Protest in Tibet

[Daniel]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/15/world/asia/15tibet.html?hp


March 15, 2008
Chinese Police Clash With Tibet Protesters

By JIM YARDLEY
BEIJING — Violent protests erupted Friday in a busy market area of Lhasa, the Tibetan capital, as Buddhist monks and other ethnic Tibetans clashed with Chinese security forces. Witnesses say the protesters burned shops, cars, military vehicles and at least one tourist bus.

The chaotic scene marked the most violent demonstrations since protests by Buddhist monks began in Lhasa on Monday, the anniversary of a failed Tibetan uprising against Chinese rule in 1959. The protests have been the largest in Tibet since the late 1980s, when Chinese security forces repeatedly used lethal force to restore order in the region.

The developments prompted the Dalai Lama, the exiled spiritual leader of Tibetan Buddhism, to issue a statement, saying he was concerned about the situation and appealing to the Chinese leadership to “stop using force and address the long-simmering resentment of the Tibetan people”.

By Friday night, Chinese authorities had placed much of the central part of the city under a curfew, including neighborhoods around different Buddhist monasteries, according to two Lhasa residents reached by telephone. Military police were blocking roads in some ethnic Tibetan neighborhoods, several Lhasa residents said.

Meanwhile, the United States Embassy in Beijing warned American citizens to stay away from Lhasa. The embassy said it had “received firsthand reports from American citizens in the city who report gunfire and other indications of violence.”

The Chinese government’s official news agency, Xinhua, issued a two-sentence bulletin, in English, confirming that shops in Lhasa had been set on fire and that other stores had closed because of violence on the streets. But the Chinese news media otherwise carried no news about the protests. The disturbances appear to be becoming a major problem for the ruling Communist Party, which is holding its annual meeting of the National People’s Congress this week in Beijing. China is eager to present a harmonious image to the rest of the world as Beijing prepares to play host to the Olympic Games in August.

Information emerging about Friday’s protests was scattered and difficult to verify. But witnesses in Lhasa say the violence erupted on Friday morning at the Tromsikhang Market, a massive, concrete structure built in the old Tibetan section of the city by Chinese authorities in the early 1990s. “It’s chaos in the streets,” said a person who answered the telephone at a bread shop near the market.

A local travel agent, reached by telephone, said a riot broke out at the market and around the nearby Ramoche Temple because of friction between Tibetan and Han Chinese traders. The agent said fires erupted near the Ramoche Temple and elsewhere in the market area, while Tibetan traders also overturned a tour bus and set it ablaze.

“There was a fight between the bus owner and the Tibetans who set the fire,” said the agent, who is Han Chinese. “But not serious. Only several people got hurt.”

The demonstrations apparently expanded as protesters set fire to other shops. Western news agencies reported that monks from the Ramoche Temple went into the streets and clashed with police officers. “The monks are still protesting,” one witness told the Associated Press. “Police and army cars were burned. There are people crying. Hundreds of people, including monks and civilians are in the protests.”

Meanwhile, anxious tourists stranded in Lhasa posted worried comments on online forums for travelers. “The situation seems to be very nervous and paranoid up here,” wrote one person in broken grammar and spelling on a Lonely Planet guide chat room. “There is police and military everywhere. Suddenly you would see some policeman running and rushig somewhere...”

Another Lhasa resident reached by telephone described Friday’s protests as the most violent of the week. “There have been several riots in recent days,” said Ms. Liu, the resident, who would only give her surname. She said friends who witnessed the riots described them to her. “Today’s riot is more serious. I have a full-time job in a state-owned company, and we got notice from our superiors not to go watch the riots.”

In his statement, the Dalai Lama said: “These protests are a manifestation of the deep-rooted resentment of the Tibetan people under the present governance.” He also called on his “fellow Tibetans not to resort to violence.”

Beijing has kept a tight lid on dissent in the months before the Olympic Games. But people with grievances against the governing Communist Party have tried to promote their causes at a time when, with heavy international attention focused on China, top officials may be wary of cracking down using force.

Tibet was taken militarily by China in 1951 and has remained contentious, particularly because of the bitter relations between the Communist Party and the Dalai Lama.

Sporadic talks between China and the Dalai Lama’s representatives have produced no results, and Beijing continues to condemn him as a “splitist” determined to severe the region’s ties to China. In the past, the Dalai Lama has said that he accepts Chinese rule but that Tibetans need greater autonomy to practice their religion.

Accounts from Tibetan advocacy groups, from the United States-financed Radio Free Asia and from tourists’ postings on the Internet suggest that protests emerged from three of the most famous monasteries in Tibetan Buddhism.

Robert Barnett, a Tibet specialist at Columbia University who has communicated with Tibetan exiles, said the initial incident occurred Monday afternoon when about 400 monks left Drepung Loseling Monastery intending to march five miles west to the city center. Police officers stopped the march at the halfway point and arrested 50 or 60 monks.

But Mr. Barnett said the remaining monks held the equivalent of a sit-down strike and were joined by an additional 100 monks from Drepung. The monks “were demanding specific changes on religious restrictions in the monastery,” said Mr. Barnett. He said monks want the authorities to ease rules on “patriotic education” in which monks are required to study government propaganda and write denunciations of the Dalai Lama.

On Tuesday morning, the Drepung monks apparently agreed to return to the monastery.

But another protest was under way in the heart of the city, outside the Jokhang Temple, the most sacred temple in Tibet. About a dozen monks from the Sera Monastery staged a pro-independence protest, waving a Tibetan flag in front of onlookers in the crowded square outside the temple. Police officers arrested the monks. Foreign tourists posted video on the Internet of officers shooing away people.

The arrests sparked another protest on Tuesday. Witnesses told Radio Free Asia that 500 or 600 monks poured out of the Sera Monastery, about two miles north of the Jokhang Temple. They shouted slogans and demanded the release of their fellow monks.

“Free our people, or we won’t go back!” the monks chanted, Radio Free Asia reported. “We want an independent Tibet!”

Witnesses said that police fired tear gas to disperse the crowd.

A protest was reported Wednesday at Ganden Monastery, about 35 miles east of Lhasa.

Radio Free Asia reported Thursday that two monks at Drepung had attempted suicide.

Mr. Barnett said the protests were the largest in Lhasa since 1989, when protests by monks from the Drepung and Sera monasteries led to a bloody clash with Chinese security forces and the imposition of martial law.

Huang Yuanxi, Zhang Jing and Jake Hooker contributed research from Beijing. Graham Bowley contributed reporting from New York.

[Daniel]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/16/world/asia/16tibet.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin


Tibetans Clash With Chinese Police in 2nd City

By JIM YARDLEY
Published: March 16, 2008
BEIJING — Thousands of Buddhist monks and other Tibetans clashed with the riot police in a second Chinese city on Saturday, while the authorities said they had regained control of the Tibetan capital, Lhasa, a day after a rampaging mob ransacked shops and set fire to cars and storefronts in a deadly riot.

Conflicting reports emerged about the violence in Lhasa on Friday. The Chinese authorities denied that they had fired on protesters there, but Tibetan leaders in India told news agencies on Saturday that they had confirmed that 30 Tibetans had died and that they had unconfirmed reports that put the number at more than 100.

Demonstrations erupted for the second consecutive day in the city of Xiahe in Gansu Province, where an estimated 4,000 Tibetans gathered near the Labrang Monastery. Local monks had held a smaller protest on Friday, but the confrontation escalated Saturday afternoon, according to witnesses and Tibetans in India who spoke with protesters by telephone.

Residents in Xiahe, reached by telephone, heard loud noises similar to gunshots or explosions. A waitress described the scene as “chaos” and said many injured people had been sent to a local hospital. Large numbers of military police and security officers fired tear gas while Tibetans hurled rocks, according to the Tibetans in India.

“Their slogans were, ‘The Dalai Lama must return to Tibet’ and ‘Tibetans need to have human rights in Tibet,’ ” said Jamyang, a Tibetan in Dharamsala, India, the seat of the Tibetan government in exile, who spoke to protesters.

The violence in Lhasa and Xiahe has created a major political and public relations challenge for the ruling Communist Party as Beijing prepares to play host to the Olympic Games in August. The demonstrations are the largest in Tibet since 1989, when Chinese troops used lethal force to crush an uprising by thousands of Tibetan protesters.

China’s response to the week’s demonstrations is being watched carefully by the outside world. The European Union and the United States have both called on China to act with restraint. The White House called on China to “respect Tibetan culture” and issued a renewed call for dialogue between Beijing and the Dalai Lama, the exiled spiritual leader of Tibetan Buddhism.

The president of the International Olympic Committee, Jacques Rogge, rejected calls for a boycott of the games to protest the crackdown.

“We believe that the boycott doesn’t solve anything,” he said Saturday on the Caribbean island of St. Kitts, The Associated Press reported. “On the contrary. It is penalizing innocent athletes and it is stopping the organization from something that definitely is worthwhile organizing."

The tumult also undercuts a theme regularly promoted by China’s propaganda officials, that Tibetans are a happy minority group, smoothly integrated into the country’s broader ethnic fabric.

“What we see right now, what is happening in Tibet, blows the whole propaganda strategy in Tibet wide open,” said Lhadon Tethong, an official with the New York-based advocacy group Students for a Free Tibet.

On Saturday the Chinese authorities defended their response to the violence in Lhasa. “We fired no gunshots,” said Qiangba Puncog, chairman of the Tibet Autonomous Regional Government, according to state media.

But Tibetan advocacy groups and witnesses in Lhasa offered contradictory accounts. The Tibetan government in exile said at least 30 Tibetans died in the protests, according to Agence France-Presse. Witnesses told Radio Free Asia, the nonprofit news agency financed by the United States government, that numerous Tibetans were dead. A 13-year-old Tibetan boy, reached by telephone, said he watched the violence from his apartment and saw four or five Tibetans fall to the ground after military police officers fired upon them.

Foreign journalists are being restricted from traveling to Lhasa, and the precise death toll remains unknown. State media reported 10 deaths and characterized most of them as shopkeepers. The government’s official news agency, Xinhua, reported that the victims had been “burned to death.”

The demonstrations in Lhasa began Monday and continued through Wednesday as peaceful protests by Buddhist monks from three different monasteries. Some monks protested religious restrictions, while others demanded an end to Chinese rule and even waved the Tibetan flag. The police arrested scores of monks and then reportedly tightened security around the three monasteries so that monks could not leave.

Initially, the protests were largely ignored in the Chinese news media, which were providing blanket coverage of the annual meeting of the National People’s Congress, the Communist Party-controlled national legislature.

But with growing international concern about the protests, and reports that Chinese security forces had attacked monks, the Xinhua news agency issued a short statement blaming rioters for the violence. By Saturday morning, China’s state television network, CCTV, was broadcasting video of Tibetans burning buildings as anchors read directly from a Xinhua report that blamed the Dalai Lama for the violence.

Chinese officials demanded the surrender of the “lawbreakers” in Lhasa and offered leniency to people who turned themselves into the authorities by midnight Monday. Senior officials described the unrest as “sabotage” orchestrated by the Dalai Lama and credited the military police for rescuing 580 people from banks, schools and hospitals that were set afire by rioters.

Gen. Yang Deqing of the People’s Liberation Army said Chinese soldiers would not be deployed and the protests were being handled by local police officers and the country’s paramilitary force, the People’s Armed Police.

“We’ll let the police and the military police handle the disturbance,” General Yang said at the National People’s Congress, where he was a delegate. “We won’t be involved.”

Witnesses in Lhasa on Saturday reported seeing large numbers of military police, armored vehicles and, according to a few reports, tanks.

Several residents, reached by telephone, said that an uneasy calm had settled over the city. Tibetans living in the suburbs said officers were blocking people from entering the city center. Local television broadcast instructions. Power and telephone service, suspended in some neighborhoods on Friday, were being restored on Saturday. Traffic was light on city streets, while most shops were closed.

“It is all under control now,” said one resident, who identified himself as Mr. Liu and who lives near the old part of the city where the violence started. “We were notified to stay at home last night.”

It is still uncertain what set off Friday’s unrest. Tibetan advocates say ordinary Tibetans began rioting after military police officers attacked monks trying to protest outside a monastery in the center of the city.

The extent of the violence was evident in photographs and video shown on the Internet: fires raging from rooftops and from charred vehicles, shattered storefronts and huge crowds trolling city streets.

News agencies reported that foreign tourists were now being prohibited from entering Tibet. The United States Embassy in Beijing issued a new warning on Saturday advising American citizens about danger in Lhasa and other regions.

Huang Yuanxi and Zhang Jing contributed research from Beijing.

Peace monks demonstrating. Sounds like a lot of them were gunned down. And what is the world's response? A shrugging of the shoulders.

This matter concerns us here: these monks face oppression in ways that we can't even imagine.

[Daniel]

Dalai Lama Calls for Tibet Inquiry

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: March 16, 2008
Filed at 8:07 a.m. ET

BEIJING (AP) -- The Dalai Lama called Sunday for an international investigation into China's crackdown against protesters in Tibet, which he said is facing a ''cultural genocide'' and where his exiled government said 80 people were killed in the violence.

The demonstrations were the fiercest challenge to Beijing's rule in the region in nearly two decades, leading to sympathy protests elsewhere and embarrassing China ahead of the Olympic Games.

Along with 80 killed, some 72 people were injured in the protests, said Thubten Samphel, a spokesman for the exiles. He said the figures were confirmed by multiple sources inside Tibet who had counted corpses. China's state media said 10 people died.

Meanwhile, hundreds of armed police and soldiers patrolled the streets of Lhasa two days after Tibetans torched buildings and stoned Chinese residents. Hong Kong Cable TV reported some 200 military vehicles, carrying 40 to 60 armed soldiers each, drove into the city center of Lhasa on Sunday.

Footage showed the streets were mostly empty other than the security forces. Messages on loudspeakers warned residents to ''Discern between enemies and friends, maintain order'' and ''Have a clear stand to oppose violence, maintain stability.''

The Tibetan spiritual leader, speaking in Dharmsala, the north Indian hill town where Tibet's government-in-exile is based, said ''Some respected international organization can find out what the situation is in Tibet and what is the cause.''

''Whether the (Chinese) government there admits or not, there is a problem. There is an ancient cultural heritage that is facing serious danger,'' the Dalai Lama said. ''Whether intentionally or unintentionally, some kind of cultural genocide is taking place.''

It was not immediately clear if he was referring to China's overall policies in Tibet when he spoke of a genocide, or the recent crackdown.

The violence erupted just two weeks before China's Summer Olympic celebrations kick off with the start of the torch relay, which passes through Tibet. China is gambling that its crackdown will not draw an international outcry over human rights violations that could lead to boycotts of the Olympics.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice called on China ''to exercise restraint in dealing with these protests,'' while the State Department issued a travel alert for Americans in the region. Her statement also called for China to release monks and others jailed for protesting.

China's official Xinhua News Agency reported at least 10 civilians were burned to death on Friday. But the Tibetan exiles said that, of the 80 they confirmed were killed, 26 alone died Saturday next to the Drapchi prison in Lhasa. Five girls were killed in the town's central Tibetan neighborhood, said Tenzin Taklha, the senior aide to the Dalai Lama.

China restricts access to Tibet for foreign media, making it difficult to independently verify the casualties and the scale of protests and suppression.

The latest unrest began Monday on the anniversary of a 1959 uprising against Chinese rule. Tibet was effectively independent for decades before communist troops entered in 1950.

Initially, the protests were led by Buddhist monks demanding the release of other detained monks. Their demands spiraled to include cries for Tibet's independence and turned violent Friday when police tried to stop a group of protesting monks. Pent-up grievances against Chinese rule came to the fore, as Tibetans directed their anger against Chinese and their shops, hotels and other businesses.

Amid the clampdown that followed, foreign tourists in Lhasa were told to leave, a hotel manager and travel guide said, with the guide adding that some were turned back at the airport.

Even as Chinese forces appeared to reassert control in Lhasa, sympathy protests had erupted on Saturday in an important Tibetan town 750 miles away in Gansu Province.

Police fired tear gas to disperse hundreds of Buddhist monks and other Tibetans after they marched from the historic Labrang monastery and smashed windows in the county police headquarters in Xiahe, witnesses said.

On Sunday, Gansu provincial Governor Xu Shousheng called the protests ''a planned and organized destructive activity'' and blamed the ''outside Dalai group'' for instigating the riots.

Also in recent days, demonstrations by Tibetan exiles and their supporters sprouted up in neighboring Nepal, New York, Switzerland and Australia.

The Chinese government is hoping a successful Olympics will boost its popularity at home as well as its image abroad. But Beijing's hosting of the Olympics has already attracted scrutiny of China's human rights record and its pollution problems.

So far, international criticism of the crackdown in Tibet has been mild. The U.S. and European Union called for Chinese restraint without any threats of an Olympic boycott or other sanctions.

''What is happening in Tibet and Beijing's responses to it will not affect the games very much unless the issue really gets out of control,'' said Xu Guoqi, a China-born historian at Kalamazoo College in Michigan.

International Olympic Committee president Jacques Rogge said Saturday he opposed an Olympic boycott over Tibet. ''We believe that the boycott doesn't solve anything,'' Rogge told reporters on the Caribbean island of St. Kitts. ''On the contrary, it is penalizing innocent athletes and it is stopping the organization from something that definitely is worthwhile organizing.''

The details emerging from witness accounts and government statements suggested Beijing was preparing a methodical campaign to deal with the unrest -- one that if carefully modulated would minimize bloodshed and avoid wrecking Beijing's grand plans for the Aug. 8-24 Olympics.

In Lhasa, law-enforcement agencies issued a notice offering leniency for demonstrators who surrender before the end of Monday and threatening severe punishment for those who do not.

------

Associated Press Writer Gavin Rabinowitz contributed to this report from Dharmsala, India.

------

On the Net:

International Campaign for Tibet: http://www.savetibet.org

Chinese official news agency (in English): http://www.chinaview.cn



Is that because the issuse of this thread is 'over there' and nothing anyone here- seeminly- can do anything about? 'They' are Buddhist's while most of the participants of this forum - 'us'- are gay Christian and fighting for our own dream in our neck of the woods?

I don't know, but it dismays me that nary a word- or post- has been said by anyone else but myself. And I wonder why that it. The Tibetan people are part and parcel of the very same people who- in a long chain of events- had a hand in bringing about the whole idea of nonviolence which resulted in King and Gandhi.

Have we really lost touch with our own history?

Ok. If ya all think I'm going to turn into Gordon girl and try to make this forum into something entirely different that what it was intended to....well....that ain't gonna happen.

A voice crying into a stiff hard wind. I just wish I wasn't alone.

Neither do the Tibetans it seems.

[Daniel]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/17/world/asia/17tibet.html?hp

[Alecto]

The truth is, I've lately been feeling more and more powerless about affecting any change in this country. Or in my state. Or city. Or pretty much any locality outside of my circle of friends. Recent events have made me tired in a way that I don't often feel tired. And, yeah, part of that's a little bit my fault: I've been keeping myself cooped up which I know will eventually drive me nuts. But I just wanted to say that I do care about these events, it's just I don't even know where to begin on commenting, much less doing something about it.

[Daniel]

The truth is, I've lately been feeling more and more powerless about affecting any change in this country. Or in my state. Or city. Or pretty much any locality outside of my circle of friends. Recent events have made me tired in a way that I don't often feel tired. And, yeah, part of that's a little bit my fault: I've been keeping myself cooped up which I know will eventually drive me nuts. But I just wanted to say that I do care about these events, it's just I don't even know where to begin on commenting, much less doing something about it.

....and understand- totally- how you feel.

I've been watching, reading and hearing about Tibet for a long time now. At one time, I knew a gentlemen who started one of the first relief agencies for Tibetans (he died of cancer some years ago). Through him, I got something of a view into the world of Tibetans.

They are- by and large- a very warm and loving people. They really do take the whole business about compassion seriously. So for there to be protests in Tibet- well....that's serious. Very serious. And monks setting themselves afire in protest? It boggles my mind.

There are some links in one of the previous posts on this thread. Perhaps you could check them out- maybe write your Senator a letter- send 10 bucks to www.savetibet.org Something. Anything. Say a prayer.

All I know is that we are not powerless, though we do feel this way. But feelings change if we stay with them long enough- that's one thing I've learned from these wonderful people.

They taught me - and it's a hard business sometimes- to have compassion with myself- then others. That's hard- really hard. It means facing all kinds of stuff we're rather not face. It means looking into the best and worst about ourselves. Not leaving anything out. Not shying away from our gifts and what makes us all so frail and human.

Holding each other- in our worst and best- change will come- perhaps slowly- but it will come.

I send you much peace- and give myself that peace too.

[Pablo Rafael]

Is that because the issuse of this thread is 'over there' and nothing anyone here- seemingly- can do anything about? 'They' are Buddhist's while most of the participants of this forum - 'us'- are gay Christian and fighting for our own dream in our neck of the woods?



Daniel, Your comment here makes me think. It is very easy to get caught up in our own problems. I haven't given a lot of thought to the problems in Tibet. Now I have to think, "Why?". I think it is because I can't do much about it, and I have my own problems to deal with. It is so easy to get into that selfish mindset. Justice for all the oppressed in this world should be my concern. Thanks for the reminder.

Pablo

[Daniel]

Daniel, Your comment here makes me think. It is very easy to get caught up in our own problems. I haven't given a lot of thought to the problems in Tibet. Now I have to think, "Why?". I think it is because I can't do much about it, and I have my own problems to deal with. It is so easy to get into that selfish mindset. Justice for all the oppressed in this world should be my concern. Thanks for the reminder.


I hear ya- I'm caught up in my own bloody problems this morning: woke up feeling awful- a cold coming on- sore throat- the works- which- as a singer- doesn't make me a happy camper. Hard to care about the rest of world.

Aside from my personal drama: I grieve for the Tibetans. Like the American Indians, they are getting the shaft in full view of God and Country: I don't see any organized - that is- national or international action - being taken on their behalf: for all intent and purposes they are being beseiged out of existence by the Chinese, who, as a matter of course, we will do will not respond to anything this nations says because we are in debt up to our ears to their banks.

Like Darfur- little or nothing is going to be done. Oh....how I would love to be wrong. But I doubt it.

God. I hate my perspective this morning. But I think it's more than the cold at work.

When is any nation actually going to stand up for these people?

I feel like some old prophet in the old testament. When Oh Lord? When? When will you hear the cries of your people?

China Blocks YouTube After Videos of Tibet Protests Are Posted

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/17/business/media/17youtube.html

[keltic63]

Is that because the issuse of this thread is 'over there' and nothing anyone here- seeminly- can do anything about? 'They' are Buddhist's while most of the participants of this forum - 'us'- are gay Christian and fighting for our own dream in our neck of the woods?

I don't know, but it dismays me that nary a word- or post- has been said by anyone else but myself. And I wonder why that it. The Tibetan people are part and parcel of the very same people who- in a long chain of events- had a hand in bringing about the whole idea of nonviolence which resulted in King and Gandhi.

Have we really lost touch with our own history?



I do believe we have lost touch with our history, but is that also because there are fewer gay men left to tell it, thanks to the Aids crisis? Is it because there are some influential people who want to see that story repressed?

If all one has ever been taught about lgbt people is that they drink, party, hook up, and tend to be shallow or bitchy or queeny or all of that, then it is somewhat natural to take on those qualities and take them to new heights. Where is the incentive to learn about the lgbt leaders who have fought so hard to bring about change?

I know that's a long way back to why we haven't responded well to this thread and this issue, but my point is, if we can't respond to our own recent history, how can we move beyond that to this issue?

Daniel, Your comment here makes me think. It is very easy to get caught up in our own problems. I haven't given a lot of thought to the problems in Tibet. Now I have to think, "Why?". I think it is because I can't do much about it, and I have my own problems to deal with. It is so easy to get into that selfish mindset. Justice for all the oppressed in this world should be my concern. Thanks for the reminder.

Pablo

our own problems: absolutely we have them, and they can take up so much of our time. I read this thread when Daniel first posted, and thought to myself "I don't have time for this right now, but I want to come back to it." I've been so busy that I haven't made it back here, and meanwhile, the people in Tibet continue to suffer. What has finally brought me back is a news report I heard on NPR. There were more important details raised, but the one that hit me was the fact that Chinese television is showing the Tibetans at their most violent in order to portray the Chinese as being the victims. I knew then that I had to visit this thread and learn some more.

Daniel, thanks for posting about this.
Pablo, thanks for being candid with your thoughts on this issue.

[keltic63]

There are some links in one of the previous posts on this thread. Perhaps you could check them out- maybe write your Senator a letter- send 10 bucks to www.savetibet.org (http://www.savetibet.org) Something. Anything. Say a prayer.




I'm not sure how much we can do, but it took me only a minute to go to the website, click on the "donate" link, and send them $20. Anyone else with me?

[paul]

Daniel,

Thanks for persevering in this. You are right, we are not powerless.

Over the years I have contributed to an organization "Voice of the Martyrs." Richard Wurmbrand founded it. He was imprisoned for 15 years because of his religious beliefs. He used to tell stories about how conditions would improve when he was in prision when Americans would protest or make statements to our government on behalf of the imprisoned.

Our real powerlessness comes when we believe the lie that we are powerless.

[Daniel]

Anyone else with me?

With ya!


Our real powerlessness comes when we believe the lie that we are powerless.

This cranky cold-ridden mess of a man- bows to the truth of your words.

(sniffle)

[Zerbie]

Dear, dear Danny! :love::love::love:

Now I regret that I did not read this thread until now. Several times in the past few days I saw it, saw that you had added to it, and that there had been no response. Several times I nearly posted just to say thank you for bringing it up and for caring.

Is that because the issuse of this thread is 'over there' and nothing anyone here- seeminly- can do anything about? 'They' are Buddhist's while most of the participants of this forum - 'us'- are gay Christian and fighting for our own dream in our neck of the woods?

I don't know, but it dismays me that nary a word- or post- has been said by anyone else but myself. And I wonder why that it.

. I just wish I wasn't alone.

.

Dear, dear Danny, you are NEVER going to resemble "gordon girl"! This is in NO way similar.

I'll tell you why I have not been responding. The situation there is triggering me. I must avoid exposure to these details or I will degenerate into a series of negative reactions that, rather than helping anyone or anything, will only generate petty negativity towards the people who ARE around me. This is something that I cannot deal with. So it's like I have to ground myself like a naughty teenager until the reaction has calmed down.

Don't take this to mean I don't WANT to be able to deal with it. But right now that sounds like asking me to power lift a 400 pound barbell.

[Daniel]

China Defends Response in Tibet

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/18/world/asia/18tibet.html?hp

And don't we know this story? The abuser gives all the reasons why those who are abused should be beaten, shot and murdered.

It's their fault! Those Tibetans should know better than to get all uppity. How ungrateful of them! We try to improve (by taking over) their country and they get all huffy?

In sum: China says: If you didn't act this way we wouldn't have to kill you.

Kinda like the thug who yells fag and then hits you.

But good things may be developing......

Demonstrations also reached the capital of Beijing, with about 80 students at the Central University for Minorities staging a sit-down protest on the campus late Monday night.

University officials were negotiating with the students, witnesses said, but failed to persuade them to disperse.

Senior Chinese officials seemed anxious on Monday to avoid the appearance of any parallels between the Tibetan protests and the 1989 Tiananmen pro-democracy demonstrations.

China usually squashes all kinds of protests. So I do not expect these supportive actions to last. China is one repressive country. And our biggest trading partner. How's that for cognitive dissonance?

[Daniel]

I understand......really......I do. :love:

[keltic63]

China Defends Response in Tibet

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/18/world/asia/18tibet.html?hp

And don't we know this story? The abuser gives all the reasons why those who are abused should be beaten, shot and murdered.

It's their fault! Those Tibetans should know better than to get all uppity. How ungrateful of them! We try to improve (by taking over) their country and they get all huffy?

In sum: China says: If you didn't act this way we wouldn't have to kill you.

Kinda like the thug who yells fag and then hits you.

But good things may be developing......



China usually squashes all kinds of protests. So I do not expect these supportive actions to last. China is one repressive country. And our biggest trading partner. How's that for cognitive dissonance?

how much will my $20 help? :(

[Vanessa White]

I feel really small when events of the world come up like this. Small, insignificant and powerless, as others have said. There are days when my head and heart are wide open for any new information that can come my way, and other days where I feel like I cannot sustain one more issue to be informed about. Does that sound bitchy?? :( I don't mean for it to. I just feel so overwhelmed by details of human cruelty and injustice, I sometimes know about myself that I don't have additional energy to put toward it, because when I fully take in the information, it becomes less intellectual and more heartfelt and profound.

What your recent posts, and the posts of others here, have prompted me to do is to get educated and knowledgable a bit more about what is going on there. And, I will send prayers up now and ongoing for the Tibetan people and the monks there as well.

Thanks for the nudge, Daniel. Sounds like many of us needed it. Hope you are nursing your cold......:love::love::love:

[Daniel]

how much will my $20 help? :(

It will certainly help those who manage to cross over the mountains and end up in Dharamsala. And it will help keep the Tibetan community there intact.

As I listened to the news tonight, I have the sense that there is a real crisis within the Tibetan community: the DD has always...ALWAYS...cautions his followers not to use violence- but nonviolence resistance. However, there is a faction within the community that isn't happy with this. They want change now.

What's not clear to me is who is organizing these protests- I do not believe (have not heard to the contrary) that the DD is behind it. I seriously doubt it. Since these protests are coming form within Tibet, this tells me that the oppression of the Chinese must be ramping up because of the 'Games' and the ever greater influx of non-Tibetans into Tibet. After they built a railway massive amounts of Chinese people relocated to Tibet, virtually turning the Tibetans into an minority within their own country.

It is no exggageration to say that the Chinese look down on the Tibetans, and see them as being hood-winked by the DD. They have even gone so far as to try to be the arbitrator of who is the next DD. In short, they want to control Tibet. Why? It's vast mineral resources. This whole conflict- on the part of the Chinese- is not about national unity, but about economics.

It's like the our own story here: we took the land Native Indians and 'educated' them, thus depriving them of their heritage.

And there is so much ignorance on the part of Chinese officals....

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/18/world/asia/18china.html?hp

BEIJING — Chinese leaders have blamed “splittists” led by the exiled Dalai Lama for spurring violent protests in Tibet and orchestrating a public relations sneak attack on the Communist Party, as they gear up to play host to the Olympics Games this summer.

But to many Tibetans and their sympathizers, the weeklong uprising against Chinese rule in Lhasa reflects years of simmering resentment over Beijing’s interference in Buddhist religious rites, its tightened political control and the destruction of the environment across the Himalayan territory the Tibetans consider sacred. If there is a surprise, it may be that Beijing has managed to keep things stable for so long.

Since the last big anti-Chinese riots in Tibet two decades ago, Beijing has sought to smother Tibetan separatism by sparking economic development and by inserting itself into the metaphysics of Tibetan Buddhism. But an influx of Han Chinese to Tibet, and a growing sense among Tibetans that China is irreparably altering their way of life, produced a backlash when Communist Party leaders most needed stability there, analysts say.

“Why did the unrest take off?” asked Liu Junning, a liberal political scientist in Beijing. “I think it has something to do with the long-term policy failure of the central authorities. They failed to earn the respect of the people there.”

Tibetans staged anti-Chinese protests in several parts of China on Monday before a midnight deadline to surrender or face harsh consequences. Even in Beijing, Tibetan students held a sit-in to support demonstrators in Lhasa. Around the world there were sympathy protests outside Chinese diplomatic missions..

My sense is that the only reason that there haven't been protests earlier is that the DD was intent on a different solution: but China was deaf to this.

[Gregory_de_Bois]

China Defends Response in Tibet

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/18/world/asia/18tibet.html?hp

And don't we know this story? The abuser gives all the reasons why those who are abused should be beaten, shot and murdered.

It's their fault! Those Tibetans should know better than to get all uppity. How ungrateful of them! We try to improve (by taking over) their country and they get all huffy?

In sum: China says: If you didn't act this way we wouldn't have to kill you.

Kinda like the thug who yells fag and then hits you.

But good things may be developing......



China usually squashes all kinds of protests. So I do not expect these supportive actions to last. China is one repressive country. And our biggest trading partner. How's that for cognitive dissonance?

I know. I am so surprised that we are in such open trade with China. The country has no standards. Even ignoring the plethora of toxins in what they ship over here, the human rights abuses that go on in that country are deplorable. I was listening to NPR a while back and there was an interview with this couple who lived one year without buying anything from China. Apparently there were many, many things they had to live without (coffee makers comes to mind). I also remember hearing that China's and Our economies are so intertwined that we have become completely dependent on the other. It is really sickening. It destroys the very fabric of civilisation. If only the anti-gays could make this their scapegoat, already I can envision how much better the world would be.

[Vanessa White]

I just heard an update on NPR from Beijing, that the Dalai Lama has stated that he will step down if the violence does not stop, by whatever group is protesting violently. I know that I am new to the topic and the discussion, but I don't have the sense either that he orchestrated these protests; it seems like he consistently stands by his nonviolent principles. However, I did wonder how it might have been "incited" in some way by the Chinese government, as a response to the government's oppressive behaviors or to make the government appear like they are trying to take care of the issue. How is that for cynical? :(

[Daniel]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/20/world/asia/20tibet.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin


In Tibet and the neighboring provinces of Qinghai, Gansu and Sichuan, Tibetans live in closer proximity than ever with the Han, who have flooded in with a wave of state-driven investment. But they occupy separate worlds. Relations between the two groups are typically marked by stark disdain or distrust, by stereotyping and prejudice and, among Tibetans, by deep feelings of subjugation, repression and fear.

After decades of heavily financed efforts on the part of China to strengthen its control over Tibet and to tame the country’s far west through gigantic infrastructure projects and resettlement of Han Chinese from the east, the outbreak of protests and a fierce crackdown by Chinese security forces in and around Tibet have laid bare a harsh reality of policy failure.

There is no legalized ethnic discrimination in China, but privilege and power are overwhelmingly the preserve of the Han, while Tibetans live largely confined to segregated urban ghettos and poor villages in their own ancestral lands.

Chinese news programs on the events in Lhasa have reinforced an impression of separate universes that scarcely intersect — one Han and one Tibetan. The programs were clearly intended as propaganda to place the blame for riots on Tibetans and rally Han Chinese in support of a government-led suppression. Over and over, television broadcasts have repeated the same scenes of rampaging Tibetans smashing shop windows and of injured, hospitalized Han, while making no mention of the widely reported deaths among Tibetans during the police crackdown that followed, nor of the underlying grievances that sparked them.

Since the last widespread unrest in Tibet two decades ago, Beijing has sought to undermine separatists in what it calls the Tibetan Autonomous Region. It has invested billions of dollars, encouraged an influx of Han Chinese and inserted itself deeply into the mechanics of Tibetan Buddhism to eliminate the influence of the Dalai Lama, Tibet’s spiritual leader, who fled China for exile in India in 1959 after a failed uprising. But real assimilation, if it were ever the goal, remains elusive.

--------

“There’s been this hatred for a long time,” said Tang Xuejun, a Han resident of Lhasa for the last 10 years. “Sometimes you would even wonder how we had avoided open confrontation for so many years. This is a hatred that cannot be solved by arresting a few people.” Tibetans, meanwhile, complain that they have been relegated to second-class citizenship, that their culture is being destroyed through forced assimilation, that their religious freedoms have been trampled upon.

A Tibetan university student in her early 20s who declined to give her name explained relations this way: “I really don’t want to talk about politics, saying whether or not Tibet is part of China. The reality is that we are controlled by Chinese, by the Han people. We don’t have any say, so in my family we don’t even talk about it.”

-----------

Far from giving up on their way of life, though, or renouncing their attachment to the Dalai Lama, the exiled spiritual leader whom the Chinese government has long vilified as a separatist, or “splittist,” most Tibetans interviewed while dodging heavy police checks during a 450-mile road trip through Tibetan areas in Gansu and Qinghai Provinces professed near-universal devotion to the Dalai Lama, and vowed to continue resisting government attempts to control their faith.

“All Tibetans are the same: 100 percent of us adore the Dalai Lama,” said Suonanrenqing, a 40-year-old resident of a Tibetan village in Jianzha County, in Qinghai Province. Asked about China’s decision to commandeer an ancient Tibetan religious rite and select the Panchen Lama, the second highest figure in Tibetan Buddhism, in 1995, and the implications for how Beijing would manage things after the Dalai Lama, who is 72, dies, Suonanrenqing’s response suggested indefinite tensions between Chinese and Tibetans.

“We’re not sure if it’s true that the Panchen was appointed by the government, but if it is true, we cannot support him,” he said. “We wouldn’t support a Dalai Lama appointed by the government either. These people should be chosen by monasteries.”

[Daniel]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/21/world/asia/21exiles.html?hp

DHARAMSALA, India — “Long live the Dalai Lama!” is the most common cry on the streets here.

A new generation of exiles is growing edgy in Dharamsala.

Even so, the 72-year-old monk’s refusal to call for independence from China more forcefully as it has cracked down on the protests in Tibet has sharpened disagreement with younger and more aggressive Tibetan exiles.

Tenzin Wangdue, who has spent the last 11 days shouting slogans, including some that the Dalai Lama would shun, is typical of the new generation. While not rejecting the Dalai Lama’s authority, he believes Tibetans have to push harder if they are going to get anywhere. “They’re not going to give total independence,” he said of China. “But I think there’s hope they’re going to accept genuine autonomy if we say we want total autonomy.”

Since March 10 the Dalai Lama has stuck to his “middle way” script and appeared remarkably affable, at least publicly, even as China accused him of masterminding the uprising and called him “a devil with a human face.”

He has repeatedly said he advocates only nonviolence, presses not for independence but a “preservation of Tibetan culture,” endorses China’s role as host of the Olympic Games in August and is happy to speak to Chinese authorities, including President Hu Jintao.

“I’m fully committed to eliminate negative feelings among Tibetans and fear, distrust among Chinese,” he said Thursday in his third meeting with reporters this week. Reminded of the latest slurs against him, he leaned back in his chair and howled with laughter. “As a Buddhist monk, whatever they call me, doesn’t matter.”

Yet, a handful of radical Tibetan exile groups have said angrily that the “middle way” has achieved nothing in nearly 30 years. They have called for an Olympic Games boycott, burned Chinese flags and refused to call off a march from here to Lhasa, Tibet’s capital, which he has called impractical in opposing a mighty state intent on using force.

The NYTImes article goes into greater detail that the quote above, but one does get the sense that that youth, like here in American, want more than the generation before it.

The commitment to nonviolence? That seems to be holding, and the using measures like marches and calling for boycotts seem to be aimed to garned media attention- which was used by both Gandhi and King- though the burning of flags doesn't seem nonviolent, does it? Youth today have what Gandhi and King did not have: the internet. Will this help make a difference? Will the news of these events penetrate China, a country that protects its citizens from it's own news?

I'm very curious- and somewhat fearful- as towards what marchers will encounter. I fear that the DD may be correct, but then David did strike down Goliath- which is perhaps not the best metaphor- seeing that killing was involved there.....

Perhaps this is the first step of many. But there is one thing that is certain, events are transpiring before our eyes. Never, since the DD crossed over the mountains, have the Tibetans used such means for their liberation.

[Vanessa White]

As I read the update that you have posted today, Daniel, I am reminded of an excerpt from the animated movie, My Friend Martin, about Martin Luther King, Jr., which I purchased for our daughter several years ago to help her in learning about him and his life. There is a part in it when some of Martin's followers become frustrated, and fed up with the oppression, violence and threats that they have been subjected to, and come to meet with Martin with guns and other weapons; he completely dismisses that as a possible course of action, that violence begets violence. This new generation of Tibetan activists call to mind that scene for me; they are sick and tired of being downtrodden and not listened to, and are ready to see means to the ends that they perceive as more effective than what has been used.

[Daniel]

I believe the Olympic Games have brought matters to a head.

There is so much news on this matter this morning that I can hardly keep up.

During Visit, Pelosi Offers Support to Dalai Lama
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/21/world/asia/21cnd-pelosi.html?hp

Chinese Christians demand end to Tibet repression
http://www.speroforum.com/site/article.asp?id=14826

China Admits to Wounding 4 Tibetan Demonstrators
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/21/world/asia/21tibet.html

Other news sources find this number to be unsubtantiated. It is more likey, as the Tibetans have reported, that more than 80 to 100 people were killed.

And there are letters to the Editor of the Times worth reading.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/21/opinion/l21tibet.html



Repression in Tibet: The World Must Speak Up


Published: March 21, 2008
To the Editor:

Re “China Terrorizes Tibet” (editorial, March 18):

Why isn’t the International Olympic Committee making clear that building stadiums and cleaning up the air — not maltreating people — are the way to prepare for the Olympics?

The Games in China have become a pretext for the arrest and detention of democracy advocates; the intimidation of human rights lawyers; the shunting away from the capital of petitioners from the rural areas; the cracking down on Falun Gong followers; the forcible return of North Korean refugees; and now the terrorizing of Tibet.

While it is true that the Olympics also offer an opportunity to those who would embarrass China, its politicization of an international sports event should be deemed unacceptable.

No government should be allowed to make repression of its population part of its preparations for the Olympics.

Roberta Cohen
Washington, March 18, 2008

•

To the Editor:

Re “Tibetans in India Enraged by Details of Crackdown” (news article, March 18):

The physical and cultural violence that the Chinese government has directed toward the Tibetan people for the past half century is threatening to undermine the nonviolent and compassionate traditions that have been such a vital part of Tibetan Buddhism, and also a rare gift to a world that is so lacking in its practice of these qualities.

But as China retains its unyielding attitude and raises the level of persecution, it pushes some of the young people of Tibet toward a more radical position that could eventually include greater violence. The Dalai Lama’s nonviolent “middle way” offered hope for a workable solution, but that hope seems to be fading.

It is hard to imagine a light at the end of the tunnel for the Tibetan people without a much stronger response from the rest of the world.

Tibet can seem like a remote place, but freedom from fear, and freedom to practice one’s religion, are fundamental human rights that know no borders or geographical distances.

John N. Corbin
Pleasantville, N.Y., March 18, 2008

•

To the Editor:

Re “Tibetans Clash With Chinese Police in Second City” (news article, March 16):

According to the president of the International Olympic Committee, Jacques Rogge, boycotting the Olympics would be “penalizing innocent athletes.” Really? What about innocent Tibetans?

I’ve lived in Lhasa, Tibet, and mainland China, and I know what life is like under a brutally repressive regime.

I remember a teenager who spent three years in a Lhasa prison because, in an angry impulse, he posted a letter denouncing the Communist Party. And a teacher who was arrested for telling his pupils traditional Tibetan stories. I remember constant fear and anxiety.

Politicians claim that economic development is pushing China toward greater freedom and justice. As far as I know, Tibetans have not benefited from China’s economic boom; the Chinese justice system serves the powerful and rich; corruption is rampant, and whoever speaks up is silenced.

Yes, some middle-class Chinese now have the illusion of freedom because they wear Nike sneakers and chat on China’s strictly censored Internet.

The Beijing Olympics aren’t an international celebration of brotherhood and athletics; they are the Communist Party thumbing its nose at anyone who cares about human rights.

If we don’t speak up, we are cowards and accomplices.

Judith Hertog
Hanover, N.H., March 18, 2008

[Vanessa White]

Or, maybe more like a DUH, FINALLY!!! kind of moment.

Maybe it is because Good Friday is typically a very spiritually emotional day for me; maybe it is because my mind and heart opened a bit more to the world. Maybe it was those powerful letters to the Editor that Daniel posted; maybe it is the fact that Nancy Pelosi, whom I greatly admire, is visiting in India and is greeted with smiles and cheers by the Dalai Lama and his followers. This situation IS about us, every one of us. The story is so much the same, yet is appears with so much more at stake. As terrifying as it can be to be LGBT in this country much of the time, it seems less risky to speak out openly than in China about anything that describes something other than what you are told to believe, think, and feel. And it is angering that the world would believe that business as usual with the Olympics is the way to proceed, and allow China to continue to stomp on human rights in this way. I feel so sad for the Tibetan people who may feel so isolated and alone in this fight for freedom of expression, freedom to be.

Does that sound at all familiar to anyone else? :'(:love:

[Daniel]

Does that sound at all familiar to anyone else? :'(:love:

You say it beautifully. What we are facing as gay Americans is NOTHING compared to what the Tibetan people have been facing. And yet they have borne their sorrows with open-heartedness and compassion. I think that is a HUGE lesson for us- I just hope more people are listening to the message.

[Daniel]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/28/world/asia/28tibet.html

SHANGHAI — Weeping and yelling, “Tibet is not free,” a group of red-robed monks on Thursday disrupted a carefully scripted tour for foreign journalists in Lhasa, Tibet’s capital, as Chinese officials tried to portray the recent Tibetan riots as the work of thugs and separatists.

A Tibetan jailed in connection with the recent riots was interviewed by foreign reporters on Thursday at a prison in Lhasa.

The 15-minute protest by about 30 monks, who spoke first in Tibetan and then switched to Mandarin, was in the Jokhang Monastery, one of Tibet’s holiest shrines. The protest, videotaped by reporters, ended after government handlers shouted for the journalists to leave and tried to pull them away, an Associated Press correspondent on the tour said in an interview.

I am glad to see that the media was used by monks to protest nonviolently. That's what King did. That's what works. I just pray that world attention stays focused on this issue.

[Vanessa White]

This was on CNN.com this morning:

"The monks, speaking in Tibetan, claimed government officials were trying to turn Tibetans against them by telling lies. But the monks didn't elaborate on the alleged lies, according to a translation by Tibetan scholars in the U.S who listened to an audiotape of the confrontation made by AP Television News.

"They have destroyed the way we are seen by the people," one monk said. "We are like prisoners here," said another.

As the monks blurted out a stream of complaints, one cried: "The government is always telling lies, it's all lies."

"They killed many people. They killed many people," a monk said.

Later, a monk speaking in Chinese said the death toll was far higher than the government was saying. "The cadres and the army killed more than 100 Tibetans. They arrested more than a thousand."

"Tibetans have no freedom," a monk said after some of them switched to Chinese. "We want the Dalai Lama to come back," said another, adding that they were certain they would be detained when the reporters left.

"They want us to curse the Dalai Lama and that is not right," a monk added.

The government officials then tugged at the journalists to leave and shouted: "Time to go." The monks filed upstairs.

Hours later, the temple and the large square in front that is usually thronged with worshippers were closed again by paramilitary police in helmets and plastic shields.

The three major Buddhist monasteries that ring Lhasa -- Sera, Drepung and Ganden -- and a fourth, Ramoche, where the March 14 rioting started, remain sealed off by police. Investigators were gathering evidence against monks who took part in protests, officials said."

I am moved and humbled by the courage shown by these monks; they know that there are dangers in speaking the truth there, they are shut down at every turn, they remain nonviolent and peaceful. It really brings to light how far I have to go in the journey toward full nonviolence.

I am still learning about this as time goes by, but so far, what I am learning is so disturbing.....:'(:love: I really admire these monks so much, and I guess any side of the struggle could be seen as the one being truthful, but in my heart I believe it is the monks who are speaking truthfully no matter what the consequence.

[Daniel]

I am moved and humbled by the courage shown by these monks; they know that there are dangers in speaking the truth there, they are shut down at every turn, they remain nonviolent and peaceful. It really brings to light how far I have to go in the journey toward full nonviolence.

I am still learning about this as time goes by, but so far, what I am learning is so disturbing.....:'(:love: I really admire these monks so much, and I guess any side of the struggle could be seen as the one being truthful, but in my heart I believe it is the monks who are speaking truthfully no matter what the consequence.

And the Tibetan people (monastics), if anything, have trained themselves to be compassionate, not onlyfor themselves but for their oppressors.

Honestly- and this distresses me very much- I don't see much happening as regards beneficial changes being made by the Chinese government towards the Tibetan people. I fear that economics - and the O games- are precedence.

International pressure is going to have to be intense and unrelenting for that to happen (should be noted that the NYTimes- where a great deal of coverage as appeared- was not invited to this recent press tour.)

China has always- historically speaking- acted with a heavy hand. And we have too- in our own way- remember 'shock and awe'? We are in Iraq for one reason: oil. China wants Tibet for its rich geological minerals: . It contains more than half the world's population- over 2 billion, while India has 1 billion. We're going to have to wake up are realize that it's not about 'us' anymore.

The Tibetans? They are caught in the crosshairs of the economics of the situation.

[刘卓邕]

“It is unfortunate that despite my sincere efforts not to separate Tibet from China, the leaders of the P.R.C. continue to accuse me of being a ‘separatist,’“ the Dalai Lama said, referring to the People’s Republic of China.

Why did Hu Jintao have the protest out of control?So many Hui and Han killed, to show the "Dalai Lama's cruelty"?

The CCP dare not talk with the Dalai Lama,for that will incur attention on the autarchic system!

[Daniel]

“It is unfortunate that despite my sincere efforts not to separate Tibet from China, the leaders of the P.R.C. continue to accuse me of being a ‘separatist,’“ the Dalai Lama said, referring to the People’s Republic of China.

Why did Hu Jintao have the protest out of control?So many Hui and Han killed, to show the "Dalai Lama's cruelty"?

The CCP dare not talk with the Dalai Lama,for that will incur attention on the autarchic system!

Sir- I am not sure I understand you correctly: do you support the Dalai Lama?

[刘卓邕]

...do you support the Dalai Lama?
Not entirely.I like to see talk between the Dalai Lama and the CCP,but love freedom for each indivadual,not based on ethic consideration.

[Daniel]

Not entirely.I like to see talk between the Dalai Lama and the CCP,but love freedom for each indivadual,not based on ethic consideration.

Please speak plainly: I would appreciate candor on your part regarding these matters.

In point of fact- as I see it- the Tibetan people are not free: they are being oppressed as a minority in their own country.

This is not unlike what happened here in the USA in the 19th century. The white man took the land from the Amercian Indian people. It was not right or just. And I do not see that it is right for the Chinese people to do a similiar thing to the Tibetans by virtual of occupation. Nor is it right for the Chinese people to try to control the religious destiny of the Tibetan people anymore that it is right for the USA to control how the American Indian people practice their faith.

Two great wrongs do not make a right!

It is my hope that the great Chinese people not make the same mistakes as American people did in the 19th century.

[Vanessa White]

Daniel, one observation I make of this situation as well, is that I believe that many Chinese citizens believe that the Dalai Lama is stirring the pot and the source of the trouble, out of fear about speaking out against their government, or fear of facing what the facts may possibly be about the source of the conflicts that have occurred. I know, as an American citizen, one that does not feel the need for censorship of my views as exists there, I am at times naive and even in denial about the extent to which our government here may have less than the highest of motives for doing what they do. For citizens there, I imagine it must be fear that is so much more intense, due to the years of oppression and the fear for their physical safety.

For a group of people, like the Tibetans, to want freedom, equality, and to be treated with fairness, ends up appearing as if they are demanding something that is unreasonable, when in fact, it is human.

And the parallel with the American Indians in this country: that is right on. There was a level of trust at times that the Indians tried to have for the US government, and they were exterminated and the their land was taken away. But our government ended up getting their wish, by stealing so much of their lands from them, never giving any back but a bit that if they "keep their place", they don't have to pay taxes. Doesn't matter that many live in desperate poverty and addiction.

So much for human rights. :'(

[Daniel]

The fear that the DL is behind the protests in Tibet is based on- as I see it frankly- projected aggression. If anything, he has endeavored to teach younger (and thus inherently impatient) Tibetans the teachings of nonviolence.

The man has expoused nonviolence as a point of fact since he left Tibet for fear of his own life. He has- for these many years- asked his people to be nonviolent towards the Chinese people.

Has this been reciprocated?

No!

The Chinese built a railroard over the mountains and brought vast numbers of people to the land of the Tibetans. Was this done in peace and love?

I do not think so.

It was not right for the White Man to indocrinate the American Indian. And is it is not right for the Chinese to dominate the Tibetan poeple in their own land. It is the actions of the Chinese people which has now caused unrest and protest.

The DL is a man of peace as was Gandhi and King. And anyone who thinks otherwise, either does not know the man or has an agenda of his own.

[刘卓邕]

And I do not see that it is right for the Chinese people to do a similiar thing to the Tibetans by virtual of occupation...
China today comes from an empire,a political unit having an extensive territory or comprising a number of territories or nations and ruled by a single supreme authority.

Many ethnic groups have blended with each other for a long time.

Romantic nationalism of western nations can apply here?

[Daniel]

China today comes from an empire,a political unit having an extensive territory or comprising a number of territories or nations and ruled by a single supreme authority.

Many ethnic groups have blended with each other for a long time.

Romantic nationalism of western nations can apply here?

Current historical events refutes your postion- and that is not an romanticization on my part.

There has been no blending of Tibetans and the Chinese who have mass immigrated to Tibet. You are wrong sir. Dead wrong. Reports from international press have revealed that the Chinese in Tibet treat Tibetans with distain and the two groups do not association with each other.

How would you like it if I set up camp on your front lawn? Would you consider me your 'friend'. I rather doubt it.

For the Chinese people to virtually take over Tibet by mass immigration is an aggressive act- amounting to an occupation- no matter how you rationalize it. And you are rationalizing it.

I find your reasoning offensive, ignorant and arrogant- and yes- aggressive. And from your post here, I do not know why you are trying to get support for the boycott of the Games on this forum, but it is clear to me (you have not stated otherwise) that you do not support Tibetans.


~

Now here's an interesting developement.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/08/world/europe/08torch.html?hp

Protests at Torch Relay in Paris

”One would almost think oneself in Lhasa,” said Jean-Paul Ribes, leader of the Support Committee of the Tibetan People in France, who was among the thousands massed on the Trocadero square, across the Seine from the Eiffel tower, where the flame began its passage through Paris. “It snowed last night, now the sky is blue — and police are everywhere,” Mr. Ribes said.

As well.....

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/07/world/europe/07torch.html

Protests of China Make Olympic Torch Relay an Obstacle Course

By JOHN F. BURNS
Published: April 7, 2008
LONDON — Shouting “Shame on China!” and waving Tibetan flags, pro-Tibetan demonstrators and others protesting Chinese human rights abuses turned the running of the Olympic torch through the streets here on Sunday into a tumult of scuffles. The police said that one man broke through a tight security cordon and made a failed grab for the torch, and that 35 people were arrested.

-------

One of the protesters who sparred verbally with pro-China groups in Trafalgar Square was David Phillips, a 25-year-old American from Austin, Tex., who said he had worked for six months at the American Embassy in Beijing.

Now working at a travel agency in London, Mr. Phillips said he had witnessed human rights abuses in China. “There are serious human rights violations going on, and you can’t ignore that,” he said. “And this is an appropriate place for us to voice our feelings.”

[Vanessa White]

It is a totally different world, when the Olympic torch is having to fight to stay lit. It is encouraging that so many people, from all over the world, are speaking up about this. I am very interested to see what happens in San Francisco when the torch arrives on Wednesday. I am sure it will not be a quiet arrival by any means....

[TigerXero]

Is that because the issuse of this thread is 'over there' and nothing anyone here- seeminly- can do anything about? 'They' are Buddhist's while most of the participants of this forum - 'us'- are gay Christian and fighting for our own dream in our neck of the woods?


Daniel! *raises hand at identification of being gay and currently studying and showing interest in apply the teachings of Buddhism and Taoism (Zen Buddhism?) to his life* :mad:...;)

AND I'm involved with a group called AWAKE (A Global Movement of Awakening Youth... an outgrowth a the work of her Holiness Sai Maa) who just kicked off their movement yesterday. I'm part of the Nashville group, and we're going to be doing, aside from our own spiritual and mediative growth, community service type work, one of the first things of which we decided would be consciousness raising about the happenings in Tibet in our city.

So, I'm still involved with two groups on campus that do work for the gay community, so... I guess I'm a gay [aspiring] Zen Buddhist who is in the process of working for the gay community and the Tibetans.

As for Tibet, let me post some things that YOU can do right from your computer...

Take Action for Tibet!

Tibet, the rooftop of the world, the home of Chomolungma (Mt. Everest), may soon have its people, their culture and their religion crushed is we do not act now. On our trail to justice in Tibet, every small step is important in reaching the summit. How far you are willing or able to climb is up to you. Here are some suggestions for how you can help:

Easy Climb:

Sign a petition to boycott the Olympic Games unless China changes its policy on Tibet: www.racefortibet.org (http://www.racefortibet.org). Forward it.

Visit Students for a Free Tibet at www.studentsforafreetibet.org (http://www.studentsforafreetibet.org) where you can quickly send form letters to members of Congress and the Olympic Committee to demand the Olympic Torch not pass through Tibet and more.

Put a "Save Tibet" or "Race for Tibet" bumper sticker on your car. This helps put a personal touch on the publicity for Tibet and will continue to help raise the consciousness of people on the Tibetan issue, even if the media attention fades.

Make a friend request to the Myspace profile "One Human Race ~ Justice" www.myspace.com/onehumanracejustice (http://www.myspace.com/onehumanracejustice) and read and forward bulletins with information on current developments and action steps.

Make a smal donation of $10 to Giving Justice, a local project helping Tibetan rejugees in India. 100% of donations go directly to the people who need it, and no adminitative fees are deducted. Contact Ngawang Losel, (615) 478-5090 or ngawangser@yahoo.com

March 31 is Global Day of Action for Tibet. Visit the link for action steps: www.tibetnetwork.org/march31 (http://www.tibetnetwork.org/march31)

Moderate Climb:

Join and become an active memeber of International Campaign for Tibet and forward e-mails to your contacts to urge them to become involved in action steps such as signing petitions, etc. Individual membership is $35. www.savetibet.org (http://www.savetibet.org)

Write a short, informed personal letter to your representatives in D.C. urging them to call for China to use restraint in its dealing with Tibet and to open a dialogue with His Holiness the Dalai Lama. Demand that people are no longer imprisoned for possessing a photo of the Dalai Lama or the Tibetan flag, for singing Tibetan freedom songs, or shouting "Free Tibet." Write to President Bush as well. For Congressional contact information: www.visi.com/juan/congress (http://www.visi.com/juan/congress)

Sponsor a child at a Tibetan Refugee School through Tibetan Children's Villages for $30 a month. You can also make a one-time donation for much-needed supplies or send warm clothing for children and adults. www.tcv.org.in/home.shtml (http://www.tcv.org.in/home.shtml)

Read, read, read about Tibet and the current situation. Be able to speak about it in an informed, reasonale but passionate manner to people. Open a formal discsion about Tibet with groups in which you are involved.

Strenuous Climb:

Write Op Ed letters to local, reional, national and international press to continue to keep this issue in the public eye and to voice your personal opinion on China's actions in Tibet.

Devote your time, talents, and energy to activist organizations such as One Human Race ~ Justice, International Campaign for Tibet, Students For a Free Tibet or others.

Set up a Tibet information table at public events. Order or create and distribute materials such as brochures, bumper stickers, etc. to help educate people and further their interest and action on the Tibetan situation.

Loop Trail - - Gobal Human Rights:

Amnesty International: www.amnesty.org (http://www.amnesty.org)
Action for Human Rights. Hope for Humanity.
Nashville local chapter's blog: http://aiusa149.blogspot.com

Human Rights Watch: www.hrw.org (http://www.hrw.org)
Defending Human Rights Worldwide

Talking points about Tibet:

The situation in Tibet is urgent. Although a small group of government-escorted journalists were allowed in Lhasa in the last few days, all other journalists and tourtists have been expelled from Tibet, thousands of Chinese troops have been sent in, and communication lines cut. Chinese reports on casualities and arrests are suspect. On Thursday, monks in Jokhang Temple forced through security lines to tell journalists: "The cadres and the army killed more than 100 Tibetans. They arrested more than a thousand." They cried, "Tibetans have no freedom," and "Tibet is not Free, Tibet is not Free!" They shared this information at serious risk to their lives, and now there are fears for their welfare and their whereabouts.

Tibetans are not allowed to speak or worship freely. Monks, nuns and school children are routinely forced to publicly denounce their exiled spiritual leader, His Holiness the Dalai Lama. His photo, as well as the Tibetan flad, are illegal in Tibet and possessing oneocan lead to imprisonment and even torture.

Tibetan prisoners of conscience (those imprisoned merely for their beliefs) face brutal torture. Many monks and nuns have endured more than a decade in prison merely for holding fast to their religious beliefs and refusing to denounce His Holiness. Documented frequently-used techniques include electric cattle prods to mouths and genitals, starvation, sleep deprivation, solutary confinement, aerial suspension and beating with metal rods. In additional, Tibetan women are routinely forced to undergo sterilization procedures (as are some women in China).

Beijing's hosting of the Olympic Games is recognized as the most global opportunity for addressing the long-standing oppression of Tibetans by the Chinese government. The protests on and around March 10, 2008 have been the largest scale since the Tibetan Uprising Day in 1959.

Tibet was a distinct nation for hundreds of years prior to the Chinese invasion in 1950. It had its own unique culture, language and religion, and its political leaders signed treaties with other nations. Due to a government policy encouraging migration to Tibet, Han Chinese now outnumber Tibetans in many areas. Tibetans are often treated as second-class citizens in their own land.

And YES... I did type all that. *fingers die*

[Daniel]

Well.....Otter- Zero....what a take charge post! Wow! When I read it, the first thing that popped into my head was the phrase from the old standard by Gershwin: "Who could ask for anything more?"

You've done yeoman's duty in gathering and posting all this information and stuff to 'do'. Really stuff.

Thank you so much for your effort and commitment- and inspiration! And I encourage members here to take the climb in effecting change for the Tibetan people- who are in sore need of help.

~

I've been blessed to sit with the DL three time: the first time at a sunrise meditation in Central Park- where I sat not more than 50 feet from him. He rubbed his eyes like a kid at the end and waved and laughed as he always does- a laugh of joy and warmth.

Second time during a series of teaching, and then the third time- again in Central Park. Each time, I have been struck by the man's compassion and warmth.

Namaste!

Daniel

[刘卓邕]

...Reports from international press have revealed that the Chinese in Tibet treat Tibetans with distain and the two groups do not associate with each other
If you visit Tibet,Yunnan,Sichuang and Qinghai,you can see Tibetans are very identical with Mongolians,Manchurians...and with "Han"s.

"Han"s are hybrids of peoples that have existed in China,indeed!


Five shop girls were burnt to death in the Lhasa "riot",but by Hu Jintao I think.
http://ycwb.com/images/2008-03/22/kxwlzj83751.jpg

[Daniel]

If you visit Tibet,Yunnan,Sichuang and Qinghai,you can see Tibetans are identical with Mongolians,Manchurians...and with "Han"s.


And what is this statment supposed to prove, that discrimination, because ethnicity's are related, is Ok? You sir, are barking up the wrong tree!

"Han"s are hybrids of peoples that have existed in China,indeed!

The distinctions you are drawing do no in any way deal with the actual issues at hand- and I hardly understand your purpose for posting here sir.


Five shop girls were burnt to death in the Lhasa "riot",but by Hu Jintao I think.
http://ycwb.com/images/2008-03/22/kxwlzj83751.jpg


I am very sorry to hear of these deaths. And I am very sorry that the Chinese people have oppressed the Tibetan people for more than 30 years. This is a fact that is not defensible.

[刘卓邕]

And what is this statment supposed to prove, that discrimination, because ethnicity's are related, is Ok? ...
I meant that there is no such an estrangement or discrimination between Tibetans and other people in China, as you imagine.

[Daniel]

I meant that there is no such an estrangement or discrimination between Tibetans and other people in China, as you imagine.

I am not imagining: I can read. And I have been reading and keeping up with this issue for a very long time. You sir- seem to have an agenda which is not in keeping with this forum. One which I do not appreciate. You sir- seem to be interested in propaganda.

Let's take this three simple facts if you please: if the Tibetan's and the Chinese people get along so well, why did the Dalai Lama have to flee his own country 30 some years ago and had never been allowed to return? Way are those who possess pictures of the man thrown in jail? Why have the Chinese people installed a Panchen Lama of their own, one which the Tibtetans will not accept?

To those who have eyes and ears- it seems that the Chinese people are intent on hijacking the internal workings of the Buddhist faith at it's very scource. That sir- is an aggressive stance which is not in keeping with the aims of this forum.

Are these sir, the actions of a people which get along very well with each other?

No! They are not!

You sir- are either grossly misinformed or have an agenda which is propagandistic. If the latter is the case, your presence on this forum is not welcome.

[刘卓邕]

if the Tibetan's and the Chinese people get along so well, why did the Dalai Lama have to flee his own country 30 some years ago and had never been allowed to return? Way are those who possess pictures of the man thrown in jail? Why have the Chinese people installed a Panchen Lama of their own, one which the Tibtetans will not accept? ...
Although the the Chinese people dont't agree with you either of course,you mix up the CCP and the Chinese people.George W. Bush is USA?

[Daniel]

Although the the Chinese people dont't agree with you either of course,you mix up the CCP and the Chinese people.George W. Bush is USA?

I'm not the one who is mixed up.

George Bush is no more the USA than you are the Emperor of China.

I will not be reading any more of your posts seeing that I take your presence on this forum as propaganda.

As far as I can see, you are here for reasons which are unexplained and have NOTHING to do with the message and aims of Soulforce.

So - I wish you all the best in you journey in life. And hope that you find the peace which you deny the Tibetan people. They, at least, understand the meaning of compassion. While you- sir- seem to only understand the need for power.

[Gregory_de_Bois]

Just wanted to say that I went to a Tibet/Darfur rally on Sunday. It was lovely to hear the various speakers from both countries.

[刘卓邕]

It was lovely to hear the various speakers ...
The CCP's China is not the peoples's.
Hu Jintao is the enemy of the nation.
http://a123.g.akamai.net/f/123/12465/1d/media.canada.com/reuters/olusworld_iptc/2008-03-31t060148z_01_nootr_rtridsp_2_international-china-tibet-dc.jpg?size=l

Dalai Lama: Tibet Wants Autonomy, Not Independence (http://www.dalailama.com/news.42.htm)

[Daniel]

You know the gig is up when artists and such start getting arrested. And for what? Simply being a person of note a Tibetan.

Sounds like paranioa to me...

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/18/world/asia/18tibet.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin


By ANDREW JACOBS
Published: April 18, 2008
BEIJING — The Chinese authorities have detained a high-profile Tibetan television reporter who is also a popular singer, suggesting that the government crackdown following the disturbances in and around Tibet has yet to run its course.

I don't think the 'crackdown' has even reached it's peak yet.

[Gregory_de_Bois]

The CCP's China is not the peoples's.
Hu Jintao is the enemy of the nation.
http://a123.g.akamai.net/f/123/12465/1d/media.canada.com/reuters/olusworld_iptc/2008-03-31t060148z_01_nootr_rtridsp_2_international-china-tibet-dc.jpg?size=l

Dalai Lama: Tibet Wants Autonomy, Not Independence (http://www.dalailama.com/news.42.htm)

Pardon, but what are you trying to say? If you oppose the Olympics, why are you arguing against us here? We are trying to be advocates for the Tibetan people, and you, well I don't know what you are trying to say.

[Daniel]

Pardon, but what are you trying to say? If you oppose the Olympics, why are you arguing against us here? We are trying to be advocates for the Tibetan people, and you, well I don't know what you are trying to say.

I can't figure it out either. The person posting gives me the impression that we are dealing with someone who is seeking political power within China- and his reasons for boycotting the Olympics has NOTHING to do with human rights and the Tibetan people.

As such, his presence here is adversarial. And NOT appreciated. Though may God bless his soul.

[Gregory_de_Bois]

I can't figure it out either. The person posting gives me the impression that we are dealing with someone who is seeking political power within China- and his reasons for boycotting the Olympics has NOTHING to do with human rights and the Tibetan people.

As such, his presence here is adversarial. And NOT appreciated. Though may God bless his soul.

That makes sense. Well, I wish him Godspeed, and may the Lord show him that all humans deserve to be treated with respect and dignity.

[Daniel]

There is so much happening with regards to news, China and Tibet, that is has been difficult keeping up with the latest developments.

Here is a great resource at the NYTYimes:

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/china/tibet/index.html?8qa&scp=1-spot&sq=tibet&st=nyt

Recently 30 Tibetans were sentenced to prison, some for life, because of protests and riots in the past few weeks. In addition, it seems as though the Chinese goverment is doing all it can to quell anti-Olympic sentiment in whatever way they can, even if it means draconian measures. Saying they want to meet with the DL- one wonders if this is actual 'talk' or 'spin'.

No one really knows how many Tibetans have been detained since protesting started, but sources estimate that over 4000 people are being held.

[Vanessa White]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/may/02/tibet.china

I heard a blurb on NPR yesterday, that the Chinese government released a statement that one Tibetan demonstrator had been killed amidst the uprising. If there are indeed, 4000 Tibetans/demonstrators being held, Daniel, where do they hold them there? Do they have prisons or are they interred somehow?

I hope that the envoy talks help, but it seems orchestrated due the the Olympics, as seems to be the sentiment all around.....

[Daniel]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/may/02/tibet.china

I heard a blurb on NPR yesterday, that the Chinese government released a statement that one Tibetan demonstrator had been killed amidst the uprising. If there are indeed, 4000 Tibetans/demonstrators being held, Daniel, where do they hold them there? Do they have prisons or are they interred somehow?

I hope that the envoy talks help, but it seems orchestrated due the the Olympics, as seems to be the sentiment all around.....

I wish I knew the answer to your question, but it seems to be hard to obtain news from the area. And while the Chinese say they want 'talks', they continue to insist that the DL is behind these protests and demonstrations. This assertion, if anything, reveal an ignorance of Buddhism and nonviolence, as well as what is know as projection: my view is that the Chinese are aggessive in their stance, and, in fact, are orchestrating the demise of the Tibetan people.

[Vanessa White]

I really believe that as well. They release bits and pieces of news to try to appear "balanced", but it is far from it, in my opinion as well. I also find it so interesting about how the news of China wanting talks with Tibetans focusing in many realms, on their desire to speak with DL; he has been very clear that he is in favor of the Olympics going forward, and that he is not orchestrating all of what is going on.

It is frightening to me what propaganda can do to a people, a nation. So many people have full belief of what China is saying and doing.

[Vanessa White]

You can read about it here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/04/world/asia/04tibet.html