Hello, my name is Andrew... and Homosexuality and the Bible: some questions.

[yelyarb]

Hello to everyone! I registered to start a little discussion, and maybe have a few questions answered. A little about myself, eh? Well, I'm 23, not very worldly (yet!) and I'm an amateur philosopher. I'm a lover of life and all it has to offer. I'm also very curious about people and their lives, in particular what makes them happy or gives them purpose.
Here is an email I sent to Jeff Lutes the Executive Director of Souldforce, please feel free to attach your own name to the top and answer the questions accordingly. I look forward to the discussion this (hopefully) spawns. Please excuse any ignorance, I like to enter discussions as, for a lack of a better term, an innocent =D Thanks a bunch,

Handy Andy =P


Dear Jeff,

I was reading a page on your website (http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-gay-christian) and I was struck by the assertion that no Jewish prophet speaks about homosexuality. I am not Christian myself and, quite frankly, the question of sexuality has always seemed insignificant when considering the character of a person, or their moral quality. Here are my questions, which you may find challenging but, I assure you, are very sincere and not intendended to offend.

Is Moses considered a prophet of both the Jews and Christians?
Is Moses the author of the chapter titled Leviticus in the Bible?
In the King James Version of the Bible, does Moses say in Leviticus 20 :13 that: "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."?
Would it be a misinterpretation to say that Moses seems to be condemning homosexuals to death?
While Jesus does not specifically deny homosexuals, does he say in Matthew 5 : 17 : "Think not that I have come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy but to fulfill."?
Is Jesus saying in this passage that the law, as laid down by Moses in Leviticus, is to be preserved?

I wonder why GLB or T 's would want to be part of a religion that seems to clearly deny them (please correct me if I am wrong in this assumption). I understand the very human need for contact with the divine, and even the desire for religion. However, why haven't they subscribed to religions that are more open to alternative lifestyles? I've been curious about this since the issue of gay marriage and rights within the church came to the public forum. If you could answer my questions, it would be greatly appreciated. I can imagine that running a website and participating in daily life takes up a great deal of your time, so please take your time replying; I'm very patient with correspondence.
Thank you for you time, I look forward to a response.

In peace and love,

Andrew Brayley

[sailaway58]

What the Bible Says - And Doesn't Say - About Homosexuality (http://www.soulforce.org/pdf/whatthebiblesays.pdf)



• DEUTERONOMY 22:13-21
If it is discovered that a bride is not a virgin, the Bible
demands that she be executed by stoning immediately.
• DEUTERONOMY 22:22
If a married person has sex with someone else’s husband
or wife, the Bible commands that both adulterers be
stoned to death.
• MARK 10:1-12
Divorce is strictly forbidden in both Testaments, as is
remarriage of anyone who has been divorced.
• LEVITICUS 18:19
The Bible forbids a married couple from having sexual
intercourse during a woman’s period. If they disobey, both
shall be executed.
• MARK 12:18-27
If a man dies childless, his widow is ordered by biblical law
to have intercourse with each of his brothers in turn until
she bears her deceased husband a male heir.
• DEUTERONOMY 25:11-12
If a man gets into a fight with another man and his wife
seeks to rescue her husband by grabbing the enemy’s
genitals, her hand shall be cut off and no pity shall be
shown her.

[Pablo Rafael]

Andrew,

I wil give you my understanding of the questions you asked. Just a little background: I am fairly conservative in my religious beliefs. I grew up in a Lutheran household and now go to Catholic church. I have been a church worker (teaching ministry) all my adult life.


Is Moses considered a prophet of both the Jews and Christians?
Is Moses the author of the chapter titled Leviticus in the Bible?
Moses sometimes is considered a prophet. However, when the Bible is divided into "the law and the prophets", he does not fit into the "prophet" section, but into the "law" section. It is generally agreed by Biblical scholars that Moses did not write the first five books of the Bible. Moses is the main character in the books, but not the author. (Especially those sections that took place after his death.)


In the King James Version of the Bible, does Moses say in Leviticus 20 :13 that: "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."?
Would it be a misinterpretation to say that Moses seems to be condemning homosexuals to death?
The Old testament holiness code did indeed condemn some homosexual activity. In fact in that very male-centered culture, it condemned any activity where men took on the role of a woman. The Cannanite religions around Israel engaged in various sexual practices as part of their religion. The people of Israel were to be set apart. The dietary laws, the sabbath laws, the laws governing sexual behavior were all part of the holiness code that reminded the Israelites that they were different from their neighbors.

While Jesus does not specifically deny homosexuals, does he say in Matthew 5 : 17 : "Think not that I have come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy but to fulfill."?
Is Jesus saying in this passage that the law, as laid down by Moses in Leviticus, is to be preserved?

Actually I believe that Jesus is saying just the opposite. In the New Testament era, the holiness laws were done away with. Jesus kept the laws that no one had yet been able to succesfully keep. Saint Paul (under the direction of the Holy Spirit, I believe) was one of the most effective agents in doing away with those laws. The New Testament church adapted their religion to apply to a mainly gentile population. Amost all the Old Testament laws were done away with including the practice that once marked all men as people of God, circumcision. People who use the Leviticus passage to condemn present day gays are hypocritical, because they themselves must admit that the church is no longer bound by those laws that were done away with by Christ's, life, death and resurrection.

I wonder why GLB or T 's would want to be part of a religion that seems to clearly deny them (please correct me if I am wrong in this assumption).
Just my own personal experience is this: I never chose to be a Christian. I think it was the grace of God that called me to be a follower of Christ. I believe that the love of God is shown to us through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. I never chose to be gay. I believe that my sexuality is part of what God created for me. I have many difficulties with organized churches and people who use the name "Christian", but I have no problem with the teachings of Bible as shown to us through Christ. And not ALL of organized Christianity is anti-gay. More and more Christians are coming to realize that God loves all people regardless of sexual orientation. Christianity as an organized religion has always been flawed and imperfect, but the love of God that comes to us by grace through faith is perfect.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[paul]

Hey there Handy Andy :wave:.

The bible, which informs the beliefs of over 20,000 forms of Christianity, is quite a book. You demonstrated, fairly logically, how someone can take some scriptures and say that the bible teaches one thing. You'll find many here who will have a different take, and they'll use the same bible.

As sailaway pointed out, "it may not be as clear as you [or some] think." The bible, the BIG TEN, says "thou shalt not kill." Yet God, in the same book, purportedly tells Israel (God's "chosen people") to wipe out entire groups of people-men, women, children animals.

Even "God's son" (Jesus) is purported to have said regarding the law, "...you have heard it said, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, but I say to you if a man smite thee on the right cheek, turn to him the other...." Have fun reconciling that one with "I have not come to destroy the law....":cool:

If the bible teaches one thing clearly it would be not to follow the written word but to follow what "God" is saying, which is a nifty can of worms to open.

I'm kinda fond of the "law of love." It seems to recognize that we humans "know in part and see in part" and because of that we should maybe be careful about reaching conclusions based on written rules.

[andrewlittle]

...because there are a great many ways to interpret scripture. By the way, Andy, I'm Andy - nice to meet you.

Is Moses considered a prophet of both the Jews and Christians?
I agree with Pablo especially on this one.
Is Moses the author of the chapter titled Leviticus in the Bible?
Literalist or fundamentalist Christians and Jews believe this to varying degrees, and it represents something of an unasked question for many adherents. Most theologians from both religious backgrounds, however, DO NOT consider Moses to be the author. As Pablo pointed out, he is the subject of some of the texts. (Oh, oh - that's twice I've agreed with Pablo.)
In the King James Version of the Bible, does Moses say in Leviticus 20 :13 that: "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."?
The KJV is probably the least likely bible translation to be held up as evidence unless, again, it is done so by a fundamentalist or literalist (which in this case is a humorous misnomer). The KJV is most commonly held as the inerrant English translation (the 1611 version because the 1606 had typos and translation mistakes). It has influenced the English translations ever since especially in regards to Lev 18 and 20.

The earliest Hebrew and Greek manuscripts, which predate the KJV by several hundreds of years, as well as the earliest Latin Vulgate versions say something entirely different. When literally translated into English, they all read, "A man shall not lie with a male on a wife's beds; they have committed an abomination ..." The death part, just as in many places in Leviticus, is the penalty for adultery - it's just in this case a man lying with another man ON his wife's bed. We tend to gloss right over the wife's bed part, because it doesn't fit our preconceived bias.
Would it be a misinterpretation to say that Moses seems to be condemning homosexuals to death?
In short, yes. It wasn't Moses, and it wasn't homosexuals being condemned.
While Jesus does not specifically deny homosexuals, does he say in Matthew 5 : 17 : "Think not that I have come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy but to fulfill."?
Is Jesus saying in this passage that the law, as laid down by Moses in Leviticus, is to be preserved?
As evidenced in a litany of gospel passages, the laws of Moses and the prophets referenced the laws Moses brought to the people (10 Commandments) and the declarations of the prophets. The Levitical laws were formulated by the Levitical priesthood - the priests that took over after Moses was dead - and these are the laws that Pharisees held up as normative and for which they were battled by Jesus.

I wonder why GLB or T 's would want to be part of a religion that seems to clearly deny them (please correct me if I am wrong in this assumption). I understand the very human need for contact with the divine, and even the desire for religion. However, why haven't they subscribed to religions that are more open to alternative lifestyles? I've been curious about this since the issue of gay marriage and rights within the church came to the public forum. If you could answer my questions, it would be greatly appreciated. I can imagine that running a website and participating in daily life takes up a great deal of your time, so please take your time replying; I'm very patient with correspondence.
Thank you for you time, I look forward to a response.

In peace and love,

Andrew Brayley

Now here I can't answer you - I'm not LGBT. There are few, if any, "religions" that embrace LGBT in their entirety. Most - whether they are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, etc. - have groups that embrace and those that condemn. The religion of one's upbringing can be very important to many people, so it makes sense to me that many LGBT folk will try to find ways to worship within their tradition if possible.

I may be reading into your question - forgive me if I am - but it seems to be zeroing in on the question, "Why can't LGBT folk leave us [fill in the blank] to our beliefs and just stay away from us? Why do they persist in trying to claim to be [fill in the blank]?"

The answer for me is that many people take what the preacher/leader say as gospel. If the information is erroneous and misrepresented to begin with, it affects peoples beliefs and behavior. What favors would LGBT be doing other people in their tradition to leave the unchallenged bias intact?