Hi, I'm struggling with Christianity and homosexuality [Archive]

capeguy74

04-01-2008, 09:30 PM

scott snedeker

04-01-2008, 10:09 PM

First of all God Loves you because of your capacity for intimacy with you own gender. Love is awareness of the life energy of God

He has created you with this attraction because there is another fella who is also gay that he created who needs you. Your attraction to men is how you are going to find him, and how he will find you.

And when you find each other and make love, God will smile. Like a parent when he watches his child open a present on Christmas day.

As far as how others misinterpret or mistranslate Christ's message of unconditional love either today and over millenia, I care not to give any validity or attention to it. Focus on you entitlement to passionately love in tune with your true nature as defined by your desire. His design for you is honored when you realize this entitlement is a given. A given!!!

That he does not create second class humans who are prohibited from expressing intimacy with their desired mate. No more than the 19th century beliief that africans did not have souls.

You have come to the right place, my brother. Here is where I'm sure you can find many answers. Let go of fear. Let go of the false message that God Judges you. Let go of self jugdement. And embrace the love of self secure in the knowlege that God loves you uncondtionally. That means you are completely lovable without changing anything! He has many joys planned for you. All you have to do is let go of fear to let them in.

Gregory_de_Bois

04-01-2008, 11:07 PM

Hello everyone,

I stumbled on this web site as I was engaging in yet another evening of soul-searching and agonizing over my long, 10-year struggle to reconcile my Christian faith and my homosexual feelings.

My understanding of the Bible, as I learned it in what was then known as the International Churches of Christ, is that God frowns upon, despises, hates homosexuality. Based on that belief, I have spent years getting counseling, taking psychiatric medication, attending ex-gay ministries, all in the hopes that one day I would change. I did change, but not in the way all of these actions would lead you to believe. Instead, after years of celibacy and quietly struggling with same-sex attraction, I acted on my feelings by getting with another man in the fall of 2006.

Since then, my life has been a constant struggle. I have many times wanted to kill myself and even formulated plans and started to act on them, only to fear that I would fail. I have hated myself for years and believed God hated me, too.

This leads me to why I am here now. I feel like perhaps there might be some hope after all of reconciling my faith in God and my homosexual feelings. Could it be possible that God loves me, in spite of my orientation? If so, what biblical passages prove that? And what about those biblical passages, especially those in the New Testament, that seem so clearly to condemn homosexuality?

I am very open to input. I plan to check back here often, and I hope to find some peace that has eluded me for so many years.

Thank you very much in advance.

Friend, welcome. There are tons of resources on this website, and all over the web. There are plenty of books that are extremely helpful. Inclusive Orthodoxy (http://www.truthsetsfree.net/index.htm) has a link to books about the issue. And I cannot (re)emphasize enough the importance of knowing (and accepting) God's unconditional love for you. He knit you in your mother's womb, and there is nothing wrong with you. I am sure that others will be much better spoken and more helpful.

Namaste,

Greg

Daniel

04-02-2008, 12:16 AM

The struggle you bring with your hear makes me heart ache. I remember when I felt as you do, but that was many years ago.

Yes- it is possible to reconcile your faith with your sexuality. You are among friends here and many of us have stuggled with the same, if not, identical feelings. So- you are not alone.

There was one rescource that helped me greatly, and that was the scholarship of John Boswell.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/index-bos.html

His book, Christianity, Social Tolerance and Homosexuality, (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1980), affected me deeply when I read it in the mid 1980's. It was highly controversal at the time. No one had done the kind of scholarship he was doing. His work got religiously minded gay people to think differently about themselves. Why? Because he showed how intolerance has everything to do with ignorance of scripture, its context and intention.

Yes- it is something of an academic book, but the message is clear if one take the time to read it: the church was not always so hateful to gay persons. In fact, before the 14th century (if memory serves), it wasn't an issue as it is today: monks made commitments to each other, which, ceremonially speaking, are the the model for marriage as we understand it today.

The thing that I had to wrap my head around was this: I knew my feeling about guys were not going to change. So I had to change my thinking. And that took a lot of information gathering on my part. Questioning and doubting what others told me I should believe and feel. And in the end, after I did my research, I found out that the only thing that made a real difference was finding my connection to the divine- and learn to listen to that- and only that.

I think you will find, when your mind is quiet and still- and you sense your very being- that being gay is not a horrible thing, and is, in fact, a blessing.

But it takes time to learn to get quiet. And I don't mean just sitting quietly, but really going deeply into contemplation (or meditation if you will).

Learning how to do this will help you a great deal on your journey to self-acceptance.

So read. Keep a journal if that interests you. Make time to meditate, to breath, to consciously relax.

And at rock bottom, you may find that the more important matter is not whether God loves you, but rather, whether you love yourself. Because He already does. ;)

Zerbie

04-02-2008, 12:48 AM

Hello everyone,

I stumbled on this web site as I was engaging in yet another evening of soul-searching and agonizing over my long, 10-year struggle to reconcile my Christian faith and my homosexual feelings.

My understanding of the Bible, as I learned it in what was then known as the International Churches of Christ, is that God frowns upon, despises, hates homosexuality. Based on that belief, I have spent years getting counseling, taking psychiatric medication, attending ex-gay ministries, all in the hopes that one day I would change. I did change, but not in the way all of these actions would lead you to believe. Instead, after years of celibacy and quietly struggling with same-sex attraction, I acted on my feelings by getting with another man in the fall of 2006.

Since then, my life has been a constant struggle. I have many times wanted to kill myself and even formulated plans and started to act on them, only to fear that I would fail. I have hated myself for years and believed God hated me, too.

This leads me to why I am here now. I feel like perhaps there might be some hope after all of reconciling my faith in God and my homosexual feelings. Could it be possible that God loves me, in spite of my orientation? If so, what biblical passages prove that? And what about those biblical passages, especially those in the New Testament, that seem so clearly to condemn homosexuality?

I am very open to input. I plan to check back here often, and I hope to find some peace that has eluded me for so many years.

Thank you very much in advance.

Dearest Cape Guy, :love:

Please, do NOT hurt yourself! :pray::pray:

Your message hurts to read, yet I am So Glad you posted here. :'(:love:
Here, you will find friends who will welcome you with open arms. Many regulars here are both Christian and gay, and some of us are only one or the other, or neither.

God loves you. God knew you would be attracted to men. He knew how you would feel and probably knew what you would do before you yourself knew. And he made you. :love: He made you because He - knowing full well that you would desire and love other men - wanted you.

The others will share scriptures that speak to them. I am not much of a Bible reader.

For me, the fact that God loved you enough to make you and to continue breathing life into you every moment is enough. I am sure, from the bottom of my soul, that God loves you exactly as you are and nothing you can do will ever erase that love.

I hope you will come back and stick around here some more. Many of us find this community inspiring. We are more than happy to be here for you as a sounding board while you bounce questions around.

You are safe here. You are loved and wanted.
:love:

capeguy74

04-02-2008, 12:55 AM

Zerbie

04-02-2008, 01:34 AM

Hello again everyone,

I am so thankful for the responses you all have posted so far. Please keep them coming.

I am beginning to believe that perhaps God sent me to this forum to show me the true extent of His love for me, so that I can stop hating myself and start truly accepting His love.

love,
Jason

Dear Jason,
:love:

It missed my attention before that you mentioned hating yourself.:( Dear, dear Jason: you must not hate yourself. Every individual spirit is strong, and we can do ourselves great harm by self hate. Practice respect for yourself, and keeping yourself in high regard. When it seems difficult, look around you at the evidence that God loves you. Like that last breath that came into your lungs: proof positive that the power upholding the universe *wants* you in it.

Several of the guys here have been in a place similar to where you are now, and they are great resources for personal experience. Daniel really hits the nail on the head when he points you inward towards your inner knowing. Contemplation and meditation is when we start becoming receptive to the messages God wants us to hear. All this noisy stuff: conversations, arguments about politics and theology, personal anecdote, it can be useful in gaining perspective, but it can also get complicated and distract us from hearing the message God is delivering to us in silence.

Get quiet and pray, then just listen to the silence and let knowledge come to you. Know that you are safe. Trust that it is easy to approach God and that He welcomes you with loving arms.

Let us know if/how we can help uphold you along the journey.
:love::pray:

capeguy74

04-02-2008, 04:28 AM

Pablo Rafael

04-02-2008, 07:10 AM

This leads me to why I am here now. I feel like perhaps there might be some hope after all of reconciling my faith in God and my homosexual feelings. Could it be possible that God loves me, in spite of my orientation? If so, what biblical passages prove that? And what about those biblical passages, especially those in the New Testament, that seem so clearly to condemn homosexuality?

Jason,

Glad to have you with us here on the forums.

I am living proof that Christianity and homosexuality can exist together quite happily. I lived for years with the same idea that the Bible speaks against homosexuality. But I a firmly convinced that it does not. There are just a few Bible verses that speak of the issue. The old Testament passages often quoted don't apply or speak to the issue at all. There are only a few references in the New Testament and none of those condemn loving committed relationships. People who are convinced that we are evil and being gay is wrong can interpret a few verses in an anti-gay manner, but an honest look at those few verses doesn't support the anti-gay platform at all.

I firmly believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God. I believe all of it and believe it speaks to us today. And I also believe it isn't at all anti-gay. The homophobic attitude much of Christianity has comes from years of prejudice and homophibic tradition.

I can say with certainty that God loves you. If you are like me, you need to be willing to cast aside that self-hating attitude and accept yourself as the gay man that God created you to be. It is an amazing liberation to realize that being gay and Christian is beautiful combination.

The best book I have read on the issue is The Children Are Free. It often seems that all of Christianity is anti-gay, but is important to realize that a large segment of Christianity doesn't subscribe to this belief. Somehow the homophobic segment of Christianity seems to be the loudest. Many people from all denominations believe that God loves us all gay and straight alike.

But I am getting a little over-wordy here for an introductory post. (It's a teacher thing; we teachers like to hear ourselves talk.)

Tu Amigo, Pablo

keltic63

04-02-2008, 08:07 AM

Jason,

Welcome to the forums. It is time to start loving yourself for who you are, after all, God loves you for the same reasons!

Pablo, Yes! yes! yes! The Children Are Free is a great book for grasping the scriptures that talk about same-sex activity, and de-bunking the traditional interpretations. It goes on to find affirmation in the scriptures! it really helped me.

Jason, about 9 mos after I came out, I took my kids to the beach for a few days. On the last morning, I got up early, walked the beach at sunrise and prayed. I asked God why I was receiving these blessings; this had been the best, most successful vacation I had ever been on. I very clearly heard God answer: You are finally being the person I made you to be. This is what you can expect from now on. And you know what? It is what I have been receiving since then. There are some negative things that may come my way, but I have the tools to deal with them, and the blessings far outweigh the burdens. I've found so much love that it just seems to overflow. You can too!

paul

04-02-2008, 08:16 AM

Welcome.

Your story makes me tear up, and if I "being evil" can have such a response, how much more a God who is "love?" I could have written your story, as could many here, you are not alone.

If you believe in a God who would not give you a rock or a snake when you are pleading for bread to sustain you, then death is the last thing that you want.

I suspect that you have tried endlessly to access God regarding your orientation. Consider that your prayers have gone 'unanswered' because you "pray amiss." If you have prayed continuosly for God to change you, and God has not done that, perhaps you are praying the wrong thing? Kind of like a white person praying to be black. Perhaps the reason that God hasn't helped you change your orientation is simply because God doesn't want you to change.

For me, it all came down to God vs. my beliefs about God. Which do we choose? "If God be for you, who can be against you?" ( "who" includes your self).

Dear Jason, your struggle isn't with God. Your struggle is with your beliefs about God. Your being gay is a gift, if for no other reason than it puts you in a position to consider, question things most people take for granted (you know, like the earth is flat, and the sun revolves around the earth :lol:). We are the new heretics. Take heart, "God" does not want you dead and God does not want you to hate some who God loves (you).

antiochian

04-02-2008, 06:25 PM

Jason, I know your pain all too well. I'm not at a point where I accept myself 100%, it's a goal I'm working towards. I think the Church perhaps at times knowingly but often unknowingly and unitentionally is doing great harm to people by what it, with few execeptions, teaches about lesbian, gay, bisexual and trans people. I've seen great evil in the Church. And it breaks my heart.

A "Christianity" that teaches hatred, condemnation, and oppression is nothing less than a bastardization, if I may be so bold, of true Christianity.

I was once a very zealous Christian, even went through fundamentalist phases. Although my name is still on the membership roll of a parish, I do not participate much and I question, I question.

I don't have the answers that you may be looking for. My journey is ongoing as is yours. I know some of the Bible, and from time to time I'll open up and read (especially the Psalms, which are so beautiful, philosophical and poetic), but I'm no scripture expert.

Know that you are loved by your creator. You do not have to live a lie to obtain your maker's approval. There are many today who claim to speak for God, but they are not God.

I know about self-hatred, I even know about that terrible feeling that life is crap and it's not worth living. But I'm here, alive and breathing today. And you're here. And it's for a reason. And we don't have to figure it out overnight.

Chin up, dear boy. One of the beauties of being part of the gay, lesbian, etc. community is that when you can't walk on your own, there are people who will carry you a few miles. Perhaps one day you will be able to return the favor.

All this messed up gay dude can tell you is, to love yourself. It's hard. It hurts. People can be hurtful. But people are not our judge. Love yourself, be gentle on yourself, and take care of yourself.

Gennee

04-02-2008, 10:01 PM

Welcome to Soulforce, Jason. I'm so happy you found the site. God loves you unconditionally. I reconciled my faith with my being transgendered and I haven't looked back. I consider being transgender a blessing because there are other transgender people who need to know that God loves them and accepts them. God loves people who are gay,lesbian, bisexual, queer and other sexual and gender variant people.
Gennee

:wave::rainbow::love:

Zerbie

04-02-2008, 10:59 PM

Zerbie,

Thank you for those kind words. They mean a lot to me. :love:

For the first time in a while, I actually allowed myself to pray :pray: before I fell asleep, even though I had just spent much of this evening openly exploring my orientation. (Usually, I only went to God in prayer if I felt I was ready to renounce my "gay" side. If I wasn't, I fled from God, feeling He would not want to have anything to do with me. :'( )

I felt such a peace afterward and quickly fell asleep, even though sleep is something that has been hard to come by (at least at night) for me lately. Now I am still wrestling with this, but I feel that, at last, God has led me to a community that can help me.

Sincerely,
Jason

I am so glad that you were able to drift into sleep. And so glad that you ceased being afraid to pray. Jason. :love: It is okay to have questions and to explore them. You have done *nothing* wrong by asking questions and exploring a neglected part of your heart and psyche. In fact, it is far healthier that we do explore ourselves, rather than wall things off.

I am thankful that you had some hours of peace, and I pray that peace will continue for you. You are infinitely loved. God loves you absolutely without condition. You do not have to be 'right' for God to love you. Neither do you have to perform. You are His baby. He *wants* to enfold you in His arms and rock you into that peaceful sleep, keeping you right there, safe in His own heart. :dove:

How are you today? Keep in touch with us whenever you want. Your words have moved us - so many here can relate to what you are going through. We know, can remember, or can imagine the kind of pain and anxiety you feel, and we hope that our words can ease the experience somewhat and help you keep up the courage to face these scary questions.
:pray:

Live well, sleep restfully. You are loved and wanted. :love:
:dove:

capeguy74

04-02-2008, 11:40 PM

Thank you all, again, so much for your very encouraging words. It is such a refreshing change to be part of a community, even if only online at this point, that accepts all of me, Christian faith, gay orientation, and doesn't reject any of it. You all are an incredible blessing, encouragement and joy to me. I have not known peace or happiness that I have felt today since, well, I don't know when.

I believe God has placed me here at this time because I was finally ready to have my eyes opened to a wider vision of His love than I had previously known. Of course, this means I am more than likely going to lose some very good friends I have made over my years of being part of the Church of Christ. But God is my most important friend, and He will provide me with more than I can imagine if I just stick with Him.

Thank you, thank you, thank you! I hope to be able to return the favor some day to someone else who comes along in my position. Keep on smiling, being encouraging, and being spiritual. God loves all of you, He loves me, and I love you. :)

Blessings,
Jason

Daniel

04-03-2008, 08:39 AM

Jason, I know your pain all too well. I'm not at a point where I accept myself 100%, it's a goal I'm working towards.

100 percent?

My sense is that we are only were we are at at any given time and place. Being is a heck of a lot more important than arriving. That said- what I hear in your words is that you want to feel more comfortable in your own gay skin. Well....that can take a while. Heck....I know straight people who don't feel so comfortable in their skin. Perhaps we're all in this boat called life together, paddling along in our particular direction.

I like to think that there is no place to go- which may seem counterintuitive, but this is what I have experienced over the many years that I've gone from being a closeted gay man to being open. There is just the journey. And depending on the place and time (not holding hands with bf in downtown Peoria let say), one is out n certain places that one cannot be in others. But as I write- this is changing- and changing fast!

Ideally, we can 'arrive' at being who we are all the time everwhere. But that outer reality is entirely different than the inner one. I think that's what you're talking about, yes?

For the first time in a while, I actually allowed myself to pray :pray: before I fell asleep, even though I had just spent much of this evening openly exploring my orientation. (Usually, I only went to God in prayer if I felt I was ready to renounce my "gay" side. If I wasn't, I fled from God, feeling He would not want to have anything to do with me. :'( )

I felt such a peace afterward and quickly fell asleep, even though sleep is something that has been hard to come by (at least at night) for me lately. Now I am still wrestling with this, but I feel that, at last, God has led me to a community that can help me.

If you keep asking the Father for something- annoying him as it were- he's not going to pay much attention to you. "Daddy Daddy Daddy.....please please please take the gay away!"

Is that a conversation? A dialogue? Is listening involved? Can he speak to you over the din of your own cries? And can you hear that still small voice?

Sounds like you've gone from petitioning mentality to one of openess and receptivity.

Only good can follow.

:love:

Vanessa White

04-03-2008, 09:40 AM

You have already been greeted and supported by so many of my wonderful friends here; and, in cyberspace or not, we consider each other to be friends, even family here. This is a safe, loving place, for exploring, asking questions, and evolving. I think Daniel is absolutely right; in many ways, we humans are all in the same boat- trying to figure things out, not really ever getting there completely, it is the journey that is important, and to look upon ourselves as lovingly as possible. That can take time, but is so worth it. It is like the world just opens up before us....:love:

This statement that you made speaks volumes:

"I believe God has placed me here at this time because I was finally ready to have my eyes opened to a wider vision of His love than I had previously known."

You would not have come to here had it not been for when you were prepared to hear the words, and truly believe.

I love God, and his presence in my life. And, I know fully how much he truly loves me. It is bliss. :love::pray:

jsteel

04-03-2008, 11:05 AM

keltic63

04-03-2008, 11:11 AM

andrewlittle

04-03-2008, 11:25 AM

Hello,

I hate to give you the bad news but no

God said:
Now, there's a nice non-arrogant way to enter a conversation. "God said" - is that right? God speaks English, so all those pesky old languages - the ones that don't say what you quoted - can just be ignored, so you can claim to be THE ONE who knows what God said.

Romans 1:26-27: "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence [sic] of their error which was meet."

There is only one way to salvation and it's a narrow way.

If you give up you sin and repent god will except you

So, tell me, jsteel - you seem to have a hard-on for LGBT folks. Using your translation above, and considering that lust is not limited to sexual desire, is not your fascination with people whose sexuality is different than your own "burning in your lust?" Does your prurient interest in the lives of others stem from an unanswered, unacknowledged lust that drives you, out of inward shame, to take out your puritanical spleen on people who are different than you? Doesn' that strike you as unseemly and, if so, what will be your recompense?

You are the one who strikes me as having vile affections, especially when you read your little mis-translation in context.

antiochian

04-03-2008, 11:37 AM

100 percent?

My sense is that we are only were we are at at any given time and place. Being is a heck of a lot more important than arriving. That said- what I hear in your words is that you want to feel more comfortable in your own gay skin. Well....that can take a while. Heck....I know straight people who don't feel so comfortable in their skin. Perhaps we're all in this boat called life together, paddling along in our particular direction.

I like to think that there is no place to go- which may seem counterintuitive, but this is what I have experienced over the many years that I've gone from being a closeted gay man to being open. There is just the journey. And depending on the place and time (not holding hands with bf in downtown Peoria let say), one is out n certain places that one cannot be in others. But as I write- this is changing- and changing fast!

Ideally, we can 'arrive' at being who we are all the time everwhere. But that outer reality is entirely different than the inner one. I think that's what you're talking about, yes?
:

Right, the outer and inner realities don't always match. Thank you for your insights, what have gotten me thinking...

Vanessa White

04-03-2008, 11:45 AM

You have really started to open up your heart to your self, and God truly does love you; please remember that when you encounter detractors and those that want to have you doubt who you are in God's eyes. Have faith and lean on us..... YOU ARE SAFE HERE..... :love::love::love:

paul

04-03-2008, 11:49 AM

ooops.

Toto, I don't think we're in Kansas anymore. I'm guessing you didn't notice this is a TGLB site? You might want to stick around and read a bit before you comment again.

BTW, Andrewlittle, who graciously took the time to respond to you, is a bonified minister. He has knowledge of the original languages that the bible was written in, so, heads up...there are intelligent people around here who will challenge you when you venture to speak for "God."

If you are still reading this, try and re-read capeguys posts with your heart and you might notice a human being being vulnerable, honest. Your flippant attitude towards him was obnoxious. Are you really so arrogant that you assume that Capeguy is not familiar with Romans?? Again, re-read his post. He has "struggled for 10 years." Gee, if only you had come into his life ten years ago, you could have saved him so much turmoil.

Zerbie

04-03-2008, 12:09 PM

People can be amazingly callous and cruel. Some of them are either unable or unwilling to see an entire context, emotional and historical, that is right in front of them, and they'll make flippant remarks as if facing such a challenge were truly so easy. Such people are ignorant. Some of them even have a sense for who is in a crisis and will gravitate towards that person to sway them with doubts and fears.

That is why it is far more important to listen to the silent love of God than to anyone else's words.

If you rely on words from others, you will always be batted between what Zerbie and Daniel and Vanessa just wrote, versus what So N So just wrote. You are correct that God is your most important friend. He is one who will NEVER leave you. Trust that it is easy to approach Him and climb right onto his lap. Let Him in his holy silence answer - or perhaps even completely DIVERT - your anxious questions. Out here, we just make a lot of noise. Put your fears, doubts, desires, and questions at God's feet. He will sort through them and you will begin to know you are absolutely cherished. Beautiful. Then your life will follow what you will then truly *know.*

scott snedeker

04-03-2008, 12:49 PM

I have requested that Jsteel's post be removed. It is inappropriate here in my opinion. This is a sanctuary.

I feel that one of the Moderators probably should delete it and take jsteel to the foyer.

BlueGirl

04-03-2008, 01:49 PM

Hello,

I hate to give you the bad news but no

God said:

Romans 1:26-27: "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence [sic] of their error which was meet."

There is only one way to salvation and it's a narrow way.

If you give up you sin and repent god will except you

jsteel,
First of all, have you given up ALL of your sins? You don't commit any? Do you always keep what Jesus said is the first two commandments?

You quote what Paul said but not what Jesus said. Those of us who are saved, are saved by the blood of Jesus, not by the blood of Paul or Moses. This may come as a surprise to you, but the apostle Paul was not God or a puppet. He was 100% human, just like you and I are. NO human knows everything and all humans make mistakes.
Jesus was God in human form. God gave Jesus the authority to judge. He didn’t give it to Paul or to anyone else. Get your nose out of the Old Testament and the writings of Paul and learn what Jesus said. Read John 5:24, John 3:16-18 (pay particular attention to verse 18), and John 11: 25 & 26. There are other verses in the Gospels concerning salvation, and also in the writings of Paul, but those will do for a start. I’m very happy :) to be able to tell you that “whosoever” includes gay people too.

Since Paul was completely human like the rest of us and wasn’t a puppet, he did have beliefs and opinions of his own, just like the rest of us do. Not every word out of his mouth was told to him by God. He was a Jewish Pharisee before he became a Christian. Do you think he threw all of those beliefs aside? Maybe he was talking about gay people in that “clobber passage” in Romans and didn’t like gay people. I don’t know. But he didn’t think much of women either. He never thought enough of one to marry.

I definitely don’t believe that all gay feelings and behavior is a sin but IF it were, it wouldn’t be any worse than any other sin. To God, sin is sin. NO ONE is saved by being “good” (keeping the law-all of it). Belief in Jesus as Savior is what saves us, as is made plain in the Bible verses I’ve listed above. Those are the words of Jesus and I'm very happy :) to tell you that they apply to gay people as well as to heterosexuals.
Thank you, Jesus! :pray: :)

BlueGirl

capeguy74

04-03-2008, 02:11 PM

To jsteele: I am intimately familiar with Romans 1 and 1 Corinthians 6. For many years, I hung onto that passage as a condemnation of any expression of homosexuality in a Christian context. I am beginning to see that perhaps that was not what Paul intended when he wrote this.

I watched a video on this site yesterday that talks all about Romans 1. The minister made a very good point. Paul is condemning promiscuous homosexual activity. He is not singling out loving, affirming, righteous, committed relationships between people of the same, or different, sexes. For many years, I rejected that line of reasoning. But I am beginning to accept it.

To others: Again, thank you for your support and encouragement. I am starting to experience the shunning now of my current congregation, the Church of Christ. I expected that. I am planning to try a more affirming denomination this Sunday, for the very first time, and see what happens. I am often praying these days :pray: for God's direction and insight. I want to live within His will, not mine. I have even been praying, and will continue to pray, that if the path I am taking now is wrong and against His will, to please make that very clear to me.

Love and peace,
Jason

scott snedeker

04-03-2008, 02:41 PM

I want to live within His will, not mine. I have even been praying, and will continue to pray, that if the path I am taking now is wrong and against His will, to please make that very clear to me.

Love and peace,
Jason

I have no doubt they are one and the same. When you feel love and peace in your heart like you have mentioned recently after posting here------That is the proof....

That is awareness of His will, not fear or self loathing, or denial of what your heart feels. Fear is disconnection. Avoid the path that leads to it.

Love and peace is awareness of connection. Follow the path that leads to it and I have no doubt that you will know that you are on the right one.

capeguy74

04-03-2008, 03:14 PM

Hello everyone,

This e-mail hit me particularly hard because it's from a guy who has been a good friend of mine since I moved to the area a couple of years ago. He is the music ministry leader, and I worked alongside him for most of that time singing tenor on songs in front of the congregation. The subject was, "oh where, oh where can my underdog be?" What do you all think?:

Not that I’m calling you Underdog, but where, oh where can you be?

I’m guessing by your absence that things are not well. Come on, Jason, what’s up?
Christ came to give us freedom, not slavery to our passions and emotions!

Get up off your face! What’s the world going to give you that’s worth the price of your soul?

Come on, brother, don’t listen to the lies.
If you’re low on faith right now, then hear the message, through the word of Christ. But don’t give up.
You can’t give up. I refuse to let you give up.

Zerbie

04-03-2008, 03:33 PM

To jsteele: I am intimately familiar with Romans 1 and 1 Corinthians 6. For many years, I hung onto that passage as a condemnation

. I am often praying these days :pray: for God's direction and insight. I want to live within His will, not mine. I have even been praying, and will continue to pray, that if the path I am taking now is wrong and against His will, to please make that very clear to me.

Love and peace,
Jason

I think that is important. We have to give up what we desire the "right answer" to be, before we can be open to receiving it. When I asked questions about homosexuality, I laid down my desire for the outcome I wanted to hear and waited, really open, to hear the real 'answer.' I received one. But another wise soul (who posts here, in fact) has been known to say that if we do not perceive an "answer" and we "guess wrong" about the gay question, God *still* loves us. God loves us if we make our best educated guess and happen to guess wrong.

So, I'm convinced we do not happen to be wrong. But even if we were, God would love us, and eventually bring us correction. (Which, incidentally, is what I believe is the case with those who believe gay=wrong, that God is whispering a message of love to them which will ultimately correct them and inspire them to embrace their gay brothers with complete respect for their full dignity and worth.)

Hello everyone,

This e-mail hit me particularly hard because it's from a guy who has been a good friend of mine since I moved to the area a couple of years ago. He is the music ministry leader, and I worked alongside him for most of that time singing tenor on songs in front of the congregation. The subject was, "oh where, oh where can my underdog be?" What do you all think?:

.

Without knowing him, and without much context, who knows? On surface, it sounds like he is quite well-meaning and wants well for you, but does not understand what really is for your best well-being. It sounds like you have been open with him about your struggles with your orientation. Just a thought before we go on: is there any possibility your friend might also have some struggle with his own orientation? Not saying he is, but the possibility is something to be aware of. If he is gay and not able to accept himself, the path you are now on would be exceptionally threatening to him. If that is not the case, then I would assume he means well, but simply does not understand what you are going through and discovering.

I wouldn't lean so heavily on the words of others, Jason. Life is so hard when we do so. When someone's words unsettle you, I suggest going someplace quiet and praying for a while. Sit in silence and just be with your Lord.

Zerbie

04-03-2008, 03:36 PM

BTW. I second Scotty's opinion re: the questionable post. It does violate guidelines, does it not?

keltic63

04-03-2008, 03:55 PM

BTW. I second Scotty's opinion re: the questionable post. It does violate guidelines, does it not?

so let's hash it out in public and put it up for a vote. :mad:

we all know what is BEHIND the post. that is what is making us angry. but did the post itself, basically a quotation of scripture, albeit one of the clobber passages, did the post specifically say something anti-gay? YES, the intent is there, I agree. I went with what I thought might work, which was to leave it up, allow our members to respond, as they always do, and allow capeguy to see how we handle such things.

who's bringing the tar? who's got access to feathers?

or shall I just be ridden out of town on a rail?

capeguy74

04-03-2008, 03:56 PM

It sounds like you have been open with him about your struggles with your orientation. Just a thought before we go on: is there any possibility your friend might also have some struggle with his own orientation? Not saying he is, but the possibility is something to be aware of. If he is gay and not able to accept himself, the path you are now on would be exceptionally threatening to him. If that is not the case, then I would assume he means well, but simply does not understand what you are going through and discovering.

Zerbie,
Thank you again for your encouragement. To answer your question, so far as I know, my friend is not gay, nor does he struggle with it. He does know of my struggles and is supportive ... so long as I suppress them or do not otherwise act on them, or so long as I recognize they are "unbiblical" and that I "need to repent." Again, though, I am not so sure any more about that.

Jason

keltic63

04-03-2008, 03:59 PM

Zerbie,
Thank you again for your encouragement. To answer your question, so far as I know, my friend is not gay, nor does he struggle with it. He does know of my struggles and is supportive ... so long as I suppress them or do not otherwise act on them, or so long as I recognize they are "unbiblical" and that I "need to repent." Again, though, I am not so sure any more about that.

Jason

ok, I don't want to play the game of stereotyping or generalizing, BUT, many church musicians are gay, myself included. it's very possible that if your music minister sees you accepting yourself, it's a threatening proposition to his own life and livelihood.

capeguy74

04-03-2008, 04:04 PM

so let's hash it out in public and put it up for a vote. :mad:

we all know what is BEHIND the post. that is what is making us angry. but did the post itself, basically a quotation of scripture, albeit one of the clobber passages, did the post specifically say something anti-gay? YES, the intent is there, I agree. I went with what I thought might work, which was to leave it up, allow our members to respond, as they always do, and allow capeguy to see how we handle such things.

who's bringing the tar? who's got access to feathers?

or shall I just be ridden out of town on a rail?

Hi keltic,
I will not be part of the group bringing the tar and feathers :)

I am glad you left the post up. I must admit, I was hurt at first by it, as it brought up an old argument I have used against myself and even, regretfully :( against others who have been in my position. (Please forgive me, Lord, and everyone in here.)

But the post also caused me to reflect on what that Scripture really is saying. As I said before, Paul seems to be condemning, not homosexuality per se, but gay promiscuity (even heterosexual promiscuity), as well as a myriad of other vices.

And I really appreciate the civil level of discussion in here. So many other forums I have been to degenerate into vitriolic attacks against the maker of a thread or poster of a message. I see no evidence of that here.

Blessings,
Jason

scott snedeker

04-03-2008, 06:02 PM

First I would like to apologize to Steve (Keltic63) for coming on initially with a harsh public criticism of allowing Jsteel's post to go undeleted. I have been regretting it all day. My unedited post is toned down significantly from it's original.

I misdirected Jsteel's activation of a very violent negative vibration within me, the vibration of rage. At least I can honestly say that the vibration activated was not fear, which would be two emotional vibration levels lower. I also can appreciate that in my current spiritual development that I felt no gratification from feeling rage either, another indication of my progress.

But enough about what I think of me . Now what do you think of me?:lol::lol::lol:

I was feeling protective of Jason.....and kinda blew it. But I also want to point out that jsteel's intrusion of a clobber passage while Jason was just starting to appear to connect to awareness of his entitlement to love and joy without changing was just deplorable. So in response something Good needs to be introduced.

That is, we have something worth defending. We have a place where so many like myself have come to grow spiritually and emotionally. A place where a glbt person can learn how to start letting go of the fear of damnation, of the fear of loss of control, of the fear of being alone and undefended.

A place where awareness of entitlement to love joy and life can be explored, developed and nurtured. A family of affirmation, with playmates and well-intended teasing and genuine compassion. A rare sanctuary to where Jason and those coming after him, come when there seems to be no where to turn. Where Jason and others like him honor us with their trust

andrewlittle

04-03-2008, 06:28 PM

My vote is that, if capeguy is okay with the intrusion into his thread, I can live with jsteel - unless he really tromps on the rules.

I would like to suggest to jsteel, however, that it would be more Christian to pick his thread's more carefully. When someone asks for care - what we might, in church, call pastoral care, which is a function of the laity as well as clergy - then care is the appropriate response.

Even if I agreed with jsteel, which I don't, I've never thought a baseball bat made a good evangelism tool.

Anyway, capeguy, I never said "hello".

Hello, I'm Andy to my friends, so I would be honored if you'd call me Andy. On the journey you're undertaking, you will undoubtedly run into periods during which you are faced with cognitive dissonance - those times that new insights run up smack against old beliefs that you may not be ready to let go of. The journey is yours, as is the timing. If I can help in any way, I'd be happy to.

Just remember, the impediment to new learning is not ignorance - it's old knowledge. Let the Holy Spirit flow through and around you, my friend, and enjoy the ride.

As you have already noticed, many of us will try to protect you - you'll have to let us know if we get in your way. The good doctor, Scotty, is being a little hard on himself, though - what he said seemed appropriate at the time.

keltic63

04-03-2008, 06:32 PM

Zerbie

04-03-2008, 06:51 PM

Hi darlins',

:):love: Y'all are too good to be true. :p But, here y'all are, jus' the same. :D

Thanks, Steve, I get why you let the post stand. Like Scotty, I too was responding to what appeared as possibly a cruel or predatory motive for its appearance at a time that is obviously being fragile for Jason.

Yeah Jason. . . . sometimes we get (overly?) protective around here. :o:p As you're seeing, we eventually manage to get a handle on ourselves whatever we've got going on. Like Scotty, I also did not want you to go without 'defenders,' so to speak.

Sadly, it is often a gay person unable to come to a place of self acceptance who cites those verses. Makes the heart hurt to think of someone feeling so badly. :( And we certainly don't want you to stay in a place full of pain. That's all that's going on with us.

And look at you - you're the one able to be philosophical about it all. :D

Seriously. Glad you're around. Hope you will stay.
:)

antonyh

04-03-2008, 07:00 PM

Hi Jason,

Here is a testimony for you. It is from Joey Heath a former EQ rider. There is hope.

xlyxuOaIwxo

God does indeed love you more than you can imagine right now.

tymejumper

04-03-2008, 07:22 PM

To jsteele: I am intimately familiar with Romans 1 and 1 Corinthians 6. For many years, I hung onto that passage as a condemnation of any expression of homosexuality in a Christian context. I am beginning to see that perhaps that was not what Paul intended when he wrote this.

I feel very sorry for jsteele. He is a lost soul. His God is a hateful person if he truly believes that is what Pauls word was. I on the other hand, I feel my God is loving and affirming and don't make junk. I don't believe for a second that a God would not be a loving father.

Jason, I do believe your God lead you to us for the support you needed to be what he made you. Many of us have struggled with our sexuality, many of us have been married or tried in various ways to hide who and what we are. I always felt that something was wrong with me because I didn't feel love past friendship for my ex-husband(who by the way was gay also). When I met my wife, I felt that Gods love was shining down on me and said "wow, this is what the hype is all about, this is what it is to be complete". If it were wrong to love her, then I would know, somewhere inside my very soul and heart that it was wrong. The opposite has happened. I feel like it is the most right and holy thing that has happened.

I think that in order to know exactly what was said by these holy men, we would have to go back in time, listen to them and put it all into context of THAT time.

Jason, you will not go to Hell for who you are. God don't make junk.

Much Metta
Rebekah:love:

tymejumper

04-03-2008, 07:27 PM

BTW. I second Scotty's opinion re: the questionable post. It does violate guidelines, does it not?

Exactly, I third it. This is a SAFE spot, and not for others to use against us. Please remove his post and his menbership.

keltic63

04-03-2008, 07:29 PM

Exactly, I third it. This is a SAFE spot, and not for others to use against us. Please remove his post and his menbership.

ARRRGGGGHHHHHH! :mad: :mad: :mad:

tymejumper

04-03-2008, 07:34 PM

ARRRGGGGHHHHHH! :mad: :mad: :mad:

Sorry if it is unpopular to write that, but I thought we had put it up for a vote? Or, are we past that point now? :confused::confused:

scott snedeker

04-03-2008, 07:44 PM

Paul isn't EVEN REALLY condemning promiscuity

U-dog! You amaze me! But then I should expect that by now.:lol::lol:

How a Calvinist defends a heathen polyamorous pagan (who embraces the teachings of Christ) like me.

Cool!

Who wudda thunk!

capeguy74

04-03-2008, 08:26 PM

Hey everyone,

I appreciate the protection. It shows me you love me :D :love:

Poor keltic. I'm sorry you're feeling singled out and having a bad day. I know all too well how that feels. :eek:

I appreciate the testimonial, too. I could relate to him; in fact, that guy was even more deeply entrenched in his church than I am in mine.

I am so grateful for this community. Thank you all. I will stick around. I already feel a kinship with each one of you (except one nameless one, but you all can figure out who that :p )

Blessings,
Jason

Vanessa White

04-03-2008, 09:02 PM

If we are, I was in favor, since noon Eastern time today, that Keltic left the post up. Here is why.....

When I first saw the post by jsteel, sure, I knew I did not want capeguy to see it; to hurt him in such a way, that he was starting to feel a bit better about. However, I wanted jsteel to feel our full response as a community of God, as a community of friends and support; so I PM'ed keltic that we should keep his posts up.

This always has to be a difficult choice for our mods; I feel very certain that keltic can defend himself here; I want to protect those that come here very vulnerable, hurt, rejected by their churches, their God, so they think, their families, etc., and I want to offer solace and safety to them here.

However, we can't shut the world at large out. So, we do what we can to keep each other safe, informed, and loved. And also do our best to stand up to the misinformation that at times gets posted here.

Sure, I want to be angry, vengeful, frustrated, and fed up.

But, I really want to live in a place of love even in the face of adversity.

I want to continue to love myself, and for capeguy and every other friend here to continue to have love for self, and not be influenced by this dogma.

:love::love::love::love::love:

tymejumper

04-03-2008, 09:18 PM

However, we can't shut the world at large out. So, we do what we can to keep each other safe, informed, and loved. And also do our best to stand up to the misinformation that at times gets posted here.

Everyone else seems to be fine with the post in question. I just honestly want this to be a safe space for us. All opinions count, and we can learn from others. I should have ideally looked upon the 'post' as an opportunity to extinguish ignorance, than as a direct attack upon the community at large. So much for me being Martin Luther King(wanna be????):rolleyes:

Vanessa White

04-03-2008, 09:35 PM

Hey Tymejumper:

Believe me, I was by no means okay with the post. I struggled initially with what I personally wanted to do about it when I saw it. But, I saw it as an opportunity to be as peaceful as possible, even thought that was EXTREMELY difficult; you have no idea......... I so wanted to go into "protector" mode, and forbid that person from being here. But, that person, jsteel, knows full well what type of website he is on when he visits SF. He has a message that he feels compelled to bring to others, misguided as it may be.

I can only hope that in his journeys, he will discover the true light of God, and the light within himself. :love:

Daniel

04-03-2008, 10:43 PM

But my.....a lot has happened.

When I saw the post in question I rolled my eyes. "Here we go again" I thought.

Well. Everyone has aquitted themselves rather nicely, don't you think? Keltic has looked out for the interests of the forum and everyone else has too- in their own way.

Looks like a win win to me.

When a bible verse is used to slash someones tires....well....that kinda gets to ya, doesn't it? So tiresome. So predictable. So been there done that.

There are wolves out there in the woods. Some of them are in sheeps clothing. I say we endeavor to have some compassion for the wanna-be wolf. Some people really get a kick out of beating dead horses.

May God have mercy on his soul. Mercy he would deny another child of God.

Jason- you are going to find your fleece. It is already in your hands.

tdogg

04-03-2008, 11:13 PM

Could it be possible that God loves me, in spite of my orientation?

It's not only possible that God love you Capeguy, it's TRUE. But God doesn't love you in spite of your orientation, God loves you oh so much more BECAUSE of it! You are a special blessing to your God, just the way you are.

Don't you ever let anyone else take that away from you. Ok??? Ok! I'm so glad you are here, as you've already experienced, there are so many kind, compassionate and understanding people here who will not only accept you, but embrace you. Welcome! :love::love:

Tdogg

capeguy74

04-03-2008, 11:38 PM

Everyone,

I know I must sound like a broken record, but I can't thank you enough for the love, support and encouragement you give me. :rainbow:

Now, with the research I have been dedicating myself to since I first signed on here a couple of days ago, I have run across a proposition I find to be very biblical and real, and also very troubling/daunting to me. I'm sure some of you are familiar with gaychristian.net. Well, if you are, then you likely have read "The Great Debate," where Justin uses Scripture and logic to back up his contention that God blesses committed, loving, monogamous same-sex relationships, while Ron uses Scripture and logic to back up his view that God loves homosexuals, but that the Bible commands them to live a life of celibacy, abstaining from gay sexual activity.

They're both well-reasoned and use lots of Scripture. But I must say, I found Ron's argument more compelling. So does that mean I can never have the hope of being in a committed relationship that is blessed by God? That is how it appears to me. And that breaks my heart :( Because I don't see myself ever being in a traditional marriage. To me, it wouldn't be fair to whoever my wife would be to subject her to my same-sex struggles. :'(

OK, I've rambled enough. You all are great. Please keep the feedback coming, and please pray for me :pray:

Love and peace,
Jason

Zerbie

04-04-2008, 12:14 AM

Can you perhaps let this question go for now? Maybe not, and maybe it's the wrong suggestion. But what if you let go of searching for the 'correct' idea to which to adhere, and quietly allow God's messages, conveyed to your spirit in the silence of contemplation, to guide you? That means not planning way ahead and putting carts in front of horses.

I do most decidedly concur however, that if you feel no attraction to women and you desire men, that you would only deepen the struggle by getting into a heterosexual relationship. Besides which you would then bring another person into what cannot lead to complete fulfillment for either of you, and at worst, might even lead to misery. Do not take such a course.

You alone will have to decide if 'celibacy' is something you are called to. The way your message was written, I sense all over it that the answer is no, you are not called to celibacy.
Otoh, I understand why you would not want to enter a romantic relationship for which you are psychologically unprepared or about which you have theological doubts. But why not wait and see what life has in store before you try to make such a decision? Who knows if you won't meet some wonderful, deeply spiritual man who completely blows your concepts out of the water and fulfills your sense of spirituality in a way you thought impossible? There really is no knowing the future.

I say, get quiet and spend a lot more time being receptive to God's guidance from within.

Daniel

04-04-2008, 12:38 AM

"And it breaks my heart"

So the guy has a 'logical' argument for being celibate. Tell me: is he in a Holy Order and taking vows which are another matter entirely? Is he married to God and no one else?

Please, let me tell you, being married to the same man for 15 years, it is a blessing to make love to one's Beloved- capital B. Trying to live a life of martydom (and that is what it truly is my friend) to find some made up idea of what God wants and approves of- is pure - and unadulterated nonsense!

We are made to love, not be to robots or Stepford Wives. And real love means flesh that is pressed togeher, carressed and delighting in all the variations of lovemaking. This is not evil temptation, but the fullfillment of one's inner being. And waiting for that last homophobe to get with the program (be it one's parents, brother or sister) before one opens oneself up to the relative and actual reality of physical love, is agreeing to let everyone else enter the Promised Land and you are Moses- shut out.

That's what celibacy is if one is not a monk. And let me tell you- having met qjuite a few of them- they are rare birds who suffer from the same same-sex desires. Why is it that celibacy is aways demanded by those who don't practice it? ;) And what the is that hell is that all about?

Such pruritanical nonsense!

Here's one thing to ponder my friend: the heart trumps the head every time. Listen to it, and it will not fail you. Listen deeply as you would to someone who is in distress and great need.

The heart wants to connect with others, not live in some limbo land where one supposedly gets points for being the good gay guy who doens't act one his feellings. And that point, it's not about you, but about them and their discomfort factor. And a word to the wise: gay persons who are not excepting of their orientation can be the most demanding and the most vicious.

Hey! I did that stuff for way too long. And what did I get out of it?

NOTHING. No joy. No peace. No love.

Nothing but heartache and pain.

One has to not only listen with the heart, but also act from the heart. And in the Eastern Orthodox tradtion, there are practices (Jesus Prayer) which encourage the mind (which is running amok) to descend into the heart itself.

That is real thinking. Not this pseudo-logical stuff.

Pablo Rafael

04-04-2008, 06:02 AM

Jason,

I just have to get my opinion in here once again. If you feel called by God to live a life of celibacy, that is indeed the path you should take. But if you are chosing that path for yourself because you feel it is the only option that you have, that is a different matter.

I chose the path of celibacy for most of my 46 years because I thought there was no other option. The only reason that I thought God wanted me to be celibate was because I was captive to the prejudices and dogmas that had been handed down to me by the church and society. I am now firmly convinced that it was not God who desired me to be lonely and celibate; it was my own stubborn thinking that kept me trapped in that mindset. I now am convinced that what God has chosen for me is the married life with a man He will send my way.

If it is those six Bible verses that seem to be problematic, look closely at them. A good look at them makes one realize they are indeed a very unsubstantial basis on which to formulate a anti-gay doctrine. I am convinced that the only way they can be interpreted to condemn homosexual unions is if one already has that idea in his head and is simply looking for a verse to back up the notion. The Romans passage talks about going "against nature". My nature is certainly gay. I discovered with my one try at heterosexual romance that being with a woman was certainly not natural for me. The verses of Paul that have "homosexuality" in the list of sins are certainly mistranslated. I firmly believe that there is homosexual immorality just as there is heterosexual immorality. All God's people gay and straight are to live lives of faithfulness and love. The homosexuality Paul is most likely addressing in those couple of passages is the sexual immorality that was very prevelant in Greco-Roman socity of the first century. A rather deep look at the issue of first century sexuality is covered in an excellent book The New Testament and Homosexuality by Robin Scroggs. It is a rather heavy theological look at the issue. It is written by a straight theologian (Lutheran) who has no personal bias on the subject.

I you are called to celibacy by God, you need to follow that path. I urge you not to take that path if you feel you must because you are trapped in it. Go to God in prayer and listen to His response. And when He does speak, be sure to be open to His leading.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

keltic63

04-04-2008, 08:31 AM

the "Side B" concept as they like to call it over there at GCN has a couple of problems, some of which are scriptural and some of which are just problems of logic.

If gay sex is a sin, but having a homosexual orientation is not, then we get into a theology of only our actions determining our salvation. Jesus said it isn't what goes into the body that is sinful(our actions, especially following the law!), it's what comes out (or our intentions, our thoughts, how our hearts lead us to behave). Jesus also pointed out that if someone lusts (has impure thoughts regarding another person) that they have already sinned as if they had actually done the deed! So, for those who would saddle all gay and lesbian people with celibacy, they have to overlook our thought lives that naturally attract us to people of the same sex. (If I'm attracted to someone, there is certainly some amount of lust, at what point does attraction cross the line into lust?) So I guess my point is that if Jesus says "thinking about it is the same as doing it" then saying it's ok to gay, just don't act on it is not enough to let me Jesus' standard.

the second problem to me is a logic problem. From the Side B viewpoint: God, for some reason, has created a class of people in which he places the natural attraction for persons of the same sex, then saddles them with the constraint of never acting on that attraction; never having the full human experience of intimacy. I don't believe that God, a loving God, would ever do that.

scott snedeker

04-04-2008, 08:33 AM

God loves homosexuals, but that the Bible commands them to live a life of celibacy, abstaining from gay sexual activity.

So this means that He created me gay and commands I am not entitled to the same joy as my brother, who He created straight. And Africans are inferior also and therefore need white masters to enslave them.

The "Truth" is some people are "second class humans." This is a fact because ummmm..........Hold it! What the Hell? Did we just slip into the 19th century? God creates second class humans with fewer entitlements? Sound thinking? Wake up! Only humans would come up with this bullcrap! Not God! That's spitting in His face!

They're both well-reasoned and use lots of Scripture. But I must say, I found Ron's argument more compelling. So does that mean I can never have the hope of being in a committed relationship that is blessed by God? That is how it appears to me. And that breaks my heart :( Because I don't see myself ever being in a traditional marriage. To me, it wouldn't be fair to whoever my wife would be to subject her to my same-sex struggles. :'(

OK, I've rambled enough. You all are great. Please keep the feedback coming, and please pray for me :pray:

Love and peace,
Jason

Don't Buy it for a second Jason. You are no less entitled that everyone else. God did not create you to be a second class, less entitled human so that he could get gratification from watching your heart break! Neither are Africans inferior and deserving of enslavement. You are loved and He wants you to share joy with another gay fella who He also loves!

Steven E. Webster

04-04-2008, 09:42 AM

Everyone,

Now, with the research I have been dedicating myself to since I first signed on here a couple of days ago, I have run across a proposition I find to be very biblical and real, and also very troubling/daunting to me. I'm sure some of you are familiar with gaychristian.net. Well, if you are, then you likely have read "The Great Debate," where Justin uses Scripture and logic to back up his contention that God blesses committed, loving, monogamous same-sex relationships, while Ron uses Scripture and logic to back up his view that God loves homosexuals, but that the Bible commands them to live a life of celibacy, abstaining from gay sexual activity.

They're both well-reasoned and use lots of Scripture. But I must say, I found Ron's argument more compelling. So does that mean I can never have the hope of being in a committed relationship that is blessed by God? That is how it appears to me. And that breaks my heart :( Because I don't see myself ever being in a traditional marriage. To me, it wouldn't be fair to whoever my wife would be to subject her to my same-sex struggles. :'(

OK, I've rambled enough. You all are great. Please keep the feedback coming, and please pray for me :pray:

Love and peace,
Jason

I need to speak up from my Methodist tradition of theology---relying solely on "scripture and logic" is being way to narrow and potentially excluding the many other ways that the Holy Spirit communicates God's truth to us. We Methodists speak of a "quadrilateral" which is Scripture, Reason, Experience and Tradition. We think all four of these criteria need to be applied to theological and religious questions. Ron, you seem to be excluding your very own experience as a valid source of knowledge about God. Why are you privileging Scritpure and logic, and denying your very own experience of life and the God of life?

Sounds to me that what God is trying to tell you through your own experience is that you are not called to celibacy nor to marriage with a woman.

Surely you know that scripture has been used to support racism and the oppression of women. It was only when people reflected on how these racist and sexist scriptures harmed real, live children of God that folks could reinterpret some scriptures and simply set aside others (like the ones that say that women cannot preach or have authority in the church).

I believe that scripture is inspired by God, but it is also the product of human culture and bears all the marks of human imperfection.

Remember, scripture itself says, "the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life" (not sure of my quote there, but it comes from Paul).

Steven Webster

keltic63

04-04-2008, 09:58 AM

Forgive me if this comes across as a little pi$$y, which is my essential mood the past few days.

I need to speak up from my Methodist tradition of theology---relying solely on "scripture and logic" is being way to narrow and potentially excluding the many other ways that the Holy Spirit communicates God's truth to us.

I am the one who introduced the idea of scripture and logic into this conversation. I did not imply that those are the only way to interpret scripture. I did say that those are 2 ways in which the whole idea of Side B can be rendered as unsound.

We Methodists speak of a "quadrilateral" which is Scripture, Reason, Experience and Tradition. We think all four of these criteria need to be applied to theological and religious questions. Ron, you seem to be excluding your very own experience as a valid source of knowledge about God. Why are you privileging Scritpure and logic, and denying your very own experience of life and the God of life?

Ron is the guy at GCN who wrote the position statement in favor of "Side B" which acknowledges homosexual orientation, but excludes homosexual activity, thus calling all lgbt people to celibacy.

Jason, or capeguy, is the person who started this thread, and introduced this idea here.

Sounds to me that what God is trying to tell you through your own experience is that you are not called to celibacy nor to marriage with a woman.

Surely you know that scripture has been used to support racism and the oppression of women. It was only when people reflected on how these racist and sexist scriptures harmed real, live children of God that folks could reinterpret some scriptures and simply set aside others (like the ones that say that women cannot preach or have authority in the church).

I believe that scripture is inspired by God, but it is also the product of human culture and bears all the marks of human imperfection.

Remember, scripture itself says, "the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life" (not sure of my quote there, but it comes from Paul).

Steven Webster

yes! that is an affirmation of what Jesus was trying to tell us, and I'd say it's a pretty good reason that Jesus had to come to earth in the first place.

capeguy74

04-04-2008, 12:12 PM

There are several lines of reasoning here that I find compelling. The two that hit me the most are these: a) Scripture has been used throughout history to justify ungodly actions, such as slavery, racism and sexism. b) My own life experience tells me that, try as I might to change, I cannot because this is the way God made me. And if that is so, would a loving God relegate me to a second-class status, unable to experience the love and union that heterosexual people can? An affirmative answer doesn't seem to make sense.

However, there is still one thing that troubles me about "Side B." When GCN's Ron set out to learn more about what the Bible says about homosexuality, he did not only focus on the six "clobber passages." He studied the Bible as a whole. He compared those passages to other passages and applied concepts. And when he set out on this study, his objective was to find that God does indeed bless same-sex, monogamous relationships. But his own study brought him to the opposite conclusion.

Also, I have seen some suggestions that perhaps those trying to saddle those of us with a homosexual orientation with lifelong celibacy either a) do not live our struggle, or b) do not themselves adhere to that standard. Now I don't know Ron personally, but he does claim, and sounds sincere in doing so, that he a) has a homosexual orientation, and b) holds to the celibacy standard, difficult and painful as that may be.

So that's where I'm at now for now. I am not expecting any magical solutions today, tomorrow or even next week. But I do pray for continual insight from God through whatever methods He chooses.

Thank you again.

With love,
Jason

Zerbie

04-04-2008, 12:16 PM

All I have to add is the suggestion that you not live Ron's life, but live your own.

Find Jason's understanding. Nothing less will ever satisfy your questions.

scott snedeker

04-04-2008, 12:51 PM

All I have to add is the suggestion that you not live Ron's life, but live your own.

Find Jason's understanding. Nothing less will ever satisfy your questions.

Well said Zerbie!

I can think of a few good reasons why one would be celibate.

1. The psychological damage is so severe that it would be traumatic (abuse victim)

2. That the individual was too good at mastrubation to bother

3. They have no sexual desire.

4. Someone else who hates themself and truly believes he is a second class human and thinks others like him should suffer with him------NOT

BTW Monoandrous is the more accurate term. Monogamous means one woman not one man.

When I try to change my feeling of love based on what I intellectually think I should feel, guess what? I can't.

I turn it the other way around. I based what I think intellectually based on what I feel. That make more sense to me. I find internal resistance evaporates and I blossom

Kris Johnson

04-04-2008, 02:20 PM

Jason, I hope you can disregard the ignorance shown by jsteele. You are a beautiful beloved child of God, JUST THE WAY GOD MADE YOU! You have nothing to apologize for and nothing to justify. God made you the way you are because God has plans for you and the gifts you have been given. You have a unique,special place to fill in God's kingdom. Please keep coming back to this forum, there are some truly incredible people on this site. I don't post much, because I love to read what others have to say and feel that I have much to learn from them. Let them, let us be here for you, pray for you, and talk with you.
You are in my prayers
Kris

Zerbie

04-04-2008, 04:06 PM

I can think of a few good reasons why one would be celibate.

1.

2. That the individual was too good at mastrubation to bother

3.

FFFFFFFFFt!!! BWAAHHHAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!! :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing: :rofl::rofl::rofl::lol::lol:

OMG! Scotty!! You're too much! :lol::lol:

tymejumper

04-04-2008, 04:21 PM

2. That the individual was too good at mastrubation to bother

Funny you should mention that 'M' word, just had a discussion with my 11 year old son about that recently!:lol::lol::lol::lol:

I must say, thank the lord we are able to take care of ourselves from time to time!:lol::lol::lol:

scott snedeker

04-04-2008, 04:32 PM

Funny you should mention that 'M' word, just had a discussion with my 11 year old son about that recently!:lol::lol::lol::lol:

I must say, thank the lord we are able to take care of ourselves from time to time!:lol::lol::lol:

Practice makes perfect!!!!:D:lol::lol::lol::lol:

TigerXero

04-04-2008, 04:36 PM

:'( I am constantly upset by the amount of suffering that Christianity can cause in peoples lives. (Yes, I am glass half empty about this... and philosophically rather distressed by any religion that causes suffering.) However, ignoring my own personal issues with this aspect of Christianity, I am very happy that you have found this website, Cape. I came here (as countless others have, including friends of mine) just as you did about a year ago and I struggled for about three months (intensive research/studying/prayer included) with the issue of homosexuality even after arriving here, but I can't tell you how much happier and at peace I am now that I've accepted myself and came to a better understanding of what I believe the current version of Bible says (revelation?). Everyone else is giving you great advice, but we can only be here to guide you as I'm sure you're awaree. Always know this place will be a refuge for you if you are weary, and the people here are awesome to boot. :D

Steven E. Webster

04-04-2008, 07:14 PM

Well said Zerbie!

BTW Monoandrous is the more accurate term. Monogamous means one woman not one man.

Scott,

We need to get to the Greek roots here. You are right about "monandrous, but I think "one woman" would be "monogynous", not monogamous. I think the "-gamous" part of "monogamous" refers to the Greek for "marriage" or "spouse" not the Greek for "woman." (One wit described having one spouse as being "monotony")

By the same token, I think marrying more than one woman would be "polygyny" and marrying more than one man would be "polyandry," but "polygamy" doesn't specify genders, but just refers to plural marriage.

Any real Greek scholars out there?--come on, I know we got some!

Steven Webster

scott snedeker

04-04-2008, 07:40 PM

Scott,

We need to get to the Greek roots here. You are right about "monandrous, but I think "one woman" would be "monogynous", not monogamous. I think the "-gamous" part of "monogamous" refers to the Greek for "marriage" or "spouse" not the Greek for "woman." (One wit described having one spouse as being "monotony")

By the same token, I think marrying more than one woman would be "polygyny" and marrying more than one man would be "polyandry," but "polygamy" doesn't specify genders, but just refers to plural marriage.

Any real Greek scholars out there?--come on, I know we got some!

Steven Webster

Science Dictionary: monogamy
(muh-nog-uh-mee)

A form of marriage in which one man is united with one woman. (Compare polyandry and polygamy.)

monoandry - Wiktionary
Mar 21, 2008 ... monoandry (uncountable). The practice of having one husband at the same time.
... Retrieved from "http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/monoandry" ...
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/monoandry

http://www.answers.com/polygamy

http://www.answers.com/polyandry

Curiously none of the references referred to same-gender polyandry or polygny. The heterosexist bias still pervades our language!!!!!

Daniel

04-04-2008, 09:08 PM

And what man isn't?

There is a great deal to be learned from self-pleasuring. And conscious- not furtive I-better-do-this-in-a-hurry-before-someone-catches-me - self-pleasuring.

How is it we learn such SHAME about our bodies? But most of us do, don't we?

For the men among us, if you want to learn about conscious self-pleasuring, I highly recommend the book The Multi-Orgasmic Man. While it addresses the subject from a Taoist veiwpoint, that is actually beside the point. The point being that the techniques that the book gives the reader are such that, in mastery of them, one becomes not only acquainted with one's body and feelings, but also- as a gay man- the responses and feelings of one's partner.

Practical stuff. What is the old axiom?

Know thyself! :D

Why is this important to this discussion of the B side? Because, as I see it, sexual energy is not something that can be turned on an off like a switch. It is more like a wide flowing river that cannot be easily made to flow in another direction.

What those on the B side forget is that shutting down this flow is tantamount to shutting down all creative impulses- and even in that- the flow still wants to take it's path. This energy is easily distorted when the dictates of certain persons and institutions are adhered to - and one has only to look at the recent court cases with the Catholic church to know what I am referring to. The energy leaks out, but in harmful ways.

Just because someone has the matter worked out logically for themselves means squat. The mind can 'logic' just about anything out. Just as it can 'logic' something in. But in the end, this is living by half.

What about the heart?

It has a mind of it's own, and if ignored, too often turns to stone. Knowing thyself in a sacred space? One can see God.

His name is the one most often uttered during the heights of great pleasure. And there is no shame in that.

Zerbie

04-04-2008, 11:54 PM

Daniel's post here is sheer genius.

Boys, print it out and paste it to the bathroom mirror, the refrigerator door - someplace where you will see it Every Day.
:)

capeguy74

04-05-2008, 08:40 AM

I would not impose my view as a standard for anyone else. That is because Scripture does not say anything specifically about masturbation.

But in my experience, I have actually felt farther from God when I have allowed myself that. Here is what I chalk it up to: a weak conscience, the one Paul describes in Romans 14. In that chapter, he uses a couple of examples: food sacrificed to idols, and one day being more holy than another. Those are disputable matters. But for him whose conscience is weak, if he violates his conscience and eats food sacrificed to idols, he is not acting in faith. And anything not done in faith is sin. That has been my experience regarding masturbation: I have a weak conscience on it. I know there is no explicit prohibition against it in Scripture. But my conscience feels violated any time I indulge in it. Therefore, for me, (not for others) it is a sin.

Perhaps that view may change over time as I continue this process. But for now, that is the standard to which I must adhere.

Again, thanks for the support and discussion here.

Love and peace,
Jason

scott snedeker

04-05-2008, 08:52 AM

You are doing fabulously well, Jason! Rome wasn't built in a day! Each level of self discovery should be enjoyed and savored! Not rushed through in attainment of some goal.

Give yourself a big smile! :D A smile for the periods of peace and love from others and from yourself you have experienced recently. A smile for the wonderful feelings and experiences that your self-discovery is going to bring you in the days to come! :):):):):)

capeguy74

04-05-2008, 11:28 AM

I am facing a difficult, heartbreaking situation in my spiritual life.

My church seems to have come up with an answer. No, you cannot be a gay Christian. When I e-mailed one of my best friends, who already knew of my struggles beforehand, that I was exploring the "gay Christian" angle for myself, he responded in a voice mail that he felt it necessary to bring it before the church on Sunday. In my church, that usually means a public disfellowshiping and "marking," warning church members not to associate with the one who is marked. All I wanted to do is go quietly, not cause any trouble. I have appealed to him that I am not trying to draw anyone away and that I will quietly go. But it's looking so far like it's going to be made public tomorrow, of course, while I'm not there.

Please pray for me. I have been a part of this church for almost 12 years. I have many near and dear friends in that church from four cities. Until two months ago, I was a tenor part-singer in front of the congregation on Sundays. I also used to do the church newsletter every week.

This really is breaking my heart. But I feel, at the same time, that God is leading me to a new path, at least at this time. Please, please pray for me. And I am open to any feedback anyone has.

Love in Christ,
Jason

Zerbie

04-05-2008, 11:58 AM

Dear Jason,

I gasped when I read your latest. Personally, I feel dismayed that your friend, to whom you went in confidence, is going to make a public fuss over this - especially given that you are currently undergoing a vulnerable time.

It *is* heartbreaking. This has been your community for so long. Jason, I am so sorry.

Perhaps now would be a good time to reach out to some supportive gay Christians in the 3 dimensional world. Research the affirming churches in your area. How about you send an email or make a phone call and ask to speak to someone at an affirming church. Perhaps you might even find someone who can take an hour to chat over coffee with you. That will get you started finding another community network of friends and people who will support you. What you will need is people who support you unconditionally as Jason, not because you're christian or because you're gay, but because you are Jason. People who will support you in your own process of discernment and love you wherever you end up. Not throw you away because you dared to think outside the proverbial box.

Regards masturbation, I was sad to read your feelings about that. Seems understandable. Our entire culture is permeated with shame messages about sexuality, especially about masturbation. It is such a natural function (fulfills a primal need) that animals do it too. In absence of a partner especially it fulfills a basic physical need. In addition, pleasure is not only a physical need, but a psychological one as well. The psyche too requires pleasure and release. I suggest you look at the issue analytically as Udog has suggested.

You have no reason to feel shame over your sexuality. I hope that someday it will become a source of pleasure and joy for you, in intimacy with a man you love who cherishes you for who you are.
:pray:

scott snedeker

04-05-2008, 12:02 PM

So He would actually use fear and control over his congregation so that they would not associate with you on a threat they might tell on each other? :confused::confused::rolleyes::eek:

That is sick and cowardly! :sick::sick::sick:

One thing that is apparent to me more than ever. This kind of emotionally dysfunctional organization needs to be avoided. What else are they doing?

It is definitely time to leave. :agree:

Ironically This could backfire with an exodus of the other non-cowardly members of the congregation who refuse to tolerate exposure to this type of bullcrap playground politics.:headbang::headbang:

They[Homophobes] don't know love. They have sense of personal inadequacy. They atttempt to feel less inadequate by dehumanizing gay people for gratification. A type of spiritual cannibalism to compensate for fear. Wretched indeed! Not Christ-like and taints the word "christian."
:sick::sick::sick:

You cannnot save them or help them, because you are following your peace, your joy and they have chosen not to accompany you. You are doing the right thing, Jason. The universe is conspiring to help you. Now that your awareness is developing, you will see evidence of this more and more! Fears and doubts will evaporate. Confidence love and effortless compassion will surprise you! You will feel wonder again! Your inner child will smile again! You will become irresistible to others because of how you shine with self-love. Besides, you are a handsome fella anyway.:D

Love, your brother,:love::love::love:

Scotty

matthewspeed

04-05-2008, 12:49 PM

Cape guy,

Just wanted to let you know that I can definitely identify with your current situation. I was heavily involved with the "Ex- Gay" ministries for years. I married a woman due to the influence of the ministry. I was married for 8 years. I spoke at various churches attempting to educate christians on how God can "heal" homosexuality. I even appeared on a national news television show. I went through counseling, prayer, I was even so-called "delivered" from "gay" demons. I was pretty far right on the subject. All the time, I struggled, cried at the alter, weeping and weeping. I know the pain. The pain never ceased.

I am a christian man who happens to be gay. Plain and simple. I am gay and Jesus Christ's blood still covers my sins. I am saved. Jesus is my Lord and Saviour. I still have my "conservative" views concerning the saving grace of Jesus Christ, but I am "liberal" in my understanding of Gods vast grace, love and acceptance of all His children regardless of color, race, creed, sexual orientation, financial status, or what ever! There is no Jew nor Greek, nor male, nor female for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Please stay with us on this forum. When others from your church attempt to pull you back in, remember one thing. Your spiritual journey did not end at the doors of your church. God is bigger than any church congregation. There is a whole world out there for you to discover -literally and mediphorically (spelling?) Take a risk.Trust God.

Please be aware that you will find that many of us here at Soulforce will agree on religous/political views and many of us will vastly disagree. But one thing you will find is acceptance. You can be real with all of us. You will find encouragement. You will find love. We will all encourage you to take that journey that God has for you. It seems that you are on the next step of your long journey. The step of liberation. Be liberated by the spirit of Christ. You are on your way to an awesome future!

scott snedeker

04-05-2008, 02:50 PM

John tells us that perfect love casts out all fear.

U-dog

u-Dog

I just love that! I think you could be called a Calvinist who embraces pagan spirituality!:D

Kris Johnson

04-05-2008, 03:17 PM

Jason, I am so sorry for the horrible situation you are in. I hope you can take comfort in the knowledge that Christ has already named you and claimed you and that you are deeply beloved by God who made you wonderfully gay.

Please know that you will be in my prayers as you continue your journey. As I write this I have just finished my sermon for tomorrow morning. The text for the day is from Luke - the two travelers on the road to Emmaus. How sadly ironic that the congregation that is treating you so badly cannot see the child of God that you are and the image of Christ reflected in you. May you continue your journey surrounded by the presence of Christ that is present in the members of this forum. You will see Jesus in their hearts words.

Kris

Daniel

04-05-2008, 06:12 PM

Well.....the reader can fill in the end of that title.

Jason- that's how I reacted to your post and the actions of your friend, who, I have no doubt whatsoever thinks he is doing the right thing. But in doing his thing, he is not only harming whatever friendship he has/had with you, but is being complicit in marking you as the 'other'. He might as well come and put a red X on your door. :'(

A nice little inquisition. That's what you have on your hands. And my heart grieves for you. There is sorrow in losing one's friends and associations- and one's church family- no matter how dysfunctional. It still hurts.

My friend. You are going through a really rough patch right now. I will pray for you and your well-being.

tymejumper

04-05-2008, 08:16 PM

Jason, I am sorry to hear of your friends betrayal of your confidence. I guess with friends like that you don't need enemies.(Daniel is right about that) It's not very christian to make you appear in church and confess"your sins" whatever the heck that is suppost to mean. There is NO sin for being gay, nor for doing what you were made by God to do, love anoter man. This is normal and natural. I believe that is says some where in the bible that God said "you are fearfully and wonderfully made." (I don't know a lot about the bible because I don't consider myself Christian, just a woman with great faith.)

It is true, you are, wonderfully made. There is nothing wrong with you, you have done or been nothing sinfull. You are innocent. The ones here who should be worrying, are your church cogregation, for condeming others of Gods creation by 'marking' them and refusing to have anything to do with other gay people. Your so called friend should be concerned for betraying you as I believe that is a sin, after all, Jesus was betrayed by a friend and you Reverand, or Pastor, if he passes judgement on one of Gods creations, is doing Gods job "judge not lest ye also be judged".

You have noting to fear. Have faith that God is leading you away from this congregation for a reason, it's part of his plan. It may not be really pleasant but God never shuts a door without opening a window, you just have to look for it.

God Bless and Much Metta,
Rebekah

tdogg

04-06-2008, 10:47 PM

Jason, do not accept someone else telling you that you can't be a gay Christian. Do not let anyone else take your faith or your Jesus away from you. They cannot. They do not have that power. They can kick you out of church, they can attempt to humiliate you and oppress you. But never let them take away your faith. It is YOURS. It is between you and your God.

Praying for you. This is such a difficult and sad time for you. Know you have friends here ok? Hopefully that will help. Pray a lot. I can't say this enough, don't allow them take away your faith. :love::pray::love:

capeguy74

04-07-2008, 09:59 AM

Hello dear friends,

Thank you so much for your continued love and support of me, someone you don't even know from Adam. :D I can't tell you how much I appreciate it.

Well, I haven't heard a word from my church as of today. I didn't go yesterday, nor do I plan to for the forseeable future. From the silence, I see one of two possibilities: 1) My friend decided not to go public with my situation. 2) He did go public, and the decision is total cut-off, complete silence.

I guess time will tell which course they have taken. Meanwhile I checked out another church yesterday. It didn't seem like a good fit. So I will keep "shopping" and asking God for guidance on where He wants me, which church will help me grow closer to Him and accept me as a gay Christian man who loves God.

Take care, and many blessings on all of you.

Your brother,
Jason