Outing in Church

[Daniel]

http://www.towleroad.com/2008/01/choir-member-on.html


Choir Member on Outing Spree Hits DC Baptist Church

A female choir member at the D.C. Greater Mount Calvary Holy Church has sent a letter to its pastor, outing over 100 church members, mostly male members of the choir, the Washington Blade reports:

"The outings added to the inner turmoil experienced by a large number of gays who attend services at the 7,000-member Greater Mount Calvary Holy Church, located on Rhode Island Ave., N.E., according to a gay former member who provided copies of the e-mails to the Blade. 'I will be leaving the choir at the top of the year because 80 percent of the tenors are homosexuals and act more like a female in choir rehearsal than I do,' the church choir member said in one of her e-mails to Bishop Alfred Owens Jr., the church pastor. The e-mail, sent in December, identifies about 45 fellow church members as gay. She sent a second e-mail to Owens on Jan. 2 identifying another 62 church members as gay. 'The following people I am asking you to monitor very closely and my prayer is that you will sit them down from their ministries,' she told Owens in the December e-mail. 'Because they are ushering in the presence of sin, lies, a spirit of homosexuality and sexual spirits.'"

The female choir member also copied the email to over 300 additional church members on a Yahoo group.

The pastor would likely be sympathetic to her concerns, given his past: "Owens became the subject of media attention in April 2006 when he used the word 'fag' in a sermon on Palm Sunday. 'It takes real men to confess Jesus as Lord and Savior,' Owens said in the sermon, which was recorded by the church. 'I’m not talking about no faggot or no sissy,' he said. 'Let the real men come down here and take a bow — all the real men. I’m talking about straight men … praise God that you’re straight.' The church’s web site includes a listing of twice-monthly sessions of a ministry called 'Breaking the Chains of Homosexuality,' which it says helps gays change their sexual orientation through counseling and prayer. Minister Dennis Sawyers, an expert in 'ex-gay' ministries, is listed as the leader of the church’s efforts to counsel gays."

Sylvia Rhue, director of the National Black Justice Coalition’s religious affairs program said that many gays attend that church because they like the "traditional setting" they find there. A setting, which, at this particular church, is now in turmoil.

Oh....I can just feel the love, can't you? :rolleyes:

What's next I wonder, burning's at the stake?

I hope and pray that the gay members of this congregation- all those tenor's in the choir- find their voice right quick and stand up for themselves!

[Zerbie]

OMG!!:eek: :mad::mad::mad:

That woman sounds like she has a serious mental health problem.
And what a messed-up, rotten pastor. :mad:

I read this and think, Thank God I never go to church. :pray:
:mad: This is why I do NOT want anything to do with churches.

***
Seriously, those poor tenors!:( Why not hire 'em for some nice 'affirming' church and put those voices to good use someplace where they'll be wanted? :love:

[HarmlessEccentric]

Those poor choristers; I know just how it feels to feel caught between worlds like that. They'd be welcome in my church, though they'd massively outnumber the rest of the choir. Maybe we could start a new men's ensemble. While I'm a big proponent of coming out... everyone deserves their moment to be brave and make the decision to do it.

What a bitch.

[Kris Johnson]

Maybe I've been working in a small town in rural MN too long, but I just couldn't believe this!!

A church member publicly outing (if indeed all those she names are truly gay, which is never acknowledged) that number of folks and then to have a pastor actually condoning that most unChristian attitude! I just can't get my mind around it!

I realize that as just the mom of a young gay man ( a mom who has no issues with his orientation) I haven't experienced a lot of this kind of evil, but it truly disturbs me when I hear of it.

For what it is worth, I am making a promise to myself, my son and the GLBT community that this kind of hatred will NOT be tolerated in any church that I serve as pastor.

I make my most heartfelt apologies to all of you who deal with this kind of bigotry and hatred on a daily basis and pledge to do my part to end it.

My church will always be a safe and welcoming place for the GLBT community.
Kris J.

[andrewlittle]

Maybe I've been working in a small town in rural MN too long, but I just couldn't believe this!!

A church member publicly outing (if indeed all those she names are truly gay, which is never acknowledged) that number of folks and then to have a pastor actually condoning that most unChristian attitude! I just can't get my mind around it!

I realize that as just the mom of a young gay man ( a mom who has no issues with his orientation) I haven't experienced a lot of this kind of evil, but it truly disturbs me when I hear of it.

For what it is worth, I am making a promise to myself, my son and the GLBT community that this kind of hatred will NOT be tolerated in any church that I serve as pastor.

I make my most heartfelt apologies to all of you who deal with this kind of bigotry and hatred on a daily basis and pledge to do my part to end it.

My church will always be a safe and welcoming place for the GLBT community.
Kris J.


And you call yourself a Christian! THANK GOD.

This kind of "shepherding" always bothers me, even when it's about other things. Breeds nut-jobs.

[Daniel]

I wrap my virtual arms around you and give you a big and long hug. Your son is so damn lucky and blessed!

Much love to you!

:love:

[tdogg]

And who did this horrible deed to so many? Someone who calls herself a "Christian"??? Nothing Christian about this, but yes, most certainly some condition that needs a treatment. This person needs to apologize in person, and then seriously consider having CHRIST in her life instead of her own ego.

Kris, welcome (probably missed your introduction post)!!! You sound like an awesome mom with an understanding of the message Jesus came to earth to teach. Glad you are here! Thanks for your kind and compassionate words.

T

[RedneckDyke]

I don't have a bible in front of me..... but isn't there something in there about not backbiting and spreading gossip about people in church. The woman who wrote this letter is a vicious gossip. Sounds like she has personal ill-will toward someone and has made a vendetta. This should not go on in a church, although it does, all the time, in all kind of churches.

Ugh, I don't know what to say about the pastor. I don't know whether to be cuss or cry. I just hope the choir fellers find a better church. I bet there's several gay-friendly churches in a big city like DC. Any of them would be happy to have these guys. Church choirs are often short of men.

[Gennee]

To me outing someone without that person's knowledge is wrong and detrimental. I would also like to know what is the definiton of a "real man"? Does one have to be straight to be a real man? It's sad that someone who calls herself a Chirstian will damage others because of her misguided zeal.

Gennee

[Unmasked]

It is sad, so many of us are caught in a whirlwind, and we don't know who to trust. Many young men like myself are suffering with identity crisises, and to be rejected by the one place that we should be able to find acceptance and safety is outright wrong.

[Alecto]

So, I guess I"ll ask the next logical discussion question (unless it's better in a new topic?): How do we feel about outing in general? Is it ever acceptable / morally justified?

[Unique0503]

Thank you for your words of encouragement. Too bad you are so far away. My family and I would be right there praising God with you.

Question: How do you balance the inclusion of Gays/Lesbians with the word of God they everyone uses to keep us out of church and/or leadership in church?

[Daniel]

It is sad, so many of us are caught in a whirlwind, and we don't know who to trust. Many young men like myself are suffering with identity crisises, and to be rejected by the one place that we should be able to find acceptance and safety is outright wrong.

I agree with you. That said, I believe firmly that that other part of the equation is finding a place of worship where one is accepted, and not only that- affirmed. To put it blunty: one doesn't want to cast one's pearls before swine- as it were. But as you say- what happened in the article above is wrong. A despicable act.

So, I guess I"ll ask the next logical discussion question (unless it's better in a new topic?): How do we feel about outing in general? Is it ever acceptable / morally justified?

I wonder about that. But then, there was the case of the Haggard and a certain Mr. Jones, remember that? Was that outing justified? I think so. Why should the man (Haggard) be allowed to play both sides of the aisle with no consequences? Have sex - and even pay to have sex- with a man and then bad mouth gay folks from the pulpit? Hello! Hypocrisy incarnate.

Mr. Jones caught a lot of heat from some in the supposed gay rights community after that. He broke an unwritten code of honor, which, to my mind, is something akin to the mafia: one doesn't rat on one's own. Well. If it's harming one's own one does, doesn't one? At least the mafia (in fiction) would have the guy bumped off quietly! :lol:

All this aside, I think there is something more disturbing here. And it's this. The church in question, if I'm not mistaken, is an African-American church, which, insitutionally speaking, has a big problem with accepting gay folks. The African-American population (church going that is) can be very homophobic.

To illustrate from experience: my hubby- who serves as a church organist- once played for a Moravian church here in NYC. The congregants were African-American. After a while it became apparent that his race (white) and his orientation (gay) became an issue with a few women of the church- in his choir actually. In fact, one women in particular tried to get him fired- for being gay. His being white only complicated matters, racially speaking.

The men of the church? They defended him. That is- the straight men. the gay men hid- as it were- in the corners- as if doing so would keep them from being noticed.

I'm pointing this out to say one thing: the African-American community has it's own house to clean as far as discrimination towards gay folks is concerned. And it astonishes me to hear the rhetoric that is bandied about- as if it all comes down to which population (gay vs black) is victim number 1. That's just plain stupid. There are enough rights for everyone. No gay person is taking a piece of the American Pie away from any African-American.

God love us all -equally.

[Steven E. Webster]

Thank you for your words of encouragement. Too bad you are so far away. My family and I would be right there praising God with you.

Question: How do you balance the inclusion of Gays/Lesbians with the word of God they everyone uses to keep us out of church and/or leadership in church?

"Everyone" does not mis-use and abuse the Word of God to exclude LGBT people. There are many Christian churches that are as committed to the scriptures as any that do not intepret the scriptures to bolster anti-LGBT prejudices that are more rooted in culture than they are in the divine.

Steven Webster

[kara speltz]

"Everyone" does not mis-use and abuse the Word of God to exclude LGBT people. There are many Christian churches that are as committed to the scriptures as any that do not intepret the scriptures to bolster anti-LGBT prejudices that are more rooted in culture than they are in the divine.

Steven Webster

I'm going to post below some URLs that will help you find welcoming and affirming churches near you. There are literally thousands now that have reconciled and welcome us. Check these out. Kara

http://gaychurch.org/Find_a_Church/united_states/united_states.htm
http://www.christianlesbians.com/congregations/
http://www.clgs.org/3/welcoming_churches.html
http://www.welcomingchurches.com/

[Steven E. Webster]

I'm pointing this out to say one thing: the African-American community has it's own house to clean as far as discrimination towards gay folks is concerned. And it astonishes me to hear the rhetoric that is bandied about- as if it all comes down to which population (gay vs black) is victim number 1. That's just plain stupid. There are enough rights for everyone. No gay person is taking a piece of the American Pie away from any African-American.

God love us all -equally.

Let's be careful not to knock African-Americans as a whole--I'm not saying you're doing this, Daniel. I understand that these gay choir members know full well that they have a homophobe in their pulpit, and they know (or should know) that there are African-American congregations in DC that are welcoming of LGBT persons. There are white LGBT people that to do the same dang thing--they attend and support homophobic churches when they could choose a more inclusive congregation. If you're going to stay in a homophobic church, you should at least be working to change it, and not silently supporting it.

Steven Webster

[daniel Ray]

Aman! Preach it brother Stephen! If homosexuals retreat to thier own churches (though sometimes that is the best solution depending on the circumstances) they are right where the homophobic, "moral majority", "christians" want them.

[Daniel]

Let's be careful not to knock African-Americans as a whole--I'm not saying you're doing this, Daniel. I understand that these gay choir members know full well that they have a homophobe in their pulpit, and they know (or should know) that there are African-American congregations in DC that are welcoming of LGBT persons. There are white LGBT people that to do the same dang thing--they attend and support homophobic churches when they could choose a more inclusive congregation. If you're going to stay in a homophobic church, you should at least be working to change it, and not silently supporting it.


But this doesn't seem to be the case in most conservative churches, does it? A lot of gay people leave them once they figure out they are gay, don't they? The one brave gay person who come's in that kind of environment (which can be quite patriarical) usually gets shown the door or told they must live a life of celibacy.

All too often the person coming out feels alone- and is standing alone- even though half the choir is gay: no one wants to rock the boat- and by doing so- fall out of it. So- unfortunately- a Don't Ask Don't Tell situation stays in place.

I think it takes a person of unusual self-knoweldge and confidence to stand up to this kind of oppression. One needs help to do such a thing: we should not discount the degree to which internalized homophobia keeps gay people in conservative churches from being part of 'change'. First- they have to take off their 'chains'.

[hkhb15963]

"Ushering the presence of sin, lies....."

Christians too often forsake the words of Christ with regard to Pharisee's in order to cling to the words of Paul with regard to homosexuals.

This lady is at best a perverse version of a "Paulian" because I am convinced that there is no "Christ" in the self-proclaimed title of "Christian" she bears.

Jesus does not say a word about homosexuality, he does not address the subject.... HOWEVER.... he is fairly adamant about the Pharisees and their pompous, judgmental, elitist mentality. Christ was so adamantly against pharisees that he literally insults them in scripture calling them "White-washed tombs" implying that although they may appear holy and without sin externally, internally they contain only rotten decay. What better description for this unhappy woman and her equally destructive pastor.

I submit that she is ushering in something far more destructive than any of the unsubstantiated claims she has made against the *gasp* effimenate tenors. She is ushering in unfounded and unabashed hatred, which in the language of Christ and of real Christians, equates to MURDER.

[Zerbie]

:eek:

THANK YOU!!!!! For saying "Paulian." :lol: I grew up avoiding Christians b/c of what I learned a year or two ago to be basically an outgrowth of something from Paul. I have been saying to myself for a couple years, "well then, why don't they call themselves Paulians?"

I always thought the best way to practice the values Christ teaches was to avoid churches and avoid christianity as much as possible. It's really sad that these people have done that to their own church - leading so many, like me, to believe Christianity is a terrible monstrous thing. Well, perhaps Paulianity is???? :confused::confused:

Now, I don't know if I would "equate" what that woman is doing with murder, but I will come with you so far as to observe that the kind of attitude she is spreading around could indirectly lead to it, perhaps.

[hkhb15963]

I dont know if you've read my "Hi, My Name Is..." Post, but I, like the author of this thread (presumably since he's an Evangel Grad) have had quite a few dealings with the dramatic clash that homosexuality and christianity seem to produce when in the same proximity. My life's ambition was to be a minister, mostly because I love people, and firmly believed that Christianity was the most effective tool for helping people. After all, the tagline at most churches is "come experience life to its fullest" or "be set free" or "empowering disciples to make a difference" etc etc. Having been on staff at a "mega-church" I have seen the underbelly of control and fear-motivated propoganda at its worst, and I completely understand why anyone who's taken a bite out of the american church would promptly spit it back out. Throughout History, religion, on whole, has been responsible for some of the most cruel, inhumane, and unjust acts. (see http://www.skeptically.org/enlightenment/id7.html )

The real problem is not a single religion, although Christianity and Paulianty (haha) certainly hold their fair share of discrepancies. The issue is when something as personal and intimate as spirituality is mandated by a committee, board, denomination, govt entity, etc. The teachings of Christ are beautiful, as are the teachings of nearly all the worlds religions, its the interpretation of those teachings with intent for exclusivity and intolerance and hatred for others who disagree, that produce the hostile environment for GLBT's and any other "other" that is out there in the world. As for hatred and murder being equal, I think the purpose of that teaching is to show that our internal "sins" are just as relevant as our external "sins". To hate another is to wish them removed, either by wishing them dead or wishing them to be someone else....

Luckily, for most GLBT's being someone else just isn't an option anymore.

[Daniel]

I dont know if you've read my "Hi, My Name Is..." Post, but I, like the author of this thread (presumably since he's an Evangel Grad) have had quite a few dealings with the dramatic clash that homosexuality and christianity seem to produce when in the same proximity. My life's ambition was to be a minister, mostly because I love people, and firmly believed that Christianity was the most effective tool for helping people.

The real problem is not a single religion, although Christianity and Paulianty (haha) certainly hold their fair share of discrepancies. The issue is when something as personal and intimate as spirituality is mandated by a committee, board, denomination, govt entity, etc. The teachings of Christ are beautiful, as are the teachings of nearly all the worlds religions, its the interpretation of those teachings with intent for exclusivity and intolerance and hatred for others who disagree, that produce the hostile environment for GLBT's and any other "other" that is out there in the world.

And when I came out I left the AG church. No two ways about it. I wasn't about to- or capable then- of making an effort to stay in the church. It didn't enter my mind as an alternative. And in those years (80's), there was only the very beginnings what has now become gay congregations which are pentecostal. And to be truthful, I'm not sure how I would feel being in that kind of environment now. I've morphed into a Buddhist who leans towards - at least outwardly- the Episcopal Service.

I love the way you state matters and your perspective. Like Zerbie- I hadn't thought of the extent to which Paulianty (or Paulianity?) is part and parcel of modern Christianity- and it's effect on gay people. You've really put your finger on something by giving this aspect a name.

Glad you are here!

[Zerbie]

.

Like Zerbie- I hadn't thought of the extent to which Paulianty (or Paulianity?) is part and parcel of modern Christianity- and it's effect on gay people. You've really put your finger on something by giving this aspect a name.

!

Just to be clear, I meant that I had been putting it in exactly those terms and thought I was the only one.

To hk: I do not misunderstand the relevance of hatred as an inner enemy. That is a very relevant conversation to have. I am wary of "equating" words to murder b/c the actions are not the same. They can have a cause/effect, which is why it's relevant. But if we say speech is equal to murder, here we go into the 'hate speech' worm can, not to mention by saying this woman's words are equal to murder, we open ourselves to the arguments saying *we* are the intolerant ones for wanting no view but "ours" expressed. It is such a wormcan.

I do understand why you said it. It's a step I'd like to qualify, personally, is all.

I hope that was clear - I have to log off literally this very second.

[BruceChris]

I remember the story of Denmark, when it was occupied during the second world war. The Germans gave orders that all Jews must wear a yellow Star of David, to make themselves plainly visible, apart from the ordinary Danes.

So the king of Denmark called for a gathering of the Danish people, and when they had assembled, he walked out on the balcony in front of them, proudly wearing a yellow Star of David.

It was quite a fashion statement, soon everyone was wearing it, and it drove the Germans nuts.

I would hope that some respected heterosexual member of that church would come to church wearing a pink triangle, and ask his friends and fellow church members to do the same.

Or as John Kennedy, when confronted by the East Germans about the future sovereignty of Berlin, said, "Ich Bein Ein Berliner" !


http://www.glsenco.org/Resources/GLBT%20History/pink_triangle.htm

Peace and somewhat militant Love, Bruce Chris

[Daniel]

In fact, it's a fabulous idea.

Isn't it interesting that we tend to think that we are the ones that have to 'fix' the problem, when, in fact, the 'solution' can be found outside the 'box'.

And to go laterally a bit- as is my wont sometimes- you post reminded me of the words of Oscar Wilde:

Always forgive your enemies - nothing annoys them so much.

While I imagine Wilde meant to be witty- and he was a very witty man- there is an element of truth in what he said. And your reminding us of the actions of the courageous Danish would seem to be a variation of Wilde's observation.

Nothing is so befuddling - and mind expanding- as when people stop playing by the rules set for them by others.

Great post BruceChris!

[pnggrad79]

Anyone who outs someone without their knowledge or consent is just wrong. This person is obviously got issues. OMG! Is it any wonder that wonderful people like Zerbie are turned off to church when there as so many assholes in it. I think Jesus knew that, too! :rolleyes:

[hkhb15963]

To hk: I do not misunderstand the relevance of hatred as an inner enemy. That is a very relevant conversation to have. I am wary of "equating" words to murder b/c the actions are not the same. They can have a cause/effect, which is why it's relevant. But if we say speech is equal to murder, here we go into the 'hate speech' worm can, not to mention by saying this woman's words are equal to murder, we open ourselves to the arguments saying *we* are the intolerant ones for wanting no view but "ours" expressed. It is such a wormcan.

I do understand why you said it. It's a step I'd like to qualify, personally, is all.

I hope that was clear - I have to log off literally this very second.

I certainly hear your perspective Zerbie, and I must say that I value your analytical abilities and appreciate your propensity for concise debate. I certainly agree that the consequences of murder and hatred differ, especially with regard to penalty in the physical world. However, in the realm of theology, in dealing with issues of sin and spiritual consequence with regard to holiness as perceived by mainstream christianity, the evil of murdering is on the same level as the evil of hatred. 1 John 3:15 says "Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer..." My comment was intended to highlight the blatant disregard of this theological principle. I carefully chose the phrase: "In the language of Christ ...." because these are not necessarily my opinions expressed or implied, simply a broader context of the same "system of belief" that is so often misused to justify spiritual violence. If any intolerance is present, it is the intolerance of her own religion against her actions. Scary!