Honesty and the ministry [Archive] - Soulforce Community Forums

antonyh

01-01-2008, 09:35 PM

I just read an interesting article on 365Gay where Episcopal Presiding Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori says that Gene Robinson is not the only gay bishop in the Anglican Communion. He is just the only honest one.

"He is certainly not alone in being a gay bishop; he's certainly not alone in being a gay partnered bishop," Jefferts Schori said in an interview broadcast Tuesday. "He is alone in being the only gay partnered bishop who's open about that status."

http://365gay.com/Newscon08/01/010208episc.htm

I go to a Methodist Church chock full of students at Garrett Theological Seminary and some of them are queer. They all intend on entering the ministry even though the UMC does not ordain partnered/sexually active gay clergy. I know of one Lesbian UMC clergy member in a relationship that is completely secret. Her girlfriend is also studying to be a UMC clergy member.

This bothers me because I decided to be honest about my sexuality after Seminary and it cost me a place in the ministry. I just could not be in the ministry while living a duplicitous life.

What do you think? I realize that the church puts LGBT clergy in difficult positions, but where does honesty and integrity factor into this?

Pablo Rafael

01-02-2008, 10:24 AM

Anthony,

This subject really resonates with me. It's a tough call. I've been a church worker in the teaching ministry for over 20 years. In order to do that, I have had to keep in the closet. I don't regret that choice really, but for me at least now is the time to come out in the open.

It's an interesting thing that I have found. It seems to me that no one seems to be very upset about having a gay teacher, or minister or priest as long as it is unspoken. The "don't ask, don't tell" policy is very much alive in the church. However, to be OPENLY gay is an entirely different matter.

To illustrate this point. Many years ago when I first started teaching I was in a school board meeting when someone made a comment about whether to hire an openly gay teacher. Someone made the comment that I was gay. I didn't say anything nor did any of the other board members. The topic was dropped and not brought up again. The pastor was also gay; everyone knew it, but ignored the fact. The church requires that a person lie; as long as you lie or at least don't admit the truth, people seem happy.

Everyone that I have come out to or have been told about the fact by someone else have had the same reaction. "I knew it; no surprise there." It's actually been sort of funny in a way.

My opinion now is that those of us who are gay and in the ministry do a disservice to all LGBT people by remaining in the closet. It signals that being gay is bad and should be covered up. If all gay church workers "came out" at once, think of what an impact it would have. (Think of all the gay Catholic priests!)

My plan is to come out at work in a few months. We will see if I have a job for next year. I give "not" a 95% probability. I think it is an important step. It is another step towards a future where the next generation won't have to face the choice you and I faced (are facing).

For me it is also a relief. Soon the ball will be in somebody's else's court. I won't have to hide, and I can be who I am. People will be forced to look at the issue and discuss why the church discriminates against us.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

Daniel

01-02-2008, 11:02 AM

There was another interesting 'twist' in the article too:

The national Episcopal Church has not developed an official public prayer to bless gay couples churchwide. However, Jefferts Schori and other Episcopal leaders acknowledge that such ceremonies take place in many parishes. She said other Anglican churches do the same.

"Those services are happening in various places, including in the Church of England, where my understanding is that there are far more of them happening than there are in the Episcopal Church," Jefferts Schori said.

So- guess what? The church across the pond is having more ceremonies to bless gay couples than the American church. My guess is that one factor is the civil partnership law now in force.

Bully for them!

But back your your concern- and your being honest.

Would you really want it to have gone the other way, that is, stay silent about your orientation so you could have passed through the door- so to speak? Could you have lived with yourself if you had done that?

My dear blessed Anthony. Men of great integrity- like you- don't grow on trees.

But you say: what does it get me now?

While that's not a question I can answer in particular, I'm sure you've thought about the long range implcations of staying in the closest, which made you decide what you did. Say you had kept your mouth shut, got through the gauntlet, got ordained. What would have happened then? Would you have had to keep your relationship a secret, that is, if you felt free to have one at all? Or would you have gotten married to a gal to 'pass'? I shudder to think that ANY of those options were viable. Some may choose them still , but not those willing to live lives of -again- integrity.

And if anything, I believe the message of Jesus is to be REAL.

It pisses me off to know that there are those who make some kind of mental calculus which plays the game of 'I'll get in and then I'll change it for everyone else following me'.

Yeah.....like it happens that way.

More often than not, the closeted gay person who gets their brass ring isn't in a hurry to upset the apple cart- pension plan- nice salary (if one has one). As I see it, the unfortunate truth is that ideas like 'don't ask don't tell' had their origination in churches- the military only followed suit.

I have a friend who serves openly with his partner at the altar of an Episcopal church- he is not a Bishop- and the it angers me that the man would make an excellent Bishop. Is is possible for him? Good question.

Even with all of this- I firmly believe that there is NO GOING BACK. There will only be more and more openness. There WILL be another openly gay bishop and those who don't like it (God Bless Them) can jump into the sea for all I care (actually I do care, but don't see any reason to be shy about my anger about the matter.)

Aren't there brave souls out there ordaining openly gay folk with 'beloved's' these days? I think the thing would be to align one's self with one- even if that meant relocating.

I think honesty means have enough balls to stop participating in the don't ask don't tell dynamic that keeps clergy in the situation they are in. And baby steps like Schori's statement only (I hope) encourage those still in the closet to COME OUT.

Fear is what keeps them in. And is that what Christ taught? For us to be afraid?

Anthony- I consider you a great man. A man of honor and integrity.

Integrity: The quality or condition of being whole or undivided; completeness.

Be Fearless!

Vanessa White

01-02-2008, 01:01 PM

Antony: I "ditto" everything that Daniel has said, both to you and about you. Your level of integrity is without question. I cannot speak from a ministry perspective, as far as being in the ministry. But, I can imagine that there is difficulty on both sides, if there are sides, to the issue. In one sense, I have full admiration and praise for you to live your life in such an open fashion, even with what it meant that you could not do or be in the eyes of the church. It takes great courage and perseverance to live our lives as we are fully meant to be, but it is a challenge I imagine, especially if one wants to have an active role in the church.

On the other hand, I see the side of those that don't come out, until the person has secured a position in the church, or entered in. I cannot imagine how difficult it is to have two, strong forces calling to a person, their religious calling, and the calling to whom that person loves. If I felt such a calling, earlier in my life I may have chosen the church over who i ultimately am as a person. Today, no way. I would be open, and am open, in my church, though not in any leadership role. However, where it gets mixed up is the difference between who I believe Jesus wants us to be, what qualities He would want us to emulate, vs. what the church says is "allowed" or not. That is the part that angers me the most, the position of authority, power and all-knowing that the churches have presented to people, and therefore persons don't feel able to be who they really are without fear of repercussion, or worse yet, ETERNAL DAMNATION.

I agree with Daniel- we can't go back, we can only go forward, and forward we shall, if we all continue to make our small, deliberate steps in our own corners of the world.

I absolutely love your presence here, Antony. It is essential.....:pray::love:

BenL

01-02-2008, 03:05 PM

Antony,

What we queer folks need more than ever now are out gay, lesbian, bi, and trans clergy to minister to and with us in the church. The age of hush-hush silence is just about over. What we need is to hear our lives echoed from the pulpit. What we need is for our families, biological and chosen, to be held up as models.

On the Sunday after Christmas, the sermon at our church was based on the mystery of the Incarnation as told by John in the prologue of his gospel. That's an extremely difficult passage to preach on. But incarnational theology has to be at the center of Christianity. The associate rector, who is straight and married and a father, was able to say that if God were to be incarnate in the 21st century instead of the 1st, he would probably choose to be born as a woman, or as a gay man or lesbian, and would certainly be from a marginal community and not the mainstream. Everyone expected the "woman" from him. There was a silent intake of breath at the gay part, but he was courageous enough to lay it out there. I was so proud of him to be able to see a glbt person as God's chosen and annoited one.

Antony, good for you for being honestly who you are. And shame on the church for automatically disqualifying you because of your honesty. Thank you for your courage.

kara speltz

01-02-2008, 03:41 PM

Dear Anthony: I, too, want to second all that has been said. As a minister, I think it is even more important to be a model of integrity to those we serve.

I remember several years ago, I had a really fabulous pastor, who asked the congregation what was the most consistent message Jesus conveyed and most of us thought it was about love. He told us that it was "fear not." It's ironic to me that so many of those who call themselves Christians rely on fear as a weapon.

You clearly have a prophetic voice, I see it time and time again in your postings. As a Roman Catholic woman, I have two strikes against me in being ordained. But I found comfort in something that Marianne Williamson wrote in "A Return to Love." At a time when I was searching everywhere to comprehend what my ministry was, she wrote, "whether we're janitors or ministers, scrub women, or attornies, we all have the same ministry - to be a reflection of God's love in the world. It's that simple! Hard to live up to, but absolutely simple. I stopped the questioning and try to be more intentional in my life.

There is no doubt you are called to ministry - your postings make it absolutely clear. We are very blessed to have you on the forum.

kara

andrewlittle

01-02-2008, 05:20 PM

Antony,

I concur with the others - if you aren't called, I'll eat my shorts. (That's theological jargon, for the unitiated).

I don't think there's one right answer to the ethical question - is there ever. I do, however, think you answered your ethical question about your call loud and clear. Your call appears to be inextricab;y intertwined with being authentic to who and how God made you - and to you, because of that, I doff my hat.

If you haven't already done so, I would strongly suggest looking into the Church Within a Church Movement. It is Wesleyan/Methodist, strongly lined up against the -isms (heterosexism, racism, sexism, ableism, etc), and looking for people with a sense of ministerial call to work as church in a different way. They are also strongly considering "extraordinary" ordinations in similar vein to some other progressive movements.

If you wouldn't be a good fit with them - well, I'll be running out of shorts.

antonyh

01-02-2008, 08:46 PM

As a Roman Catholic woman, I have two strikes against me in being ordained. But I found comfort in something that Marianne Williamson wrote in "A Return to Love." At a time when I was searching everywhere to comprehend what my ministry was, she wrote, "whether we're janitors or ministers, scrub women, or attornies, we all have the same ministry - to be a reflection of God's love in the world. It's that simple! Hard to live up to, but absolutely simple. I stopped the questioning and try to be more intentional in my life.

Thank you for the quote from Marianne Williamson. It is really powerful and very true. I appreciate all the kind words from everyone.

My decision to come out and watch my ministry plans sink like the Titanic resulted from three observations:

1. Like Pablo said, "Like For me it is also a relief. Soon the ball will be in somebody's else's court. I won't have to hide, and I can be who I am."
2. I wanted the companionship of a relationship.
3. I observed the tragic results of a Presbyterian Church in America pastor that hid his sexual orientation from his congregation for ... 50 years. A member of his congregation found out about a relationship he had with another man and that night he overdosed on benadryl, put a plastic bag over his head and suffocated himself to death. The police found a card to the Saint Louis bathhouse in his apartment. They announced his death during my last semester in Seminary.

I think that all these closeted clergy persons and persons using the closet to get into the clergy are hurting themselves and hurting the progress of sacramental and civil rights for LGBT people.

I love how Jefferts Schori is shining the spotlight on this problem. I'm sure some of these Episcopal old boys are choking on their port. Daniel was so right:

As I see it, the unfortunate truth is that ideas like 'don't ask don't tell' had their origination in churches- the military only followed suit.

antonyh

01-02-2008, 09:02 PM

If you haven't already done so, I would strongly suggest looking into the Church Within a Church Movement. It is Wesleyan/Methodist, strongly lined up against the -isms (heterosexism, racism, sexism, ableism, etc), and looking for people with a sense of ministerial call to work as church in a different way. They are also strongly considering "extraordinary" ordinations in similar vein to some other progressive movements.

If you wouldn't be a good fit with them - well, I'll be running out of shorts.

Do you have the underlying Greek for "eat my shorts" :lol:

I'm actually working on an idea of planting a church without walls in the LGBT community here in Chicago (of course open to all who dare hang out with us). If I wait for an ordination "ordinary" or "extraordinary" I'll be Auntie Methuselah before anything gets done.

My plans are hatching in secret for now, but I'll definitely seek out the advice of those more learned on the board when I have something to show for my efforts.

andrewlittle

01-02-2008, 09:13 PM

Do you have the underlying Greek for "eat my shorts" :lol:

I'm actually working on an idea of planting a church without walls in the LGBT community here in Chicago (of course open to all who dare hang out with us). If I wait for an ordination "ordinary" or "extraordinary" I'll be Auntie Methuselah before anything gets done.

My plans are hatching in secret for now, but I'll definitely seek out the advice of those more learned on the board when I have something to show for my efforts.

Can we hear an AMEN? Auntie Methuselah's Temple of Divine Love. I wanna be there.

And it would save on undergarment expense, I might add.

Now, as to your first question - I'm not sure Greek's had underlying garments. Does anybody know? I'm a Scot, so I'm no judge.

HarmlessEccentric

01-02-2008, 09:18 PM

A pastor's life, of necessity, includes a sincere attempt to live morally, as he or she understands it. To require a pastor to lie, by word and action and implication, every day of her life, takes a terrible toll on her spiritual life.

antonyh

01-02-2008, 09:31 PM

Can we hear an AMEN? Auntie Methuselah's Temple of Divine Love. I wanna be there.

And it would save on undergarment expense, I might add.

Now, as to your first question - I'm not sure Greek's had underlying garments. Does anybody know? I'm a Scot, so I'm no judge.

When you visit, be sure to bring your white handkerchief for some special anointing oil :lol::pray:

kara speltz

01-02-2008, 10:14 PM

Do you have the underlying Greek for "eat my shorts" :lol:

I'm actually working on an idea of planting a church without walls in the LGBT community here in Chicago (of course open to all who dare hang out with us). If I wait for an ordination "ordinary" or "extraordinary" I'll be Auntie Methuselah before anything gets done.

My plans are hatching in secret for now, but I'll definitely seek out the advice of those more learned on the board when I have something to show for my efforts.

Anthony: Greg Dell of the Church Without Walls, I believe is based in Chicago, at least he was a number of years ago. I would see if you can locate him and spend some time talking with him because he is a Methodist and probably would have a lot to share with you.

kara

Zerbie

01-02-2008, 10:55 PM

I have been having a lot of responses to this topic today, but am distracted with other stuff going on. Want to pop in & say *something* before that train of thought chugs into the mists of time. :rolleyes:

Antony, to be blunt: I love you. :love::love::love::love::love:
I LOVE your new plans!! I wish you were doing this in Phoenix, I would totally check out your new organization. :D

I agree that the best thing one can be is authentic and open.
Now, having said that, I've known a lot of people who did not make the kind of choice you did, but who chose to live in a career-wise "dont ask dont tell" kind of tacit code (where being gay was an open secret so to speak) with those around them so that they could pursue careers where being gay & out might have become an issue. If they had not chosen to be complicit in their own oppression to the extent that they remained closeted, (if not "unsuspected" or undiscovered as gay, they were far from speaking openly of having a partner at home), they would not have had those careers. If they had not had those careers, many of the people whose lives they touched and impacted for the good would have been deprived of their teaching, affection, mentorship, guidance, talents, and love.

At this moment I am thinking specifically of a man who taught elementary school at my K-8 school when I was a kiddie in the 1980s. In the climate we lived in at that time, I am certain it would have been a problem if he had been out as gay - although such a thing was still pretty unthinkable in our environment then. I lost a bit of sleep back then at times, concerned that if the wrong people got word of him being gay and pressed the school board with anti-gay stupidity, that I could lose one of the best teachers I ever had, and every child after me would be deprived of his really special presence and talent. I wanted him to be able to live in open acknowledgment of who he was and the relationship he had, yet understood that if he had tried to do that, it was we young ones who stood to lose the most. Perhaps we might have lost him.:'(:'(

All this babbling is to say that while it is true that gay people making the choice not to disclose information while they remain in not-so-friendly workplaces are helpless participants in continuing their own oppression, it will not help matters for us to sit here and insist that all gay people in these types of circumstances are doing us all a disservice and that they really should come out. Let's not forget that many people who have made such choices are giving a great deal of good to this world which they might have been unable to give had they made the choice to come out and relinquished careers where they are in a position to give to others. They might or might not have found alternative paths for sharing their talent and gifts. But perhaps they are in the right place and giving in the right way already?
:love::love::love:

antonyh

01-02-2008, 11:31 PM

I agree that the best thing one can be is authentic and open.
Now, having said that, I've known a lot of people who did not make the kind of choice you did, but who chose to live in a career-wise "dont ask dont tell" kind of tacit code (where being gay was an open secret so to speak) with those around them so that they could pursue careers where being gay & out might have become an issue. If they had not chosen to be complicit in their own oppression to the extent that they remained closeted, (if not "unsuspected" or undiscovered as gay, they were far from speaking openly of having a partner at home), they would not have had those careers. If they had not had those careers, many of the people whose lives they touched and impacted for the good would have been deprived of their teaching, affection, mentorship, guidance, talents, and love.

I love you too Zerbie :love::love::love:

I'm glad you brought up the other side of the issue. I need some time to think about it and I'll reply later. Have a j-o-b now so I need to get to bed.

Hopefully other brilliant minds will reply sooner.

Gennee

01-03-2008, 12:02 PM

missionarymiles

01-03-2008, 02:33 PM

[/QUOTE]
My opinion now is that those of us who are gay and in the ministry do a disservice to all LGBT people by remaining in the closet. It signals that being gay is bad and should be covered up. If all gay church workers "came out" at once, think of what an impact it would have. (Think of all the gay Catholic priests!)
[/QUOTE]

As someone who just recently came out to himself, to God, and to his wife (she knew) I admire the spirit of what you have to say Anthony. I am in full time ministry and coming out to more than God and my wife would cost me everything. This is a conflict that I am engaged in each day. I have made a commitment though to this project and I intend to see it through. The integrity question for me will come when I tackle the question of what is next.

Hey I will have 15 years of missions church planting experience and speak three languages, anyone need that to start a church that embraces a true grace view of God?;);)

For those of us in Evangelical ministries the bigger decision is to accept a different hermeneutic and see Scripture differently. Once that is done, everything else is a question of timing.

MM

keltic63

01-03-2008, 03:25 PM

My opinion now is that those of us who are gay and in the ministry do a disservice to all LGBT people by remaining in the closet. It signals that being gay is bad and should be covered up. If all gay church workers "came out" at once, think of what an impact it would have. (Think of all the gay Catholic priests!)

As someone who just recently came out to himself, to God, and to his wife (she knew) I admire the spirit of what you have to say Anthony. I am in full time ministry and coming out to more than God and my wife would cost me everything. This is a conflict that I am engaged in each day. I have made a commitment though to this project and I intend to see it through. The integrity question for me will come when I tackle the question of what is next.

Hey I will have 15 years of missions church planting experience and speak three languages, anyone need that to start a church that embraces a true grace view of God?;);)

For those of us in Evangelical ministries the bigger decision is to accept a different hermeneutic and see Scripture differently. Once that is done, everything else is a question of timing.

MM

wow MM, sounds like you've made a long journey just since joining us here at soulforce!

antonyh

01-03-2008, 06:10 PM

What does a white handkerchief mean? and does it matter what pocket I keep it in? ;)

It symbolizes the purity of the Lord my friend :lol:

antonyh

01-03-2008, 08:21 PM

I am in full time ministry and coming out to more than God and my wife would cost me everything. This is a conflict that I am engaged in each day. I have made a commitment though to this project and I intend to see it through. The integrity question for me will come when I tackle the question of what is next.

Would it really cost you everything? This assumes that there is nothing for you on the other side of coming out.

Hey I will have 15 years of missions church planting experience and speak three languages, anyone need that to start a church that embraces a true grace view of God?;);)

You know what...you could start a church. You just won't be stamped with your denomination's name.

HarmlessEccentric

01-03-2008, 10:36 PM

I had a job in a fundamentalist church, my whole family belonged to the One True Church, and all my friends were part of the church as well. It seemed like there wasn't anything outside of it.

I got out anyway... but it wasn't easy or simple, and it didn't happen overnight. I had to find new work, and a new place to live, and a new community of friends. I didn't leave overnight; I took the time I needed to build a secure new life. Sometimes I felt so lost and lonely from everything I'd known. But in time, I saw the world opening up possibilities for me, and I felt like a girl raised in a convent who's been sent out into the world.

Making the transition from a life within a suffocating church to a life outside of it took time, planning, and emotional energy, but it was well worth it.

Pablo Rafael

01-04-2008, 12:09 PM

It is easy on this forum to say that everyone in the closet should come out. That is easier said than done in many cases. For those of us who have made church work a career, it is no small decision to come out. The consequences can be substantial.

I was one of those closeted for many years. When I first entered the teaching ministry, I hadn't even admitted to myself that I was gay. I didn't make a conscious effort to cover it up or to pretend to be something I was not.

As I came to realize I was gay, I was still had the mindset that being gay was evil. Therefore I did what I could, which was dedicate myself to a life of celibacy. I firmly thought that I was doing the right thing. I would serve the Lord and refrain from acting on my desires. Again there was no effort to lie or betray the LGBT cause. I felt trapped, and the only path I saw was in the closet.

It has only been recently that I have come to the realization that being gay is OK. I still want to serve the Lord and I still want to be in church work. But now I feel that I can't in good conscience stay in the closet. (Plus in all honesty I really desire to be in a relationship. A little selfish I guess.)

It might be easier or me to come out than a lot of men my age. Financially I don't have a lot to fear from the loss of a job. I don't have family concerns. And though for me I feel it is important to come out, I can't criticize others who have decided that now is not the right time.

Each person has to decide on their own path. For some that might be waiting to fully come out until a later time. But I do think it is important that those of us who are respected workers in the church do need eventually to come out and show people that ministry and being gay are quite compatible.

Pablo

Zerbie

01-04-2008, 12:22 PM

Yep. Thank you Pablo. That is correct. :love:

I think it is easy to fall into the trap when you are an LGBT activist of towing the line "Everybody should come out." As I see it, being born LGB or T does not obligate an individual to the entire LGBT community (which is too diverse for that, anyway.) And besides, didn't we become activists because we want to make the world better for all LGBT people? And doesn't making the world better entail respecting everyone's prerogative to make deeply meaningful - and sometimes costly - personal decisions on their own terms?

Let me draw a comparison we're all familiar with:
Does the Equality Ride exist for the glory of the riders? Or does it exist (in part) to give quiet sustenance to closeted gay kids at institutions where they may otherwise never hear a truly accepting voice? If the Equality Ride activists can do that for closeted gay youth, then why should we as activists be any less invested in support and respect for closeted gay adults who made a difficult decision in the way that they deem best for their lives?

Vanessa White

01-04-2008, 12:32 PM

Great point, Zerbie.

Equality Rides are a great example, to benefit the many. I mean, if I am recollecting accurately, the persons from those schools that seem to visibly come to SF after those visits isn't usually youths who now have the courage to come out, but rather, their peers, colleagues and friends who want to gain more understanding. I have anger and resentment at how some churches have not wanted to acknowledge or value LGBT persons. However, I think that it will all happen one purposeful step at a time. Sometimes we will be taking those steps together, sometimes alone. But coming out, no matter what a person's circumstance is, certainly is based on each individual, his/her situation, needs, and safety, emotional and physical. :love::love::love:

antonyh

01-04-2008, 11:25 PM

And doesn't making the world better entail respecting everyone's prerogative to make deeply meaningful - and sometimes costly - personal decisions on their own terms?

This thread started by looking at people in the ministry, specifically the Episcopal Bishops who are closeted while Gene Robinson and the American church "takes the fall". It also mentioned Seminarians I know who are openly gay and plan to enter the ministry by pulling the wool over the eyes of the hierarchy.

For something to be ethical, the motive, means and end need to be good. The 'end' of being ordained is good. But if your 'means' of getting there requires duplicity and lies, your actions are not ethical. Then there is the 'motive'. What sort of 'motive' animates a person willing to lie and deceive to enter and sustain their ministry?

Does the homophobic reality in most Christian denominations allow us to absolve duplicity and lies as understandable realities for LGBT spiritual leaders? Does the good they do for others some how make their actions acceptable? Should integrity be something we expect from a spiritual leader?

Like the anti-gay Anglican Bishop of Horsham. Like in the Haggard situation, a male blogger is claiming to have had a sexual relationship with him.

http://denniswine.blogspot.com/2008/01/regarding-bishop-of-horsham.html

Allegations of course, but honestly, does this do much for the church and the ministry? Who has more integrity, Robinson or Horsham? Does it matter?

Daniel

01-05-2008, 08:29 AM

For something to be ethical, the motive, means and end need to be good. The 'end' of being ordained is good. But if your 'means' of getting there requires duplicity and lies, your actions are not ethical. Then there is the 'motive'. What sort of 'motive' animates a person willing to lie and deceive to enter and sustain their ministry?

Does the homophobic reality in most Christian denominations allow us to absolve duplicity and lies as understandable realities for LGBT spiritual leaders? Does the good they do for others some how make their actions acceptable? Should integrity be something we expect from a spiritual leader?

Does the end (the 'good' that is done) justify the means (the motive)?

Just how 'good' is the 'good' when tainted with self-interest? With duplicity?

How is it that we too often expect honesty and integrity from everyone else but ourselves?

And I want to make something clear here: there is a price to be paid for coming out in conservative churches. I paid it. My husband paid it, who was fired from three church music jobs because when it became known that he was gay (they were all Catholic Churches btw).

But what is the alternative?

Sure - life is damn hard. And I am sorry for my 'hard line' about this issue about coming out. If everyone would come out right now the face or Christendom would change overnight. What stops that?

Fear! Fear of losing what little we have.

We need to give each other support and not excuses.

missionarymiles

01-05-2008, 02:07 PM

For something to be ethical, the motive, means and end need to be good. The 'end' of being ordained is good. But if your 'means' of getting there requires duplicity and lies, your actions are not ethical. Then there is the 'motive'. What sort of 'motive' animates a person willing to lie and deceive to enter and sustain their ministry?

Does the homophobic reality in most Christian denominations allow us to absolve duplicity and lies as understandable realities for LGBT spiritual leaders? Does the good they do for others some how make their actions acceptable? Should integrity be something we expect from a spiritual leader?

Presently I serve in a country that requires a "platform" to minister in because you cannot come in as open missionary. This means that we need to either run a legitimate business or perform some legitimate humanitarian work. Now this has caused intense debate over the last 20 years in missions circles because the ethics of saying you are doing one thing and then doing another has been questioned as legitimate. I see this as the same argument just different circumstances.

We have resolved that "ethical" question in ourselves by running a legitimate humanitarian service that meets peoples needs regardless of their faith or desire to hear about ours. However, we publically live our lives as Christians not hiding that so that all can examine it. This is difficult and some people believe we should be more discrete about openly living out our faith. Maybe I am making an argument for just coming out.:confused:

I would agree that people seeking to "infiltrate" the ranks of the clergy by lies are behaving with questionable ethics, in the same way, I believe that missionaries who hide their own faith are questionable. A visa is not worth a lie, yet the question here seems to be is changing a denominational culture worth a lie?