"Homosexuality next to Satan himself"

[daniel Ray]

"I believe that the spirit of homosexuality is right next to Satan himself." That is what the pastor told the congregation during the Sunday Service three weeks ago. The following week a visiting pastor stated, "It has become a den of iniquity, because of the homosexuals," while refering to a seaside town in England.

I remained seated, and quiet, not such an easy task. I have been attending this church for only two months and have already grown to love this pastor and many of the patrons. They have shown me love and welcomed me but they dont yet know that i am a homosexual. Thier welcome has been graciously generous, the pastor even wrapped his arms around me and held me in front of the congregation on the same sunday i heard one of the above quotes.

My hope is that they will all come to know me, and love me for who i am, which would put me in a more powerful position to witness and testify. I believe that God lead me to this church, for whatever purpose he might have in mind. It is a medium size congregation (aprox. 200) and im sure there are some there who have homosexuals in thier families, or have participated themselves, although they would certainly be closeted. I love spending time with these people and the services at church are spiritually uplifting and encourageing.

I understand the risk for hurt and pain but perhaps God will use me to teach. I would like to know what your thoughts are about this situation. Also, i would greatly appreciate your prayers.

"For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of or confidence stedfast unto the end;" (Hebrews 3:14)

"Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth." (Mark 9:23)

[Zerbie]

I wish you well, Daniel Ray.

Be prepared for the possibility of deep disappointment. I have experienced that people in such a mindset have been apt not to change their views of "Homosexuality" itself, but to change their views of the individual person they have met to shove that person into the category they designated for "Homosexuals." Even when it defies ALL logic and evidence.

I hope that will not be the case with you and your friends at your (new-ish) church. Perhaps you will reach just one person. Even that, in this atmosphere, will be a real victory.

[paul]

apparently.

daniel Ray,

I'm sorry...the pastors hug was qualified as is his "love." for people like him only. It seems to me that if he knew your secret, he would never embrace you for fear of being sullied by satan (you know, the guy "right next" to you).

My guess is that if you think you will establish yourself and then come out to these people you will be accused of being a deceiver. People will shield their young from you. At best, you will become a second class citizen in need of deliverance.

[Daniel]

The other Daniel here.....

Welcome.

I'm just curious. What made you want to attend this church?

Also- some practical issues come to mind here: I think it would be very difficult to effect 'change' absent a support system for that change. In other words, if you are the only person there who is bucking the system, then you will be the individual who will take the heat.

Can you- and are you ready- to do that alone? That's a lot to ask of yourself.

My sense is that real and lasting change happens in an environment where there is a great deal of active listening going on. And not just between individuals, but between groups of people.

Your chances of effecting change are greater- I believe- if you have others in the environment who will stand with you.

[antonyh]

I'm with Daniel here...find a church that nurtures your spiritual life and fully accepts you and work together with them for change. Your spirit is sacred and should not be defiled by blatant untruth about your sacred worth.

[Zerbie]

I am not a wilting flower. I understand the risk. I can handle the rejection as i have so many times before.

Now please dont forget the prayers.

We will remember.

I know you are no wilting flower and can handle risks/rejection (it's possible to get a feel for that from your posts so far.) However, even when you can handle rejection, risk, disappointment, etc. it doesn't mean you always have to, or need to put yourself out there frequently into a hostile environment. I strongly suggest taking it in small doses and surrounding yourself with 3D people who know and support the real you, even when you are strong. Doing those things will *keep* you that way, and make the whole process a lot more positive.

Wishing you well. :pray:

[Daniel]

If i could have a posative effect on only one person it would be worth it to me, as well as them.

Any and all amounts of suffering that your would have to endure alone would be Ok with you?

Hey. I'm not a 'couch guy', but what you are suggesting is giving me the impression that you are setting yourself up to either....

1) be a victim.....or

2) have the oportunity to rip another person's face off (calling a brother in Christ a hypocrite?).

And the latter gives me great pause. That would be violent. And as such, isn't exactly in keeping with what this forum expouses- that is- nonviolent change.

Please think about this.

Again: I feel that I must reiterate this. The potential for a successful outcome is unlikely abesent a supportive environment- that is- others who will stand with you.

Now. If you are the Lone Ranger type, that's another matter. And if so, then that tells me that you may have some motivations which aren't being acknowledged.

A greater truth must be remembered here: big things (and the thing you are attempting is a big thing) is one of those things that falls into - I believe- the 'where-two-or-more-are-gathered' category. Right now, you only have you- and no one else to help you- to stand with you.

If standing alone floats your boat. Ok. I can see that. But if that is the way you want to do this, God Help You.

He gave us arms and limbs and brains: what you are hoping to accomplish - of necessity- needs more than what you can do alone.

[keltic63]

I'm doing this at my church, but it's only after 4 years of being out, they knew me before I came out, and these people love me. It's still not easy. There has been gossip. There has been rumor. there have been hurt feelings. I have the support of my pastor. I am of value to the congregation as I am the music director. If I stood up and called anyone there a name, all of that trust and work that I've invested there would be wasted. You being there for such a short time would make it appear that you planned this "attack" on their church, and have no doubt, from what you've told us that is said from the pulpit, this is exactly what they would say.

go find yourself a loving church, not one that has to go looking for satan lurking behind trees, and around each corner.

[daniel Ray]

I am not a militant Daniel. Just because you would not remain in my position does not make me feel that i should be moved. I have no hidden agenda. I am simply a man, with more in common with straights than not, who happens to be gay. Do you prefer reverse discrimination?

I am never alone. My Lord and savior Jesus Christ is with me wherever i go.

"Fear thou not; for i am with thee: be not dismayed; for i am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, i will help thee; yea, i will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness." (Isaiah 41:10)

[Daniel]

I am not a militant Daniel. Just because you would not remain in my position does not make me feel that i should be moved. I have no hidden agenda. I am simply a man, with more in common with straights than not, who happens to be gay. Do you prefer reverse discrimination? (Isaiah 41:10)

I never said I would 'not remain' in your 'postion'. All I suggested was that what you are endeavoring to accomplish is something best not attempted alone.

As Keltic has pointed out: he has the support of many at his church. This makes a great difference.

Do you in point of fact have that kind of support? If not? Why not?

[daniel Ray]

What i am attempting is to go to church, worship my creator, fellowship with other human beings, learn all that i can and be the best steward for Christ that i can be. If anyone there wants to have a problem with that then let them. should they decide to crucify me, let them do that also.

I have made a couple of new friends at this church, i do hope that they dont have to prove thier friendship by rescueing me. I would hope that the patrons there are more sensible and closer to God than that. And i believe there are at least one or two who are.

Just like living life in this hetrosexually dominated world, i have every right to be in this particular house of worship.

As i stated originally, i know the risks involved. If i wernt willing to take them i would have left the place already. I am there to worship with brothers and sisters who may be imperfect, as i am. Perhaps we will learn something posative from eachother.

[Daniel]

All blessing be with you!

[antiochian]

My first reaction was that this church has an unhealthy obsession with the issue of sexuality, considering you heard the subject of gays brought up during two (consecutive?) Sundays, but that's hardly surprising.

I would think that sitting in a pew and hearing myself described as being "next to Satan" would be emotionally and spiritually damaging. I couldn't take it. And furthermore, to monetarily support such a church...

Perhaps there are other churches you could visit before you get too invested in this one? I'd suggest do a little shopping.

You say the people are nice. Glad to hear it. I can't judge those folks any more than I can anyone else, but I'd caution you that some "Christians" have this mask of sweetness underneath of which lies vast ugliness. I'm sure some of those racist Christian grandmas in the 1950's baked lots of cookies for their grandkids and gave lots of hugs to their neighbors, but underneath it all they believed the African American folks 10 miles down the gravel road were trash...

[sailaway58]

I admire your idea and your desire to bridge the gap. I wish you were attending our church.
In the setting you are in you will be accepted if they believe you are struggling with this issue. If you have embraced your orientation you will face condemnation for sure.
I do believe that through friendship you might help others see you are not much different than anyone else. But the setting and people you describe, once out, will call you perverted, you won't be able to participate fully, (teach a class, work with children, serve communion). I doubt you will even be allowed to be an usher.
While you do this I suggest you find some loving, supportive friends.

[daniel Ray]

Thank you Sailaway. Wish i could attend church with you sometime. I am not unfamiliar with the types of christians that are two-faced. I am from a large family with many members who might fit that description. Even my immediate family members.

In this part of the country there is a church on nearly every street corner, I have already been to many.

I am not struggleing with my sexual orintation, that took place a long time ago. Currently i am persueing my desire to serve My lord Jesus Christ and to be doing my part for The Kingdom of God.

Have you ever felt that God put you somewhere or brought someone into your life? It is my beliefe that God led me to this particular church, therefore i am not afraid. In fact, i enjoy being there more than any church i have ever attended in the past. Hateful words cannot hurt me. Of course, at some point the truth will be known about me. If i am rejected, or even disqualified as a teacher, or membership denied i will no longer attend. It takes time and effort to build relationships; all will be revealed in the future. The loss of love would prove most painful to me, severed connections could hurt all involved, therefore, i will be most careful. You may hear that the worst has happened, I pray not.

Hope you are blessed with nice Spring weather fit for sailing!

[sailaway58]

Well, daniel Ray, like I said, I admire you. I don't know if I would call those that would condemn you two-faced. They have been open and honest about their view on GLBT issues.
Good luck!

[keltic63]

Well, daniel Ray, like I said, I admire you. I don't know if I would call those that would condemn you two-faced. They have been open and honest about their view on GLBT issues.
Good luck!

earlier, daniel ray, you wrote that you could call the pastor a hypocrite to his face if he rejected you based on your orientation. here's what soulforce believes about our adversaries:

SEVEN "SOUL FORCE" BELIEFS ABOUT MY ADVERSARY


My adversary is also a child of the Creator; we are both members of the same human family; we are sisters and brothers in need of reconciliation.
My adversary is not my enemy, but a victim of misinformation as I have been.
My only task is to bring my adversary truth in love* (nonviolence) relentlessly.
My adversary's motives are as pure as mine and of no relevance to our discussion.
My worst adversary has an amazing potential for positive change.
My adversary may have an insight into truth that I do not have.
My adversary and I will understand each other and come to a new position that will satisfy us both, if we conduct our search for truth guided by the principles of love
I think these are good things to keep in mind when speaking with someone who thinks the worst of us. it keeps us from getting all dirty when the mudslinging starts; it's almost like a teflon coating!

and here me on this, I'm not saying that you can't express a firm opinion, or that you won't have those angry thoughts. It's not likely to work in your favor if you start name-calling.

[daniel Ray]

Yes, i wrote that i COULD call him a hypocrite. Not that i WOULD call him a hypocrite. Perhaps i should have structured that sentence differently. You are quick to imply that i might be a mud-slinging name caller which might bring you in parallel to the same. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

Last night, sometime after my reply to Sailaway i realized that i have been defensive of my position on this entire matter. I had closed myself to considering what others were saying here, and not communicating. From my perspective however, some of you appear to be attacking, judging, and correcting. Just MY perspective. It made me feel defensive. People have been saying that i should leave, find a different church. I consider that an over raction to the words i quoted from my pastor. If i leave, i AM defeated, if i stay, i MAY be defeated; since i am unable to predict the future, i choose to stay.

I am not looking for argument, rather some encourageing advice. Zerbie provided such. Thanks Zerbie!

[keltic63]

Yes, i wrote that i COULD call him a hypocrite. Not that i WOULD call him a hypocrite. Perhaps i should have structured that sentence differently. You are quick to imply that i might be a mud-slinging name caller which might bring you in parallel to the same. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

Last night, sometime after my reply to Sailaway i realized that i have been defensive of my position on this entire matter. I had closed myself to considering what others were saying here, and not communicating. From my perspective however, some of you appear to be attacking, judging, and correcting. Just MY perspective. It made me feel defensive. People have been saying that i should leave, find a different church. I consider that an over raction to the words i quoted from my pastor. If i leave, i AM defeated, if i stay, i MAY be defeated; since i am unable to predict the future, i choose to stay.

I am not looking for argument, rather some encourageing advice. Zerbie provided such. Thanks Zerbie!

I'm sorry you feel you're being attacked. That certainly isn't what I was trying to do. I was merely reacting to your words, and suggesting that you take a look at what soulforce is about, and what we try to keep in mind about our adversary.
I have offered advice, and it appears your mind is made up and you merely wanted affirmation for your choice of action. I'm sorry I am not able to offer that at this point.

that being said, Good Luck with your plans.

[daniel Ray]

I'm sorry you feel you're being attacked. That certainly isn't what I was trying to do. I was merely reacting to your words, and suggesting that you take a look at what soulforce is about, and what we try to keep in mind about our adversary.
I have offered advice, and it appears your mind is made up and you merely wanted affirmation for your choice of action. I'm sorry I am not able to offer that at this point.

that being said, Good Luck with your plans.

Thanks for wishing me good luck, i certainly need it. Divine intervention would be more appropriate.

I have not yet made a choice to take action Keltic, with the exception of posting this thread.

It would be so easy to walk away from this, perhaps i should, so far that seems to be the general consensus. I do see that i'm being stubborn, something like a mule :-). If i do leave the church i would miss the opportunity to become a positive example to anyone who may need just that in thier life. Obviously, this is a difficult position i'm in. I didnt begin attending this church so that i could become an activist or to cause any problems in any way. After what i've heard from the pulpit i think there is a need for my presence.

[RedneckDyke]

Daniel, We're not trying to attack you. WE're trying to tell you that you could get hurt. Sometimes people who have been in a situation tend to be a little abrubt to other people who may be just starting. Go to a meeting of women who have husbands that drink or abuse them. Sometimes a woman will want to stay with someone abusive and think that if she loves him enough they can change him.

Maybe that's what we are doing. Telling you,"Look, I'm sure you are a loving, honest, sincere, Christian person. And you think you can do some good. Change hearts and minds. Well, maybe you can, but the odds aren't great." Look what happened to Stephen in the Bible. Heck, look what happened to Jesus.

Anyway, just keep in mind that you don't have to be a martyr. God wants us to love people, of course he does. But I don't think God expects us to bash our heads against a wall. Jesus said "sure, go preach and spread the gospel. But if they ain't gonna listen, shake the dust off your feet and move on."

[paul]

Daniel, We're not trying to attack you. WE're trying to tell you that you could get hurt. Sometimes people who have been in a situation tend to be a little abrubt to other people who may be just starting. Go to a meeting of women who have husbands that drink or abuse them. Sometimes a woman will want to stay with someone abusive and think that if she loves him enough they can change him.

Maybe that's what we are doing. Telling you,"Look, I'm sure you are a loving, honest, sincere, Christian person. And you think you can do some good. Change hearts and minds. Well, maybe you can, but the odds aren't great." Look what happened to Stephen in the Bible. Heck, look what happened to Jesus.

Anyway, just keep in mind that you don't have to be a martyr. God wants us to love people, of course he does. But I don't think God expects us to bash our heads against a wall. Jesus said "sure, go preach and spread the gospel. But if they ain't gonna listen, shake the dust off your feet and move on."

Gee Red,

That was very well put.

[Pablo Rafael]

This whole conversation is a difficult one. I for one have chosen to stay in a non-affirming denomination. I think it is important for LGBT individuals to have a presence in those congregations and help to change people's perspectives. However, I think in many churches I think it is impossible to do any good. The gay person becomes the sacrificial victim to prove to the world that they are really "good" Christians. Not that I think your church is this way, Dan, just how I see many.

Also a key concern that has been brought up by others here, is just how much negativity are you willing to endure? I am willing to put up with some negativity, but not willing to take on a major attack.

I think most Christians with an anti-gay attitude really do not have hatred in their hearts. They need educated. They simply are believeing what they have always heard. Education is having some effect. Young people are much more accepting of gays in the church than are older people.

The anti-gay churches need to be challenged. They need to know that sweeping all the gays out of the church is not an option. But our response as gay Christians should be one of love. We can show love without giving in. We can be firm and strong and loving. I think it is best not to burn bridges. In the future I think most Christian denominations will repent of their anti-gay position. I probably won't be alive to see it, but I hope future generations will.

[matthewspeed]

This is a good discussion to have.

There is a reality that most churches or denominations will not come to accept homosexual persons as members or accept homosexuality as a sinless and normal way of living, especially in our lifetime. I have come to the realization that I may have to attend a church that does not accept me of who I am. I choose to attend church mainly to worship God. I can walk into church, listen to the sermon, worship my Lord, then go home. I may find a few within the church to have quality fellowship with. But it is not my desire to necessarily change the churches stance on homosexuality. I have to first make sure I am worshipping God and receiving the spiritual nourishment I need.

I have attended open/liberal churches. Many have watered down the gospel message just for the sake of being liberated. That is not what I am looking for.

I choose to return to the Catholic faith of my youth. I have to accept the fact that the Catholic church will not embrace my sexuality. So I will have to keep silence as I sit in my pew and focus on worship.

Possibly, as I continue to to attend services, I will make friends and people will see my legitimacy. They will see me as a fellow believer. If I get close enough to others and eventually reveal my life, they will first have seen my fruits and will think differently on the subject of being gay and maybe they will revisit their views and see Gods love and acceptance towards His gay children. This will happen one person at a time. I don't have a problem with this.

If I am with my life partner, I would have no problems attending chuch together. As we continue to worship, people will see our committment to our faith and I am sure that some will accept. It may have to be a "dont ask dont tell" kind of thing. But this will allow families to have discussions about me and my partner when they go home. They may have discussions around the dinner table saying, " Hey, did you see those two guys in church? I think they are together." This will cause them to have discussions about the subject and will challenge them.

Sometimes, just being present without uttering a word speaks a higher volume. Again, the bible says that we will know other believers not by words, but by their fruits. (No pun intended! LOL! Just a little strange humor there!)

Just my thoughs ladies and gents!

-Matthew

[Pablo Rafael]

we will know other believers not by words, but by their fruits.

What did you just call me!!! :eek:

I will not put up with being called a fruit! :mad:

All of you are my witnesses. You heard what he said.

I DEMAND SOME MODERATOR ACTION HERE!! :borg:

[daniel Ray]

Daniel, We're not trying to attack you. WE're trying to tell you that you could get hurt. Sometimes people who have been in a situation tend to be a little abrubt to other people who may be just starting. Go to a meeting of women who have husbands that drink or abuse them. Sometimes a woman will want to stay with someone abusive and think that if she loves him enough they can change him.

Thanks for your concern. As i have stated several times, i am aware of the risk involved in this situation. I have recieved training as a volunteer with abused, paraplegic, and mentally challenged consumers, so i have some understanding of enjured persons suffering various abuses.

[QUOTE]Maybe that's what we are doing. Telling you,"Look, I'm sure you are a loving, honest, sincere, Christian person. And you think you can do some good. Change hearts and minds. Well, maybe you can, but the odds aren't great." Look what happened to Stephen in the Bible. Heck, look what happened to Jesus. [QUOTE]

Thats right! Maybe i can do some good, even against the odds. Just look at what Jesus accompoished during his life time, before he was put to death. And Stephen, well he lived in a different time, stoneing was commonplace, let me refer you to the book of Deuteronomy. I always try to keep in mind that this is the 21st century and that we're living in The New Covenant, not the old.

Anyway, just keep in mind that you don't have to be a martyr. God wants us to love people, of course he does. But I don't think God expects us to bash our heads against a wall. Jesus said "sure, go preach and spread the gospel. But if they ain't gonna listen, shake the dust off your feet and move on."

Thanks, i will remember that i dont have to be a martyr. And the next time i go bashing my head into the nearest wall i might be able to knock enough sense into myself to realize they "aint" gonna listen, but then i aint done no preaching yet. yet i say! In the meantime....i'll take your advice, God does want us to love, of course he does!
"A new commandment i give unto you, that ye love one another; as i have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples (as we go preaching the gospel), if ye have love one to another." John 13: 34,35 I need a sermon on how to use these quote brackets.

[daniel Ray]

This whole conversation is a difficult one. I for one have chosen to stay in a non-affirming denomination. I think it is important for LGBT individuals to have a presence in those congregations and help to change people's perspectives. However, I think in many churches I think it is impossible to do any good. The gay person becomes the sacrificial victim to prove to the world that they are really "good" Christians. Not that I think your church is this way, Dan, just how I see many.

I see what you are saying Pablo, its good to be present as long as you are not victimized. So far nothing has been directed at me personally, I have been welcomed with open arms.

Also a key concern that has been brought up by others here, is just how much negativity are you willing to endure? I am willing to put up with some negativity, but not willing to take on a major attack.

The attack here has been toward all people, it is extreamly dangerous and the words spoken could potentially harm several patrons in the congregation, including thier family members. The negativity is not easy to take and i'm sure not to be the only one bothered by it. I hope to be able to discuss it with the pastor one day soon.

I think most Christians with an anti-gay attitude really do not have hatred in their hearts. They need educated. They simply are believeing what they have always heard. Education is having some effect. Young people are much more accepting of gays in the church than are older people.

I'm in total agreement! I think it's an ungodly belief put in thier heads by a spirit of homophobia that attached centuries ago. Education is KEY. I have already composed a letter to the pastor explaining my views on how i believe god sees homosexuals as equal to heterosexuals and will present it when i feel the time is right, they need to know me better before i do that.

The anti-gay churches need to be challenged. They need to know that sweeping all the gays out of the church is not an option. But our response as gay Christians should be one of love. We can show love without giving in. We can be firm and strong and loving. I think it is best not to burn bridges. In the future I think most Christian denominations will repent of their anti-gay position. I probably won't be alive to see it, but I hope future generations will.

Love where your coming from here Pablo! I think the challenge should be to love, in love, the pendulum swings both ways, I could not stay without a love for these people and they could not allow me to stay without a love for me. It is a challenge, God is certainly teaching me in this situation, one of his masterful crash courses. I believe he will be merciful to all involved.

[matthewspeed]

Sorry guys/gals!!

Did I refer to us as "Fruits?" Just a little sick humor here. Just so you all know, I am not the most "politically correct" kind of guy!

I just couldn't resist!! C'mon Pablo, I know you chuckeled when you read that. LOL!

I cant seem to get these icons to work. Pablo, you are always using the cutest icons in your messages. I guess I'm not the most computer literate person.

[Emproph]

I also take to heart all the admonishments offered, but I get the impression that you have a better handle on the situation than is perceived.

I have to admit, given the hell that I’ve been through, striking out on one’s own, without support, in whatever context, does provide certain, and permanent knowledge of what challenges one is capable of meeting.

If you are secure with yourself, in the midst of the overall challenge, you’ll be fine no matter what happens.

Just from what I’ve read of yours in this thread, it seems you’re going in with your eyes open and with the conscious intent to ensure minimal damage for all concerned (including you), in the name of maximizing understanding for all concerned. Which to me, is confidence instilling laser focus.

You’re set.

Now please forgive me while I support your cause by making fun of your name by groovemeistering it to music…

Daniel Ray - Are you Daniel Ray?

(Except actually it’s Jimmy Ray - Are you Jimmy Ray?)
skoPxPZmySs

He's meaner, he's leaner, and he ain't no inbetweener. And if none of us ever listen to that song the same again, my work here is done...

[daniel Ray]

This is a good discussion to have.

[QUOTE]There is a reality that most churches or denominations will not come to accept homosexual persons as members or accept homosexuality as a sinless and normal way of living, especially in our lifetime. I have come to the realization that I may have to attend a church that does not accept me of who I am. I choose to attend church mainly to worship God. I can walk into church, listen to the sermon, worship my Lord, then go home. I may find a few within the church to have quality fellowship with. But it is not my desire to necessarily change the churches stance on homosexuality. I have to first make sure I am worshipping God and receiving the spiritual nourishment I need.

I hear you Matthewspeed! Worshiping God and receiving spiritual nourishment is first and foremost. A little fellowship would also be welcome while doing the above in church.

I have attended open/liberal churches. Many have watered down the gospel message just for the sake of being liberated. That is not what I am looking for.

No sir, watered down might dilute the meaning, while expounding and perhaps expanding could bring more lucid understanding.

I choose to return to the Catholic faith of my youth. I have to accept the fact that the Catholic church will not embrace my sexuality. So I will have to keep silence as I sit in my pew and focus on worship.

Possibly, as I continue to to attend services, I will make friends and people will see my legitimacy. They will see me as a fellow believer. If I get close enough to others and eventually reveal my life, they will first have seen my fruits and will think differently on the subject of being gay and maybe they will revisit their views and see Gods love and acceptance towards His gay children. This will happen one person at a time. I don't have a problem with this.

I do agree, developing friendships is a way to educate others about homosexuals Of course if they're close enough to see your fruits your legitimacy will certainly become revealed :-). (my attempt at comic relief) Your right! one person at a time, that is the way.

If I am with my life partner, I would have no problems attending chuch together. As we continue to worship, people will see our committment to our faith and I am sure that some will accept. It may have to be a "dont ask dont tell" kind of thing. But this will allow families to have discussions about me and my partner when they go home. They may have discussions around the dinner table saying, " Hey, did you see those two guys in church? I think they are together." This will cause them to have discussions about the subject and will challenge them.

Yes, i can see it. Hello, my name is Kiwi and this gentleman is Pomegranat, could we share some of your grapejuice please? I think you are correct, people will talk and that will eventually lead to communication with some. There would definately be discussion, i think your approach is whats needed.

Sometimes, just being present without uttering a word speaks a higher volume. Again, the bible says that we will know other believers not by words, but by their fruits. (No pun intended! LOL! Just a little strange humor there!)

Our presence is very important, i think especially in church. BTW i know some fruits, apple, grapes and bananna, i keep them very close to me.
I like your approach Matthewspeed. Keep it up!

Just my thoughs ladies and gents!

-Matthew

[daniel Ray]

I also take to heart all the admonishments offered, but I get the impression that you have a better handle on the situation than is perceived.

Yes, take heed of warning signs. Your perception and investment of faith is greatly appreciated Emproph!

I have to admit, given the hell that I’ve been through, striking out on one’s own, without support, in whatever context, does provide certain, and permanent knowledge of what challenges one is capable of meeting.

"Certain and permanent knowledge of what challenges one is capable of", so well said i had to say it again. I too understand the challenges of striking out on your own without support, quite a sobering, educational experience would'nt you say. Character building is what comes to mind.


If you are secure with yourself, in the midst of the overall challenge, you’ll be fine no matter what happens.

Just from what I’ve read of yours in this thread, it seems you’re going in with your eyes open and with the conscious intent to ensure minimal damage for all concerned (including you), in the name of maximizing understanding for all concerned. Which to me, is confidence instilling laser focus.

You have a way with words my friend. You accurately perceive my intentions to procede toward understanding without damage.
You’re set.

Now please forgive me while I support your cause by making fun of your name by groovemeistering it to music…

Daniel Ray - Are you Daniel Ray?

(Except actually it’s Jimmy Ray - Are you Jimmy Ray?)
skoPxPZmySs

Emproph YOU ROCK DUDE! Are you Jimmy Ray? Are you Johnny Ray? Are you Slim Ray? Are you into my scene? Do you think i'm takeing liberties? JUMP BACK! TURN AROUND! Now lets do it again.

Are you into my scene? Come take a walk with me, i'll take you to church if your feeling dangerous. Anytime man! The band is a bit rock n roll, i think you'd like it!

Ah! Good God! I am a believer! a reeper and a dreamer. I am Daniel Ray

He's meaner, he's leaner, and he ain't no inbetweener. And if none of us ever listen to that song the same again, my work here is done...

[scott snedeker]

Daniel,

The best thing you can do is understand your place in your spiritual/emotional development. You are precisely where you are supposed to be, right now but you will cultivate a new spiritual level as time goes by.

Right now you are allowing the trespass of your pastor. This is what I call sanctimonious predation. Your pastor is compensating for a personal sense of inadequacy by dehumanizing gay folks for gratification. Predatory gratification is a gross disconnection from one's inner spirit. Again as I observed in the past, Fear is the opposite of spiritual connection and awareness.

But while you are permitting this trespass, you are exploring here, which means that you are growing out of the mindset that allows this trespass to continue. You are discovering that you have a sense of entitlement not to be trespassed against in this way.

So I am taking a moment to pull you aside to ackowledge that you are trying. Don't judge your self because in reality, outside of Soulforce as I am sure you have come to realize many are are just waiting for a flaw or a fall. But the truth is we all get it right on one of these tries, and soon you will see how far you have come.

Some of the next steps for you may include: trading condemnation for tolerance: Tolerance for acceptance: Acceptance for being embraced.

Some of these changes may require small changes in you life. Some may require big ones. The one thing I would ask you to remember is to try not to hold back because of fear.

One big change I had to make was the abandonement of Christianity. Now that stirs fear of eternal damnation in many folks raised Christian. The argument raised often has been that if I don't share the same metaphysical belief as do leaders of the Christian church, then my soul will perish.

But I do believe in [God] although I use a different label that changes with me. And oddly, I believe Christ to be a human uniquely connected to this Spirit through his capacity to love, and his teachings coming from his connection. At this point the distinction dwindles down to interpretation of historical events, not a spiritual idealogical conflict.

And in my Druidic Pagan Spiritality I am embraced. Nature is cherished, Sex is a Holy connection to the Earth spirit who delights in my lovemaking! I am lving true to my nature designed by God which gives him the joy of seeing His creation fulfilled.

And those who condemn? I believe that they are so far outside of [God's] connection that they are not even aware of his plan, lost at sea without a compass. I feel their emptiness when I think of them.

So I focus on my own Garden in which to cultivate love, Lovers, Life, and joy