Oklahoma State Legislator Sally Kern [Archive]

Joe Brummer

03-09-2008, 07:07 PM

I sent her this note:

Representative Kern,

I heard your speech attached to the YouTube video regarding gays and lesbians. I can hear in the video, your pain and fear around the exposure to gays and lesbians in our schools. I can hear your frustration with the city council where several of the members of gay or lesbian. I believe if I heard you correctly, that you anguish over having a Gay Straight Alliance come to your school. I hear your need to protect the country, children and yourself from the threat you find with gays and lesbians. I admire your passion and conviction to stand up for your beliefs.

I have to say when I heard your speech, I felt dismayed. I have a need to be seen authentically and accurately and I am not confident that you see me or people like me in that way. In my younger days, I would feel such anger and hostility at hearing a speech like yours, but as I have gotten older I try to hear your needs and feelings. I am realizing that learning about others fears is more of a gift. I want so much to connect with the reasons you would see gays and lesbians the way you do. I would love for you to experience gays and lesbians in a different way. I am sure that you are getting all sorts of emails and letters right now that contain the anger and hostility. Please know that I feel great disappointment knowing some don’t know how to reach out, so they in turn, lash out. I am always hoping we start teaching people better conflict management, but so far MTV teaches them to lash out.

I could spend a lifetime trying to convince you, gays and lesbians don’t indoctrinate youth and that the gay agenda is really about the safety and wellbeing of gay people, but I sense that you may not be in a place where you would hear me. Either way, I invite you to Rhode Island to spend some time with my partner, me and some of our friends. I would love for you to learn about us. I would love for you to see the gay agenda for yourself and see that it has very real families and people attached to it. It is not a vast conspiracy but a word that has real lives attached to it. My partner holds a PhD in community health and I work in mental health training and advocacy. We would feel delighted to have you in our home to meet our friends and see our lives. (I must warn you our life is pretty boring)

I feel grateful you have expressed your needs and fears to the world as you did in this meeting. It again reminds me how many people out there have not experienced gays and lesbians as we are, but as we have been portrayed by right wing organizations. Please feel free to contact me at (xxx) xxx-xxxx or via email at joebrummer@joebrummer.com.

Sincerely and in Peace,
Joe Brummer

keltic63

03-09-2008, 10:35 PM

oh Joe, you excellent letter-writer you! and so subversive! no wonder they say we have a gay agenda!

Emproph

03-09-2008, 11:04 PM

oh Joe, you excellent letter-writer you! and so subversive! no wonder they say we have a gay agenda!

I was all set to go nutso mockery on this one, but after Joe's post, Daniel's pic came back to mind:

http://www.soulforce.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=731&d=1204669823

littlebuddhaboy

03-10-2008, 11:27 AM

First and foremost, Joe, your letter was brilliant. I only wish Sally Kern had the ability to be as eloquent and tolerant as you!

Upon a little research, I discovered that there is an active Christian college, OCU, in her home city. I've applied as an Equality Rider for this fall, and should I be accepted, I will definitely push for a visit to this school. Again, the college has a zero-tolerance policy for homosexuals, and a visit by the Equality Riders would do some good in at least shaking up ole' Sally. There's a dialogue that needs to happen here, and maybe the best thing we can do is just letting her and OCU know that gays and lesbians aren't here to threaten the country. Some of are here to help save it.

It's never surprised me what people will say when they think no one is listening. But I want to know what she has to say when she's asked point blank.

Vanessa White

03-10-2008, 01:02 PM

Ditto, Joe, to what everyone else has said. You have a tremendous way with your words and message. Thank you so much for having done that.

It is a message that could easily hurt in its intent, but I think over the years, as I have grown more self-loving, the words do not hurt or anger as much as they sadden me. Sadden me because they are so narrow minded in their perspective. Sadden me because these people that think in a similar way as she does, see us but don't really SEE us. You are right, Joe, our lives would probably be seen as pretty boring if they were to come for a visit.

The utube video led me to VictoryFund stuff, and another utube video about Matt McCoy, a state representative in Iowa who is openly gay. It was a great seven minute story about his re-election campaign in light of him coming out.

He won almost sixty six percent of the vote in his reelection bid.

I sent him an email, thanking him for living his life truthfully, and having the courage to stand in that truth. :love:

dont flinch

03-10-2008, 08:19 PM

http://www.koco.com/index.html

ON THE LEFT SIDE ABOUT A THIRD OF THE WAY DOWN. "YES" IS THE VOTE TO MAKE IF YOU THOUGHT HER COMMENTS WERE UGLY AND INAPPROPRIATE LIES.

THANKS!

the news station misreported the "no" lead earlier, let's make sure at 10pm it's far enough the other way they have to tell the truth!

dont flinch

03-10-2008, 08:34 PM

p.s. I am pretty sure you can vote as many times as you want, just not consecutively. I also think it was this kern nut herself who went crazy voting not to resign...they profiled her making excuses about how she has "proof of everything she (sic) said" on the story, for like 5 minutes (no kidding!).

Joe Brummer

03-10-2008, 08:47 PM

dont flinch,
I feel so angry when I see people call this women a nut. She truly believes what she has said and we should respect that it is the misinformation that is the crazy thing, not the person. She seems to want the best things for this country, even if she doesn't understand what that means. I only hope we treat her with love because that is the only thing that can stop hate!

dont flinch

03-10-2008, 10:26 PM

well I think she's a nut. she not only tried to say that gay folks are more dangerous than terrorists, she continued on our local news to say she had "facts to back up everything she said" AND turned over a couple emails of some other nuts (or maybe her own cointelpro) threatening her and that was her whole focus, not that she clearly doesn't believe in protecting the rights of ALL of her constituents or is so blinded by her overly zealous bigotry that she couldn't reflect on the craziness of her comments. I watched her in real time on the news for several (prolly 5 - I couldn't believe the coverage they gave her) minutes tonight in addition to the youtube thing and to me it's pretty clear she's a whack job.

AND do you think she provided or commented on one reasonable sounding correspondence such as yours that she got in the news story? the answer is NO! only more hatred designed to make gay folks look like derelict evil-doers.

p.s. they just ran this again on the 10pm newscast so please keep the votes coming! thanks!

dont flinch

03-10-2008, 10:42 PM

dont flinch

03-10-2008, 10:44 PM

http://www.koco.com/index.html

ON THE LEFT SIDE ABOUT A THIRD OF THE WAY DOWN. "YES" IS THE VOTE TO MAKE IF YOU THOUGHT HER COMMENTS WERE UGLY AND INAPPROPRIATE LIES.

THANKS!

Zerbie

03-10-2008, 11:00 PM

I have one more thing to say...

I would prefer that this thread have not gotten off on this tangent BUT I have had friends that were BASHED, literally beaten, for being gay. You cannot "love" someone out of that behavior and behavior is driven by thoughts and words, sometimes such as hers.

it is an age old divide in any civil rights community, strictly 'love thy enemy/non-violence' or should oppressed people fight against those who would wrong them either by words or action.

I personally do not believe you will love this hate away.

maybe I should have made my own thread for the voting, so as not to have it distracted from by this stalemated, unresolvable debate.

I agree with the idea of a separate thread for the vote thing.

I have very mixed feelings about how to approach an adversary in love and what that means. Does "love" mean "always be 'nice'"?? And what do "nice" and "love" really mean anyway?

Joe's letter amazes me, and I am not in that place right now where I would write it that way - but I also have friends who wrote her some very hateful and viciously worded letters which I doubt would have any effect of inspiring her to pause and think. Maybe Joe's letter might do that; I don't know.

Fwiw, Joe knows a lot about anti-gay violence, and he does not speak or write from a position of ignorance about the matter.

The SF principle of non-violence is really hard in many ways. It is a technique for stopping the cycle of violence by not responding in destructive ways when we are attacked. Vengeance cannot be the goal, rather, *fixing the problem* must be the goal. Which then leads us to the challenge of all trying to agree upon what the problem IS and on what will fix it.

We're all doing our best, and at different times in our lives, we see different "takes" about what the best response is to any situation.

Daniel

03-11-2008, 08:04 AM

I really appreciate your perspective, your passion, and the letter that you wrote to Ms. Kern.

What stood out to me are two sentences, an invitation actually...

I have to say when I heard your speech, I felt dismayed. I have a need to be seen authentically and accurately and I am not confident that you see me or people like me in that way. In my younger days, I would feel such anger and hostility at hearing a speech like yours, but as I have gotten older I try to hear your needs and feelings. I am realizing that learning about others fears is more of a gift. I want so much to connect with the reasons you would see gays and lesbians the way you do. I would love for you to experience gays and lesbians in a different way.

....to see and be seen.

I think that's what it's all about.

I bow to the light within you.

Joe Brummer

03-11-2008, 08:41 AM

For the record flich,
I have been bashed twice. Once in 1990, I was beaten so bad my head swelled 4 or 5 times its normal size and mu face had a hole in it. Still have the scars. The second time, I was leaving a bar and got body slammed by some kids running down the street yelling anti-gay stuff. I broke my collar-bone and was knocked out.

Despite this violence, I still believe love will stop hate faster than more hate.

Daniel

03-11-2008, 09:58 AM

In checking the news at Towleroad....here's the lastest on this issue.

http://www.towleroad.com/2008/03/sally-kern.html

On Monday, the Dallas News reported that Kern had received over 3,000 emails and hundreds of telephone calls, some containing death threats.

Said Kern, who is the wife of a Baptist minister (which explains a lot): "I was talking about an agenda. I was not talking about individuals. They have the right to choose that lifestyle. They do not have the right to force it down our throat. I have never said hate speech against anybody. I would never do that."

Tulsa World reported the number of emails Kern had received at 5,000: "Most of the communications were critical, and several contained language that Kern said she has never heard before. The lawmaker related some of the e-mails to Republican caucus members in a closed meeting Monday. She later said the group gave her a standing ovation."

Kern believes she has the first amendment right to defame an entire group of people. Said Kern, in her statement released yesterday: "To put this simply: As a Christian I believe homosexuality is not moral. Obviously, you have the right as an American to choose that lifestyle, but I also have the right to express my views, and my fellow Oklahomans have the right to debate these issues."

Laura Belmonte, president of the Tulsa group Oklahomans for Equality, responded to that defense: "'I find it particularly interesting that she (Kern) is invoking freedom of speech for these remarks,' Belmonte said, noting that Kern sponsored a bill a few years ago to restrict access to library books that might contain gay or les bian themes or information."

Kern has vowed not to apologize.

Yesterday, GLAAD called on the media to hold Kern accountable for her remarks.

Said GLAAD President Neil Giuliano: "This type of hateful and defamatory language from our public officials is completely unacceptable. GLAAD calls on its members and allies to stand together to hold elected officials like Kern, pledged to serve all the people, accountable for promoting hatred and bigotry. Media have a responsibility to cover Kern's ugly remarks, not only to hold her accountable for her misinformed, inaccurate claims about gay and lesbian people, but also to bring to light the anti-gay attitudes and beliefs that are still all too common in our country, Kern's hateful assertions highlight the need for media to examine how the anti-gay attitudes of elected officials impact their diverse constituencies."

NathanATX

03-12-2008, 03:54 AM

Okay... so at 10 am I was speaking about responding to homophobia with nonviolence at a conference in Oklahoma City. I think I even warned my audience along the lines of "be careful... when you commit to something like nonviolence, you will have every opportunity to mess up in that commitment."

Later that night... around 10 or so, someone emailed me the youtube video of Kern's rant. I quickly wrote the following email and fired it off to her and *lots* of other people, including posting it on my blog.

Now, I'm realizing that it maybe isn't the most "nonviolent" thing I could have written. Some parts of it were a little catty.

I'm really interested in your thoughts and ideas about restating/rewriting this letter. I like Joe's letter, but I don't know if I think it's effective/strong enough. Maybe I'm still angry. Anyway... Here's what I wrote... (not on behalf of anyone or organization)

Representative Sally Kern,

I know that your faith informs your prejudice towards the gay & lesbian citizens of Oklahoma, including those in your district.

I realize that you believe being gay is wrong and, that despite mountains of evidence to the contrary, you believe the Bible supports your view. It would be your right to believe the earth was flat, if you so desired.

However, I take deep offense that you would invoke the name of Christ in one breath and in the next say that I and my family are worse than terrorists.

Maam, you may not remember what happened on 9-11. You may have forgotten what happened at the Murrah building. But I haven't. I remember that religious extremists both Muslim and Christian were responsible for the heartbreaking loss of life.

You are a pastor's wife and an elected official, yet you lack dignity, wisdom and grace.

You have not done well in your commitment to represent Christ and you have certainly failed to truly represent all of the citizens of your district.

It is my hope that you will recant your statements about gay & lesbian people and that you will reevaluate your methods of garnering support from those in your district. If you are truly a person of integrity and purpose, you will not need to resort to inciting fear and hate to gain power.

I am praying for your reconciliation to a sincere walk of Christian love.

Sincerely,

Nate BlackThis is important because I'm not the only one struggling with how to respond powerfully, effectively, compassionately and nonviolently. Our entire community has been so beaten down here in Oklahoma... there isn't really a strong voice of leadership to respond to things like this. I clearly have work to do before I assume any larger role in this arena.

We need a hero/shero.

peace,
Nate

ladyinred

03-12-2008, 04:08 AM

Emproph

03-12-2008, 05:53 AM

Ws--W7Cs5ms

Here is Blender Fritz's response to Kern, Oklahoma: mind-blowing anti-gay tirade by state representative (above) Got this off of Pam's house blend (parody)He covers all the bases, and more.

"I'm taking a big risk coming to speak to you today"
-Persecution complex

"Dirty, disgusting, smelly trolls."
-The "ick" factor

"Don't trolls just live under bridges and freeway overpasses?"
-In the closet.

"A conspiracy to make baby eating legal."
-A threat closer and worse than terrorism.

"Also want to make it legal to share human restrooms"
-Re transgender anti-discrimination laws.
--
It's mockery, but it's dead on, and therefore in my view, productive.
~~~
Here's another one I consider to be productive. Moreso than that even, this one's powerful.

The Ballad of Sally Kern (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcQk2rHPRMo&watch_response)

Dr. Suess would be proud..

Emproph

03-12-2008, 09:03 AM

I'm really interested in your thoughts and ideas about restating/rewriting this letter. I like Joe's letter, but I don't know if I think it's effective/strong enough. Maybe I'm still angry. Anyway... Here's what I wrote... (not on behalf of anyone or organization)

Big-long-evil-mean-monster-letter.
No guttural emotion at play there eh Nate? ;)

Me neither..This is important because I'm not the only one struggling with how to respond powerfully, effectively, compassionately and nonviolently. Our entire community has been so beaten down here in Oklahoma... there isn't really a strong voice of leadership to respond to things like this. I clearly have work to do before I assume any larger role in this arena.

As per Daniel’s Towleroad link:
After 3,000 emails and hundreds of telephone calls:

Kern: They have the right to choose that lifestyle.

3000 reminders that it's neither a choice, nor a lifestyle, yet her response is: "They have the right to choose that lifestyle."

At that point, I love her like I love wild animals. Dangerous, unpredictable, and willfully ignorant.

In addition, she is surrounded by a multitude of those who are as steeped in their own supremacism as she is.

To that extent, I see reaching out to her as reaching into a bottomless black hole of unrefined need. Logistically speaking, it’s suicide.

I see responses like Joe Brummer’s as being effective in convincing that movable middle of that fact, by sheer virtue of demonstrating that we are "better than" them.

I'm saying this within the context that we are seen as though our every move is necessarily a part of some nefarious plot or conspiracy (or "agenda"). So if you're gay, even a stellar letter like Joe's, will often, if not mostly, be interpreted as calculated manipulation.

Now, that black hole of faithlessness, desperation, and need (ok, I've refined it for them..), that they share individually, just like us, 'cept they consider it their religion, could be transformed in an instant if the handful of leaders who propagate it were willing to change their tune.

However, unfortunately, it appears to me, that they (those in charge) are idolaters to the core. Worshipers of fame, fortune, and power -- for all that they can get -- whilst they remain alive. (Just in case there aint no god, they're gonna make sure to get theirs...)

Long story short, they need to be reached on their terms, lovingly, and without condemnation, with truth -- sharp, harsh, and in no uncertain terms -- but truth as they know it.

Pam posted a letter that attempts this:

Here is [part of] the open letter (http://www.gaypolitics.com/?p=341) from the Gay & Lesbian Victory Fund's Chuck Wolfe to Kern:

This isn't a partisan issue; I know plenty of Republicans who were outraged at your comments, because they themselves are parents, friends and family to gays and lesbians who are at risk when people of your stature say the kinds of things you did.

Whether or not you agree that gay people deserve halfway decent treatment (the fact that you said we were destroying America implies that you don't), what I want you to understand is that the words you said will have real life implications. Your speech can lead to the murders of more young people. You have outraged hundreds of thousands, but you may have inspired a few people, too. That's not just sad, it's evil.
And one of my recent comments at EGW (http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/2008/03/open-forum-anti-gay-diatribe-by-oklahoma-representative/) was this:

JOHN: “and suggesting that anyone who does not agree is filled with hate”

EMPROPH: John, when you and Rep. Kern insinuate that every single homosexual human being on the planet is HIV+ and is spreading it, it’s about disagreement of reality.

You’re not only in factual error John, but you’re in factual error intentionally John — as obviously you have access to Google — but you also claim this error in the name of the epitome of love, Jesus. — and this John, is what makes it hateful on your and Rep. Kern’s part.
Those comments, like your letter Nate, still, admittedly, need honing as far as non-condemnation goes, but I think it’s possible to merry them with the sentiments and approach that Joe exemplifies, without diluting either priority.

But don't look to me for any further advice on any of that, I'm not even playing. I've fully let myself go on the non-violence front, and am very much looking foreward to giving that bitch an unedited piece of my mind!

P.S. And no, I'm not tacking a big grin smiley onto the end of that, because-it's-distracting.

paul

03-12-2008, 09:19 AM

I love you people and I love this place. I think Ms. Kern needs to join SoulForce. Perhaps we should send her an invite.

keltic63

03-12-2008, 09:25 AM

I love you people and I love this place. I think Ms. Kern needs to join SoulForce.

See! that's just the kind of subversive and terroristic activities that Ms. Kern is talking about! You GAYS are all alike!

:lol:

I love you too!

Emproph

03-12-2008, 10:10 AM

I love you people and I love this place. I think Ms. Kern needs to join SoulForce. Perhaps we should send her an invite.

See! that's just the kind of subversive and terroristic activities that Ms. Kern is talking about! You GAYS are all alike!

I could spend a lifetime trying to convince you, gays and lesbians don’t indoctrinate youth and that the gay agenda is really about the safety and wellbeing of gay people, but I sense that you may not be in a place where you would hear me. Either way, I invite you to Rhode Island to spend some time with my partner, me and some of our friends. I would love for you to learn about us. I would love for you to see the gay agenda for yourself and see that it has very real families and people attached to it. It is not a vast conspiracy but a word that has real lives attached to it. My partner holds a PhD in community health and I work in mental health training and advocacy. We would feel delighted to have you in our home to meet our friends and see our lives. (I must warn you our life is pretty boring)

For what it's worth, I've noticed that this is one gesture that is never made by the other side, but more importantly, is very OFTEN made by our side. And also, to my awareness, NEVER taken up on by them.

So, it would seem that we need to make our invitations just a little bit more...irresistible.

Ok, we're gay. Knowing that we epitomize the meaning of fun, how best to do that in this situation?

paul

03-12-2008, 10:35 AM

For what it's worth, I've noticed that this is one gesture that is never made by the other side, but more importantly, is very OFTEN made by our side. And also, to my awareness, NEVER taken up on by them.

So, it would seem that we need to make our invitations just a little bit more...irresistible.

Ok, we're gay. Knowing that we epitomize the meaning of fun, how best to do that in this situation?

How about an invitation with nude photographs??? :weee::agree::weee::rofl:

sorry, sorry, sorry :D.

Perhaps if we made the invitation public. Ms. Kern is a public 'servant' so if part of the public she purportedly represents offered her the opportunity to better serve, how could she resist???

Daniel

03-12-2008, 11:01 AM

I'm really interested in your thoughts and ideas about restating/rewriting this letter. I like Joe's letter, but I don't know if I think it's effective/strong enough. Maybe I'm still angry

Representative Sally Kern,

I know that your faith informs your prejudice towards the gay & lesbian citizens of Oklahoma, including those in your district.

I realize that you believe being gay is wrong and, that despite mountains of evidence to the contrary, you believe the Bible supports your view. It would be your right to believe the earth was flat, if you so desired.

However, I take deep offense that you would invoke the name of Christ in one breath and in the next say that I and my family are worse than terrorists.

Maam, you may not remember what happened on 9-11. You may have forgotten what happened at the Murrah building. But I haven't. I remember that religious extremists both Muslim and Christian were responsible for the heartbreaking loss of life.

You are a pastor's wife and an elected official, yet you lack dignity, wisdom and grace.

You have not done well in your commitment to represent Christ and you have certainly failed to truly represent all of the citizens of your district.

It is my hope that you will recant your statements about gay & lesbian people and that you will reevaluate your methods of garnering support from those in your district. If you are truly a person of integrity and purpose, you will not need to resort to inciting fear and hate to gain power.

I am praying for your reconciliation to a sincere walk of Christian love.

Nate- I think you can write the exact same letter, but in doing so, change the focus from the person to the ignorance and misinformation.

While subtle, the word change, from you, to the actions or thoughts behind the actions changes the context, and thus, the interaction.

She may be one offensive lady- and under the circumstances- is on the defensive- seeing that her words were broadcasted for all to hear without her knowledge. That's no way to establish a dialogue, right? So- as I see it- she'll be saying more stuff like she's been saying for a while to come.

She's gotta defend that ego- even more than the thinking behind it at this point. ;) And any statements that are accusatory (and you signifies an accusation) only keeps her doing things the same old way.

That said, your third use of 'you' is different in that is doesn't come off as an accusation. See the difference?

Words are funny things. They are tools that can either cut or heal.

Another matter comes to mind here: your letter first starts off with the use of "I" and then switches to "you". This, in itself, casts the letter into "us' and "them" territory.

In sum, I believe you can say the same thing with a little reframing.

OK. Now I apologize it this is a bit too editorial on my part. But that's what I do sometimes (in real life).

I love your passion, strength and commitment.

Vanessa White

03-12-2008, 11:26 AM

I read an affirmation today that I think fits this scenario in a way. A part of me believes that there is no "right" or "wrong" way to handle this situation; there are only more or less effective ways to address it, depending on what we would like the outcome to be. For me, the outcome is not educating this woman, because based on her comments to the press, and after 3,000 emails, it does not sound as if she wants to believe any different than what she is accustomed to.

How we address any situation, and the consequences of that, are all a matter of whether we take the situation by the handle or the blade of the knife. The abrupt, impulsive, compassionate side of me, for my community, is that I want to grab the blade quickly that she seems to be trying to use against us.

Of course, we know that ending......

Another part of me wants me to take the handle, even asking her to hand over her weapon, like a person committing a crime, and that I UNDERSTAND where she is coming from, that I want to help her through this.

A part of me believes that she probably thinks that she has no constituents that are gay. She really seems to believe that she is doing society a favor by "exposing" our illicit acts as a "gay agenda"; and that makes us nonhuman, but rather, a force. She doesn't see us as people, I cannot assume that is because she thinks we are less than human, but that she believes we ONLY represent to her an agenda, not human smiles and faces and hearts and minds and families and mortgages.

:love:

NathanATX

03-12-2008, 04:35 PM

Nate- I think you can write the exact same letter, but in doing so, change the focus from the person to the ignorance and misinformation.

While subtle, the word change, from you, to the actions or thoughts behind the actions changes the context, and thus, the interaction.

She may be one offensive lady- and under the circumstances- is on the defensive- seeing that her words were broadcasted for all to hear without her knowledge. That's no way to establish a dialogue, right? So- as I see it- she'll be saying more stuff like she's been saying for a while to come.

She's gotta defend that ego- even more than the thinking behind it at this point. ;) And any statements that are accusatory (and you signifies an accusation) only keeps her doing things the same old way.

That said, your third use of 'you' is different in that is doesn't come off as an accusation. See the difference?

Words are funny things. They are tools that can either cut or heal.

Another matter comes to mind here: your letter first starts off with the use of "I" and then switches to "you". This, in itself, casts the letter into "us' and "them" territory.

In sum, I believe you can say the same thing with a little reframing.

OK. Now I apologize it this is a bit too editorial on my part. But that's what I do sometimes (in real life).

I love your passion, strength and commitment.

Thank you so much, Daniel... that really helps. And I wanted to acknowledge Joe too... I really appreciate that he addressed this issue with me. Being a part of this community is really life-changing for me. I hope it is for everyone else too.

nmwolfboy

03-12-2008, 06:47 PM

Was sent this link today by a friend:

http://www.queerty.com/sally-kern-scrubs-gay-son-20080312/

Oy. That adds a whole other layer to this.

Pax :dove:

scott

Daniel

03-12-2008, 09:42 PM

Was sent this link today by a friend:

http://www.queerty.com/sally-kern-scrubs-gay-son-2008

Oy. That adds a whole other layer to this.

Pax :dove:

scott

But this one might...

http://www.queerty.com/sally-kern-scrubs-gay-son-20080312/

Disturbing to say the least......

keltic63

03-12-2008, 11:24 PM

But this one might...

http://www.queerty.com/sally-kern-scrubs-gay-son-20080312/

Disturbing to say the least......

ooh, a gay son, cruising restrooms at a Baptist University? that's too much!

go down and click on the Ellen Calls Kern link....

http://www.queerty.com/ellen-calls-kern-20080312/

or just click on it from here.

Daniel

03-12-2008, 11:32 PM

ooh, a gay son, cruising restrooms at a Baptist University? that's too much!

go down and click on the Ellen Calls Kern link....

http://www.queerty.com/ellen-calls-kern-20080312/

or just click on it from here.

If this turns out to be true- ie gay son cruising the men's room and Mommy in high dudgeon. Ok.....that's very 'personality detective' of me. Bad Daniel! :smashy:

It would, however, explain a lot of things. :rolleyes:

And by queer, I mean that in the proper (not venacular) sense of the word.

Very odd this kind of situation.

Best I can see coming out of it (now there's a pun): mother and son start talking to one another.

That would be a good thing.

Something worth working for......

seifer_boy

03-13-2008, 12:27 AM

lol, I was gonna make a post about this topic until I saw that you already did. I just read about it in my e-mail from a human rights society newsletter that I signed up for. I'll post about this in another forum I'm a member of, that way more people can be informed on matters like these. Thanks for the discussion! :)

NathanATX

03-13-2008, 12:35 AM

Here's the email I just sent to Kern, all Oklahoma Senators, the Mayor, local nonprofits & media.

Good evening Ziva Branstetter, Kristin Dickerson, Mayor Taylor, Oklahoma Senators, Representative Kern, et. al.,

Oklahomans for Equality is hosting a multi-organization press conference regarding Sally Kern’s statements on Thursday, March 13th at 2:00 PM. I hope you or a representative from your office can come. I am a volunteer with OkEq because I believe it is so vital that we change the culture in Oklahoma. I am sending this personal email to each of you because I believe we deserve to be represented by legislators who are conscious of and accountable to all of their constituency. It is time that we move past slandering and attacking individuals and entire groups of people. It is time we focus soley on the actual words and actions of injustice, inequality and hate.

Martin Luther King Jr. said that the goal isn’t to defeat "the enemy," but the goal is reconciliation. We are one family. We are one state. In his words, we are the Beloved Community.

My goal is not to destroy or defeat the person, Sally Kern. My goal is to stop the flow of spiritually and emotionally violent words she has said, hopefully by helping her to reevaluate her commitment as a leader in our state and as a Christian.

Representative Sally Kern is a well-meaning, good hearted woman. As angry and upset as I was last week, I still know that she really is a wonderful woman who cares about people and believes she’s doing right.

When any of us make mistakes on grand scales, it is incredibly difficult to address the real issues because we are often busy defending our wounded egos. I believe Rep. Kern is very overwhelmed with the international attention her words have been given and, at this time, she really isn’t able to seriously evaluate or authentically dialogue the possibility she may have said something wrong. It is my intention to not exacerbate her defensiveness and I’m committed that anything I publicly say in the future will be directed at what was actually said and done, as opposed to attacking her personhood.

Oklahoma is on too many of our nation’s "worst" lists for my personal comfort. We need leaders who can speak to the gravest issues facing our families with power, clarity and vision. Why do our schools accept 45% accuracy on our state’s placement tests to be proficient in subject matter, while our national standards accept a minimum of 75% accuracy to be considered proficient. We need a transformation of leadership in our state. How could we pass HB 1804, the most racist, anti-family and anti-christian legislation in our nation? Why is race and ethnicity the statistical factor that often determines which students will drop out, which young girls will become pregnant, which person will be incarcerated, etc. How in the world did our legislators who purport to follow the teachings and examples of Jesus Christ, violently attack and debase our Muslim friends, neighbors and citizens by publicly refusing a gift of the Q’uran?

I’m proud of Tulsa and our leadership. I know we have much work to do and I think Mayor Taylor has brought revolutionary change to our city, but where is the statewide voice of integrity and reason? Why are we letting our legislators get away with the misuse of the taxpayer’s time, money and goodwill?

All of that to say, I may have really disliked what Representative Kern said, but she simply laid bare the thoughts, ideas and prejudices of many of our citizens. The responsibility to create change lies with each one of us. We have to confront and dispel misinformation. We have to illuminate and publicize prejudice. We have to make our neighbors and coworkers realize they have nothing to fear from anyone, except the intentional misuse and misrepresentation of a person’s power and position to inflict violence and prejudice on other people.

Representative Kern has done us a great favor by reminding us regardless of how safe we may feel in our small, safe communities... that injustice, racism, religious phobia, homophobia, heterosexism and many more issues are not only prevalent forces in our society, but they are becoming more powerful because no one is speaking truth to power and thus, the general population here has begun to believe these "bully pulpit" messages.

We need a concert of justice sounding from every corner of our state, and not just for our Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual & Transgender citizens, but our Hispanic brothers & sisters, our Muslim neighbors, our Black co-workers, and our Native American friends.

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." - Martin Luther King Jr.

I hope you’ll come tomorrow.

Peace,
Nate Black

seifer_boy

03-13-2008, 01:06 AM

I really liked that email you sent NathanATX. I wonder if it would do any good though. Most people like that never want change and continue their hurtful words and actions. I do wish you luck in at least some success.

NathanATX

03-13-2008, 10:26 AM

I learned last night that Sallly Kern may have a gay son, whom she possibly disowned. Google Jesse Kern. There is an article on queerty.com that he was notoriously gay while a student at Oklahoma Baptist University.

I say "notoriously gay" because he was apparently in trouble several times making lewd advances in the campus’ restrooms... which is wrong, unhealthy and most likely evidence of the emotional dysfunction that many LGBT have to work through because their families and churches have been so spiritually and emotionally violent.

Sally Kern is a scared mother. She believes the horrible things she has been taught. She is terrified for her gay son because she truly believes God is waiting to roast him alive for eternity. She justifies her unkind and unloving words and actions as doing whatever necessary to save her son’s soul... regardless of how violent... and hopefully he and all the rest of the gay people in Oklahoma will somehow be saved from this monster God.

We need to see Sally Kern compassionately and we need to not let her get away with being unloving, unkind and unChristian.

NathanATX

03-13-2008, 06:06 PM

AsfOgRap4pk

Zerbie

03-13-2008, 07:38 PM

I would prefer that this thread have not gotten off on this tangent BUT I have had friends that were BASHED, literally beaten, for being gay. You cannot "love" someone out of that behavior and behavior is driven by thoughts and words, sometimes such as hers.

I personally do not believe you will love this hate away.

.

Joe's letter amazes me

Fwiw, Joe knows a lot about anti-gay violence, and he does not speak or write from a position of ignorance about the matter.

Vengeance cannot be the goal, rather, *fixing the problem* must be the goal.

For the record flich,
I have been bashed twice. Once in 1990, I was beaten so bad my head swelled 4 or 5 times its normal size and mu face had a hole in it. Still have the scars. The second time, I was leaving a bar and got body slammed by some kids running down the street yelling anti-gay stuff. I broke my collar-bone and was knocked out.

Despite this violence, I still believe love will stop hate faster than more hate.

This is what amazes me, Joe. How have you been able to so thoroughly heal from those events and prevent the natural survival response of fighting back? Because that is what non-violence in this sort of context requires. I hope you don't mind if I ask this: do you not experience a body-based surge of self-defense rage when anti-gay words graze over into significant verbal violence? If you do, how do you calm it down and stop it from influencing your behavior? If you don't, how is it that you are able to avoid that response?

Joe, your ability to engage in the way that you do, in light of your experience, is amazing.

Joe Brummer

03-13-2008, 09:55 PM

This is what amazes me, Joe. How have you been able to so thoroughly heal from those events and prevent the natural survival response of fighting back? Because that is what non-violence in this sort of context requires.

I can't say I have healed thoroughly, but what pain and anger I have I transform the best I can to prevent it from happening to others. You are correct though, it is what nonviolence requires, that is what draws me to it.

I hope you don't mind if I ask this: do you not experience a body-based surge of self-defense rage when anti-gay words graze over into significant verbal violence? If you do, how do you calm it down and stop it from influencing your behavior? If you don't, how is it that you are able to avoid that response?

I am learning to not hear the words people use, but the needs and feelings they express. I try to empathize with them, understand them and answer to their needs. The verbal violence has nothing to do with me, it has everything to do with them. When you remove yourself from it, it doesn't hurt.

Joe, your ability to engage in the way that you do, in light of your experience, is amazing.

Not really, It is not in light of my experiences that I engage this way, it is because of them.

Daniel

03-13-2008, 10:13 PM

I am learning to not hear the words people use, but the needs and feelings they express. I try to empathize with them, understand them and answer to their needs. The verbal violence has nothing to do with me, it has everything to do with them. When you remove yourself from it, it doesn't hurt.

Perspective, as they say, is everything.

Emproph

03-14-2008, 06:26 AM

Here's the email I just sent to Kern, all Oklahoma Senators, the Mayor, local nonprofits & media.The fact that you sent it to many more than just Kern’s office makes me feel confident that it will at least be read by some.

I especially concur with your assessment of this aspect of the situation:When any of us make mistakes on grand scales, it is incredibly difficult to address the real issues because we are often busy defending our wounded egos. I believe Rep. Kern is very overwhelmed with the international attention her words have been given and, at this time, she really isn’t able to seriously evaluate or authentically dialogue the possibility she may have said something wrong.

Also, I very much liked the way you worded this:We need a concert of justice sounding from every corner of our state, and not just for our Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual & Transgender citizens, but our Hispanic brothers & sisters, our Muslim neighbors, our Black co-workers, and our Native American friends.Genuine.

Emproph

03-14-2008, 04:24 PM

Reaction to Rep. Sally Kern's comments - tulsaworld.com

GSPmRD9b57M

BlueGirl

03-14-2008, 05:32 PM

Joe,
I don't know if that woman is a nut or not but I think she's evil. She is certainly hate-filled and mean-spirited, at best. Of course she belives what she said. Does that make it any less evil or twisted? Hitler believed what he said too. Would you hate to hear him called a nut?

The apostle Paul, before he was converted, killed Christians. He believed what he said too and probably would have gone on killing Christians if the Lord hadn't struck him blind to get his attention. Unfortunately, God doesn't seem to do things like that in this day and age.

BlueGirl

Joe Brummer

03-14-2008, 08:05 PM

Joe,
I don't know if that woman is a nut or not but I think she's evil. She is certainly hate-filled and mean-spirited, at best.

Bluegirl, I feel so sad when I read your words. I cannot, will not ever believe that anyone is evil or mean-spirited. I believe she has needs and feelings. Currently, the strategies she is taking to fill her needs are causing many of us great pain because our own needs are not being met. I can assure you that whatever her reasons are for doing what she is doing, she is not evil or mean. She may even be a great pain or fear, but no one is evil.

Of course she belives what she said. Does that make it any less evil or twisted? Hitler believed what he said too. Would you hate to hear him called a nut?

Funny you should say this. She does believe what she says and yes so did Hitler. We also know Hitler was in great pain. It doesn't excuse him from his actions, but it does explain them.

The apostle Paul, before he was converted, killed Christians. He believed what he said too and probably would have gone on killing Christians if the Lord hadn't struck him blind to get his attention. Unfortunately, God doesn't seem to do things like that in this day and age.

BlueGirl

God cannot do it in this day and age either. Free will cannot exist if god interferes or it is no longer free will. Of course, I don't believe in god, I do get the concept.

Zerbie

03-14-2008, 08:40 PM

Bluegirl, I feel so sad when I read your words.

Hi Joe, hi Bluegirl.

Kern is deliberately persisting in doing something that causes great harm. It is understandable to view her actions in an extremely negative value judgment. It is also possible to view her actions as evil while viewing the person herself as not evil. Someone with a complex set of psychological reasons for ending up where she is, doing what she is out of a belief that it's right. Her belief doesn't make her behavior right. It makes her (if she genuinely believes what she's doing is good) yet another ignorant victim of evil - the very evil that perpetuates itself through what she does.

It's really hard to view someone who as harming you as a victim, because the time-frame is different. In the moment, they are being a perpetrator of serious wrongdoing. But they only got that way by being a victim of wrong/evil in the first place. Joe's ability to hold this awareness in the forefront all the time really blows my mind. :love:

I cannot, will not ever believe that anyone is evil or mean-spirited.

no one is evil.
.

Having seen far too much darkness, I hold out the possibility that once in a while, a rare person may exist who actually has become evil. That the person we would try to relate to and reach is, in fact, gone. Absent. Dead, while their body lives on. What lives on instead can indeed be evil.
It appears this case is rare, perhaps exceedingly so. However, I mention it because I believe it is extremely dangerous to be unaware of the possibility of encountering someone who may embody evil. Not acknowledging this remote possibility leaves one open to extreme harm. As rare as it is, it is important that we remain open to the possibility that this m m m m might happen. I believe that it can. (about 1 in 10,000,000,000,000 times - I'm not sayin' everyday.)

In more everyday terms, I agree with Joe. Typically, people are not deliberately 'being' evil, or deliberately causing harm. But I am very carefully aware that there may be the rare person who has somehow 'become' evil. Or acts 'as if' so - in which case, our response to them must be one of self preservation and preservation of other innocents. If someone is in fact 'evil,' our response to them will fail if it is based upon an assumption they are not, leaving us open to greater harm. Eyes wide open, alert to possible surprises, that's all I'm saying.

Alecto

03-15-2008, 12:53 AM

Zerbie

03-15-2008, 11:37 AM

At risk of hijacking, I find it VERY relevant to understanding your post, Zerbie: how do you define "evil"?

I don't think it's all that rare to find evil people, which led me to question my definition of the word. I've got one, in terms of the vocabulary you use, and i'm ok with it, and still think there's entirely too many people out there who fit the bill.

If you are asking how I would define or identify an "evil" person, I really am not sure. I think it's a judgment that needs to be made extremely rarely, and with great caution. I am hesitant to describe any person as evil, even when. . . wow. But I think that we must acknowledge a possibility.

An evil *act* will be easier to deal with conceptually than thinking that a *person* is evil. Evil actions are far more numerous than evil people (assuming there are any evil people, but I do think there may have been a few of those.)

Evil acts can run the gamut from knowingly goading others into acts of violence against an innocent third party, seeking out somebody to bash with a baseball bat for a Friday night thrill, urinating on a sleeping homeless person knowingly for laughs, the list could go on. Anything done with cruelty and a willingness or intention to harm or hurt or degrade life could possibly be placed in the category of evil action.

More 'iffy' is the question of whether extremely harmful acts done unknowingly or in the intention of getting a 'good' result can be categorized as 'evil' acts. Possibly. Let's try an example. If one deliberately teaches others that gays are a horrific danger to civilization, that can plant an idea in the mind of, let's say, an ignorant 14 year old kid who might gun down a gay classmate. Thus, the words of the first person are responsible (indirectly of course, and surely not solely, yet still responsible as they are part of the cause) for the murder of one child and the imprisonment of another. For the record, I use that scenario as an example because it is fresh on our minds, NOT because I think that Kern (the original topic of this discussion) had anything to do with or is in any way responsible for that incident. I am simply searching for ways to relate cause and effects, NOT saying that Kern was part of the recent events in CA. Maybe it's a bad example, but it is the one which came to mind.

Alecto, if you are seeing a lot of evil people in this world then it seems you are perhaps using the term 'evil person' very liberally. If we identify every evil act as done by someone who must be evil, then I can see coming up with many evil people. However, one evil act does not necessarily make a person *an evil person,* I believe. So I am curious how you define evil, Alecto. To what degree do you separate the person from the actions, if you do?

I love the points made by Nate and Joe, that quite probably, the Kern woman (going back to our original topic, finally:p) actually intends to be doing good. Personally, I find it questionable when someone deliberately slanders an entire group in such an extreme way and despite such an outpouring of concerned opposition on the side of love and equality that they *could* believe they are doing something good - BUT I'm not in her head and I haven't witnessed the complexity of thoughts and emotions over the years that led her to logically conclude her position is 'right.' Maybe she does think she's doing something good. And if she does believe it's good, then her action is evil but She Is Not. If this scenario is the case, she herself is also a victim of homophobia, albeit a victim who perpetuates the same evil she herself is victim of. Nate and Joe are right; if this is the case, it is a sad one.

Joe Brummer

03-15-2008, 12:02 PM

I

Personally, I find it questionable when someone deliberately slanders an entire group in such an extreme way and despite such an outpouring of concerned opposition on the side of love and equality that they *could* believe they are doing something good - BUT I'm not in her head and I haven't witnessed the complexity of thoughts and emotions over the years that led her to logically conclude her position is 'right.' Maybe she does think she's doing something good. And if she does believe it's good, then her action is evil but She Is Not. If this scenario is the case, she herself is also a victim of homophobia, albeit a victim who perpetuates the same evil she herself is victim of. Nate and Joe are right; if this is the case, it is a sad one.

Take this statement and remove all the moral judgments you have made. Is she deliberately slandering? That is your moral judgment of her actions. In her eyes, she is sharing what she believes is the truth. She is giving a warning. I would propose we look at if her actions meet needs or don't meet needs as opposed to all these moral judgments.

I would love for us to move away from these moral labels of others and ourselves. Right, wrong, good, bad, evil, good, nice, mean, fun, boring are all just moral labels we inflict on others and ourselves. Who do we think we are that we can make these sort of judgments of others actions? Thes3e labels don't serve us well and they are the source of a system of violence. As we move away from the labels, we also move away from violence.

NathanATX

03-15-2008, 12:45 PM

Reaction to Rep. Sally Kern's comments - tulsaworld.com

GSPmRD9b57M

This was an amazing press conference... I'm trying to find more video...

Zerbie

03-15-2008, 02:23 PM

Take this statement and remove all the moral judgments you have made. Is she deliberately slandering? That is your moral judgment of her actions. In her eyes, she is sharing what she believes is the truth. She is giving a warning. I would propose we look at if her actions meet needs or don't meet needs as opposed to all these moral judgments.

I would love for us to move away from these moral labels of others and ourselves. Right, wrong, good, bad, evil, good, nice, mean, fun, boring are all just moral labels we inflict on others and ourselves. Who do we think we are that we can make these sort of judgments of others actions? Thes3e labels don't serve us well and they are the source of a system of violence. As we move away from the labels, we also move away from violence.

Weird. I opened this message up and thought WHAT moral judgments?!?! :eek: :confused: My whole point in the supposedly judgment-laden post was that I was avoiding making any. I was sure I hadn't made ANY, but have been deliberately suspending any kind of judgment since I don't know what she believes or intends. Funny, since I think of myself as one who rarely comes down with a judgment. Maybe that isn't accurate. You have me confused, Joe.

Now you've pointed out that I said she deliberately slandered. Yes, I was absolutely sure it was deliberate and I'm still sure it was/is slander. Is it a moral judgment if that's what it in fact is? Or is it just an observation? Yes, I assumed she was deliberate, because I don't see how one can slander an entire class of people by accident. Maybe one can. Maybe she did. I don't know.

It is interesting that I couldn't see a possibility of her words NOT being deliberate slander. It NEVER occurred to me it might not be deliberate, or I would have qualified the statement. From what little I've heard of her responses since the outpour of confrontation, it seems like she is quite deliberately defending the position after the fact. Therefore it does seem deliberate to me, at least in her hindsight.

What you're hoping for will probably never happen, Joe, if you're hoping that we can all get away from what we know and what we've witnessed/experienced when new input (like Kerns' remarks) comes along. We have to pin our thoughts somewhere. But I appreciate you opening us to assumptions we don't know we're making. That is helpful.

I suppose it would be good to have noticed something like this might NOT be deliberate. I've always known that slanders like what came out her mouth are, well, slanderous. That's so foundational, I cannot imagine someone not knowing that's what they are doing. Sure I'd like to get away from lots of assumptions, but something so foundational is going to be really difficult to change, and sometimes, when it has to do with basic human decency, you will find me a tad inflexible here or there. That doesn't mean I want to label the whole person away as bad. I will rarely, rarely ever want to do a thing like that. See, you've got me defensive now.

Anyway, I'm happy to settle for: her actions were despicable, and maybe she really just doesn't understand that yet.

Joe Brummer

03-15-2008, 03:06 PM

Just because the opportunity is here, I am taking it. Sorry if I cross the line of devil's advocate.

Anyway, I'm happy to settle for: her actions were despicable, and maybe she really just doesn't understand that yet.

If I read this correctly, you are angry that her words didn't meet your need for understanding?

What if Sally Kern said this to you about something you said that you really believed in? How would you feel?

You might say to yourself or her, "Despicable, what are earth are you saying, my words are congruent with my faith"

Could we choose to settle for....

Observation without judgment or diagnosis (What did Rep. Kern do exactly as said like it was recorded by a tape)

How did it make you feel (be sure it is an emotion)

What need of of yours' was not met by her statements or action?

What would you like to be different and why?

Zerbie

03-15-2008, 06:53 PM

Just because the opportunity is here, I am taking it. Sorry if I cross the line of devil's advocate.

If I read this correctly, you are angry that her words didn't meet your need for understanding?

I haven't felt anger regarding this. No, I'm not angry, Joe. What made you think so? I don't have a need for her understanding. I do believe the collective society we live in has a need for her to understand that her words are harmful, so that she chooses to cease spreading such harmful statements.

What if Sally Kern said this to you about something you said that you really believed in? How would you feel?

It's hard to answer, since I wouldn't deliberately do anything despicable. If she thought an action of mine was despicable, given that our moral polarities seem to be in reverse, I would probably assume I had done something right.

You might say to yourself or her, "Despicable, what are earth are you saying, my words are congruent with my faith"

Could we choose to settle for....

Observation without judgment or diagnosis (What did Rep. Kern do exactly as said like it was recorded by a tape)

Yeah, kinda, but then we aren't activists. If we don't judge it, then we don't want to change it either. That says to me we're saying it's fine for an elected official to claim that gays are more threatening to society than terrorists.

How did it make you feel (be sure it is an emotion)

Not drawing any emotion here. This scenario hasn't tapped into one yet.

What need of of yours' was not met by her statements or action?

What would you like to be different and why?

Seems to me you're making this personal about Zerbie, Joe. But it isn't.
This is not about my personal needs. Why are you putting things into such terms?

Joe Brummer

03-15-2008, 08:41 PM

Seems to me you're making this personal about Zerbie, Joe. But it isn't.
This is not about my personal needs. Why are you putting things into such terms?

It isn't about you Zerbie, but I was using your post an an example. Maybe I didn't present it in the best way.

Zerbie

03-15-2008, 11:50 PM

Emproph

03-16-2008, 03:39 AM

After 3,000 emails and hundreds of telephone calls:

Kern: They have the right to choose that lifestyle.3000 reminders that it's neither a choice, nor a lifestyle, yet her response is: "They have the right to choose that lifestyle."It really ticks them off when I say, I believe they have the right to choose that lifestyle, because they have, you know, bombarded me -- we don’t have a choice, you know, we were born this way.
Full transcript in foyer.

ladyinred

03-16-2008, 04:34 AM

Why can't you just say the truth of how you feel about the comments Kern made, say what you think in a truthful way does not mean condemnation. You can point out that not only are the comments hurtful but not factual. To me how does that express hatred and violence? To me condemnation is judgment call ,for example, her words do condemn homosexuals as not normal, spreading an agenda, trying to infiltrate schools to get to young kids(Probably left out the word pedophile, perhaps she knew that would really get her in hot water) But her words in effect demonize gays as dangerous and with evil intentions.

This is the same ol' song and dance people hear from the religious right over and over again, LGBT's are not portrayed as people or human beings but they apparently see LGBT people as subhuman and not worthy of respect or fair treatment but as unworthy sinners of the worst sort who are going to hell; also words used , depict us as demonic, disease bearers, subversive,out to destroy the fabric of our society and traditional marriages and families. Anything they can use as a weapon to dehumanize and denigrate LGBT people. They have no qualms about stripping LGBT people of equal rights and have no empathy what-so-ever about those who suffer because of this type of oppression. You just don't walk over to someone like that and treat them with kid gloves, you confront them honestly and speak your truth , you can do that without expressing hostility or attack, but you can let them know that their words foster animosity and hatred toward gays and distort the truth and spread misconceptions and stereotypes that are hurtful.. That is a world of difference than wishing them harm or hoping they go to hell (or maybe fall off a cliff or some other vindictive fantasy)or some other malicious intent. You don't wish the person ill, but you stand for your truth and speak up assertively, but do not fall into the same trap of demonizing them.When people cannot identify with the humanity in others ,it is easy to hate or see them as "not human" or degenerate.

History is replete with such examples, look at the Nazi's propaganda of the jewish people as they set out to destroy them; Jewish people were the worst kind of "animal", spread disease, were criminals ,abnormal, pathological,perverted,threatened children,violate the bible.......according to Nazi viewpoint (refer to:http://www.hatecrime.org/subpages/hitler/hitler.html) Sound familar? Sounds like people haven't learned lessons from history and what this kind of prejudice and fear mongering foster.It did bring about the holocaust after all. The destruction and suffering of innocent people.

Emproph

03-16-2008, 06:20 AM

It isn't about you Zerbie, but I was using your post an an example. Maybe I didn't present it in the best way.

I sensed that we've been going farther and farther afield, and I think I've missed your point. Not sure what you were looking for an example OF.

We didn't connect on whatever we were just talking about. But I do believe our positions aren't THAT much different from one another.

One thing I think that got missed seems to be a clear definition of not only who is evil, but what is evil.

Technically, I don't think Joe sees evil. He sees it like A Course In Miracles sees it, as a call for love. A need for love, a need to overcome fear, etc. In principle, non-existent.

As ACIM states, love has no opposite, and if love has no opposite, logically, evil must then be the love of the absence of love.

I read it asked once, "who is evil?" The response was, "A person who loves evil."

I recognize my own hatred. I make it a point to keep tabs on my love of it.

Daniel

03-16-2008, 08:24 AM

One thing I think that got missed seems to be a clear definition of not only who is evil, but what is evil.

Technically, I don't think Joe sees evil. He sees it like A Course In Miracles sees it, as a call for love. A need for love, a need to overcome fear, etc. In principle, non-existent.

As ACIM states, love has no opposite, and if love has no opposite, logically, evil must then be the love of the absence of love.

I read it asked once, "who is evil?" The response was, "A person who loves evil."

I recognize my own hatred. I make it a point to keep tabs on my love of it.

Re A Course in Miracles and how Joe may be seeing Ms. Kern's actions -and words- as a call for love: though I should point out two things 1) Joe doesn't believe in God and 2) A Coures in Miracles notes outright that one doesn't need to believe a word of it. :eek::D When I read it, it reminds me of the mind training methods that are used by Buddhists ect. I see a great deal of the methods of nonviolence in it.

Having the perception of evil may be something quite different that the actuality of it.

How about we put it into stark terms? (perhaps annoying, stupid, or unhelpful) But was Jeffrey Dahmner just killing people for the fun of it or can his actions be seen as a call for love? I think you can may a case for the latter- twisted though his actions may be.

And there's another way to put it, just because someone is certifiably 'mad' doens't make that person evil, just mentally ill. The action of a mentally ill person isn't evil, is it? Though I can see why it could be seen as such. '

I think these matters are matters of perspective.

I agree with Joe on one huge thing: the ability (which I personally believe bears some kind of training) to 'see' the actions of others in a context larger that the one offered by the person making/taking the action.

Just supposing Ms. Kern does in fact have a gay son. Her subsequent actions words and actions, though they be twisted, could be seen that 'call for love'.

Sure. She may be enjoying all the hoopla right now it, but that's what ego's do when run amok. Does her actions heal the (we suppose) breach with her son?

No.

In Course in Miracles terminology, Ms. Kern (her ego that is) is choosing to be 'right' over being 'happy'.

I do not doubt that the desire is there within her (in fact I would bet on it- buried though it may be under a ton of fundi belief) to be 'happy' with her son. What she probably can't face is her own hate- so must project it outward.

Simple psychological math.

Ergo: what is her need? To love her son without judgement. To do that she's going to have to drop some baggage along the way. And isn't that we're all about? Addressing the stuff she's carrying, and not the person?

Back to Zerbie's thought: can the person carrying the baggage become the baggage?

Good question. Sounds like another thread to me. :D

Joe Brummer

03-16-2008, 09:10 AM

Daniel is correct, I don't see evil. I do not really believe in evil. I believe in needs and that not every strategy to meet our needs is the best one.

It is true, I do not believe in god. I struggle with wording things perfectly for those who do believe, so I do not offend them. Otherwise, I find they close their ears and hear nothing I say.

I have never read a course in miracles, but have been told I should.

Why can't you just say the truth of how you feel about the comments Kern made, say what you think in a truthful way does not mean condemnation. You can point out that not only are the comments hurtful but not factual. To me how does that express hatred and violence?

The answer to this is "rewards and punishment" is a losing game. If our answer to things is to punish then yes, she will never say we choose this lifestyle again. But she will do it out of fear of GLBT folks. If our object is to reward her, should she say we are born gay, thenm she will do it to gain the rewards of our praise. I would so much rather she change her ways because she sees the life serving needs met by her actions.

I believe, we must choose words that do not condemn or reward, but express feelings and needs. The reason for this is that justice must be restorative not punitive or it only promotes more violence.

Read Marshall Rosenberg's book "Speak Peace" or "Nonviolence Commmunication" to learn more....

Joe Brummer

03-16-2008, 09:11 AM

One last thing for Daniel and it is just a note: People with mental illness like to be refered to as people with a mental illness. Not, the mentally ill. They are not their disease.

Daniel

03-16-2008, 09:23 AM

One last thing for Daniel and it is just a note: People with mental illness like to be refered to as people with a mental illness. Not, the mentally ill. They are not their disease.

That said, I didn't - consciously - mean to imply that those with mental illness are synonymous with the same.

This does, of course, open up interesting territory insofar as those who veiw gayness as an illness. In that sense, we are seen as one and the same.

This also reminds me of something Gore Vidal said- though I can't remember the exact words- but he was opposed to the whole idea of people calling themselves gay or homosexual. He was implying- of course- that what people do is not synonymous with what they are. I believe he saw the matter as the difference between being a noun and a verb.

Emproph

03-16-2008, 11:09 AM

I have never read a course in miracles, but have been told I should.You don't need to read it. You've already passed the course.

Zerbie

03-16-2008, 11:43 AM

Re A Course in Miracles and how Joe may be seeing Ms. Kern's actions -and words- as a call for love:

Clearly, and I think (am I correct? speak up if I'm wrong!) that everyone here at SF sees it as precisely that.

We seem to have some different views as to the ways in which to express and convey that love, and to whom it should be expressed in what degrees.

I feel in NO way called to be fond of Kern or to try (hahaha!) to befriend her in some personal way (not that it would be possible.) I feel called to oppose what she is doing, but as much as possible to do so in a way that is respectful of her personhood. To me, that is loving behavior. To just name-call and send her a note saying "your hatred is sick and you have no place in public service" is useless at best and adding fuel to the fire at worst. Surely such a response would solidify her perceptions of the LGBT and allied community as the source of the hatred, leaving her even less likely to discover the negativity is sourced in her own brain. Sorry, Joe, if that is judgmental, but, well, I wouldn't say it if I didn't think it was a correct assessment.

Btw - before we leave the subject, brava to Lady for her excellent commentary. :award:

action of a mentally ill person isn't evil, is it?

HELL YES!! It certainly can be. It does not mean the person is. But I suppose, depending on definitions, that is also possible.
Perhaps evil itself IS a mental illness - the worst kind.

Back to Zerbie's thought: can the person carrying the baggage become the baggage?

No. They can only identify with it and make their existence on earth as close a reflection of it as they choose to (or fall into.) I think that if the 'evil' itself winds up sort of, taking over, then the original person is dead.

Joe Brummer

03-16-2008, 12:24 PM

You don't need to read it. You've already passed the course.

Did I get a diploma? or a certificate?

ladyinred

03-16-2008, 05:43 PM

According to the course ,judgment in terms of condemnation is defined as this;"It is the judgment of one mind of another as unworthy of love and therefore deserving of punnishment."(Whatever form that takes )
An honest observation I think is what Zerbie is making. But practicing being nonjudgmental does not mean you condone or agree with the other person's actions especially if they are harmful, you just don't have thoughts of ill will or malice toward them, you aren't out to settle a score so to speak or to be vindictive. The problem is we don't always know what is behind a person's words or actions, we see the surface, not necessarily what is underneath that behavior .People who were brought up in fundamentalist churches have a hard time I think seeing beyond the scope of what they have been taught or conditioned to believe, perhaps it stems from inner insecurity, or a genuine fear that they are going against God's word if they embrace and accept homosexuals as people and equal citizens, after all many of them literally believe what is written in the bible. Perhaps they think it is a sin to ask questions or to doubt what is written in the bible or they think to challenge the validity of written scripture is to go against God's will.They may have difficulty seeing anything other than what they were told to believe because they may see it as " blasphemous"" to think otherwise.. you can say it is hard-wired into them. People are conditioned in many cases to think the way they think. But I don't believe hate is innate. Observing very young children, I haven't noticed this quality in them.

Here is another observation, think about the people who have come out of ex-gay therapies who come from churches with fundamentalist beliefs, they also have been led to believe homosexuality is sinful and goes against God's will, which is why many of them enter these therapies in the first place, so you can say it is diificult for them to go against what they have been conditioned to believe as well, because it has been ingrained into them from early childhood.

According to the "Course" We are to challenge every value we hold and look again, it does not rely on biblical scripture for authority but states to challenge our beliefs and even goes so far to challenge biblical scriptures and the apostles writings, it is actually training people to see another way to look at the world and the people and events in it and to follow inner guidance to do so .But it does say fear is the opposite of love.

Dealing with the perceptions of people which are often subjective, one person sees one thing in one light , another person can see the same event or another person from an entirely different perspective.

If we look back historically, look how slow we have been to address human issues and inequality, for example slavery has been around for centuries,partly because of what was written in the bible, look how slowly change has been made.Jesus often confronted the religious leaders of his time because they clung to old jewish customs like not working on the sabbath, viewed certain people as unclean, were prejudiced against the gentiles among other things, what did he do? Challenged their thinking along these lines and their interpretations of the scripture and how they served God. Jesus obviously did not cling to old jewish customs like jewish dietary laws and about the sabbath(old testament; put to death those who work on the sabbath, Jesus broke the sabbath on numerous occasions along with his deciples) and treated the "outcasts" of society quite differently from the social and accepted "norms" of his day. He often approached those who were deemed unclean in an entirely different way ( Under jewish law ,people who were considered "unclean" were not to be approached and were "untouchable"). In the old testament ,adulterers were stoned to death;it was said to be a "commandment" from God,;but did Jesus accept scripture on authority when he confronted the crowd who was about to stone a woman for adultery, he did the exact opposite, he spared her life and showed mercy. Now if he challenged the authority of written scripture and went against it in many cases, isn't safe to say, that we should be just as open to think along the same lines?

We no longer think it a sin to mix fibers, to eat shellfish or pork and don't really observe a sabbath with the same strict observance of the ancient jewish tribes. And besides often the problem with interpreting the bible is we are dealing with a historical perspective, that we as modern people can't relate to or might not understand from that frame of reference.Do we actually know with absolute certainty what the perspective of the author was or what he was trying to convey, living in a certain culture at a certain time and dealing with the language and customs of that particular time? Do we still sacrifice animals to atone for our "sins" ,or do we view these as antiquated and redundant?

People are made to evolve as obviously was the case with Jesus, he was more evolved than his religious counterparts because he was more enlightened. He broke out of the mold of accepted social and religious "norms" of his day, so did Ghandi, Buddha, Martin Luther King and others

The problem and why I bring this up is ,people from a fundamentalist ubringing often don't interpret the bible the way people here do(With a more open mind and less likely to take every word literally.) They tend to see it quite literally as the undisputed ,infallible, unchangeable word of God, with no change or evolving what so ever.It is written therfore it is .And nothing changes. Well things change obviously , at one time it was believed that the world was flat, and that has changed with a better understanding of the earth and science.

Also written passages in the bible that seem to condemn homosexuality, they(Fundamentalists) often fail to see(Again) in a historical context or from the perspective of the culture and customs of the time that were practiced by the ancient Hebrews and others. I've read stuff that biblical scholars have written when they examine these particular scriptures who have a backround of the culture and times, and even read about the practices of these ancient cultures and ,they are quite different than our culture today in many ways.If the written word were never challenged or re-examined would we have made the progress we have today, most likely not... we'd be like some third world country and still be stoning people to death.

We wonder how "they" the fundamentalists could cling to such beliefs, again they have been raised in those types of churches, taught it from day one and as I said before have it hard-wired into their way of thinking, and their perspective of the world and other people is colored by that.

I remember reading about one mom who was a fundamentalist Christian, who found out her son was gay ,and basically reacted the way alot of these parents do, she thought he needed to get help.It was not until her son committed suicide that she begin to question how she thought , she begin to see her son in another light as a human being who had worth and dignity the way he was. She finally said she wished she had reacted differently to her son and had been there for him , but she said at the time she firmly believed that it was wrong and he needed to get help or otherwise he would end up in hell.

ladyinred

03-16-2008, 08:04 PM

I thought I'd post this . (I have this one on my web-blog as well)
:“There are two visions of America. One precedes our founding fathers and finds its roots in the harshness of our puritan past. It is very suspicious of freedom, uncomfortable with diversity, hostile to science, unfriendly to reason, contemptuous of personal autonomy. It sees America as a religious nation. It views patriotism as allegiance to God. It secretly adores coercion and conformity. Despite our constitution, despite the legacy of the Enlightenment, it appeals to millions of Americans and threatens our freedom. The other vision finds its roots in the spirit of our founding revolution and in the leaders of this nation who embraced the age of reason. It loves freedom, encourages diversity, embraces science and affirms the dignity and rights of every individual. It sees America as a moral nation, neither completely religious nor completely secular. It defines patriotism as love of country and of the people who make it strong. It defends all citizens against unjust coercion and irrational conformity. This second vision is our vision. It is the vision of a free society. We must be bold enough to proclaim it and strong enough to defend it against all its enemies.”
~ Rabbi Sherwin Wine (Even against the coercion of fundamentalism and it's beliefs; my addition)

Vanessa White

03-17-2008, 09:00 AM

I think, as persons who embrace nonviolence, we are called upon to not only speak out against those that villify us, but at the same time, to educate them, and/or others, about the truth of who we are and what we represent. I don't think we can JUST condemn the negative actions of others. Sure, that task is a bitch; it is extremely difficult. I don't know that after hearing Sally Kern's speech that I can think of her in a loving way, but I CAN think of her with some level of understanding of where her actions may be coming from; and I can also believe that she is not by any means, evil, even if her actions do cause harm.

The thing is, if we do not call ourselves to the task of educating others about who we are and what we deserve, they continue to view us in an inaccurate, judgmental way. Maybe they still do after we educate; but I have seen some minds open up and change.

And, the point is well made about her son being gay; I think that intensifies what is going on with her about this issue. We don't have to like what others say about us, or take it lying down; but I really believe that it is fully our responsibility to possess compassion about why they believe what they do. And, her words can feel very personal, without us taking it personally. Meaning, it does not have to shake the view through which we see ourselves. We can still view our selves in the beautiful, radiant light that we are meant to. And hope and pray that Sally will one day have the courage to embrace truth and establish a healthy, loving relationship with her son. I really do wish that for her. :love:

Joe Brummer

03-17-2008, 11:13 AM

I am not sure about others, but I have struggled with a bit of frustration at some of the responses from GLBT folks to Sally Kern. There is even a myspace page (http://www.myspace.com/shameonsally) called "shame of sally" but I don't see how this type of response helps us.

People make fun of her hair, her ideas, her religion and then wonder why she dislikes us or finds us a threat. The song on the myspace layout is "if I only had a brain." I was angry when I saw this. Is our answer to hate just more hate? How does this help?

They are annoucing that tomorrow is a rally in Oklahoma and they are selling shirts with pictures of Sally Kerns with "witty" things on them. I only hope the witty sayings are respectful.

I am personally embarrassed by the way so many of the GLBT folks have reacted to Ms. Kern's comments. Hate is no more a cure for hate then violence is a cure for violence. I guess for so many these witty comments are like Chicken soup is for a cold. It doesn't help at all, but it makes you believe it does.

Zerbie

03-17-2008, 11:29 AM

I agree such responses, aired publicly, are totally counterproductive.

Expressed privately, they are a means of coping with emotion which should be allowed to flow, but in private. The public response needs to be respectful - we should offer what our adversary does not. That delineates who is reacting without basis from who is being polite, respectful, and pleasant, or at least reasonable, to deal with.

You might wanna drop the analogy - I read someplace recently that a recent study shows chicken soup DOES help bust colds. No, I don't remember where I read that. :p

BenL

03-17-2008, 01:37 PM

People make fun of her hair, her ideas, her religion and then wonder why she dislikes us or finds us a threat. The song on the myspace layout is "if I only had a brain." I was angry when I saw this. Is our answer to hate just more hate? How does this help?

You're right, Joe, it doesn't help. It's called an ad hominen argument. When you can't counter a stand on its merits (or faults) you attack the person who holds it. It's a strategy that is as old as humankind. And if you can generate even a small dislike for a person who holds a certain position, it's a very small step to villifying the whole class of people. But, as Zerbie so rightly observes, it works well for releasing tension and coping with emotion.

We have to have our own version of "hate the sin, love the sinner." It should be something like, "stand up for truth, but love the misguided."

tdogg

03-17-2008, 03:03 PM

First, a hug for Joe. I consider myself a fairly peaceful and peaceloving person, but I'm not even in the same ballpark as you Joe. Every thread such as this does help me get about a 1/10th of an inch closer, but I fear it's a long long way to your place. :love:

I think there are kinda two issues here. How do we react, or better yet, be proactive about Ms. Kern's remarks. And how do we treat Ms. Kerns in light of her remarks. I believe there is room for a non-violent response while still sending the message regarding the inappropriateness of what was said. Firm but loving. Compassionate yet confident. Non-confrontational and non-abusive.

In dealing with this, one must be respectful of the other person. We can't worry about how the other person will be, we are only responsible and only have control over ourselves. Consider this is another human being, with thoughts, emotions, opinions, feelings, upbringings, faith beliefs, political beliefs, etc. Consider all of these may differ drastically from our own. Consider how we would like the other person to treat us, and how it feels when we are not treated with respect.

Then, with compassion and understanding, not accusations and name-calling, let Ms. Kerns know how her words affect you, as an individual, GLBT's as a community and society as a whole. Educate her about what terms are in or out. Provide her with an opportunity to hear your story so that she may better see where you/we are coming from and why we believe the way we do. Be prepared to listen to the other side, even if you've heard it a hundred or a million times before. You have to listen some before you will be heard.

Respectfully request what it is you want to request. If the request is declined, go from there. I'm not sure treating everyone like they are a wonderful, loving, gracious and accepting person is going to work in this case. It isn't how we've come as far as we have. But I do totally agree that respect for the individual and where they are coming from is vital before we can have a discussion for change.

When being reactive to words or actions, one tends to be accusatory, angry, hurt, and give negative and useless feedback. That rarely ever works (if ever). We have to learn to be proactive, how can we use this to move forward? How can we use this for change, progress? How can this end up being a positive, instead of a negative, event? One of the things I loved best about your original post Joe, was the open invitation to Ms. Kerns to visit you. While Ms. Kerns may never take you up on it, it does demonstrate that you respect her, and consideration and compassion for her, and you are giving her the opportunity to see the truth first hand. That will best any argument one such as Ms. Kerns could present against the GLBT community.

Joe Brummer

03-17-2008, 06:34 PM

Zerbie

03-17-2008, 10:10 PM

I don't really consider myself peaceful. I just want a better world, and I fear the tactics we are taking are not getting us there. I need safety and I am afraid

People are more worried about being right then doing right. It scares me.

Yes, I see this too. It IS scary!

In essence, I am not peaceful, I am afraid for us, all of us.
but I thank you for the hug. I like the warmth I feel by such things.

Thank you, Joe. This is the first time I've seen past the non-violent educator to some of what you really think and feel. I want to add my hugs to the queue.
:love::love::love:

ladyinred

03-17-2008, 11:07 PM

Here's a quotatation I found, “The Christian resolve to find the world ugly and bad has made the world ugly and bad.”
— Nietzsche

This says something about perception and how people view things.

Joe Brummer

03-18-2008, 05:55 PM

This article by Peter LaBarbera from "Americans for Truth" is evidence of why we need to teach queer nonviolence. If we don't, everry angry reply is used against us.

‘Queer’ Quotes: Hating Jesus, and Selfishness Redefined (http://americansfortruth.com/news/queer-quotes-hating-jesus-and-selfishness-redefined.html#more-1809)

Daniel

03-19-2008, 01:05 AM

I don't really consider myself peaceful. I just want a better world, and I fear the tactics we are taking are not getting us there. I need safety and I am afraid the other side is so busy retaliating to our shots at them that someone will be injured in the crossfire. I value justice but know that justice is only possible when all involved are looking for it. Right now, I believe everyone is looking for power and self-esteem, not justice. People are more worried about being right then doing right. It scares me.

In essence, I am not peaceful, I am afraid for us, all of us.

but I thank you for the hug. I like the warmth I feel by such things.

I share you fear and frustration. And I feel your fear too. That said, I want to add my own virtual hug into the circie.

Joe- even though you have these feelings, please know that your actions, words and intentions are far far reaching, more far reaching than you might suppose. I've read your blog- you've put considerable effort, time, energy and commitment into this work. It counts for something. Big time. That is what I have faith in. Truth speaking. And you do that- nonviolently.

Every action, and even the tiniest ripple of the water reaches the fathest shore even though we cannot not see it when we are in the middle of the ocean- in the middle of our feelings- which can be oceanic.

Stay the course my friend. And let us keep in mind that some who say they speak for many only speak for themselves. And this becomes self-evident in time. The LaBarera's of this world do not speak for all Christians. And there is hope in that, yes?

hippie4lyfe

03-19-2008, 10:51 AM

Please watch this clip of the hateful Oklahoma state represenative Sally Kern http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFxk7glmMbo&eurl

Feel free to contact her by phone and email and let her know that her bigoted views do not represent you.

Capitol Address: 2300 N. Lincoln Blvd. Room 332 Oklahoma City, OK 73105

District Address: 2713 Sterling Ave., Oklahoma City, OK 73127.

Phone: (405) 557-7348.
Email: sallykern@okhouse.gov

ladyinred

03-19-2008, 02:24 PM

Hey Joe, you might be interested in this:http://resistancetraining.wordpress.com/2007/08/22/nonviolent-communication/ This may have to do with what you are seeking in terms of nonviolent resistance and communication. I would urge others here to watch the videos too, I found it helpful.What I did was type in nonviolent communication, and came across these videos. We all have something to learn from them I think. It will also help us in understanding ourselves better and why we react the way we do , why we get angry and defensive and see what is behind that. I thought the first video was really good, I think you all will get alot out of it. I know I did.

Joe Brummer

03-19-2008, 06:35 PM

Joe Brummer

03-19-2008, 06:40 PM

Ps to that....

you can learn Nonviolent Communication for Free! Here is how:

-go to the website: http://nvctraining.com

-Click "register" and choose "Introduction to Nonviolent Communication" (free)

-I would also suggest taking the Email course too! Very helpful since we deal online.

-Fill out contact info at bottom of page and follow instructions.

Learn and check in with me later to tell me what you thought!

I would also suggest reading "Speak Peace" or "Nonviolent Communication: A Langauge of life" You can read this books at Google Books!

ladyinred

03-19-2008, 10:05 PM

Ok, thanks Joe,I wasn't aware that you were familar with it, but I was listening to the videos and he impressed me as someone who knew what he was talking about.I'll check the website out.

I also would like to add when LGBT people react to harsh rhetoric, there is a need as well, LGBT people want to be safe from the violence that is directed at them. So I think we have to see both sides of the coin, we have examine ourselves as well. When you hear all the stories of gay bashing, students and older LGBT people being assaulted there is a concern on our part. Who wants to be the brunt of that? Who wants to be on the receiving end of that?

I think that has alot to do with why LGBT people get angry because many times they feel ,no one is listening or hearing their side as well,it just falls on deaf ears, so to speak.They are a minority after all, and there are concerns that people may take the rhetoric of Sally Kern's as a means of justifying hurting or assaulting LGBT people. After all if they are truly a threat and worse than terrorists,some person may get that it is ok to justify violence against LGBT people. I was listening to the winter soldiers on a podcast, and this may seem out of context, but the marines were talking about their training and how they were taught to dehumanize the "enemy" ,I gathered from what they were saying this often justified the things they were doing to the Iraqi people, dehumanization of people I guess makes it easier to justify atrocities against those people. This is similar when the religious right paints LGBT people as non-human beings worthy of respect,it dehumanizes LGBT people as well.It gives a green light for people to hate and perhaps to go so far as to assault and do other things,the other person is seen as reprehensible and "evil" and not like "us".

ladyinred

03-19-2008, 11:31 PM

And it is also some stretch of the imagination to believe that gay people are destroying marriages and families. When do people take responsibility for their own lives and relationships? What Jim and Buddy are doing three miles down the street affects the family life of Jenny and Bob? How do they affect their marriage and family life? So I guess because Jenny and Bob are having marital strife and other problems and difficulty holding their relationship together , it has to do with what Jim and Buddy are doing in their own bedroom? If you look at it that way it seems preposterous.It's like stubbing your toe on a rock and saying the "rock" did it. Sometimes I'm not great at putting things into words but I think you understand what I'm trying to say. Their logic basically is as flawed.."If those damned gays didn't want to get married we wouldn't have so many problems in our families and marriages, they are out to destroy us and marriage and society!!!!" I also feel it may be a projection of ones own problems and blame onto gay people,for something they may not be willing to see in their own lives,that they need to confront and face within themselves.That is not to condemn them, but making someone else the bad guy or scapegoat is never going to get to the root of the problem or resolve conflicts.

Joe Brummer

03-20-2008, 07:38 PM

The following is an email I sent to the Victory Fund today. I have also posted this on my blog and myspace. It is my hope that this letter make its way around so the message gets out!

Dear Victory Fund,

Thank you to the Victory Fund for your work exposing the comments made by Oklahoma Representative Sally Kern. Her words were a stark and sad reminder how far we really have to go before we are seen as normal in the eyes of those living in the heartland of America. I thought the video and the show of disapproval were a great way of bringing her comments into the sunlight of justice where they can be seen as the damaging and hurtful call to arms that they are.

Sally Kern’s words filled me with sadness. To be compared to a terrorist because of who I love was and is painful. I remember watching planes fly into the sides of buildings, killing thousands of people on September 11, 2001. I remember wondering who would do such a thing. I wondered how I could ever find empathy for those people. I still struggle to do that, but need and wish to be compassionate and know I cannot truly be compassionate until I can find forgiveness when others do wrong against me. I refuse to be anything but loving, forgiving and stronger than those who hurt me. I believe it takes more strength to stand up in love than it does to lash out in retaliation.

To be compared with the same people who I saw flying planes into the side of a building is hurtful, but again I refuse to sink to the level and energy that produced such comments in the first place. I refuse to hate Sally Kern and I also refuse to wish anything but the best for her. I refuse to applaud those who sent her nasty messages or emails because I believe those things only serve to create more fear. They do us no good.

I do applaud the rallies and petitions that call for her removal. I applaud the nonviolent actions that respectfully and with dignity ask Ms. Kern to step down from her position. I felt confident we could rise above such hate when I saw that a group of GLBT folks wanted to meet with Ms. Kern. Nothing could be more powerful then knowing she has seen us in a true and real light.

I would hope that the next time the Victory Fund is in a position to bring such hurtful and inaccurate comments to the surface, that they urge the GLBT response to be nonviolent. It is sad we need to make such a call but it appears we do. Ms. Kern is no different than the Bull Connors, the Senator Bilbo’s or the Fred Phelps family, but our response must rise above the hate. The only true remedy for hate is love. The only force strong enough to defeat injustice is the power of unarmed and nonviolent truth. We as GLBT Americans must learn from the civil rights movements before us that no matter how much violence and hate they shoot at us we will let no man drag us so low as to make us hate them.

Sincerely,
Joe Brummer

Daniel

03-20-2008, 08:36 PM

Well spoke.....well spoke....

Peace, love and joy to you Joe.

:love:

Vanessa White

03-21-2008, 03:11 PM

Joe: You did write a beautiful letter here; I was so moved by the Victory Fund's creation of the Utube video, with various people holding signs; it really impacted me. It also got me curious and I checked out their website, and found it interesting.

keltic63

03-26-2008, 09:56 AM

http://www.kfor.com/Global/category.asp?C=22780&nav=menu99_2

Sally Kern was on a Sunday morning debate show. I watched this earlier today, and I must say, it put me in a bad mood. The bias is apparent from the very beginning. sadly, the "openly gay" minister doesn't get much of a chance to speak thanks to the rude interruptions of Sally and another panel member. The minister does make a good point about Sally's opposition to certain groups organizing to take political action. Projection? Perhaps Sally is upset that the homosexuals are doing what the religious right has done for years.

matthewspeed

03-26-2008, 11:29 AM

Paul,
Excellent idea. She would see us as real people, fighting for a legitimate cause - freedom. She would not see Soulforce as an information tool on how to "pick up" men in bathroom stalls. Sadly, many people are only exposed to news media on how gays are on a mission to have sex with any man they can find their hands on!

inca nitta

03-26-2008, 01:56 PM

keltic63

03-26-2008, 02:38 PM

Yes, Sally is upset that there are open homosexuals in American politics, but she said that she has nothing against individual gay people, she says she loves them.

Apparently, that gay man Jesse, was not her son, as everybody thought he was.

the transcript of her original statements:

Full transcript of a speech by Sally Kern on the "gay agenda" with a backhanded slap at Islam

The homosexual agenda [Loud snap] is destroying this nation. OK? It's just a fact. [Volume increases] Not everybody's lifestyle is equal, just like not all religions are equal.
You know, the very fact that I'm talking to you like this here today, puts me in jeopardy. OK? Uh and I'm not anti, I'm not gay-bashing, but according to God's word that is not the right kind of lifestyle, it has deadly consequences for those people involved in it, they have more suicides, uh and they're more discouraged, there's more illness, their uh lifespans are shorter, you know?
It's, it's, it's not a lifestyle that is good for this nation.
'Matter of fact, studies show, that no society that has totally embraced homosexuality has lasted more than, you know, a few decades.
So it's the death knell of this country.
I honestly think it's the biggest threat even, that our nation has, even more so than terrorism or Islam, which I think is a big threat. OK?
Because what's happening now, they're going after er uh in schools - two year-olds!
You know why they're trying to get early childhood education? They want to get our young children into the government schools so they can indoctrinate them! I taught school for close to twenty years and we're not teaching facts and knowledge anymore folks, we're teaching indoctrination. OK?
And they're going after our young children, as young as two years of age, to try to teach them that the homosexual lifestyle is the acceptable lifestyle.
You know, gays are infiltrating city councils.
Do you know? Eureka Springs [Arkansas], anybody been there, for the [Great] Passion Play? [A "Creation Truth" production] OK, have you heard that the city council of Eureka Springs is now controlled by gays? OK?
There are some others. Uh, Pittsburgh, Pa.; Tacoma, Md.; Kensington, Md.; in Vermont, Oregon, West Palm Beach, Fla. and a lot of other places in Florida.
What's happening? And they are winning elections. One of the things I deal with in our legislature, I tried to introduce a bill last year, that would notify parents, uh schools had to let parents know what clubs their students were involved in.
And the reason I did that bill, primarily, was this, we had the Gay-Straight Alliance coming into our schools.
Kids are getting involved in these groups, their lives are being ruined, their parents don't know about it. So I introduced a bill that said you have to notify all clubs, and things. And one of my colleagues said, "Well, you know we don't have a gay problem in my community, so that's why I voted against that bill."
Well you know what? To me that is so dumb. If you've got cancer or something in your little toe, do you say, Well you know I’m just gonna forget about it, 'cause the rest of you's fine?
It spreads! OK?
And this, this stuff is deadly, and it's spreading and it will destroy uh our young people, it will destroy this nation.

which one of these statements is the one where she shows love for individual gay people?

matthewspeed

03-26-2008, 03:04 PM

keltic63

03-26-2008, 07:36 PM

I listened to the Flashpoint interview. It's sad that the openly gay pastor was not given the same amount of time to share his points regarding scripture. Sally was allowed to spew her judgements and then talk about "love" for the gay community. I wish the moderator would have limited Sally's comments and allowed the pastor to explain his interpretation of the scriptures regarding homosexuality.

the host, Kevin Ogle says, "good morning, and welcome to Flashpoint on this Easter morning, such an important morning for christians around the world as we celebrate the resurrection of the Lord, Jesus Christ. Which brings us to the question "what would Jesus think? What is he thinking about this controversy we have going on in Oklahoma right now?"

I seems to me that the host isn't even trying to appear to be objective. A minute or so later he introduces Scott Jones, an "openly gay pastor." He goes on to say that they are going to be talking about this "controversy that has reared its head."

It's amazing how right winged Christians will talk about Gods moral and civil laws and make distinguishes between the two, because it fits into their predjudices. If they see a particular practice in the Old Testament that does not fit into thier modern view, they throw that in the "moral" law code. She also made a comment on the scripture that "They will know us by our fruits." If Sally would open her mind to observe many gay christians, with out knowing their sexual orientation, she would see the fruitful lives of gay christans - their faithfulness to God, their love for the gospel, their love for the lost.

IF the fundies want to make the distinctions in those laws, it is incumbent on them to use scripture to define the guidelines. for example, if a particular verse is to be considered a "moral" law, then there must be a scripture that helps us determine that it is such, and not civil or ceremonial, otherwise humans assign them as such, at their own whim, or according to their own prejudice.

Not only did this host present as biased, he didn't even attempt to give the Pastor equal time. He allowed her to run all over this segment. Too bad Scott Jones wasn't a stronger speaker.