is decide to leave or to stuff your feelings and stay. You aren't broken and neither is your wife. what IS broken is your communication around this issue. The counselor can help you and your wife to fix whats broken but only if you're there together. If you don't do it , you are risking a lot.

Udog,
My wife thinks she is right and even if she isn't, she isn't going to do anything differently no matter what the consequences are for us. She said last night that I may be right to insist on equal treatment. But she isn't going to confront her mother and her mother certainly isn't going to stop referring to me as "family friend". Therefore, it is my problem. It may be our problem technically, but my wife has assigned the problem to me since I am the one with the issue about it. She basically washed her hands of it last night, said it wasn't her fight and that I was the one driving the wedge between us for making a big deal out of it.

So us both going to a counselor would be unproductive. I would feel ganged up on. What I am going for is simply to figure out if there is a way I can feel better about this. She says I just need to let it go. All she wants is peace and quiet at home and I have the nerve to upset that balance by insisting on fair treatment. She is pissed at me for not shutting up about it.

She doesn't want to hear me out on this. She thinks I am right, but that doesn't matter when it comes to Mommy Dearest. Right is not important. Keeping the peace is important at my expense.

I don't mean to slam my partner. I just wish that my feelings mattered.

[antonyh]

Remember that in all of this it is not your fault or your wife's fault that we live in a homophobic society. It has real distorting power in our lives and in our families. I think the most painful aspect of homophobia is when it causes an intimate partner to devalue your relationship with her own family. I was in a relationship like that and wrote an angry poem about it. Not a great poem, but it gets the point across.

Toxic Fears

I loved you
but you loved fear more.

You inhaled
the toxic fears that penetrate the air
and made them your lovers
instead of me.

I kissed you
but you turned your head
to embrace
the shame in your soul
and make dogma your lover
instead of me.

I lived with you
but you shut me out
to open
the front door to your oppressors
and make them your loved ones
instead of me.

It is going to require patience and understanding to navigate this. And I don't think there is an easy fix.

[Steven E. Webster]

Png,

I have some questions:

How has/does your marriage manifest itself? Did you get legally married (in Canada, for instance)? Do you wear rings? Do you own/share a home together? Are you raising children together?

I don't have any easy answers to your problem. I'm just wondering if being called a "family friend" by your mom-in-law would be such a big deal if it were obvious to people that you are more than a mere aquaintance--that you and her daughter are making a life together.

Are there other ways that your relationship is being denied or nullified or hidden besides the "family friend" label? Are there other issues?

I hear stories (and have experienced first hand) how getting legally married (in Canada, for instance) makes a big difference. Family, friends and co-workers treat you differently and you feel different yourself.

Right now, my biggest irritation is filling out forms that ask me whether I'm married or single. Last time I got one of those forms there was a sizable blank space after the words "married" and "single" and so I wrote "in Canada" after the word "married" and "in Wisconsin" after the word "single." (By the way, I'm wondering how other folks in this forum deal with those stupid married/single blanks on forms?)

I'm anxious to hear what Polly has to say about couple's counseling. I'm hoping a counselor would help both of you clarify your ideas and feelings without taking sides on any of the issues. I think that's what a good counselor would do. Maybe Polly and Udog might comment here on how one recognizes a good job of counseling.

Steven Webster

[Daniel]

Pnggrad- My heart goes out to you.

My hubby and I have been dealing with a similar issue for years now. Oh....the fights we would have about it.

Here's what I think.

You are damn right. Your partner needs to stand up for you, and by not doing so- is- defacto- 'choosing' her family over you.

I used to be the one in our relationship who asked my hubby to accompany me to family gatherings, were various family members would give him he cold shoulder etc etc. Bad manners to the max. Me? It took me a LONG time to realize the dysfunctional family dynamic I was playing into. Hey. I was used to it, so I didn't think my hubby's concerns were that big a deal. Not until he decided he wasn't going to go with me anymore.

My sense is that YOU are the one who is going to have to change matters. And yes- it may be tough- and your partner may be pissed as hell with you, but if you continue to let yourself be treated badly- well- that's what you're going to keep getting.

My hubby refused to go to gatherings when my siblings were present (my parent's - God bless them- have manners) until this year. It took two years for them to get the message. And I had to answer questions of 'why isn't Jonathan here' when asked. Answers which entailed me pausing for a few seconds....looking my sibling full in the face and saying something as simple as 'he's busy'. They got the message.

I had to learn to stand up for my guy. Plain and simple. (My less religiously conservative sliblings 'got it', while there is still one member of my family which my guy still refuses to see- and I respect that: my older missionary brother.) And if your gal can't do that- that's a serious concern. And I can tell you as plain as day that if this issue isn't dealt with, it is going to eat away at your relationship like acid. And if you are resenting your partner now, you will be soon enough. And that's no fun.

If you can- I would put the matter on the line. Drag you partner into couples counseling.

Know what the issue probably is for her? She thinks that her parents will reject her if she stands up for herself and you. Well....duh! She can't have it both ways! She's going to have to learn to stand up for herself and you.

It's about respect. Not love.

RESPECT.

You don't treat those you love disrespectfully.

[andrewlittle]

Udog,
My wife thinks she is right and even if she isn't, she isn't going to do anything differently no matter what the consequences are for us. She said last night that I may be right to insist on equal treatment. But she isn't going to confront her mother and her mother certainly isn't going to stop referring to me as "family friend". Therefore, it is my problem. It may be our problem technically, but my wife has assigned the problem to me since I am the one with the issue about it. She basically washed her hands of it last night, said it wasn't her fight and that I was the one driving the wedge between us for making a big deal out of it.

So us both going to a counselor would be unproductive. I would feel ganged up on. What I am going for is simply to figure out if there is a way I can feel better about this. She says I just need to let it go. All she wants is peace and quiet at home and I have the nerve to upset that balance by insisting on fair treatment. She is pissed at me for not shutting up about it.

She doesn't want to hear me out on this. She thinks I am right, but that doesn't matter when it comes to Mommy Dearest. Right is not important. Keeping the peace is important at my expense.

I don't mean to slam my partner. I just wish that my feelings mattered.

For what this is worth, dear heart, what you are experiencing is not unlike what many couples of any gender combination go through. The issue of you being a same-sex partner, while compicating the issue possibly, is not the root of this.

In reading what you have said about your wife and your mother-in-law, the family resemblance is uncanny, don't you think? Is not your wife's sense of comfort (read: avoidance of conflict) and conformity to family norms (read: stuck in a self-destructive pattern of self-denial even in the face of evidence saying it is unnecessary) just as ingrained as her mother's. There is a family dynamic at play here that is way deeper than her relationship with you. One small mental experiment would be to take your description of your mother-in-law, but substitute your wife's identity for mom, and then see if the description is still relatively accurate.

I have a difficult time believing this is isolated just to family situations. Doesn't it line up with your wife's lack of inclination to be an "activist"? That seems like a purely illogical dychotomy - floormat or activist - black or white, with no persection of shades of gray. I would imagine this flows through the various "families" of which you wife is a member.

Possibly a family systems counselor would work. In family systems, the counselor generally works with the least symptomatic family member, and despite what you say about your emotional state, you may be that person. There are familial patterns at play here, IMO, that you need to understand in order to comprehend reactions or change the way in which you apply stimulus. The family seeks homeostasis and whoever "pushes" the change is the one that will provide the rallying point against which all the other players will push back. That again would be you, which in that model reveals you are the least symptomatic.

This is a crude nutshell of an explanation, based on limited information, but a family systems approach may just be able to teach you how to apply non-violent resistance and pressure in the right directions - or help you decide if you want to be bothered in the first place.

What I don't here in this is where daddy lines up - is he even in the picture?

[rainbow7]

Udog,
My wife thinks she is right and even if she isn't, she isn't going to do anything differently no matter what the consequences are for us. She said last night that I may be right to insist on equal treatment. But she isn't going to confront her mother and her mother certainly isn't going to stop referring to me as "family friend". Therefore, it is my problem. It may be our problem technically, but my wife has assigned the problem to me since I am the one with the issue about it. She basically washed her hands of it last night, said it wasn't her fight and that I was the one driving the wedge between us for making a big deal out of it.

So us both going to a counselor would be unproductive. I would feel ganged up on. What I am going for is simply to figure out if there is a way I can feel better about this. She says I just need to let it go. All she wants is peace and quiet at home and I have the nerve to upset that balance by insisting on fair treatment. She is pissed at me for not shutting up about it.

She doesn't want to hear me out on this. She thinks I am right, but that doesn't matter when it comes to Mommy Dearest. Right is not important. Keeping the peace is important at my expense.

I don't mean to slam my partner. I just wish that my feelings mattered.

Your feelings DO matter, and so do hers. It is not the therapist's job to take sides......you each have your perspective and you each seem convinced that you are "right." A competent couples counselor can help you to hear each other through this impasse; to hear the feelings that are at the root of the broken communication, and to begin to understand and validate each other's perspectives. I believe that when we promise to share our lives with another person, one of the things we are promising is to keep trying to understand each other's experience and help our partner to understand our own experience. Sometimes even the best relationship needs someone to help with this process.

An investment in couples counseling is an investment in the present and future of your relationship. Research is clear that when only one partner participates in counseling, the chances for the relationship's survival decrease.

Couples therapy is hard work, but if you value your relationship, it is well worth the investment. There are many here who support you!

Polly

[pnggrad79]

Thank you all for your advice, support and concern. I spent yesterday in a really dark place emotionally, and I just didn't know how much of a relationship we had left after my wife and I had reached this impasse. Like I said in a previous post, I have been in her life for 20 years, 7 of those in a relationship, 3 of them married. Her family knows me, and has known me for all those years. It isn't like we are just getting to know each other. The difficulty is that her mother refuses to recognize that we are married and I suspect she hopes that my wife will one day realize this is a mistake, leave me, and go after a man.

Last night, she came home, sat down next to me and said, "I just got off the phone with mom, and told her that I wanted her to stop referring to you as the family friend. She is my wife and not just a friend." Her mom said something like she didn't recognize it as a marriage. My wife reminded her that we were married whether she recognized it or not. She said that from now on, if introductions were to be made, she would make them. I asked her how she would introduce me. She said, "As my wife or partner"

I asked her if her mom promptly threw her out of the family. She said no that she really overestimated her mother's reaction. I knew she had, but trying to convince her of that was a battle to say the least.

We are going over to her mom's house today and we will see how it goes. Her mom may not speak to me, I don't know. I do know that during the conversation she had with her mother, she said that her mom complained about a lot of petty stuff, like me not saying hello to her, or not helping in the kitchen. OH MY GOD!!! So now I have to walk on eggshells around this woman who obviously wears her feelings on her shoulder, and looks for things she doesn't like about me.

[Zerbie]

Thank you all for your advice, support and concern. I spent yesterday in a really dark place emotionally, and I just didn't know how much of a relationship we had left after my wife and I had reached this impasse. Like I said in a previous post, I have been in her life for 20 years, 7 of those in a relationship, 3 of them married. Her family knows me, and has known me for all those years. It isn't like we are just getting to know each other. The difficulty is that her mother refuses to recognize that we are married and I suspect she hopes that my wife will one day realize this is a mistake, leave me, and go after a man.

Last night, she came home, sat down next to me and said, "I just got off the phone with mom, and told her that I wanted her to stop referring to you as the family friend. She is my wife and not just a friend." Her mom said something like she didn't recognize it as a marriage. My wife reminded her that we were married whether she recognized it or not. She said that from now on, if introductions were to be made, she would make them. I asked her how she would introduce me. She said, "As my wife or partner"

I asked her if her mom promptly threw her out of the family. She said no that she really overestimated her mother's reaction. I knew she had, but trying to convince her of that was a battle to say the least.

We are going over to her mom's house today and we will see how it goes. Her mom may not speak to me, I don't know. I do know that during the conversation she had with her mother, she said that her mom complained about a lot of petty stuff, like me not saying hello to her, or not helping in the kitchen. OH MY GOD!!! So now I have to walk on eggshells around this woman who obviously wears her feelings on her shoulder, and looks for things she doesn't like about me.

WOW PNG your wife is one helluva fantastic woman!! She totally rose to the occasion and faced her huge fears of bucking her mother's expectation, to be an adult and respect you.

I'm so glad!
:)

[Emproph]

WOW PNG your wife is one helluva fantastic woman!! She totally rose to the occasion and faced her huge fears of bucking her mother's expectation, to be an adult and respect you.

I'm so glad!
:)

Yeah, I'd run with that sentiment for now. Not just with your wife but with her mom as well. It appears that you've just been given time.

When you mentioned the part about "not saying hello to her, or not helping in the kitchen," it didn't strike me immediately as petty (I don't doubt that it may have been), but the imagery I got when I read that was that on an emotional level, she didn't feel that you were "playing" the daughter-in-law role enough -- even on a basic level -- as far as the desire to engage in simple things enough for her to feel comfortable enough to be open about being your mother-in-law.

It's a roundabout to be sure, just something to consider.

At this point I almost get the impression you could have gone over your wife's head about this and taken it up directly with your mother-in-law and "won." (cool of head of course :cool:, but therein lies the challenge)

I think I'll stop projecting onto your relationships now... :D

[antonyh]

Wow, what a fantastic resolution! I'm proud of you and your wife.

[pnggrad79]

U dog,
What I mean by petty is this:
When we decided to sell our house, my wife convinced her mother to come help us clean out the cabinets and pack up stuff to sell in a garage sale. So she came and did a fantastic job, until she noticed that my 16 yo daughter went around and collected loose change she found on cabinet tops, the washing machine, etc. My wife's mother saw this as stealing, when my 16 yo saw it as cleaning up. So my wife's mother baited my daughter and left .63 on the coffee table, and within a couple of hours, my daughter picked it up, and put it in a jar she kept in the china closet. My wife's mother was outraged, and called my daughter over to her and accused her of stealing. My daughter was confused and asked what she stole? Her mother said 63 cents. My daughter started crying and insisted she was just cleaning up, and wouldn't admit stealing. So my wife's mother told my wife that my daughter was stealing and my wife asked my daughter to put the money back. So my daughter promptly got 63 cents out of the jar and put it back. That wasn't good enough for my wife's mother. She told my wife that she wanted my daughter to admit she stole it, and my wife tried to tell her that it was kind of my daughter's job to collect loose change and put it in the china cabinet so that if one of us needed it we knew where it was and we could use it. Her mother wouldn't accept this explanation and got on the phone and called her son to come get her. She stormed through the house muttering about how I was a horrible mother and how my daughter needed to learn that stealing was wrong. My daughter was distraught. She came to me crying and my wife was trying to convince her mother to stay and it was a mess. Over 63 cents!!!

[pnggrad79]

I said to her on the way down that I couldn't win. It didn't matter what I did. If I talk too much, I get in trouble, if I don't talk enough, I am aloof and distant. My wife said, "Welcome to my world. That's how I grew up!"

[Zerbie]

That's why I am so proud of your wife, PNG. It is SO difficult to extricate oneself from that kind of web. She took a stand for you, your relationship, her individuality, and her adulthood the other day - which is hard, hard, hard, no matter how old we are.

I am so glad she stood for you/herself.

:applause::applause::love:

[pnggrad79]

Zerbie,
I am glad she took a stand, but I had to beg and plead for years for her to do it. This may sound petty or like I am splitting hairs, but why people do things is important to me. So to me the question is-why couldn't she just do it because it was the right thing to do? Why did I have to throw a fit to get it done, to get her to defend me?

When I came out, I told my mom and dad that not only was I a lesbian, but that I had gotten married in Canada to her. I let them know it wasn't a passing thing that I would soon get over or move past. It was permanent and not likely to change. She never had to ask me to do that. She has never asked me to defend her. She doesn't have to ask. I just do it because I feel she is worth defending. That's what people do to people they love. If you saw someone bashing your husband verbally or otherwise, would you just stand there and let it happen? I don't think so.

The only reason she did it was to restore peace in our relationship. She only did it to please me, not because it was the right thing to do. She dug in her heels for years, let her mother denigrate me, smiled at me, told me to suck it up and accept it, and swept it under the rug. And for years it has festered inside me like a blister. I don't know what was different this time.

I just wish, and pardon me for seeming like it is splitting hairs, that for once I didn't have to beg, borrow and plead for her to defend me. I wish she would just do it because I am worth it, because she is proud to call me her wife, because she loves me, because everytime her mother puts me down, she feels it, too.

I know I should just be happy that she finally did it, and move on. But do I have a point or am I just being difficult?:confused:

[keltic63]

Zerbie,
I am glad she took a stand, but I had to beg and plead for years for her to do it. This may sound petty or like I am splitting hairs, but why people do things is important to me. So to me the question is-why couldn't she just do it because it was the right thing to do? Why did I have to throw a fit to get it done, to get her to defend me?

When I came out, I told my mom and dad that not only was I a lesbian, but that I had gotten married in Canada to her. I let them know it wasn't a passing thing that I would soon get over or move past. It was permanent and not likely to change. She never had to ask me to do that. She has never asked me to defend her. She doesn't have to ask. I just do it because I feel she is worth defending. That's what people do to people they love. If you saw someone bashing your husband verbally or otherwise, would you just stand there and let it happen? I don't think so.

The only reason she did it was to restore peace in our relationship. She only did it to please me, not because it was the right thing to do. She dug in her heels for years, let her mother denigrate me, smiled at me, told me to suck it up and accept it, and swept it under the rug. And for years it has festered inside me like a blister. I don't know what was different this time.

I just wish, and pardon me for seeming like it is splitting hairs, that for once I didn't have to beg, borrow and plead for her to defend me. I wish she would just do it because I am worth it, because she is proud to call me her wife, because she loves me, because everytime her mother puts me down, she feels it, too.

I know I should just be happy that she finally did it, and move on. But do I have a point or am I just being difficult?:confused:


NOW, you're being difficult. :rolleyes:

a few posts back, you said that your wife responded to your statements about her mother with "welcome to my world." which tells a lot, I think. It sounds like everyone is on pins and needles around "mom" and the fact that your wife stood up, even if it took a lot of begging from you, took a lot of courage. Accept this from your wife, and realize that she's worried about more than just how you are treated at her parents' house. She may be afraid to say the wrong thing about the weather, or politics, or even if she salts her food.....it seems anything could be turned into an offense by the MIL. Parent-child relationships are complicated, and if the parent is a bit off-center, there's a whole lifetime of dealing with that for the kid. Your wife has defended you, not knowing what it may have cost her (nothing, yet, but she didn't know that for sure) go with it, and be grateful.

[pnggrad79]

I am grateful, but I didn't want it to be contrived. It is the difference between being solicited and just doing it on your own. It means so much more when my daughters clean the kitchen without being asked versus me having to beg for them to do it and they do it just to shut me up. Y'know?

[andrewlittle]

You might want to think about what role you adopt in the family dynamic.

This retelling of your story makes for confusing reading - I would imagine living it is even more confusing.

- subjects changed
(My wife's mother) I saw this as (stealing) placating her mom, when my (16 yo) wife saw it as (cleaning up) keeping the peace. So (my wife's mother) I baited my (daughter) wife and (left .63 on the coffee table) so I kept harping on how it made me feel insignificant and unloved, and within a couple of (hours) days, my (daughter) wife picked it up, and (put it in a jar she kept in the china closet) and said it was not her problem. Meanwhile, (My wife's mother) I was outraged, and called my (daughter) wife over (to her) and accused her of (stealing) abandoning me. My (daughter) wife was confused and asked what she (stole) did wrong? (Her mother) I said (63 cents) you didn't defend me. My (daughter started crying and) wife insisted she was just (cleaning up) keeping the peace, and wouldn't admit (stealing) to doing anything wrong. So (my wife's mother) I told my (wife) friends that my (daughter) wife was (stealing) hurting me and my (wife) friends (asked my daughter to put the money back) agreed that my wife should address the situation with her mom. So (my daughter promptly) my wife eventually (got 63 cents out of the jar and put it back) called her mom and told her to refer to me as her wife or partner. That wasn't good enough for (my wife's mother) me. (She) I told my (wife) friends that (she) I wanted my (daughter) wife to admit she (stole it) abandoned me, and my (wife) friends tried to tell (her) me that it was kind of my (daughter's) wife's job to (collect loose change and put it in the china cabinet so that if one of us needed it we knew where it was and we could use it) to consider my feelings and do it out of love for me. (Her mother) I wouldn't accept this explanation and got on the (phone) forums and (called her son to come get her) complained she did it for the wrong reasons. (She stormed) I whined through the (house) forums muttering about how (I) she was a horrible (mother) wife and how my (daughter) wife needed to learn that (stealing) placating was wrong. My (daughter) wife was (distraught) confused. She came to me crying and was trying to convince (her mother) me (to stay) to understand her dysfunctional family dynamics and it was a mess. Over (63 cents) my wife stepping out against her family patterns, out of love for me, to defend me!!!

[paul]

Png,

I agree with several here, a good counselor is a good idea. It may take a little looking to find one, but I think it's good to have a third party to go to when there is an impass in the relationship.

Having said that, and with the disclaimer this is simply my opinion. I not only agree with Patrick, but am not nearly so diplomatic in my feelings, or speech. I think the real choice for you is whether or not you should attend family functions if you cannot be who you are. Your wife seems to have made that decision and is comfortable with it, you are not. It seems to me that she is content with the illusion of acceptance vs. actually being accepted. It also seems she and her family are more in favor of maintaining an illusion than living with reality.

[pnggrad79]

You have no idea how right you are Paul. When her brother came out back in the mid 90's, he not only came out that he was gay, he came out with a serious crack addiction with it. He would spend his paychecks on crack, then he stole from his mom to pay for crack, then his car got repossessed and his parents paid to get it back, like $4000 or something. They were so enabling to him, it was a joke. My wife, who wasn't my wife then, went to the mat with her parents over this issue of them always bailing him out. But they wouldn't help her with school tuition or a place to live, yet they would spend money to bail him out of jail or pay court costs when he had to go to court for DUI or possession of drugs and such. The car thing was the last straw with her and she said it was either her or him and they chose him. She didn't speak to her parents for months after that. In the meantime, her brother hooked up with this other guy in Abilene who put him through rehab, and told him to shape up his act or they couldn't be together. 10 years later, her brother is clean, and now lives with this guy and they are together. Point is, her parents saw their enabling as loving their son. My wife saw it as choosing him over her.

And the gay issue-it is the elephant in the room that everyone sees but no one acknowledges it. This same phenomenon of introducing partners as friends, goes on with her brother and his partner as well. I have talked to her brother's partner and he doesn't like it either and is quite unhappy the whole time they are with the family. It makes for a very tense situation every holiday, because he and I feel like outsiders yet our respective partners, brother and sister, know this family dynamic and don't buck the system. His partner shuts up becomes sullen, sleeps a lot, and basically tries to stay out of the limelight. I am more of the rabble rouser and want to shake this up a bit because of the unfairness and the inequality, and it crawls all over me that this charade exists. Its like a alternate universe where right is left, and black is white and the sky is green. You know Alice in Wonderland type nonsense where nothing is what is seems.

[pnggrad79]

You might want to think about what role you adopt in the family dynamic.

This retelling of your story makes for confusing reading - I would imagine living it is even more confusing.

This family dynamic is quite confusing and that is why I prefer finding a corner somewhere, grabbing a book and escaping for awhile. My wife's family sees it as "I don't like them" or "aloof and distant", so I have to try to make these people like me. With normal people I can be fun, joke around, have a good time, because I know they aren't going to put me under a microscope and analyze every damn move I make. They take me like I am and pronounce no judgments on me. Her family on the other hand, OMG, if I look crosseyed at them, it is a crucifiable offense. ( me looking crosseyed is not hard for me to do, since one of my eyes is paralyzed) It is a rat on a wheel working really hard to get somewhere and going nowhere. I can't win for losing with this family and I just plain give up. If they don't like me, I am not going to lose sleep over it and if they have nothing better to do than analyze every syllable I say or every move I make, then they need to get a damn life and leave me alone.

[andrewlittle]

... here I go.

Png, I think the odds of you being just like your MIL are pretty slim, so that's not what I meant (just in case you thought I did).

I do think, however, that the odds that you are unwittingly playing a role - a familiar familial pattern - in your wife's life is not a long shot. By that I don't think you're being set up - at least not consciously - but that you may be being cast in a role without having the benefit of having read the script.

Virtually every child develops while learning how to survive in some situation(s) that challenge or threaten their emotional or physical well-being - in this case, that would be appropo of your wife. When we grow older, however, we seem to instincively (i) pick people like those who made survival difficult, or (ii) set people up unconsciously to play out similar roles. Children of alcoholics - even if they don't pick an addict - do pick someone who tends towards obsessive-cmpulsive behavior. If, however, the mate doesn't behave in a familiar way, sometimes their behavior is "pushed and pulled" until it feels familiar.

My question in rewriting your story was really are you reacting according to a script that is (i) familiar to your wife and (ii) guaranteed to create friction, thereby satisfying some unconscious need your wife has?

Thsi is not somehting I know, but something that seemed to pop out of your story. It may be worth something - it may be woth nothing.

[tymejumper]

I think your wife needs to start to go to ALL family 'functions' alone. After all, a 'family friend' is not expected to go to family parties. Since she wants to saddle you with the name, you need to play the part.

My wife and I disscussed this last night. She is not as out as I am(I came out of that closet roaring!) She told me that sometimes it is better to not mention your relationship to others and let them figure it out. She also said that if they have known you to be together for that amount of time, maybe they can't give voice to the fact you are a couple. I of course(very calmly) explained that maybe, just MAYBE they needed to have attention drawn to the fact that you were a couple. She told me we would never probably agree on it.

I informed her kindly that if that were to ever happen to us, she would be attending all family get togethers alone, from that point forward. ;)

I wish I had better advice to give:(

[tymejumper]

Last night, she came home, sat down next to me and said, "I just got off the phone with mom, and told her that I wanted her to stop referring to you as the family friend. She is my wife and not just a friend." Her mom said something like she didn't recognize it as a marriage. My wife reminded her that we were married whether she recognized it or not. She said that from now on, if introductions were to be made, she would make them. I asked her how she would introduce me. She said, "As my wife or partner"


Ok, now I feel really stupid cause I posted without reading all the posts!:D:lol::lol::lol:

I am glad that she took your feelings to heart and that she made attempts to fix it. My wife told me that she would always stand up for me also, so its all good in the hood!:rolleyes: I think her mom is justifying why she didnt want to include you and you not helping in the kitchen is the best she could come up with.

[pnggrad79]

It's ok, Tyme, no offense taken. This is just homophobia at its best. I think gay people have the worst homophobia of all. We are the best self haters in the world. And we project our self hate onto those we love.

Andrew-I think your theory is very valid. I keep wondering why I pick people who don't place me in a position of importance in their lives. I don't know if its because I settle for second or third place, or if it is because I grew up with parents who subtly let it be known that I was an extreme disappointment because I was a girl and not a boy, and therefore not as valued as a boy would have been. When my brother was born, you would have thought he hung the moon in the sky and my dad was never so happy. Consequently, I choose people who don't value me. (Just a theory)

Who knows?!

[Emproph]

And the gay issue-it is the elephant in the room that everyone sees but no one acknowledges it. This same phenomenon of introducing partners as friends, goes on with her brother and his partner as well. I have talked to her brother's partner and he doesn't like it either and is quite unhappy the whole time they are with the family. It makes for a very tense situation every holiday, because he and I feel like outsiders yet our respective partners, brother and sister, know this family dynamic and don't buck the system. His partner shuts up becomes sullen, sleeps a lot, and basically tries to stay out of the limelight. I am more of the rabble rouser and want to shake this up a bit because of the unfairness and the inequality, and it crawls all over me that this charade exists. Its like a alternate universe where right is left, and black is white and the sky is green. You know Alice in Wonderland type nonsense where nothing is what is seems.
2 gay kids?! How many kids do they have?

At that point the elephant in the room doesn’t necessarily seem to be a gay issue anymore, but a parental failure issue.

1 gay kid you can dismiss as not your fault... “It must be as they say, they’re born that way.”

But given the relative rarity of homosexuality, for a parent to have TWO gay kids, almost leaps to the conclusion that somehow this is the result of their own parental failure. Conceptually speaking of course. But from what you’ve described about your mother in law, she seems very much like type to jump to and cling to the worst possible conclusion.

Also, with your brother’s in law crack / car experience, she may not have had “time” to separate the idea of “gay” and “negative.” And thus, her daughter, and you by extension, are conflated into the negative mix.

To that extent, she may have “unnecessary” unresolved issues, simply because they piled up too fast for her to even realize that they are separate issues.

Again, just some things of note that I’m seeing from what you’ve described that may be worthy of consideration.

I say she needs a PFLAG intervention. Do they even do that?

Seriously, does she know any other parents with gay kids? That seems of paramount importance as far as support for her situation goes.

[pnggrad79]

My MIL knows at least 2 other parents with gay children. And both of these parents do exactly like she does, conditionally accept their gay children, but try to keep it as secret as they can. And they don't talk it about to each other. Again, it is the elephant in the room everybody sees but no one acknowledges. My MIL and her two friends could garner a lot of support from each other if they would just talk about it. It's one thing to be a gay person, it's another to be the parent of a gay person. It's a whole different dynamic and set of things to deal with.

Don't get me wrong, I applaud my MIL for allowing her daughter and me into her home. Hell, its more accommodating than my parents, who have completely thrown me out of their lives. I know it is hard for MIL to see her only daughter, for whom I am sure she had hopes and aspirations, fall in love with another woman and make a life with her, but that doesn't diminish that love or make it any less validated. My wife, other than being married to me, is a very successful, tax-paying, law-abiding citizen who has never given her mother an occasion to worry, or stay up nights wondering if she was going to have to bail her daughter out of jail. Why should being married to another woman be something she doesn't like? Is it all part of that "Hopes and aspirations" going down the drain? Does she not think a home and family are possibilities just because we are lesbians?

Thing is-she doesn't talk about it, but her actions speak volumes at least to me. My wife is busy trying to placate her mother, and me, knowing she isn't going to ever be with a man, but can't bring herself to own that fact. So they sweep it under the rug, pretend it isn't there, but it is a big old elephant crowding the living room and no one has room to sit, or breathe or be comfortable.:rolleyes:

[pnggrad79]

Png,

I have some questions:

How has/does your marriage manifest itself? Did you get legally married (in Canada, for instance)? Do you wear rings? Do you own/share a home together? Are you raising children together?

I don't have any easy answers to your problem. I'm just wondering if being called a "family friend" by your mom-in-law would be such a big deal if it were obvious to people that you are more than a mere aquaintance--that you and her daughter are making a life together.

Are there other ways that your relationship is being denied or nullified or hidden besides the "family friend" label? Are there other issues?

I hear stories (and have experienced first hand) how getting legally married (in Canada, for instance) makes a big difference. Family, friends and co-workers treat you differently and you feel different yourself.

Right now, my biggest irritation is filling out forms that ask me whether I'm married or single. Last time I got one of those forms there was a sizable blank space after the words "married" and "single" and so I wrote "in Canada" after the word "married" and "in Wisconsin" after the word "single." (By the way, I'm wondering how other folks in this forum deal with those stupid married/single blanks on forms?)

I'm anxious to hear what Polly has to say about couple's counseling. I'm hoping a counselor would help both of you clarify your ideas and feelings without taking sides on any of the issues. I think that's what a good counselor would do. Maybe Polly and Udog might comment here on how one recognizes a good job of counseling.

Steven Webster

Steven,
Yes, we got married in Niagara Falls, Canada, on Sept. 11, 2004. We wear rings, with a 3/4 carat marquis shaped diamond in the middle of both rings, so it is hard to miss. We have lived together for almost 7 years. We are raising my two daughters from my previous marriage, and they are 20 and 17. We constitute a real family in my mind.

I believe the ONLY reason her mom refers to me as a "Family friend" is her own refusal to accept that we are lesbians and she doesn't want that for her daughter. She wants to relegate our relationship to mere friends when it is so much more, and has been for quite awhile ans she knows it. I take it as an insult. My wife and I have been through so much together, aside from bills, kids, cars, mortgages, etc, that to call us "friends" is an insult. Hell, if she knew about what goes on behind closed doors, she would freak out. I am quite sure she doesn't want to know, but it is part and parcel of being married and/or being together.

My wife treats me like we are married. In every sense of the word. We lived together for 3 years before we got married (officially) and we acted married even then. We act married clear up until the time we enter her mother's house and then a metamorphosis occurs-She becomes 11 years old again, and her mom and her dad treat her like she has never grown up. I am thrown into this wierd time warp and really don't know how to act. I can't call her "baby" or "my love". She calls me by my name. She doesn't sit by me when we're eating, she hardly ever talks to me, hell no one talks to me. I feel like a picture on the wall. And then we exit the house, get back in the car, and we are back to being married. "Baby this" and "Sweetie, that" Her hands are rubbing my back lightly or playing with my hair. She smiles and winks at me. Total transformation. I am like what the hell just happened?

It has gotten better the last couple of times we go down there, but for years this is the way it was. Now she calls me "Babe" or "Sweetie" but whispers it. (Can't make Mommy uncomfortable) I make the effort to go sit by her.

Twilight Zone time!!!!!!!!!!!!!:eek:

[pnggrad79]

Udog,
Sounds like a good idea, but brother and partner live in Abilene. Kind of hard to get together on a regular basis. Plus, brother doesn't like to upset Mommy either. Partner told me on Thanksgiving that he wished brother would cut the umbilical cord already! They never show affection to each other. When with the family, Partner sits on the couch, sleeping, or staring at the TV most of the time and never says anything, and only gets up to go outside to smoke.
When we got married back in 2004, I wanted my partner to invite her mom and dad, and when she called her brother to ask whether or not she should, he told her under no circumstances invite them. I thought why not? They already have one gay kid, what would be the problem. Besides she is the only daughter, and the baby. I would be crushed if my only daughter didn't invite me to her wedding, even if it was to a woman. Who cares?
Nevertheless, we got married without them and they will never get to see her in her wedding dress. Kind of a shame! My parents wouldn't have even responded. It's not even a marriage to them.

[HarmlessEccentric]

Now comes the really hard part... your wife has come through and done what you asked her to do, so you have to refrain from using this disagreement against her the next time you argue.

[tdogg]

That's a tough situation for you pnggrad, but also for your wife. If you haven't lived through a similar childhood, you won't ever get a real feel for how it feels to be conditionally loved. It's tough, tougher on some than others. Even though you say it took years for your wife to finally make stand for you with her mother, you need to really 'feel' how that must have taken some real courage on your wife's part. It's a good start.

When resolving conflict, you got to get through it, get over it, and then get on. That means both of you learning from the experience, tossing it around, planning on how to get through future conflicts with your current knowledge and experience, and them moving forward in your life together. Easier said than done. But, I think your wife deserves some consideration and support in the steps she has taken, even if you feel it took too long. You obviously love each other, and this was obviously not an easy thing for her to do.

You yearn for her support, I'm sure she yearns from yours. Give her some props, but also, don't neglect self-respect. Should it occur again, I also agree with others to simply not attend the function until she gets it right. Counseling, separately and together is an excellent idea. Not only to learn conflict resolution and to help heal and correct, but as a preventative measure too. It's one of the very best tools you can use in maintaining a loving and effective relationship. Good luck with this, it's really not an easy thing to deal with. I know, I have family that refuse to even discuss my relationship, my partner and me being gay. It hurts, to know they are hurting, disappointed, angered, etc., and to not spend time with them especially during the holidays. I'm fortunate in that I have many loving family and friends, and my partner's family fully accepts me.

[pnggrad79]

Tdogg,
I agree with you. Believe me when I say, I did grow up this way as well. The old "If I don"t acknowledge the elephant in the room, then it really isn't there" way of life. Hell, my own mother, when I call her, even if its 11 p.m. at night, will spend maybe 3 minutes on the phone with me and then have to rush off because something is on the stove about to boil over, or burn. I haven't been to their house in 3 years because I am not welcome if my wife comes with me. So this garbage exists on both sides. The difference is that my parents have absolutely no contact with me. They don't call, write, or visit me. I could die and they would never know, and vice versa. Her parents, on the other hand, marginally accept us, allow us to come over, visit and call. Us being gay is ok, but don't tell anyone else.

I do give my wife credit for taking the stand she did. I just wish it wasn't contrived. I wish I didn't have to beg for it. But at least she did it for whatever reason. The effect is the same, I guess.

[Daniel]

I do give my wife credit for taking the stand she did. I just wish it wasn't contrived. I wish I didn't have to beg for it. But at least she did it for whatever reason. The effect is the same, I guess.

What's that old saying? Don't kick a gift horse in the mouth? I agree with Harmless, now that your beloved has gone to bat for you, now is not the time to keep turning the rock over- or throw it in the future. Tough to do- boy- do I know that. The resentment that can fester over this stuff gets to me every holiday.

In my own situation, I have a niece who is having a wedding celebration that my sister - her mother- invited me to in February. Trouble is, this is the same sister who completely ignored the wedding invitation hubby and I sent her when we got married. Know what? I'm not going to be a dick, but I'm not going to let it go either. I'm not showing up, good gay uncle, gifts and all, pretending that sis and I are hunky-dory. The other twist is that that my neice invited us to come: hey- I will honor that. She accepts me and my guy- and even mentioned- when I saw her a few days ago over the holiday's- what a raw deal her parents gave me and my guy.

But there I was, at my parent's house for the holiday's, and my sister is asking me in an anxious voice: "Are you coming to to the wedding celebration?" And I'm looking at her like "What actually do you think is going on here?" I said: "Probably." Meanwhile- I'm surrounded by the rest of the family- 4 siblings- parent's -neices & nephews- and it's not my manner to address an old wound in front of 15 people.

But you know what, the heterosexuls don't get to have it both ways. It's not the job of us nice-wanting-to-get-along gay people to play along with their scripts.

My sister is getting a carefully worded email today. I'm not going to rake her over the coals of my old anger. But I do want her to know that my coming to her daughter's wedding celebration is a lot more graciousness than she showed to me and my guy 7 years ago.

It would be stupid- in my mind- for me to play tit-for-tat. But that elelphant in the room? It's going to be addressed. And at this point, I'm not concerned about getting an apology for past bad manners as much as I am about not letting another moment of disparity go by unaddressed. Sis can react however she wants to.

What does this have to do with your situation?

I think one thing here is for us all to learn to address things as they arise as best we can. Letting things go- falling into the same pattern over and over again- is soul killing.

We don't have to play into other people's dysfunction to make them 'happy'. Hell! They're not happy in the first place!

I sent you much peace.

[Daniel]

Hell, my own mother, when I call her, even if its 11 p.m. at night, will spend maybe 3 minutes on the phone with me and then have to rush off because something is on the stove about to boil over, or burn. I haven't been to their house in 3 years because I am not welcome if my wife comes with me. So this garbage exists on both sides. The difference is that my parents have absolutely no contact with me. They don't call, write, or visit me. I could die and they would never know, and vice versa.

This is what I did years ago- and it made a difference (I've written about this elsewhere here).

A wise counselor told me that I had to give what I wanted to have/get. Boy that made me mad. But I realized, after a lot of fussing and grinding to teeth, that she was right. And I think one could make a case for this being the essence of the Golden Rule.

What did I do?

I started calling my parents and ending the conversation by telling them that I loved them.

I gave them what I wanted them to give me. I reached out to them.

Oh....the words seems surreal when I said them. And there would be a long pause on the other end of the line. And it took more than several conversations for them to 'get-with-the-program'.

It'a about establishiing a connection. One that is based on your reality, not there's.

In my case, I had to haul my parents up to some semblance of manners. Now? My Dad is 80 and even hugs me when I see him (never did that when I was a kid) and includes my hubby in greetings etc. This takes time.

Now. I know that each circumstance is different. Your parent's my be hardliner's, but what have you got to lose? In my case, telling my parent's I loved them was the ONE ACTION that resulted in the establishment of some kind of relationship.

Maybe you need to say something else- you are the best judge of that. But my point here is that you are the one who can/must start the change.

And that's that motto of this site, right?

Be the Change You Seek..

Wear them down with love.

And at least, you will have, in the process, generated some love and compassion for yourself. That's one thing I've learned too. We really do get what we give.

[Vanessa White]

Png: I have been reading this thread over the last couple of days, and really haven't had anything new to offer, it has all been said in various, loving ways. But this message of Daniel's resonates with me the most. Sure, parents, other family, friends, coworkers- many of us have them in our lives that aren't willing, or seemingly willing, to accept us for who we are. However, to respond in anger, resentment, and ill feeling, although very hard to resist, will bring more of the same ten fold. Give the love to receive the love. Go on "as if", which is also a surefire way to love YOURSELF for being who you, and your wife, are. When I say that, what I mean is, I anticipate in my mind, at almost every turn, that I will encounter persons who do not embrace me (literally and figuratively) because of my sexual orientation. However, I do all in my power to not let that penetrate my heart, because if I do, I reject MYSELF as well, as well as those that are in my relationship with me. I need to listen to my heart, even if it has been hurt in the past, and call up the most loving parts of it to give back, or give freely if it has not been given in awhile, or even, as in Daniel's case, in a lifetime. I am convinced of several things about humans: one of them is that just because a person does not say they love us, or seem to express it in their actions, doesn't make it so. I think it is BECAUSE of their love for us, that they act the quirky ways that they do sometimes. Not an excuse, but a way to understand.

I remember that when I was growing up, especially teen years, my mom was the first person that I would talk with about things bothering me. i viewed her as my best friend, confidante. But, she hardly ever hugged me, and when she did, it was limp. I just kept hugging her, telling her I loved her, because it was what I felt in my heart of hearts.

Now, she is hard pressed to let go when she does latch on to me. And, she tells me she loves me A LOT. She still has other areas that are removed from me, but I have seen her growth. If I had expressed rejection of sorts to her, I think the reaction would have been totally different.

I hope that this helps.......:love::love::love::love:

[pnggrad79]

Daniel and Vanessa,
Your advice was well received and I would love to do that. I believe in what you both said to me. Here's the problem though.

Do I go without my wife to family gatherings like Thanksgiving, Christmas, etc? Because they will not even let her in the house and if they did, it would be an extremely uncomfortable situation for all concerned. I am boycotting family gatherings to make a point-it is simply unfair that my sisters and brother can bring their spouses but I can't bring mine. Moreover, I do not want to go without my wife, because I think it somehow diminishes the relationship and gives them what they want. They WANT me to view my relationship as less than theirs. I don't and won't denigrate it.

I don't want to go alone. I am married and I feel my place is with my wife. To go alone, in my view, tells my wife that I value holidays with my family and not her. See my point?

I could call and end the conversation (which is all of 3 minutes) with "I love you", but would probably get hung up on. I could do it regardless.

I could write letters and include information about my life, my wife and what's going on. They would go unanswered and hell for all I know, thrown away.

I could just bring my wife and show up, and cause them to have to treat her right, because they don't want to cause a scene.

I don't know what to do. I don't know what the right thing to do is in order to accomplish what you are suggesting I do, and honoring my wife's place in my life, too.

[Vanessa White]

You have to handle this in the way that is best for you, and for her. And, of course, that is not an exact science. So, it is not infallible. That being said, from your last post, it sounds as if you have a lot of "I coulds" that you at least have called up in your mind. One, all of them for that matter, take a great deal of courage and perseverance, and won't be comfortable at first for some, if not all, of the parties involved. One of the keys is that you can never control what others do, or how they will react, or not react. You can only do what you do, what feels right within your heart and with your wife's heart, as the best way, the most self-loving way to handle this. My partner and I have not spent holidays apart, but even though it is important to me not to, I would if it meant that the situation called for something different. We still have to come back to our solid foundation, and that is why these situations can destroy relationships. You have to make steps that may not be what you are both fully in favor of, but that best serve your marriage to one another and allow you to be true to that commitment to one another. :love:

[tdogg]

Pnggrad, I get how you feel on this one. The first Christmas my partner and I were fully together, one of my sisters was having a difficult time deciding if she was even going to invite me. She spoke with my other sister about it via email and I inadvertently got the email message too. I basically told her if it made her decision easier I would be spending the holidays with my partner so if she was not welcome in my sisters home I would not be going alone.

My reasoning was that I wanted to spend the date with my partner more than I wanted to spend it with my family without her. My sister explained that we weren't welcome together (partner not welcome) as she must protect her children from an open lesbian relationship (no reason why). Since, I have never received another invitation from her other than a recent home decorating party where my partner was not included. I opted not to go because of that and well, home decorating parties are just not my thing.

I have extended many invitations for visits, holiday dinners, etc. to my sister and her family and she always has an excuse why she can't make it. Cards, presents and mailings come to me only when they do come. She never mentions my partner or my relationship and has no interest in obtaining any knowledge about GLBTs or that part of my life. Avoidance is her answer to the conflict within her. I seriously doubt her children would care, other than perhaps there are gay jokes rampant in the household??

My partner is also not welcome in my parents' home (stepmother decision, father disabled and no decision making). I am reluctant to visit, mainly because then I have to deal with my stepmom's crap, feelings, selfishness and religious issues (she is VERY fundamental). That means I neglect visiting my dad. Several months ago my felon brother moved in with them, he gets much more care and attention than my father and I hear my father pretty much sticks in his bedroom 24/7. So, avoidance is no longer my option, I will be going there soon to check on my dad.

I'll need to get up all my courage, reserve and emotional strength to deal with this, but my father is worth it and my priority right now. Perhaps this will the avenue to confronting my stepmom and even my sister and force them to think about me and my life somewhat. Either begin to see the light or come right out and ban me from their lives.

[pnggrad79]

Tdogg,
Thanks for your support. I know this a tough situation to deal with. When my sister sent her Christmas card to me, she included me, and my two girls, but not my partner. I felt so angry, but did not retaliate. My partner was very mature about it. She said, "They did exactly what I expected of them." I said, "What do you mean?" She said, "I am not offended because I expect them to include me. They never have so it doesn't give me a reason to expect they ever will. I would drop dead if they ever did include me." Interesting perspective, to say the least.

[tdogg]

Thanks for bringing this type of discussion up. It really helps me with my family issues, as I often really don't how how to react or what to do. It helps to know I'm not alone. Daniel is right, we just need to handle it the best way we know how and can. :love::love:

[Daniel]

Daniel and Vanessa,

Your advice was well received and I would love to do that. I believe in what you both said to me. Here's the problem though.

Do I go without my wife to family gatherings like Thanksgiving, Christmas, etc? Because they will not even let her in the house and if they did, it would be an extremely uncomfortable situation for all concerned. I am boycotting family gatherings to make a point-it is simply unfair that my sisters and brother can bring their spouses but I can't bring mine. Moreover, I do not want to go without my wife, because I think it somehow diminishes the relationship and gives them what they want. They WANT me to view my relationship as less than theirs. I don't and won't denigrate it.

I don't want to go alone. I am married and I feel my place is with my wife. To go alone, in my view, tells my wife that I value holidays with my family and not her. See my point?

Gotcha!

I could call and end the conversation (which is all of 3 minutes) with "I love you", but would probably get hung up on. I could do it regardless. Yep....you could. ;)

I could write letters and include information about my life, my wife and what's going on. They would go unanswered and hell for all I know, thrown away. Nothing tried...nothing gained.

I could just bring my wife and show up, and cause them to have to treat her right, because they don't want to cause a scene. Ooooooh!

This sounds like a risky plan worth trying, that is, if your gal feels safe doing it, and YOU feel like you can make matters safe for her- by taking charge. That's YOUR job. She can't be there to defend you.

Got that?

I can't emphasize this enough. I had to learn to defend my guy from my family's dysfunction. I had to train them to treat him better. Which means that I also had to stop letting them walk all over me too. And it was my hubby who pointed this out to me....and I didn't like facing that for one minute. (Damn! This stuff gets complicated!)

When I had my first boyfriend and Thanskgiving rolled around and my mother basically disinvited him, I laid it on the line. I said: "If he doesn't come, I'm not either." That was risky, but I was ready to take that risk and not play by my parent's script. My mother chose to include us both. That was a good thing, because our subsequent relationship has been an outgrowth of that. Had she chosen differently, I don't know where I would be right now. Maybe in your shoes.

If you are boycotting and all the 'power' of the situation is in your parent's hands, then it sound's like a 'power struggle'. And that ain't love.

I think there are two things to do here: Love your parents and ASSERT your personhood i.e. take back your power (showing up with your gal would be one way to do that).

What about a surprise visit? One they aren't expecting and can't control? As in- Bring gifts. Flowers to your mom etc. Kill them with kindness. The thing is to stop playing by THEIR rules.

I don't know what to do. I don't know what the right thing to do is in order to accomplish what you are suggesting I do, and honoring my wife's place in my life, too.

I hear you.

All that I've said aside, my sense is that you could benefit from some brainstorming with a couple's counselor, someone who is clued into your dynamic as a couple as that of your families.

I only have my own experience to draw from, and everyone's relationship with their family is different. But I do know that love, when expressed, it like water on a rock: it takes time, but eventually, the water wears the stone away, even if only a little bit.

[tymejumper]

My reasoning was that I wanted to spend the date with my partner more than I wanted to spend it with my family without her. My sister explained that we weren't welcome together (partner not welcome) as she must protect her children from an open lesbian relationship (no reason why).

Yeah, I got the same exact thing from my brother, had to protect his child, no explanation. I told him I was so glad he brought up that he had to protect his child, because I also had to protect my 3 kids by not exposing them to someone with his ignorance and bigoted morals, not to mention of his religious background. Boy, that pi*sed him off!

I also got that with grandmother, she "doesn't approve" and invited me alone to her house last year for Christmas. I told her that if my life partner was not welcomed, then I would not be there as I was spending the hoildays with her and all my remaining holidays with her. We were building a life together and I was, at 37, WAY to old to need or care about her approval. I informed her that if she wanted to see me, or the great grands, she needed to come to OUR home and treat Ellie with the respect she would anyone elses spouse. She finally came here this year when I refused to call, talk to or bring my children over to her. She was polite and looked as uncomfortable as a Nun in a Southern Baptist church.

My father was at least honest and said that he was not comfortable and may never be but he would meet her. He did and actually he is the one that didn't cause near the fuss I thought he would. He actually asked us to lunch and talked a lot with my wife.

My mother is supportive and so is her partner of 15 years. They have always had my back and supported me. She is so glad I am happy finally and have someone who treats me well. She told me that I need to stop appoligizing for the way I was born. She said God made me to love women and that he don't make junk! She also said I should love fully because if I did not, then I would be throwing his gift away and calling my self a mistake. My mom rocks!

It is sad for me that we all have the same things to go through to be whole people.:(

[pnggrad79]

Tyme,
Your mom is gay?

[tymejumper]

Tyme,
Your mom is gay?



No, she uses the term "partner" because she is not married. She says it sounds much more adult than 'boyfriend' and much more permanent than 'lover'. Actually, he has alwasy treated me like his daughter, he has 2 biological ones himself. He just took me in along with his girls.

That does remind me of when she was first divorced from my dad about 15 years ago. She asked me if I would love her any less than I do now if she were a lesbian, at this time, I was not yet out to her(or anyone except myself). I told her it would not make a difference to me. She said she was just asking because my brother was upset about the divorce and had refused to talk to her. She told me she hoped that I could come to her about anyting becuase she would always love me and support me no matter what. I did not see it at the time but she was indirectly asking me about myself being a lesbian. Talk about in the closet! I had that door nailed firmly shut!:lol:

[pnggrad79]

ok, sorry to assume. The word partner just conjures up gay or lesbian in my mind.