science and christianity...but still screw that evo-stuff

[drewcaine]

I used to not care much about science, mainly because they hurt animals and it's lumped together with evolution (call me immature but I have compassion), but last year I came to understand that REAL science isn't as bad as it seems.
To me, science is an inferior way of understanding the phenomena that God has created. Real science doesn't contradict the existence of God, and wouldn't really rely on chance, since there really is no such concept as luck (we merely interpret things as "luck", mostly when we're ignorant of God and our destinies...but that's merely a phylosophical way of putting it).
I have a lot more to say, but I don't want to miss the bus, so...take care everyone, and I'd like to enjoy a discussion over this later.
drewcaine

[Zerbie]

The division between science and religion really disturbs me. Science and religion are two pursuits pursuing the same basic discoveries about the nature of the universe, ourselves, etc. One looks outwardly and the other inwardly, one measures and quantifies, the other is more esoteric. They work best together, not separated as we have done.

[Pablo Rafael]

The division between science and religion really disturbs me. Science and religion are two pursuits pursuing the same basic discoveries about the nature of the universe, ourselves, etc. One looks outwardly and the other inwardly, one measures and quantifies, the other is more esoteric. They work best together, not separated as we have done.

I have to agree with Zerbie.

I think that religion is the exploration of the spiritual world, and science is the exploration of the natural world. They work in harmony together. I believe that God created the universe and all the laws of physics and biology. God has given us minds to understand that universe.

The conflict seems to come when we try to use science to explain God or try to use the Bible to explain science. God is not a measurable, observable being; it is foolish to define him and his work in scientific terms. Likewise I think the Bible shows us the spiritual world; to try to use it to explain nature is illogical and counter to its purpose.

Both forces are at work in our world. Neither are in conflict. Only people's interpretations of science and the Bible are in conflict.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[antonyh]

The division between science and religion really disturbs me. Science and religion are two pursuits pursuing the same basic discoveries about the nature of the universe, ourselves, etc. One looks outwardly and the other inwardly, one measures and quantifies, the other is more esoteric. They work best together, not separated as we have done.

Brilliant Zerbie. If you want to read a fantastic work that talks about the very different ways of knowing in science and metaphysics, read an Introduction to Metaphysics by Henri Bergson. It is not an easy read but if you spend time with his argument, it will renew your faith in the very real knowledge that comes from being inward and from the metaphysical and how that way of knowing differs from science.

The books is available on Google Books:
http://books.google.com/books?id=D24YAAAAIAAJ&dq=henri+bergson+metaphysics&pg=PP1&ots=qCLvhVNII8&sig=ZyD8U1xxK6AnZ84vJkSKPO3cg7g&hl=en&prev=http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Henri+Bergson+Metaphysics&btnG=Search&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title&cad=one-book-with-thumbnail#PPP1,M1

Or in PDF format:
http://books.google.com/books/pdf/An_Introduction_to_Metaphysics.pdf?id=D24YAAAAIAAJ&output=pdf&sig=n0A5MM_1nvg4ycNRfgmvhjoD6Tw

[BruceChris]

Ideally, science should be about matters of fact, and religion should be about matters of faith.

P&L, BC

[Gregory_de_Bois]

The division between science and religion really disturbs me. Science and religion are two pursuits pursuing the same basic discoveries about the nature of the universe, ourselves, etc. One looks outwardly and the other inwardly, one measures and quantifies, the other is more esoteric. They work best together, not separated as we have done.

Beautiful. It is such a false dichotomy set up by both sides that one must choose between the two. Although Bruce, I think I would say that there are matters of fact and faith in both. For example, it is by faith that we believe in atoms, we have never seen them, but we believe they are there. And it is a fact that perfect love casts out fear. Religion and Science are like the two strands of DNA, eternally entwined in a symbiotic relationship that should never be severed. But on the whole, I guess you are right: Science generally is more about facts and religion about faith.

[tdogg]

I think that religion is the exploration of the spiritual world, and science is the exploration of the natural world. They work in harmony together. I believe that God created the universe and all the laws of physics and biology. God has given us minds to understand that universe.

The conflict seems to come when we try to use science to explain God or try to use the Bible to explain science. God is not a measurable, observable being; it is foolish to define him and his work in scientific terms. Likewise I think the Bible shows us the spiritual world; to try to use it to explain nature is illogical and counter to its purpose.

Both forces are at work in our world. Neither are in conflict. Only people's interpretations of science and the Bible are in conflict.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

This is the ultimate explanation! Really, they don't contradict, but cover two different areas which are intertwined. It's only the interpretation (by imperfect humans) which is contradictory. Well said.

Ideally, science should be about matters of fact, and religion should be about matters of faith.


And BruceChris has summed it all up on one statement. Perfect. :love:

[keltic63]

I posted part of this in that thread we had going about our favorite hymns. I think it bears repeating here. Every time I read this thread, this particular hymn comes to mind:




Praise the Source of Faith and Learning


Thomas H. Troeger



Praise the source of faith and learning
who has sparked and stoked the mind
with a passion for discerning
how the world has been designed.
Let the sense of wonder flowing
from the wonders we survey
keep our faith forever growing
and renew our need to pray:

God of wisdom, we acknowledge
that our science and our art
and the breadth of human knowledge
only partial truth impart.
Far beyond our calculation
lies a depth we cannot sound
where your purpose for creation
and the pulse of life are found.

May our faith redeem the blinder
of believing that our thought
has displaced the grounds for wonder
which the ancient prophets taught.
May our learning curb the error
which unthinking faith can breed
lest we justify some terror
with the antiquated creed.

As two currents in a river
fight each other's undertow
till converging they deliver
one coherent steady flow,
may we blend our faith and learning
till they carve a single course
and our seeking and our yearning
join in praising you their source:

Praise for minds to probe the heavens,
praise for strength to breathe the air,
praise for all the beauty leavens,
praise for silence, music, prayer,
praise for justice and compassion
and for strangers, neighbors, friends,
praise for hearts and lips to fashion,
praise for love that never ends.

[scott snedeker]

Anyone who claims to know the complete order of the universe and the precise intention of its creator is a true genius indeed!......in their own mind. They would indeed have an I.Q. of greater than 20,000,000,000,000,000,000. The rest of us use a tangible model that an average I.Q. of 100 (the median of the species) can use. Since this model is simplified, it is not adequate to explain every part of the universe and its creator's intention.

Religion and Science are thought Disciplines. They are methods of thinking based on a paradigm or assumption. The proof to me of the value of a thought discipline is if it works for the indivdual. If it cultivates love. If it culltivates life. If it heals. If it emancipates.

If a thought discipline has the opposite effect then I would consider it a poor one and of negative value, takes away, extinguishes or taints love, destoys rather than creates.

The are examples of "Scientific Delrium Madness"* as well as religious fanaticism.

There are also examples of soul-saving spirituality (my most recent exploration) and Life-saving scientific discoveries.

Pagans are also environmentalists. Science and spirituality are part of each other for us.

I think the value of all thought disciplines are dependent on contiuous checking up.

*The Byrds

[Daniel]

I think the value of all thought disciplines are dependent on contiuous checking up.


And as a doctor you know a thing or two about the check up! :D

I just received my recent issue of Tricycle Magazine: The Buddhist Review, which, as matter of fact, has Gandhi on the cover. There are some interesting article about his legacy and how nonviolent action can be used to transform our world (those interested in things Gandhi might want to pick up their own copy).

However, there is another article called The R Word: Why miltant atheists and fundamantalists both get religion wrong.

Interesting stuff. Especially considering how those on both sides of the science/religion debate have been interacting.

I haven't read it yet, but the title is provocative and lends itself to this discussion. When I get to it, I'll let you know the gist of the argument.

[drewcaine]

Interesting...indeed, science is a way to understand the natural world. It also helps us understand ourselves even better.
drewcaine