Hypocrisy Gone Wild: "The War on Christians," Dominionism and Projectionist Rhetoric.

[Emproph]

{Just to be clear, out of all the links here, the Real Player video from theocracywatch.org was the main inspiration for this thread, the rest of the links are supporting. (Note: If you don't have Real Player there are more options at the site}

Vision America (http://www.visionamerica.us) in conjunction with valuesvoter.org (http://www.valuesvoter.org) hosted a two day conference in DC at the end of March. Vision America was founded by dominionist (http://www.religioustolerance.org/reconstr.htm) Rick Scarborough. Tom Delay on Chris Matthews the other night said that he too helped start it.

According to their web site it “gathered some 400 Christian activists.” Speakers included Tom Delay, John Cornyn (R-TX), Phyllis Schlafly, Gary bauer, Alan Keyes, all your standard cast members waging the war they profess to be victims of. Basically, you name it/them, they’re either part of it or ascribe to it. GW, Dobson, Falwell, Sheldon, the Family Research Counsel, Concerned Women for America, etc.

I’ve been doing some research on this and as Googling goes, one thing leads to another. I finally came across this interesting video (http://www.theocracywatch.org/av/video_dominion.ram) at www.theocracywatch.org that seemed to sum it all up. It's called "The Rise of Dominionism," and is the most comprehensive documentation illustrating their dominionist reconstructionist theocratic agenda I’ve seen so far. It does an excellent job of connecting the dots, is short attention span in doing so, clearly mentions all it’s sources and is 44minutes long.

If you don’t have time yet or want to get an idea of the content I would recommend this article (http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/7235393/the_crusaders/?rnd=1144037475375&has-player=true&version=6.0.12.1212) by Rolling Stone (April 7th 2005).

There is a concerted effort to keep their true goals a secret, namely that of turning America into a theocracy. No big surprise there until you realize that theocracy is what they mean when they say “Christian nation,” and that their idea of a “Christian nation” is one that not only criminalizes anyone who disagrees but puts them to death, from gays and "abortionists" to lukewarm Christians or denominations that doesn’t live up to this ideal.

To be fair, not everyone leading these groups espouses to every ideal so some distinctions must be made, however, These people and their organizations are ALL connected.

Gays and abortion are just interim window dressing to keep those of us who would live as one, divided. In regard to that statement, I recommend this page (http://www.choice101.com/14-win-with-losing-issue.html#WinWithLosingIssues) from the site www.choice101.com. It and it’s related sites are an excellent resource to get an overview of their intentional use of controversy to gain power.

Projectionist rhetoric is another thing these people all have in common, and may be a silver lining. Like the joke “how do you know when a politician is lying? -When their lips are moving.,” applies amply.

Basically every time they are describing the “enemy” or what they perceive to be a “threat,” they describe themselves and their agenda to a tee. The "Gay Agenda" is a perfect example. The only question is, to what extent is it's fabrication by conscious design to malign vs. the delusional projection of their own nefarious agenda.

Being an election year, their charge of persecution makes perfect political tactical sense.

The implications of all this are astounding. What better way to get the Armageddon ball rolling that to light a fire (Iraq) in the tinderbox we call the mideast? I don’t know if that was their main intention but even if the war was only about oil and/or a strategic base in the mid east, the above information explains why these religious leaders foam at the mouth in support of it.

All in Jesus’ name of course.

[Lydia]

There is a concerted effort to keep their true goals a secret, namely that of turning America into a theocracy. No big surprise there until you realize that theocracy is what they mean when they say “Christian nation,” and that their idea of a “Christian nation” is one that not only criminalizes anyone who disagrees but puts them to death, including any Christians or Christian denomination that doesn’t live up to this ideal.

What I don't understand is why any christian group (or individual) would make this their goal. Even within the "umbrella" of christianity there are rifts among and within the Eastern Orthodox, Catholics, and Protestants. These disagreements would only be made worse if Christians as a whole were put in charge of something as large as an entire nation.

Is this something that you worry about a lot?

[Blixster]

It's something interesting, I think to read about and research perhaps, however... Dominionists will get nowhere, because their 'ideal' nation will be / is so ... conservative and specific that many people would disagree with the ideals because not everyone in every church denomination anyways has the same ideas about what should happen, and like Lydia said, there are rifts among different groups anyways.

I mean, I know that they're just power-hungry "God-sent" mongrels, but... they won't get anywhere. There is no way that they could take over, the people just wouldn't allow it... they couldn't work with the Judicial System or the Legislative Branch either... no way, no how.

[keltic63]

It's something interesting, I think to read about and research perhaps, however... Dominionists will get nowhere, because their 'ideal' nation will be / is so ... conservative and specific that many people would disagree with the ideals because not everyone in every church denomination anyways has the same ideas about what should happen, and like Lydia said, there are rifts among different groups anyways.

I mean, I know that they're just power-hungry "God-sent" mongrels, but... they won't get anywhere. There is no way that they could take over, the people just wouldn't allow it... they couldn't work with the Judicial System or the Legislative Branch either... no way, no how.

I'd like to think that is true, but I'm not convinced. They've already amassed a fair amount of power. it seems that many Republicans have allied themselves with them. The Republican party certainly depends on them.

[Zerbie]

Hey Blixster - what you wrote is exactly what I said 10 years ago. When those extremist groups' membership lists were half their current size. When they weren't launching constitutional amendments to deny civil benefits to unmarried couples (gays in particular). When total abortion bans were not being considered by multiple states. When it was unheard of for a pharmacist to be allowed to decline to fill a doctor's prescription.

Nowadays the groundwork is being set down for just such a theocratic move - and it will be gradual. First they must secure the courts. All the hoopla about activist judges, yet they are pushing to get some extreme jurists on the bench all across the country.

Take a look at the We The People Act. You can google it - it hit Congress late in 2005 - it would forbid the courts from HEARING any case in which someone is in dispute with a "religious value." IE: if that act had actually passed and been in existence a few years ago, the SC would not have been allowed to HEAR Lawrence V Texas, those guys would just languish in prison.

Yeah.

So be aware that however much of an uphill climb the extremists have to reach a theocratic goal, they ARE nevertheless following a plan to get there, and the basic parts of it are already in operation.

10 years ago when someone said that to me, I made a mental note never to take them seriously again. I wish now that I had taken them seriously at the time - because I thought it was ridiculous to believe that the things happening now even COULD happen. And I was TOLD they would. I laughed. (shakes head)

[Emproph]

What I don't understand is why any christian group (or individual) would make this their goal. Even within the "umbrella" of christianity there are rifts among and within the Eastern Orthodox, Catholics, and Protestants. These disagreements would only be made worse if Christians as a whole were put in charge of something as large as an entire nation.
-Is this something that you worry about a lot?
As far as worrying about it a lot, I’d say that I’m extremely concerned about it. I’ve been through the conspiracy theory thing before, governmental and Biblical armageddon-wise. To that extent my ‘Paranoia’ is at least tempered in that I've worked through my own extremist nature and also feel I have an Idea of the mindset behind blindly believing something like Revelations in the Bible. From what I've seen over the past couple of years, they will stop at nothing and stoop to any level, the information I'm presenting here just helps explain why, at least that's the way I'm taking it. To me it fits.

I’m talking about the extremist evangelicals here and I think you and Blixter made the same point about the plethora of divisions within their own coalitions. I guess what I’m saying is that right now they are willing to set their differences aside to counter we godless heathens, whether gay, pro choice or live by the “no moral compass” ideal of live and let live.

It’s doomed to failure because as you guys said there are so many differences between them, even if they did gain control, it would just be another power struggle as to which denomination is the actual correct one, even amongst themselves they all think they are the only ones who are right.

Those denominations and/or leaders that are the most extreme are going to be the ones who are willing to stoop to any level in the name of God are going to fight the hardest and the longest to secure all the power.

My point is that it’s the extremists who are not going to give up. This is what they want, and their philosophy is that the ends justify the means, which justifies any ‘sinful’ behavior in order to secure the “kingdom” for Jesus’ return.

It is unlikely that they will succeed, but as we are seeing they can and are doing A LOT of damage in the process. I’m saying we need to be aware of it because it’s not going to go away anymore than their beliefs are, which is why I mention projectionist rhetoric.

I watch CSPAN, the news channels and religious channels like a hawk, and to the extent that I see these people speak, for the most part I can read them, it's often what they don't say that's so telling.

They're serious, don’t have a clue yet think they know better, that’s the part that I find dangerous. It’s like they have horse blinders on and then condemn peripheral vision as a hallucination of the devil.

I think what Zerbie mentioned about the "We the People" Act was even metioned in that video from theocracywatch.org, restricting even access to the courts, that would include ALL gay people.

-And to think, had Zerbie just taken a conspiracy theorist nut seriously, ten years ago, none of this would be happening... Tsk, tsk, tsk tsk. (:lol:)

[Lydia]

As far as worrying about it a lot, I’d say that I’m extremely concerned about it. I’ve been through the conspiracy theory thing before, governmental and Biblical armageddon-wise. To that extent my ‘Paranoia’ is at least tempered in that I've worked through my own extremist nature and also feel I have an Idea of the mindset behind blindly believing something like Revelations in the Bible.

It's always good to know where people are coming from. Thanks for sharing that.


guess what I’m saying is that right now they are willing to set their differences aside to counter we godless heathens, whether gay, pro choice or live by the “no moral compass” ideal of live and let live.

That I can see.

(continued in my next post, as putting it all together in 1 post was making everything ridiculously long. :O)

[Lydia]

(continued from above post, as I seem to be writing a novel today. ;) )
It is unlikely that they will succeed, but as we are seeing they can and are doing A LOT of damage in the process. I’m saying we need to be aware of it because it’s not going to go away anymore than their beliefs are, which is why I mention projectionist rhetoric.

First, I'd like to say that I agree with you: Some of those extremists are very scary. And actually, they're the reasons why I've supported groups like NARAL (an abortion rights group) and the ACLU in the past. I don't agree with everything that the ACLU or NARAL stand for, but they seem like a much better option than a theocracy to me. I'd much rather have myself in charge of my body and what I can or can't say than someone else.

That said, can I offer you an alternative view of the future?

Think back to the '60's in the US. There was a lot of stuff going on then -let's pick the civil rights movement as an example to keep this simple. Ok, so for most of the 60's (and I think even into the 70's?) various pastors and lay people of all types of backgrounds were committed to bringing real change to the lives of Black Americans. They marched, petitioned, signed southern blacks up to vote, etc etc.

At the same time, the KKK was pretty active. There were quite a few lynchings, people disappeared. I can think of at least one (although I'm sure there were many more) US senator who openly agreed with racial segregation and who ran his campaign on that belief for years.

I think something similar is happening here and now. There is a wave of bigotry sweeping the nation, but there is also a wave of....I don't want to call it "civil rights for gay people," as I know there is some controversy in that idea, but I do get the sense that there are many of us out here who aren't about to sit back and do nothing.

I think our wave is going to win out. It's going to take time, and there will be setbacks along the way - The legislation and societal changes of the 60's didn't make racism disapper, but they did help to usher in a time when it's illegal to discriminate in the work force or when renting out an apartment and where there are no longer any states who prohibit interracial marriages - but we are going to get there.

My hope is that things will really start to snowball into some permanent change once our generations (Gen X and Gen Y) take over the "reins" in the coming years. :pray:

[schoolboi]

If you find this thread interesting you will really enjoy reading Mel’s new book due out this fall. Dominion Theology is a key topic.

[Lydia]

Hey
Nowadays the groundwork is being set down for just such a theocratic move - and it will be gradual.

That said, these things do really scare me. My SO (a Canadian citizen) has said more than once that he never wants to move to the states, mostly for the reasons listed above.

I hope it doesn't happen, but I can see how a theocracy could be in the works.

[NathanATX]

I used to think my mom was a nut for all the conspiracy theories she got into... and now I watch this video...

I'm creeped out...

Can you just imagine living in a terroristic theocracy... and then going to war with other theocracies...

Have you seen "V for Vendetta?" www.vforvendatta.com

[dewdrop_world]

For a really bleak outlook, try the opening chapters of Margaret Atwood's "The Handmaid's Tale" in which a group of extremists of exactly this stripe stages an armed coup, basically killing off the entire executive and legislative branches.

What's really frightening about that scenario is, as she tells it, none of it is outlandish. It's not likely to happen, but it could.

Sleep tight, kids! :p
-hjh

[Emproph]

Boy here’s a blast from the past. 1987 I think, but apropos none the less.

Video (http://youtube.com/watch?v=yLlGyIizW04&search=World%20Party%20Ship%20of%20Fools)

Live Performance (http://youtube.com/watch?v=xSeR9HnDaWo)
-Pretty good for live. :tup:

[revtj]

It's something interesting, I think to read about and research perhaps, however... Dominionists will get nowhere, because their 'ideal' nation will be / is so ... conservative and specific that many people would disagree with the ideals because not everyone in every church denomination anyways has the same ideas about what should happen, and like Lydia said, there are rifts among different groups anyways.

Dominionists are already there. They have influenced government in destructive ways already. The president walked out on the Kyoto Accords because of his Christian belief in having dominion over the earth (and because big energy corporations have dominion over the administration).

This theology is a big threat to America and planet Earth, I wouldn't take it too lightly. Emproph, thanks for your post. It's a subject we could all do some boning up on. I look forward to the day (I think!) when Lydia's generation is leading the world because I see such intelligent, globalistic insight in them...however, there has to be a planet left for them when their day comes!:o

[Lydia]

For a really bleak outlook, try the opening chapters of Margaret Atwood's "The Handmaid's Tale"

It was the most depressing book I've ever read. It's also one of my favourites.

Did you know that Margaret Atwood lives in Toronto? I haven't run into her yet, but I keep hoping that I will one day. :lol:

[Lydia]

]however, there has to be a planet left for them when their day comes!

Good point.

[Zerbie]

For Liberal Crozier, so you can see some of our previous conversations along these lines.