Is being 'nice' nonviolent?

[Daniel]

That's what I've been thinking about lately.

What I'm getting at here is the tendency- and I've had it myself- to be 'nice' in order to 'pass', get what I want or avoid a sticky situation. You know the drill: someone or something comes at you, and rather than meet it head on, you find yourself cowering, shrinking, acting like everything and everyone out there has all the 'power' but you.

Man. Have I been there and done that.

My first relationship. I let myself be walked all over. Oh sure. I did my share of walking over others. That was the game. Use or be used. But that's not love, is it? Nothing enlightened about that, is there? I got clued into what I was playing into when someone pointed out to me that I had to "get off playing the victim or the victimizer".....she said...."It's the same coin...different sides". Can't say I've got that lesson down pat, but at least I know a little better when I'm playing either side. That's my hope anyway.

And then there is the matter of 'passing' which we've discussed here before. Another form of being 'nice' to get by, get through the gauntlet, out of the spotlight, and back into the shadows.

I call it the nice-gay-man-syndrome. However, I don't think there's anything remotely nice about it. Passive-aggressive is more like it.

Here's what I think: I've seen myself be that 'nice' gay man, and I look at that person with some compassion and- I have to say- a good deal of anger. Yes. I did the best I could under the circumstances at the time. I played nice to make nice. Whom did it serve? Me? The people I cared about? No....in the long run.....most emphatically no. I just enabled everyone around me and their dysfunction- too much of a coward to fill my own shoes- too afraid to breath the air in the room- too afraid to take up the space alotted to me- to afraid to simply be what and who I am. To afraid to confront things as they are.

Past or present- it's all the same thing. Do we rise to the occasion or not? And if so, how? By what means? What enables us to fill our own shoes? Role models? Encouragement? A swift kick in the pants?

What? There has to be some motivation factor, right?

I say no: here is nothing nonviolent about being 'nice'. If anything it is self-violence. Being 'nice' is showing a false grinning face to the world, which endeavors to conceal a fearful mind. It's the face of a child- no matter how old- who believes that he/she is powerless. And in believing so- is powerless- to act- to be- to live authentically as the God given creature we are all meant to be.

I welcome your comments and observations.

[Alecto]

I think that being "nice" is nonviolent, but that it's usually not nonviolent resistance. There's no "resistance". I think that there is a destinction to be made in allowing harm to come to yourself and causing that harm to yourself (subtle though it may be).

In the end, I think that nonviolence, by itself, is totally useless. It doesn't change anything, and essentially ends up just getting you killed. Nonviolent resistance is a totally valid way to combat corrupt systems though (and I won't pretend it's the only way, nor do I think I believe it's the only valid way).

I have a HUGE struggle with which things to get pissed off about.
I know for a fact that part of the way I deal with getting all depressed is to end up getting (self?)righteously pissed off instead. And, as much as I think all of the issues I see are totally valid and could stand to be brought up, I still don't want to be "that guy" that "gets offended by everything". I don't know where the lines are. I don't know which issues are worth my time and energy: which things will actually get people to think. I don't know when it's appropriate to "rise to the occasion" and when I should pick my battles. The subtle things that bother me, I still tend to feel that maybe it's not my place to even really say something. And the more overt ones (though much, much rarer in my life) still tend to leave me with a mental slap in the face: I'm always entirely so shocked that someone just shouted "queer" out the car window (or whatever it is that time) that I can't even to begin to process a reaction. I guess I'm saying I don't have any (helpful) answers, but I struggle with some of your same questions.

[sailaway58]

What I hate about being nice is that it quiets conversation, and there is no exchange of ideas.
Yes, you can be nice during a debate, but usually being nice means not talking about equal rights or what ever rocks the boat at all.
We don't want to upset the apple cart. I say throw the apples and let the debate happen. Not many times in my life have I been called nice anyway.
Now your situation is different but it feels the same. I can go on being patronized and tolerated, or I can stand and be counted. When we do we are told we are cramming it down their throats. I've been told I spend too much time with "those people" and no one wants to hear about gay issues.
So do I stay nice and keep peace? or do I force the issue when I can?
Jesus was not too nice many times. He stood for the weak and voiceless, he called the religious sinners and he never stopped his message.
Yet, I find myself in a bit of a quwandary. I am angry that my church does not know what unconditional is and only pretends to love others but in my anger I must not forget to show love to those I have found fault.
Most of them are really good people.
Anyway I will not be silent, I am so not gay the thought of becoming a wall flower makes me nervous!;)

[Zerbie]

Let's make a distinction between "acting nice" out of blind habit, without any "nice" feelings inside in order to please, on the one hand, with on the other, treating people with a degree of basic courtesy and politeness when attempting to resolve a conflict.

The first is passive and habitual, and diminishes the "nice-be-er" (nice be-er??!:p) by placing him in that passive, helpless, powerless role which as Daniel rightly points out, both creates and adds fuel to (helpless) rage.

The second, treating the other with courtesy and respect - even in a conflict situation - is empowering to the self at least, and at best fuels mutual respect and fair treatment. It takes a strong person to treat others politely and kindly even in conflict, without rolling over and showing his underbelly in defeat.

Theoretical Guy #1 is in a situation where he wants something, let's say from a bureaucratic system. The system starts to &%$ him over. In order to get what he wants, he buttons his lips and doesn't say anything contradictory, does not speak out or rock the proverbial boat, and plays "nice guy" because someone else in more power than he should take care of his needs. System scr*ws him. He hits an explosion of rage internally, which he does not voice, and in some passive-aggressive way bows out, quits his job, switches insurance companies or some such according to the situation, never saying why. For years after, he places all the responsibility and blame for what happened on the system.

Theoretical Guy # 2 is in the same situation. He sees the system starting to screw up, so without getting nasty, he calls someone and says, "Hi, how ya doin'? Look, I've got a situation here that isn't going according to the (employee manual, company's promise, guarantee, -- whatever. . . ) and as a result X has happened (I've been overcharged, not reimbursed, something seems amiss with my promotion review, -- whatever. . . .) can you possibly tell me what's going on?" Guy #2 makes the conversation as polite and pleasant as possible for Bureacratic Employee, and continues this pattern of polite but firm insistence through to whatever levels of "power" are needed to get answers, and hopefully resolve situation X. If situation X still does not resolve, then only later comes time to call in heavy artillery, get strongly-worded letter from lawyer if applicable, etc.

They were both "nice" to the people involved, but one placed himself in a victim role, and the other, regardless of outcome, acted from a place of empowerment.

'Acting nice' as a way of shrinking from conflict does not work. Being polite, fair, courteous *while dealing with conflict* often does work, AND it is the action of an empowered person.

[Alecto]

I think it's only fair to add to your scenario, Zerbie, that often enough the problems we encounter are NOT necessarily protected by the employee manual, company promise or whatever. Fairness isn't a given (hence the frustration and the rage).

[Zerbie]

I think it's only fair to add to your scenario, Zerbie, that often enough the problems we encounter are NOT necessarily protected by the employee manual, company promise or whatever. Fairness isn't a given (hence the frustration and the rage).

Oh sure. I wasn't talking about activism or social change, though, I was thinking in context of 'everyday' difficult moments and lumps & bumps. To run with your input, then we'd have to examine 'nice' and 'empowerment' with relationship to social justice and perhaps activism. Maybe that's what everyone else was already talking about! :p ;)

[Alecto]

I think Daniel wrote out this BIG idea, and ...yeah. Perhaps the areas to which we are applying it say more about us than the idea itself?

(I do definitely get really frustrated when people like my dad start flipping out at some customer service type person who holds NO responsibility for whatever his problem is)

[Zerbie]

I think Daniel wrote out this BIG idea, and ...yeah. Perhaps the areas to which we are applying it say more about us than the idea itself?

(I do definitely get really frustrated when people like my dad start flipping out at some customer service type person who holds NO responsibility for whatever his problem is)

:lol:

Getcha. :lol:

I think that in the absence of a context for Daniel's question, we're all inventing back-contexts for our answers. :p:p

[Vanessa White]

I see the degree of niceness, in terms of being powerless and making oneself a victim, a part of one's self that has the potential for us to "grow out of" as we mature. As we develop a strong, solid sense of self. I absolutely, wholeheartedly believe that we all have the potential for that. And, while we are waiting to have that self-loving aspect show itself, we are perpetrating violence upon ourselves by letting ourselves get stepped on, stepped over, or having the crap beaten out of us, figuratively and literally. I am not judging us by having this potential- shit, I was there. I was the doormat, I think I helped invent the doormat type of personality. and, that IS, in my opinion, a form of violence. Severe, self inflicted spiritual/emotional, and maybe even physical violence. We think our ourselves as so worthless, nonimportant beings, that we don't advocate on our own, and other's behalf. That type of niceness is best spoken in my mind by Daniel referring to it as a form of "passing"; again, I am NOT in judgment of those that do that, it can mean literal survival. But, at what cost?

On the road to nonviolent resistance, being nice, but even more specifically, being peaceful and self-assured in our demeanor can help to serve our needs effectively; and even if it still does not bring about the end which we desire, at least we have been peaceful and committed to the process without giving up part of our SELVES.

There is another aspect of nice that I have been bugged by, which may or may not qualify as the first one I spoke about. And, that is those that are being nice in a way that is not because they feel afraid to speak up, and not because they are fighting for a cause, but because the person is being manipulative/fake or not authentic in their manner. I always try to find the best in a person, but I have met people, not many, who just are not authentic at all. But try to pretend that they are. Those people don't frustrate me as much as they frighten me. Why? Because, if I take their "niceness" to be genuine, and it is not, I am totally vulnerable.

And for those most sinister in that way, that is what they bank on, persons being vulnerable enough to be totally victimized. So, what have I learned? To keep my heart open without getting screwed over. So, I am a bit guarded than I have ever been. But, I know that my heart and soul are worth it enough to give them that protection from others.

[Daniel]

I am running off to work.....but want to thank you for your lucid and illuminating post. As well, a big note of thanks to Alecto for bringing the word 'resistance' into the disussion.

Keeping the heart open.....

[tdogg]

There is a huge difference between 'nice' and 'respectful'. Being nice isn't always a good thing, being respectful always is. 'Nice' could actually be passive-aggressive depending on the motive. Treating others with respect, even if we are extreme disagreement, is more in line with non-violence.

First and foremost, we must learn to treat ourselves with respect. Then treating others that way will be automatic. In my life, I see where I did not treat myself with respect, so that resulted in my being 'nice' to everyone and not standing up for myself (or others). Now, with newfound self-respect, I am striving towards treating everyone with respect, even those I consider my greatest foes. I don't have to agree or be 'nice' to them, but I must respect them as fellow human beings, with thoughts, opinions, feelings and emotions.

[Zerbie]

There is a huge difference between 'nice' and 'respectful'. Being nice isn't always a good thing, being respectful always is. 'Nice' could actually be passive-aggressive depending on the motive. Treating others with respect, even if we are extreme disagreement, is more in line with non-violence.

First and foremost, we must learn to treat ourselves with respect. Then treating others that way will be automatic. In my life, I see where I did not treat myself with respect, so that resulted in my being 'nice' to everyone and not standing up for myself (or others). Now, with newfound self-respect, I am striving towards treating everyone with respect, even those I consider my greatest foes. I don't have to agree or be 'nice' to them, but I must respect them as fellow human beings, with thoughts, opinions, feelings and emotions.

Brava!! What a genius response! Thank you for encapsulating the essence of this conversation in such clear, brief terms. You hit upon so many truths here, T. You're wonderful! :love::D

Now get back on the couch or the bed and LIE DOWN!! You're home sick? Go sleep!! :love:

[paul]

Let's make a distinction between "acting nice" out of blind habit, without any "nice" feelings inside in order to please, on the one hand, with on the other, treating people with a degree of basic courtesy and politeness when attempting to resolve a conflict

This is where my mind went with this...immediately.

To me, motive is the foundation for any action. Why am I being "nice'? To appease or because nice is the right thing to do? And if it's the right thing, does it always come across as "nice?"

Use or be used. But that's not love, is it?

No. Nor is it freedom or freeing. Love is independent of the recipient. If it isn't, is it love?

If I'm "nice" because I believe in nice and want to be nice no matter what, then I am free no matter what the response or result. But if I am only being nice to effect a result am I really being nice?


We think our ourselves as so worthless, nonimportant beings, that we don't advocate on our own, and other's behalf. That type of niceness is best spoken in my mind by Daniel referring to it as a form of "passing"; again, I am NOT in judgment of those that do that, it can mean literal survival. But, at what cost?

Oh, this is good. Vanessa. Nice becomes a sort of lip service and as such perpetuates abuse because if provides a forum for abuse.

Did I just say the same thing 3 not so different ways? Thinking outloud.:rolleyes:

[scott snedeker]

.

I call it the nice-gay-man-syndrome. However, I don't think there's anything remotely nice about it. Passive-aggressive is more like it.
..........

I say no: here is nothing nonviolent about being 'nice'. If anything it is self-violence. Being 'nice' is showing a false grinning face to the world, which endeavors to conceal a fearful mind. It's the face of a child- no matter how old- who believes that he/she is powerless. And in believing so- is powerless- to act- to be- to live authentically as the God given creature we are all meant to be.

I welcome your comments and observations.

I couldn't agree more. I see this as over reaching your emotional/spiritual development. If I'm not through being angry for a tresspass but pretend I'm above anger and rage, then I am acting unctiously insincere. Gives me an urge to puke!

Fear and dislike of being treated unfairly motivate "covering." And a I have stated before in many posts, fear-based decisions have had the worst outcomes for me!

However, if unvarnished expression of my feelings will result in more trouble than it is worth then prehaps an exit line like the one below could be employed?

"What you just said causes me to be feel very unsettled. I think it would be wise to end our conversation before any thing provocative is said that we would regret later."

If the other persists, I might turn away and walk saying "Call me next week if you like, but Now is not the right time."

I think it communicates that boundaries have been violated and negative feelings provoked without counter-transferrence of negative emotion in a situation where that would be disadvantageous.

[Vanessa White]

Fear and dislike of being treated unfairly motivate "covering." And a I have stated before in many posts, fear-based decisions have had the worst outcomes for me!

Agreed Scotty. I have come to understand about myself, especially in the last two years or so, that most of my unhappiness, and outright life disasters, have been a result of fear based thinking and actions. I still have fear at times, but it is no longer in control. Fear is at the root of all that creates self and other-hatred.

"What you just said causes me to be feel very unsettled. I think it would be wise to end our conversation before any thing provocative is said that we would regret later."

If the other persists, I might turn away and walk saying "Call me next week if you like, but Now is not the right time."

I think it communicates that boundaries have been violated and negative feelings provoked without counter-transferrence of negative emotion in a situation where that would be disadvantageous.


Letting go of fear I think coincides with one's ability to establish firm boundaries, because fear of reaction/repercussion I think is often why we don't set those boundaries in the first place. Setting firm, appropriate boundaries is one of the most self-loving behaviors that I know!!! :love:

[antonyh]

There is a huge difference between 'nice' and 'respectful'. Being nice isn't always a good thing, being respectful always is. 'Nice' could actually be passive-aggressive depending on the motive. Treating others with respect, even if we are extreme disagreement, is more in line with non-violence.

First and foremost, we must learn to treat ourselves with respect. Then treating others that way will be automatic. In my life, I see where I did not treat myself with respect, so that resulted in my being 'nice' to everyone and not standing up for myself (or others). Now, with newfound self-respect, I am striving towards treating everyone with respect, even those I consider my greatest foes. I don't have to agree or be 'nice' to them, but I must respect them as fellow human beings, with thoughts, opinions, feelings and emotions.

I find myself agreeing with you with some reservation. I respect my adversary as someone made in God's image and fully capable of changing her or his heart. I do not respect the evil in my adversaries heart. I do not respect the evil that may spring up to oppress me as a queer person. When we take non-violent direct action we often will be viewed as disrespectful. Think back to the equality ride. There were campuses howling disrespect when Soulforce stepped on their property. So to me non-violence does require the highest respect but it will not always be perceived that way especially if you feel that the evil you nurture in your heart is right.

[Zerbie]

I find myself agreeing with you with some reservation. I respect my adversary as someone made in God's image and fully capable of changing her or his heart. I do not respect the evil in my adversaries heart. I do not respect the evil that may spring up to oppress me as a queer person. When we take non-violent direct action we often will be viewed as disrespectful. Think back to the equality ride. There were campuses howling disrespect when Soulforce stepped on their property. So to me non-violence does require the highest respect but it will not always be perceived that way especially if you feel that the evil you nurture in your heart is right.

Well I agree with both of you! :p

We must BE respectful of peoples' beings, even if opposing their actions. (Hope I become capable of this fully someday:pray:)

But however respectful we ARE, by dint of the fact that we oppose them, they are likely to view us as disrespectful. I think we can expect that. We are not responsible for an opponent's thoughts - we are responsible for *ours.*

[keltic63]

Well I agree with both of you! :p

We must BE respectful of peoples' beings, even if opposing their actions. (Hope I become capable of this fully someday:pray:)

But however respectful we ARE, by dint of the fact that we oppose them, they are likely to view us as disrespectful. I think we can expect that. We are not responsible for an opponent's thoughts - we are responsible for *ours.*

hey! don't be getting all uppity! ;)

[andrewlittle]

But however respectful we ARE, by dint of the fact that we oppose them, they are likely to view us as disrespectful.

hey! don't be getting all uppity!

I thought this was a typo at first, but then Steve's post drew my attention to the word.

Damn, I thought I knew every four letter word there was.

Okay, on with the discussion at hand.

[keltic63]

I thought this was a typo at first, but then Steve's post drew my attention to the word.

Damn, I thought I knew every four letter word there was.

Okay, on with the discussion at hand.

Come and see the violence inherent in the system. Help! Help! I'm being repressed!

Oh, what a giveaway! Did you hear that? Did you hear that, eh? That's what I'm on about! Did you see him repressing me? You saw him, Didn't you?

[Zerbie]

hey! don't be getting all uppity! ;)

I saw this right after it was posted, and didn't get it. It confused me.

Then I come back to find:

I thought this was a typo at first, but then Steve's post drew my attention to the word.

Damn, I thought I knew every four letter word there was.

.

:confused::confused::confused:
Now, more confused.


Come and see the violence inherent in the system. Help! Help! I'm being repressed!

Oh, what a giveaway! Did you hear that? Did you hear that, eh? That's what I'm on about! Did you see him repressing me? You saw him, Didn't you?

Context and meaning completely evade me. . . .:confused:

Confuséd.

[keltic63]

I saw this right after it was posted, and didn't get it. It confused me.

Then I come back to find:



:confused::confused::confused:
Now, more confused.




Context and meaning completely evade me. . . .:confused:

Confuséd.

when blacks joined together in the civil rights movement, whites felt that they were being disrespected by "uppity" blacks. when we stand in opposition, we are perceived as being disrespectful, and thus my "uppity" reference. It helped that you used a rare word "dint" so I could illustrate just how uppity you've become :D

for some strange reason, andy's post reminded me of Monty Python's "Holy Grail" the quote about repression is from that movie.....it might be better not to ask why that came to mind, and please don't do any psychoanalysis as it won't bode well for me.

[zephyr013]

As I read through this thread, the phrase "kill them with kindness" came into my head.

To me, kindness and niceness are mutually exclusive.

I feel that the difference between being kind and being nice is this: kindness involves an acceptance of imperfection as a result of untruth in the other person... a reaction of unconditionally loving.

Being nice requires no true emotion, definitely not love, in my opinion. It occurs as a result of "passing" as Daniel described.

In short, kindness is a necessary product of the spiritual state of non-violence. "Niceness" is not.

[scott snedeker]

when blacks joined together in the civil rights movement, whites felt that they were being disrespected by "uppity" blacks. when we stand in opposition, we are perceived as being disrespectful, and thus my "uppity" reference. It helped that you used a rare word "dint" so I could illustrate just how uppity you've become :D

for some strange reason, andy's post reminded me of Monty Python's "Holy Grail" the quote about repression is from that movie.....it might be better not to ask why that came to mind, and please don't do any psychoanalysis as it won't bode well for me.


I made one new year's resolution in 1998:

"I will not explain my jokes!" :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

So far I have been good at keepng it ten years later. :good:

..........And now for something completely different...........

729

[keltic63]

I made one new year's resolution in 1998:

"I will not explain my jokes!" :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

So far I have been good at keepng it ten years later. :good:

..........And now for something completely different...........

729

I almost made that statement.....but it was for Zerbie, and since she didn't understand all my stuff in the Valentine's thread, I couldn't leave her hanging on this one.

[Zerbie]

I almost made that statement.....but it was for Zerbie, and since she didn't understand all my stuff in the Valentine's thread, I couldn't leave her hanging on this one.

Thanks. Or I would have had to try and ignore the last 5 or however many posts.

So, did my point get made? I was making a serious point.

Whereas, now I'm trying to recall the holy grail movie, and keep wondering if that's the one where the guys all get savaged by the fluffy killer bunny. Is it?

[andrewlittle]

So, did my point get made?

Whereas, now I'm trying to recall the holy grail movie, and keep wondering if that's the one where the guys all get savaged by the fluffy killer bunny. Is it?

YES! On both counts.