Pro-life or pro-choice?

[Jennifer5]

This topic was beginning to take over another thread, so I thought I'd start this and let you all just take over.... :)

[kara speltz]

This topic was beginning to take over another thread, so I thought I'd start this and let you all just take over.... :)

I describe myself as both pro-life AND pro-choice. I believe all life is sacred. And it saddens me when women are forced to decide to abort a child. But I don't believe that a soul enters the a fetus at the moment of conception. I've had 3 grand children aborted during the time my son was a young single man, and it broke my heart. But I still support the right of a woman to decide if she will carry a child to full term.

And I firmly believe that the government has NO RIGHT to take another persons life. So I oppose the death penalty and all war.

Just because someone is opposed to abortion, it seems to me, hardly makes them pro-life. Because most anti-abortionists I've known are also pro death penalty and to me that is hypocritical.

kara

[BruceChris]

And I otherwise agree pretty much with what Kara said.

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[BenL]

I believe firmly in the right of a woman to make decisions about her own body, including whether to become pregnant and whether to continue a pregnancy.

What I don't agree with is using abortion as birth control ... abortion to make up for irresponsible copulation. Like birth control itself, I don't think we can legislate these matters, besides making safe birth control and abortion available.

There's a huge gray area between those two positions. The particulars of one person's dilemma are sometimes known only by the person and God. I don't think I have a right to stand in judgment.

Some of the areas outside of this framework are pregnancy due to rape or incest, seriously damaged fetuses, the probability of severe genetic disorder etc. Decisions in these cases are similarly difficult to make. There are no easy answers.

[Jennifer5]

What I don't agree with is using abortion as birth control ... abortion to make up for irresponsible copulation. Like birth control itself, I don't think we can legislate these matters, besides making safe birth control and abortion available.

There's a huge gray area between those two positions. The particulars of one person's dilemma are sometimes known only by the person and God. I don't think I have a right to stand in judgment.
Definately an important point! I agree, it should be a last result, you have to be responsible about things to begin with.

Some of the areas outside of this framework are pregnancy due to rape or incest, seriously damaged fetuses, the probability of severe genetic disorder etc. Decisions in these cases are similarly difficult to make. There are no easy answers.
I wasn't even thinking this way... when we moved to WA in 2002 my mom was pregnant, he was downs syndrome, had heart problems and had like a 25% chance of living to be a year old. My mom was told by the doctors that she needed to consider aborting, my dad told her it was not a choice and that she was going to do the right thing and abort him. My mom however was faced with a very difficult dicision, she has always loved being a mother, she wanted 6 and has been pregnant about 13 times (a LOT or miscarriages)... I don't know what she would have done, I think she would've aborted but I don't know. She went into early labor and lost him at 5 months.

My brother's girlfriend's family deals with the same situation... but her mom was able to and did go through with the pregnancy. The boy is very disabled lives a good life I'm sure, but his older sisters are stressed with the burden of taking care of him for the rest of his life. They love him of course! But they had begged there mom to not go through with it... in their situation and ours, always needed to be a choice, knowing it was an option, it then needs to be up to the mothers.

They both had the option to abort... my brother's girlfriend lives her life as if it was her who has a child that she wasn't given the choice to abort and now has to figure out how to support. Her mother, made the choice to no abort. My mom, dealt with the opposite, she was forced to abort in a sense.

NO ONE should ever make these decisions for you! My mom began to tear up today as we went past the hospital where she lost Michael(that was his name) six years ago.:(

[matthewspeed]

I just have to say that even though I feel a woman has a right to her own body, an unborn child has a right to experience life. But when does it become a moral issue rather than a womans "right?"

I have an example to give. A few years ago, I was listening to a radio program on this very subject. A woman who was against abortion, shared her story on how she was an aborted baby. Her mother attempted to have the procedure done. Well, obviously it failed. She was aborted, but she survived the procedure. When she was speaking at a pro life rally, she shared her story about the attempted abortion and surviving it. A woman rallying for abortion confronted her and told her that she should not be alive today because her biological mother had the "right" to abort her. The pro choice crowed applauded that statement!

When I heard that, it sent chills up my spine. Thats when I truely realized that a womans right does not supercede (spelling?) the moral obligation to allow that human baby to have life. I am for our rights as GLBT people. I am for womens rights and for human rights. But I would be willing to put my rights aside for a higher calling. I would be willing to give children the right to life before I would be willing to demand my right to marry a member of the same sex. I am for gay rights 100%. But while we fight for our rights, unborn children are fighting for their lives. I have made it a goal to do what I can, as little as it may be, to protect unborn children. I will do what I can to fight for gay rights, but I have to choose the children first.

[Jennifer5]

I just have to say that even though I feel a woman has a right to her own body, an unborn child has a right to experience life. But when does it become a moral issue rather than a womans "right?"

I have an example to give. A few years ago, I was listening to a radio program on this very subject. A woman who was against abortion, shared her story on how she was an aborted baby. Her mother attempted to have the procedure done. Well, obviously it failed. She was aborted, but she survived the procedure. When she was speaking at a pro life rally, she shared her story about the attempted abortion and surviving it. A woman rallying for abortion confronted her and told her that she should not be alive today because her biological mother had the "right" to abort her. The pro choice crowed applauded that statement!

When I heard that, it sent chills up my spine. Thats when I truely realized that a womans right does not supercede (spelling?) the moral obligation to allow that human baby to have life. I am for our rights as GLBT people. I am for womens rights and for human rights. But I would be willing to put my rights aside for a higher calling. I would be willing to give children the right to life before I would be willing to demand my right to marry a member of the same sex. I am for gay rights 100%. But while we fight for our rights, unborn children are fighting for their lives. I have made it a goal to do what I can, as little as it may be, to protect unborn children. I will do what I can to fight for gay rights, but I have to choose the children first.

Is this a moral obligation or a law in your mind?

and...

So what do you suggest if a person does not want the child?

In my mind, if those who did not want children would stop having them, we would end up with kids that are much more loved and cared for and by extention would treat those others with love and respect. If parents don't want to be parents, they often aren't very good ones. When children don't have good parents they often end up causing others great pain and grief.

[Gregory_de_Bois]

Is this a moral obligation or a law in your mind?

and...

So what do you suggest if a person does not want the child?

In my mind, if those who did not want children would stop having them, we would end up with kids that are much more loved and cared for and by extention would treat those others with love and respect. If parents don't want to be parents, they often aren't very good ones. When children don't have good parents they often end up causing others great pain and grief.

I have to admit, I agree with Matt. This issue is SO much more complicated than it seems. There is definitely no black/white. I think that often abortion is forced upon many women because of our male-dominated society. It is really hard for women today to be pregnant in many employment positions or student positions.

As an individual and, more importantly, a Christian I feel called to speak out against abortion. However, I do not believe that we can legislate when life begins. I lean towards the safe, legal, rare, but I think we also need to limit it somehow. As I have not researched this issue enough, I cannot say when, but I am sure others are more knowledgeable about the issue (on both sides).

I really like the approach taken by Feminists for Life. I found their path compelling and encouraging. They recognize the grey area and strive to eliminate the infrastructures that force many women to have abortions (i.e. poverty, wage loss, employment opportunities, and student healthcare, among others). I am continually trying to have a consistent ethic of life, though, beginning in the womb and going to the grave. This means that I am generally opposed to abortion, the death penalty, war, and euthanasia (although I have mixed view for this as well). I might also add that I am a vegetarian for this same reason!:D I just LOVE animals :love::love::love::p

edit: I just realized I didn't answer your question. I really support adoption, I think it helps a lot of families both with unwanted children, and those who want but cannot have children biologically (gays, lesbians, and impaired). There are also many protections to prevent unwanted pregnancies.

[Alecto]

My brother once said "If you don't even have an oven, you don't really have much place criticizing how the buns are made". As such, I don't have particularly STRONG views either way. I very much like the way kara put it; it should probably remain legal, but it's not the option I'd prefer.

[matthewspeed]

Gregory de Bois,

Interesting... "Feminists for life." I would like to know more about them. I honestly have not heard of that group. Do you have more information on them?

You do make some very valid points by the way. Kara had made a comment that many pro life conservatives are for capital punishment. That seems to be hypocritical. I see that point. But I can turn that around to say that if anyone is against capital punishment and pro abortion -wouldn't that be hypocritical as well?

[TigerXero]

How about anti-dualism? Is that an option?

[tymejumper]

I am very Pro-Choice. I would not use it for birth control, and obiously have 3 children so I know a bit aboutchild birth. I would think that the Pro-Life(which annoys me, that word, everyone is for life, at least their own!:lol:)right agenda would want to focus on reducing the NEED for abortion by the following:

1) education about birthcontrol, masturbation and sexual education that is accurate and up to date, including same sex sex and STDs. You don't get pregnant if you use something, on the other hand you learn abstinence only, and you slip up, chances are you'll get pregnant.

2) Set up America the same way as Sweden. They have no question asked abortion up to birth, and the lowest rate of abortion world wide. Why? They have guaranteed healthcare for life of mother and child(cradle to grave) guaranteed housing, food and needs for raising a child, educational needs and also job guaranteed. They pay you to stay home for about the first 5 years of your childs life and you actually get to raise your child. If you want to work, they pay for child care and nannies.

3) Of course they pay higher taxes, but you don't need as much take home pay if your basic necesities are taken care of anyhow.

4)Find current homes, loving homes for the children that are already here. Don't let them linger in foster care becuase they have problems, or becuase they are too old. People say adoption is an option, but 95% of couples want newborns and there are not many of them.

5)confere with abortion rights activists and talk come up with some good solutions.

Until there is absolutely no child unwanted or unplanned or unloved and birth control is 100% reliable(we can send a man to the moon for heavens sake!) I will remain Pro-choice. I don't believe that any woman wants to undergo an abortion for the thrill of it, they do it becuase they feel they have NO choice. We need to reduce that feeling and abortions will follow suit.

[Pablo Rafael]

I believe that all people have rights, and the primary right is the right to be allowed the chance to live. Therefore I am unapologetically pro-life.

I am willing to make exceptions when rape, incest or the life of the mother are involved because I think that those situations are such a small part of the picture that they are distracting from the issue. What I can't see is abortion as birth control. Everyone is responsible for their own actions. (And I think men should bear responsibility as well as women.)

However, I don't think that passing anti-abortion legislation is the right approach. I don't think it will work in our society. I would like to see education, programs and approaches that help to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies. The "ignorance is bliss" philosophy that we in our society often have (especially in conservative Christian circles) to sex education doesn't work. Education and support is key. There is no need for unwanted pregnancies; there are ample methods avaliable to prevent that.

[matthewspeed]

Pablo and Tymejumper,
Both of you have exclellent points concerning education. It is essential. I, like Pablo, am unapologetically pro life. Life must be protected at all costs. However, the idea that abortion will one day be illegal is a far stretch - at least in our generation. But reducing the number of abortions is and should be a main goal for our society. If our government would offer better choices for women with unwanted pregnancies, I would be willing to pay higher taxes for this type of policy. Thats a lot for ME to say, due to the fact that I DESPISE more taxes, but this cause would be worth the extra money coming out of my pocket.

[shannon10]

I really appreciated what TymeJumper had to say. Few people realize that the pro-choice movement invests the far majority of its resources into prevention efforts aimed at improving women's access to birth control.

Also, I think that it's important to remember --- particularly for those of us on this website--- that this issue is deeply intertwined with gay rights and with heteronormativity.

Being pro-choice is about much more than abortion. It is about rejecting the damaging myth that all sex should occur only for procreation, and that all sex should occur within marriage. When anti-choice sex education classes preach the "abstinence-only" model, they completely leave out an entire group of Americans for whom marriage is not an option ... LGBTQ folks!

[Unmasked]

I used to be with the anti-choice crowd, I say anti-choice because I grew up in the Church of Christ, which is as evangelical and fundamentalist as you can get without being Southern Baptist. We supported the death penalty as being a just consequence for those horrible sinners. Recreational sex is regarded as a sin, which makes me stroke my chin a bit because my pastor's wife is barren. They adopted a boy that they raised well, but I still wonder why nobody ever objected to this union. I mean, isn't a woman just an incubating space for babies?

These days I'm pro-choice. I don't think the government should legislate morality, and I'd like the clergy to shut up about it. When some of these men raise a couple of kids alone and on minimum wage, I will be glad to hear what they've got to say about abortion. In the mean time, I'd really like them to tell their followers to lay off on the pipe bombs. They'll do anything for a fetus, but if it grows up to be a doctor, they might have to kill it. And those homosexuals as well. They're not hurting anybody, but we're pretty sure that they need to die too.

Remember, the haulocaust started with the commitee on Abortion and Homosexuals.

[Gregory_de_Bois]

I am very Pro-Choice. I would not use it for birth control, and obiously have 3 children so I know a bit aboutchild birth. I would think that the Pro-Life(which annoys me, that word, everyone is for life, at least their own!:lol:)right agenda would want to focus on reducing the NEED for abortion by the following:

1) education about birthcontrol, masturbation and sexual education that is accurate and up to date, including same sex sex and STDs. You don't get pregnant if you use something, on the other hand you learn abstinence only, and you slip up, chances are you'll get pregnant.

2) Set up America the same way as Sweden. They have no question asked abortion up to birth, and the lowest rate of abortion world wide. Why? They have guaranteed healthcare for life of mother and child(cradle to grave) guaranteed housing, food and needs for raising a child, educational needs and also job guaranteed. They pay you to stay home for about the first 5 years of your childs life and you actually get to raise your child. If you want to work, they pay for child care and nannies.

3) Of course they pay higher taxes, but you don't need as much take home pay if your basic necesities are taken care of anyhow.

4)Find current homes, loving homes for the children that are already here. Don't let them linger in foster care becuase they have problems, or becuase they are too old. People say adoption is an option, but 95% of couples want newborns and there are not many of them.

5)confere with abortion rights activists and talk come up with some good solutions.

Until there is absolutely no child unwanted or unplanned or unloved and birth control is 100% reliable(we can send a man to the moon for heavens sake!) I will remain Pro-choice. I don't believe that any woman wants to undergo an abortion for the thrill of it, they do it becuase they feel they have NO choice. We need to reduce that feeling and abortions will follow suit.
That is basically what Feminists for Life does. In fact, that could be taken right out of their website. :D I agree wholeheartedly. And, you're right, Pro-Life is a somewhat slanted term, as if the Pro-choice people are against life or something. Although, Pro-choice could also be seen as making the others seem negative. I don't know.

Pablo, I think you spoke my mind exactly. I don't think passing a bunch of anti-abortion legislation would help in our society. Abortion is here, and we have to deal with it as it is.

[sailaway58]

I served on a pregnancy care board for over five years. It was pro-life and so am I. The way I have dealt with it is because women have choice we offered support to those that choose life for their child, (soul or not). We have life skills training, food and pampers, car seats and all kinds of helps for those in need. We don't stop our support after the baby is born. It is always there for women no matter how old their children are.
We offer support and medical help, we pay for ultra sounds if they are needed.
My approach is less political and more ministry based.
Being a child raised in a minimum wage home is not the worst thing that could happen to you.
As far a pipe bombs and hate, that is a gross miss-characterization of those that are pro life. Any action of violence against clinics and or providers of abortion had always been publicly rebuked by pro life groups and churches.
That depiction of me because I am pro-life is as miss leading and offensive as reference to a gay life style is to most of us here.

January 2008
INCIDENCE OF ABORTION (http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html)

• Nearly half of pregnancies among American women are unintended, and four in 10 of these are terminated by abortion.[1] Twenty-two percent of all pregnancies (excluding miscarriages) end in abortion.[2]

• In 2005, 1.21 million abortions were performed, down from 1.31 million in 2000. From 1973 through 2005, more than 45 million legal abortions occurred.[2]

• Each year, about two out of every 100 women aged 15–44 have an abortion; 47% of them have had at least one previous abortion.[3]


• At least half of American women will experience an unintended pregnancy by age 45[4], and, at current rates, about one-third will have had an abortion.

[tymejumper]

I think it is sad that women even have to think of an abortion. On the other hand, it has been happening since the the start of time. Women have always gone to the village wise woman and asked for "menstrual starters" which were actual abortificants. Things about babies and menstration were considered "womens wisdom" and secret. Men were NOT allowed to have a say in it.

It is my personal opinion that the reason the witch trials and burnings started because of this. It started with the village wise women(considered witches) and was the attempt by males to take over womens bodies any way they could. They were upset they could dominate women with their strength, but still knew nothing about "womens secrets" of mentration and child birth. They were not welcome into that arena.

This is neither here nor there, but I still feel that men really have no business in womens reproductive choices. After all, I am the one that has the child in my body and have to suffer all the changes that go along with it. It's not really all that pleasant. A man does not, his part is over with the fertilization process.(I could make a few jokes about now! :lol:)

I respect Pro-life peoples opinions, and the fact they try to reduce the number of abortions, but if they want to make a law about it, based on their religious beliefs, then that is the wrong reason to do so, as not everyone is of their religion. The last time we mixed religion and politics, people got burned at the stake.

There is no cut and dried answer to this one folks. I know women who have abortions and are glad they did so, and I know women who are traumatized, but I think that is because people make them feel that way, not because they really think it was wrong for them. I have had clients, as I work in geriatrics, tell me horror stories about back street abortions they have had to have, or their mothers or sisters. I had one tell me how she used a coat hanger to perform her own abortion and bled for weeks and never could have kids afterwards. There are too many horror stories.

Abortion needs to be safe and legal, with no cohersion from anyone about this very personal decision. We need to focus on providing jobs, and health care for mom and child until 18 at least. We need to have social stops in place, that is what will make abortion rare, not laws based on our religious views. Abortion will happen, weather it is legal or not, and the loses will increase because women will die also. We need to come to some type of peace between the two sides of abortion for/against.

[tymejumper]

We don't stop our support after the baby is born. It is always there for women no matter how old their children are.
We offer support and medical help, we pay for ultra sounds if they are needed.


:love::love::love::love::love: What an awesome start!


As far a pipe bombs and hate, that is a gross miss-characterization of those that are pro life. Any action of violence against clinics and or providers of abortion had always been publicly rebuked by pro life groups and churches.
That depiction of me because I am pro-life is as miss leading and offensive as reference to a gay life style is to most of us here.


Exactly, it's not fair to tar you with the same bush of those extremests that actually do bomb and kill in 'lifes' name. We are not so far apart in our stances, we need another lable instead of pro-life and pro-choice.

[matthewspeed]

As a pro life man, I do not think I am out of sink with this subject just because I am a man. I was in a womens uterus at one time. And I am glad that my mother did not choose to abort me. I have a "choice" because I was born. I do believe that government needs to get involved. If it is a moral issue, which I believe it is, the government needs to mandate laws. We have laws for murderers, theives, rape,abuse, etc... If laws need to be enforced to stop abortions (exceptions would be to protect the life of the mother, or for incest), than I am all for it. I am sorry, but to allow abortions for birth control, is ridiculous. Life is precious at every level. And as the death penalty is concerned- Someone like a Hitler or a Sadaam should be allowed to kill thousands and millions and we should "preserve" their life? But we can "destroy" a fetus that is innocent? I don't understand the hypocracy in that thought.

[tpdncr4christ]

Thou shalt not kill.

That's what I think concerning abortion, war, capitol punishment, and murder. It's just something that we shouldn't do.

[kimmyd]

Haven't beenon here in ages, but have read so many interesting points here there's almost nothing left to say. Everyone has excellent reasons for what they believe in.


The only things I disagree with are the Capitol Punishment and war comments. But another thread.:rolleyes:

Myself, I am pro-choice. It would kill me to have my grandkid aborted, or have to have one myself for some terrible reason. But the bottom line for me is, a woman has to have the freedom to choose what is right for herself.

[Gregory_de_Bois]

I respect Pro-life peoples opinions, and the fact they try to reduce the number of abortions, but if they want to make a law about it, based on their religious beliefs, then that is the wrong reason to do so, as not everyone is of their religion. The last time we mixed religion and politics, people got burned at the stake

Exactly. I do not think I could legislate it because of what the Bible says. I would advise against it as much as possible. I would try and provide all of the resources I could from cradle to the grave. But I just don't think that banning it is going to do anything. I wish we could stop it, but I just have to be there for those women and know that I will never have to face that decision.

[hippie4lyfe]

I am pro-choice, while I don't like abortions I feel we must respect and honor the life of the living which is the mother and society.

[kimmyd]

And here's another thing: you ban abortion to satisfy the pro-lifers, all that will happen is that women go back to dark basements and garages to get what they want/need, risking their own lives in the process. Women and girls have been butchered in the past, due to any housewife, waitress, anyone needing an extra buck 'qualifying' themselves as surgeons. Much like banning alchohol, all banning does is make people look for a way around it. In the end a person will do what they want, no matter how it gets done.

[kimmyd]

PS: I'm really the only one on this site without a serious signiture, aren't I...:rolleyes:

[Unmasked]

I'm sure there are loads of silly signatures Kimmy. They just aren't weighing in.

One thing that I do want to make clear, is that my statements were extreme. I did not roll with a pipe-bombing crowd, but the Army of God, a Christian terrorist organization was semi-active in Lansing for a while, and a couple of student groups on MSU's campus support their efforts. They bomb abortion clinics because they are "pro-life", and gay bars for fun I guess. We've lost a lot of good people in the name of Christ.

People have two things to realize. These people are extremists who are condemned by the mainliners, yes. But we also need to realize that no matter what a "true" pro-lifer, or a "true" Christian does or would do, the actions that are taken in the name of Christ reflect the image of Christ. No matter how distorted and wicked those actions may be, this becomes the image of a Christian.

This is a womens' issue. The one thing that sickens me the most is people who oppose abortion on the grounds that it could have been them. "Former Embryo" and that sort of thing. I was once an embryo, and being alive is pretty cool, but if my mother had aborted me, I can't say I'd be too broken up about it. I would be dead, so I couldn't really complain, and if I could, I wouldn't. Life is precious, but contributing to the walking dead only hurts our planet and our society.

I would love to see far less abortions, none would be wonderful, but I also want to see people stop having babies. People have (and keep) babies that they did not plan, do not want, and can't really care for, because of misinformation and a lack of education. I would love to see the day where no unwanted pregnancies occur, but until then, there needs to be an option.

[matthewspeed]

I have to disagree with Unmasked that the extremists in the pro life movement or any other extremist actions within the Christian faith, cause a low image of Christianity. Just as prevelent as the extremists are, it is just as, if not more prevelent of the good that Christians have done in the past and in todays generation - enough to give the faith a very good name. Just as the Klu Klux Klan does not reflect the white race as a whole. We don't look at German Americans today and turn our noses at them because of what the German Nazis' did during World War II. I think people have more common sense then we give them credit for.

In saying that, I will say that a proclaiming christian does need live the faith - practice what he/she preaches. People are watching. When I was younger, I used to have a christian themed bumper sticker on my car. When I would get a little "road rage" in my blood, I realized it was not a very good witness! I either had to control my rage or get rid of the "jesus bumper sticker." I wasn't strong enough to cool down at that time in my life, so off went the bumper sticker!

Many times, we have been hurt by a certain group or religion and sometimes we carry that hurt with us throughout our lifetime. It is easy to stay angry and blame a particular religion or group instead of directing our justified anger directly to the people responsible.

[kimmyd]

I have to disagree with Unmasked that the extremists in the pro life movement or any other extremist actions within the Christian faith, cause a low image of Christianity. Just as prevelent as the extremists are, it is just as, if not more prevelent of the good that Christians have done in the past and in todays generation - enough to give the faith a very good name. Just as the Klu Klux Klan does not reflect the white race as a whole. We don't look at German Americans today and turn our noses at them because of what the German Nazis' did during World War II. I think people have more common sense then we give them credit for.

In saying that, I will say that a proclaiming christian does need live the faith - practice what he/she preaches. People are watching. When I was younger, I used to have a christian themed bumper sticker on my car. When I would get a little "road rage" in my blood, I realized it was not a very good witness! I either had to control my rage or get rid of the "jesus bumper sticker." I wasn't strong enough to cool down at that time in my life, so off went the bumper sticker!

Many times, we have been hurt by a certain group or religion and sometimes we carry that hurt with us throughout our lifetime. It is easy to stay angry and blame a particular religion or group instead of directing our justified anger directly to the people responsible.

I agree WITH unmasked, in that extremists do in fact give 'Christians' a very low image. They give themselves as people a low image yes, but also Christians. Remember, the squeaky wheel gets noticed, not the quiet ones.

[kimmyd]

I'm sure there are loads of silly signatures Kimmy. They just aren't weighing in.

One thing that I do want to make clear, is that my statements were extreme. I did not roll with a pipe-bombing crowd, but the Army of God, a Christian terrorist organization was semi-active in Lansing for a while, and a couple of student groups on MSU's campus support their efforts. They bomb abortion clinics because they are "pro-life", and gay bars for fun I guess. We've lost a lot of good people in the name of Christ.

People have two things to realize. These people are extremists who are condemned by the mainliners, yes. But we also need to realize that no matter what a "true" pro-lifer, or a "true" Christian does or would do, the actions that are taken in the name of Christ reflect the image of Christ. No matter how distorted and wicked those actions may be, this becomes the image of a Christian.

This is a womens' issue. The one thing that sickens me the most is people who oppose abortion on the grounds that it could have been them. "Former Embryo" and that sort of thing. I was once an embryo, and being alive is pretty cool, but if my mother had aborted me, I can't say I'd be too broken up about it. I would be dead, so I couldn't really complain, and if I could, I wouldn't. Life is precious, but contributing to the walking dead only hurts our planet and our society.

I would love to see far less abortions, none would be wonderful, but I also want to see people stop having babies. People have (and keep) babies that they did not plan, do not want, and can't really care for, because of misinformation and a lack of education. I would love to see the day where no unwanted pregnancies occur, but until then, there needs to be an option.

Unmasked i just read your prior comments, and thought they were right on target and very well-put. Your posts add tremendous value to this site. Don't change that, yourself, or back down from your beliefs.

[matthewspeed]

Ok, lets look at most of the U.S. hospitals. Most were formed by people of faith, including christians. Almost every major city in our country has Catholic, protestant, and Jewish hospitals.
Many of our better Universities were formed by Christian denominations - Notre Dame, Harvard, Yale, etc... If you were to study most of the churches in a given area across the U.S., you will find many outreaches focused on feeding the poor within the inner cities. Money is sent to many third world countries to feed the poor. Recently, my ex wife had to go to a local christian church for help. I live with my ex wife and her mother. My ex wife is in nursing school and takes care of her ailing mother. I live with them to help out. I am the only one bringing in an income, which barely pays for rent and all the bills. We had no choice but to ask for help. The government wont give us a dime because we are not considered poor enough. So who helped us?? A local christian church gave us a $100.00 gift card for a local super market. Another church in our area gives out $50.00 gift cards to help struggling families. We continue to receive free food from christian food pantries. These churches have never asked if we were christians or not. We were not bible beaten! It was unconditional. We needed help and help was given.

Also, most of your inner city soup kitchens are christian based. I could go on and on. But a group that calls themselves "christian", blows up an abortion clinic and now the whole christian faith should be in question?

Now, what if I was to say that the Muslim faith is hypocritical and most Muslims are not to be trusted due to the extremist terrorist actions within that faith? What if I said that most Muslims are terrorists and don't value human life? I would be considered, non-tolerant. I would be considered arrogant and a racist.

I have enough common sense to know that all Muslims are not terrorists! All followers of the Koran are not evil and do not promote hatred and violence. I do believe this, but I am SUPPOSED to say this as well, or I will be accused of being racist. However, is it ok to generalize christianity due to the actions of extremists that have blown up abortion clinics.

Lets look at the whole picture. When we look at something from one angle only, we don't see the value of the entire picture. It's like the blind men and the elephant parable. (forgive my extreme paraphrase!) Each blind men took his hand to feel the elephant. Each said to themselves, "Ah, this is exactly what an elephant is like." Well the problem is, that one blind man was feeling the trunk, another was feeling the tail, another a leg, and so on. Each was limited to what he could feel. They obviously could not see, so they had to really concentrate on their sense of touch. But unless each of those blind men would take the initiative and walk around the entire elephant and feel with there hands every part of that elephant, they would have a limited knowledge on the truth of what an elephant really is as a whole.

My prayer is that we would take the time to see the whole picture before we judge from seeing only one part. Extreme right wing fundamentalists do NOT represent Christianity as a whole. Extreme muslim terrorists do not represent the muslim faith as a whole.

[RedneckDyke]

The government should not force a woman to either have a child or to abort one. It should be up to her.

Maybe they should develop an injection to give to teenagers(boys and girls) so they are sterile from age 11 to age 21. I bet that would put a big ol' dent in the number of abortions.

[Unmasked]

The fundies opposed innoculation against HPV, they would march in the streets and demand that we legislate morality. If they had their way, pornography would be outlawed, JK Rowling would be burned at the stake, and I'm sure every last one of us would be stoned.

To give a rebuttal to what Matthew is saying, it doesn't matter what is, it only matters what people say is. People do not see Islam as a peaceful religion. I live near Dearborn, MI, which is home to one of the largest Islamic communities in the country. The call to prayer is broadcast five times daily, and Islamic people are regularly verbally abused by ordinary "Christian" people, because it is a widely held belief that Islamic people are violent, their religion is toxic, and their God is a demon.

If a door is blue, but everybody says it is red, even though the man who says it is blue is still thought a fool, because everybody else believes it is red. He is wrong not because he is incorrect, but because he does not agree. While you may speak the truth of what is, you do not seem to know what people say is. That will only make you seem ignorant and in denial.

[BeyondBlessed]

Some interesting statistics I heard the other day.

The Netherlands has the lowest abortion rate in the world, even though they have some pretty unrestrictive laws on the practice. They say this is because they started comprehensive sex-educations in the 1970s.

Uganda, where abortion is illegal and they teach abstinence-only education has an abortion rate twice that of the US.

[kimmyd]

The fundies opposed innoculation against HPV, they would march in the streets and demand that we legislate morality. If they had their way, pornography would be outlawed, JK Rowling would be burned at the stake, and I'm sure every last one of us would be stoned.

To give a rebuttal to what Matthew is saying, it doesn't matter what is, it only matters what people say is. People do not see Islam as a peaceful religion. I live near Dearborn, MI, which is home to one of the largest Islamic communities in the country. The call to prayer is broadcast five times daily, and Islamic people are regularly verbally abused by ordinary "Christian" people, because it is a widely held belief that Islamic people are violent, their religion is toxic, and their God is a demon.

If a door is blue, but everybody says it is red, even though the man who says it is blue is still thought a fool, because everybody else believes it is red. He is wrong not because he is incorrect, but because he does not agree. While you may speak the truth of what is, you do not seem to know what people say is. That will only make you seem ignorant and in denial.

GOD FORBID pornography be outlawed!:eek:

[kimmyd]

Some interesting statistics I heard the other day.

The Netherlands has the lowest abortion rate in the world, even though they have some pretty unrestrictive laws on the practice. They say this is because they started comprehensive sex-educations in the 1970s.

Uganda, where abortion is illegal and they teach abstinence-only education has an abortion rate twice that of the US.


See? And you know it's done in dark rooms with unstililized equipment, risking the women's life also.

[BeyondBlessed]

See? And you know it's done in dark rooms with unstililized equipment, risking the women's life also.

Yes, and the article I remember the statistic from also mentioned how women who were injured during the illegal procedures were denied treatment at hospitals.

[matthewspeed]

Unmasked,
I am from Detroit. I grew up in Dearborn Heights. I have friends in Dearborn who are muslim. I know all about the Middle Eastern community settling in Detroit. I had a cleaning business and had muslim families as my clients. I have eaten with them in their homes and restaurants. They are awsome people and I love them dearly. We disagree on our religion vastly. But we have respect for one another. That is how it should be. But unfortunately, that is not how the real world is. Not only are there christians that demonize Islam, but there are also many in the Islam faith that demonize christians and currently kill christians for their faith. I realize that in centuries past, many "christian" crusades were formed in Europe to kill non christians. Both religions have done their share of torture and killing. But in our current generation, we have extremists in the Islam religion murdering in the name of God.

Do you realize what the goal is for extremists in the Islam religion? To rid the world of those who oppose Allah. Those who are Christians are to be slaughtered, or any other religion other than Islam for that matter. This is the goal for extremists, not all those who follow Islam. Please understand me.

It is sad that we cant even say anything negative concerning extremists in the Islam faith without being branded as a racist. But it is alright to demonize chrisitians whether they be extremist or not. I will always defend my christian faith just as an Islam will defend their faith.

By the way, I emailed one of my friends from Dearborn heights the other day. He is appalled at his radical Islamic family in Iraq. He condemns their terrorist views. He is very upset that more muslims do not speak against the evils of these extremists.

So the next time we see a reason to demonize christians and blame them for being so intolerant and racist and whatever else you would like to blame them for, think about people in Iraq that are murdered for being christian or for being gay. Think about the thousands of people that are murdered every year by extremist Islamic terrorists.

As much as I have been hurt by christians, I have been blessed by many many more. More than I can count. I have food on my table because of christians. I have more money in my pocket because of christians. I have hope because of many christians that have influenced my life and gave of themselves to me.

[Pablo Rafael]

Good point, Matthew. Any movement or religion that refuses to respect the views of others is a hindrance to the work of God in the world. When a Christian seeks to spread hatred instead of love, he is working against the will of God. When a Muslim seeks to destroy another person for religious reasons, he is working against the will of God.

It is unfair to brand either Christianity or Islam as hateful or intolerant. There are some who attach themselves to those religions who do vast harm by preaching intolerance, exclusivity and hate. But I believe that both religions are at their core ones of peace and tolerance. Plus Islam, Judaism and Christianity all have the same roots and share many similarities. As a Christian I see it my duty to see that God's grace is shown to others. It is a message of love, respect and forgiveness. If I had Jewish and Muslim friends (both groups really scarce here in rural Colorado), I would expect the same from them.

[kimmyd]

Yes, and the article I remember the statistic from also mentioned how women who were injured during the illegal procedures were denied treatment at hospitals.

Oh my God. Because then of course the person who did it would have been arrested.

How tragic.

This is why I'm glad I live in a country where we can choose, despite who protests.

This reminds me of (and I don't even know the poor guy's fate!) a story I read a while back about some boy who was gay; his partner was hung in Iraq, and somehow the the guy was here in America, but was supposed to go back to Iraq and be executed. Reading it hurt so much I had to stop. That poor, poor man--to be killed for loving another man. And his partner--no matter what happens to him--has to live with the pain of his beloved dying for loving him.

[kimmyd]

[QUOTE=matthewspeed;54361]Unmasked,


Do you realize what the goal is for extremists in the Islam religion? To rid the world of those who oppose Allah.

That is right. And where the one bad apple theory comes in. Islam--and a lot of religions--are meant to be an example of peace and love, until people in it use it for their own agendas.

Like Bloody Mary; worship my way or die. And priests that abuse kids. And on and on.

It comes down to the people, not the religion.

[Unmasked]

Religion is easily exploited. Keep in mind that most Islamic terrorists are Shia, and Shia are seen as heretics by the Sunni. It is the Imams, the Priests, and the Rabbis who teach these men, making them "twice as fit for Hell".

No matter what is right or fair, some things just are.

Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.

[antiochian]

Obviously I will never be in a situation where I find myself desperate, alone and pregnant, so I can only imagine how scary that must be.

There was a time I was totally against abortion. My mind has gradually changed. There are cases in which there is just no other option. I will say that I hate to see it used as a way to escape responsibility for a night of irresponsible sex. There are these things called condoms!!

Everything in existence is sacred, whether alive or inanimate. And I feel to destroy a fetus because it's imperfect or unwanted for some other reason is no less a hate crime than blowing someone's head off for being lesbian, African, transgendered, etc.

But I respect the rights of women to protect their health and well-being.

[tpdncr4christ]

So I've been thinking about this, all week long, wondering where I really stand. It's much easier to say it's illegal, but then we do have to concern ourselves with all of the downsides of it being illegal. I think I take a more Ecclesiastese approach, there is a time and a purpose under heaven. I'd like to make it very clear that I do not like abortion, but, if it were on a ballot, I would vote in favor of legal safe limited abortions.

[Steven E. Webster]

Religion is easily exploited. Keep in mind that most Islamic terrorists are Shia, and Shia are seen as heretics by the Sunni.

Friend,
I'm sorry, but this seems a little too simplistic. Remember, all of the terrorists who carried out the 9-11 attack were Sunnis. Al-Qaeda and Osama Bin Laden are Sunnis and not Shias.

I think, like with alot of things, there are good and bad Sunnis and good and bad Shias, and good and bad Methodists and good and bad Pagans. We need to be careful not to condemn a whole group because of the crimes of a few.

Sorry, in advance, if I missed your point. I don't think it's accurate to say that "most Islamic terrorists are Shia."

Steven Webster

[matthewspeed]

Steven,

Thank you. My thoughts exactly. We cant demonize a whole group for the actions of a few within the group. Just as not all christians are extremists, not all those who profess to be Islam are terrorists. Many of those in the Islam faith are peaceful "sane" people.

-Matthew

[Sere-Kun]

I describe myself as being pro-choice. Not that I'm for abortion or anything. I can empathize certain situations in which the person might consider an abortion because their life is at risk. However, I think abortion is awful because it destroys life. A fetus is made up of cells (smallest unit of life!) and thus I believe the fetus is a living thing. However, I believe people should have the choice in the matter, as free-will is important. In short, I'm mostly on both sides of the fence.

[Cephus]

I know I don't post here much, but this is an issue that I feel I need to voice my opinion about. I am a Christian and as such I am pro-life. But. . . I am also a scientist and try to view everything from an analytical and logic perspective. So, removing my own religeous preconvictions, I've arranged an appology for my view. Each argument is given a number so that if a flaw is found in the logic of any statment, or a non sequitor is detected between any statments it can be addressed specifically.

1) A fetus is a lifeform seperate from its mother. It is not a tumor or growth or extension of the mother's body, it is whole inof itself, though undeveloped.

2) A fetus is genetically human.

3) If an individual lifeform is genetically human it is a person.

4) A fetus is a person (based on 1, 2 and 3).

5) Human life is sacred and should be preserved. Doing the contrary is wrong(note: this statement may contain moral presumption, and , as such, the remainder of the argument depends on whether or not you believe this statment to be true).

6) Judging another person as unworthy of life and killing that person is not preserving the sanctity of life.

7) Killing someone that has been judged to be unworthy of life is wrong (based on 5 and 6)

8) Killing someone posing an immediate threate to the life of self or others is protectiong the sanctity of life.

9) Killing someone to preserve the life of self or others is not wrong (based on 5 and 8).

10) A mother deciding to abort due to financial strain, emotional anguish or simple desire is judging the fetus ( a person based on 4) to be unworthy of life and killing it.

11) A mother deciding to abort due to financial strain, emotional anguish or simple desire is wrong (based on 7 and 10).

12) A mother deciding to abort due to complications threatening her life is seeking to preserve her own life.

13) A mother deciding to abort due to complications threatening her life is not wrong (based on 9 and 12).

Logical conclusion: If you believe life is sacrid and should be preserved then you do not support abortion unless the pregnancy threatens the life of the mother.

[andrewlittle]

I know I don't post here much, but this is an issue that I feel I need to voice my opinion about.
...
Logical conclusion: If you believe life is sacrid and should be preserved then you do not support abortion unless the pregnancy threatens the life of the mother.

Before responding I will state my social location. I am a white, straight, male ... oh, I should have put that first, shouldn't I?

I am a male, therefore I cannot even conceive of the emotional, physical and spiritual conundrums a woman would face in deciding whether or not to abort a fetus. I can study them, I can discuss them with others but, try as I might, I cannot fully understand the choices that make such a move a necessity for so many women. For me to judge another, based on thoughts and beliefs that can't include looking through that woman's eyes, would be to idolize my own beliefs and mental capacities, and to covertly maintain that I, as a man, have the right to extend my beliefs over a woman.

Logic is wonderful. But "ethics" is much more complicated. Logic is based on dichotomous statements. Ethics is baed on considering the subtleties and nuances of life and the choices presented. Logic is black and white - life and ethical choices are not. They are grey - may times murky, muddy shades of grey.

Your logic says abortion shouldn't occur unless the life of the mother is threatened. What does your logic say about what life is however. Does logic
tell you that life is the opposite of death? Life is not monolithic - life encompasses all of the experiences while we are living in this world. It defies logical argumentation - which only belongs in the laboratory.

[matthewspeed]

Life is life, whether it is separate from the mother or attatched. I am a male, but I know that life needs to be preserved. The fetus is a living human organism, thus it should be allowed to live and grow.

[matthewspeed]

Originally Posted by matthewspeed
Life is life, whether it is separate from the mother or attatched. I am a male, but I know that life needs to be preserved. The fetus is a living human organism, thus it should be allowed to live and grow.


Sorry Udog.

I should have explained myself more clearly. what I meant is that even though I am a male, I still have a voice on abortion issues. I don't see it as a womans right, rather as a right for the unborn. I am unashamed to say that I am on the pro-life side of the argument. I see this more as a right for the lives of the unborn, rather than a womans right, unless a womans life is at stake, or if a young girl has been molested or raped.

[andrewlittle]

Sorry Udog.

I should have explained myself more clearly. what I meant is that even though I am a male, I still have a voice on abortion issues. I don't see it as a womans right, rather as a right for the unborn. I am unashamed to say that I am on the pro-life side of the argument. I see this more as a right for the lives of the unborn, rather than a womans right, unless a womans life is at stake, or if a young girl has been molested or raped.

Dialogue is about exchanging idea and thoughts, and seeing of learning can occur. Never apologize for engaging in dialogue.

"Unless life is at stake" is a seemingly simple statement. But what is "life"?

The vast majority of the poor - really poor - are single mothers. Notice "single mothers", not the fathers of single mothers' children. Of these, the vast majority are women who had children at early ages.

What does this life of poverty look like? It looks like attrociously poor penatal care, to the extent that infant mortality is ten times higher than in the population in general. It looks like very poor or non existent health care going forward. It looks like suffering the indignation of using public assistance four times as much as others, using food pantries 8 times as much as others and living in squalid and dangerous surroundings because that's all that can be afforded.

Solve the social life problems of young, single mothers - to the extent that they can enjoy life like a young, single, non-supportive father can - and I might just start to understand your concerns.

In the meantime - you're male - you'll never ever be faced with the decisions facing a young, pregnant girl and what her life will look like going forward with any of hechoices she has to make. And statistically, 80% of the time, she won't see you for dust. Solve that one and you might just have a right to have an opinion about what she chooses in life.

It' way easier to judge choices than it is to change the injustices of life. Don't take the easy way.

[inca nitta]

I don't know how about others, but I certainly would not want to be aborted because I am glad that I am alive, and I am the one whose mother was young, poor, and single when I was born. During that time, my dad was not around. It's true that later he came back, but that's another story.

Also, I could never understand how aborting babies would be correlational to reducing poverty. To me, it's apples and oranges.

[ladyinred]

My view is I think we could try to reduce the number of abortions as possible within reason, I can't speak for someone else's choice or reasons. But with education about sex, the use of the birth control or condoms, I think it is a good idea to try to reduce abortions if they are unnessary and if other options are available and within reach. What I am talking about here is when a guy and a girl have sex and think along the lines of," Oh well, if I get pregnant I'll just have an abortion." Now c'mon." Use birth control or a condom, or do somthing else. Not that they are always fool proof, but at least they will reduce the chance to get pregnant significantly. But what If a person doesn't have a choice or is a situation where they may have to get an abortion? What if being raped or having serious medical problems that might have repurcussions to the mother, what about accidental pregnancies? There are alot of scenarios here, we cannot always know a person's situation and what may compell them to get an abortion. I heard on tv by this minister that many poor women opt for abortions because of living in poverty, so these are factors to consider as well. And if the govt(The religious right in power) is interfering by trying to teach abstinence only and have programs that are designed to keep knowledge out of the hands of people, or discouraging the use of condoms and other birth control devices.. that will cause alot of problems too. From what I read ,there are those at high levels appointed by president Bush in family planning that frown upon the use of contraceptives and other birth control devices and want to discourage it.

[tymejumper]

Life is life, whether it is separate from the mother or attatched. I am a male, but I know that life needs to be preserved. The fetus is a living human organism, thus it should be allowed to live and grow.



That logic could be used against male masturbation also. Semen contain life, sperm are life, tiny one celled life.( one half of a child) We then must preserve that also, all 50 million of them with each ejaculation. Therefore, sex must not take place unless it can result in the preservation of these lives. Condoms then would be sinful and as stated before, masturbation is mass murder of millions of lives, future lives.

On a different note, when does the rights of an unborn become greater than the rights of those already born? Does the mother who has 3 other children have the right to protect those already born children by aborting the unborn? If her pregnancy causes her to lose her job and she can not feed the 3 she already has,(and she knows this outcome) is it not the greater crime to continue a pregnancy and save 1 unborn and sacrifice the 3 born? Excuse me, that is 4 with the mother included. Just what does a woman have to sacrifice to preserve the so called 'sanctity of life'? What if she tests and finds out that her child will be so horribly handicapped that the child will have no quality of life, be severly mentally retarted and unable to progress past the stage of an 3 month old? What if she has children and must take time and effort away from them and they will suffer terribly for the birth of this other child? Is it ok to abort then? Again I ask does the life of the unborn have more rights than the ones that are already here?

[matthewspeed]

Tymejumper,

I find it interesting when people argue the fact that if the unborn child was handicapped or had any type of defect that would cause the child to not have a quality life, to abort, may be the "humane" thing to do. Hogwash! I find that extremely offensive, and this is why. I have a wonderful friend, Kristen, who is in a wheel chair with a devastating muscular disease which makes here "quality" of life less than, compared to the world around her. But,she is bright. She has a wonderful personality. She has a family that loves and adores her. She also has a spirit given to her from God. If her mother chose to abort her, we would not have had the opportunity to know her and be blessed by her. If that argument made sense, then maybe we should euthenize (spelling?) all handicapped people and all severly mentally retarded persons.

It is not up to you or I how a child enters in this world. It is up to God. He is the giver of life, not us. If a child comes out of a womb with no limbs, then that is unfortunately and sadly his/her condition that we will not be able to do anything to change it. But it is our job to love that person and accept and embrace that child as a child of God. You may say that there is no guarantee that that deformed child will have a good home and may be thrown aside. Well, many healthy "perfect" looking children are abused every day. Should we just abort all of them due to the fact that we live in an evil world and it would just be bad for them anyways?

I was the last of four kids born. My mom and dad were poor at that time. My dad owned a bar in a small town. They were struggling. Well, maybe my mother just should have aborted me. One less mouth to feed. Well, I am grateful to God that I was born and I have the "Choice" to live my life fully until God takes me home. I'm glad no else one chose that for me.

[marutidas]

While I do respect a woman's right to choose the future of an unborn child and very pro-choice myself, I do not like to see abortion as a means of birth control. In my opinion it is far better not to get pregnaunt that to have an abortion. I am not saying to don't have sex and you will never here say that, but it is very easy to prevent accidental pregnacey with a little forethought. Just some ways to prevent it such as,

The Birth Control pill, Plan B(which must be taken within 72hrs to be effective), The Diaphram, and The Condom to name a few. The condom being one of the best and cheapest, with a 98% success rate in preventing pregnauncy. (Ironic that pro-lifers seem to hate the idea of birth control.) As well as comprehensive Sex Education in school, to name a few.

But should abortion be eliminated, No.

As Andrew pointed out, the ethical part is very muddy grey. " Only if it endagers the mother's health" Leaves alot of distubing and troubling senerios that could take place. For instance, If the child to be born would be the product of rape or incest, but the fetus would not "endanger the mother's health", would you force her to have the child?

[matthewspeed]

Maritudas,

Even though you and I may disagree on many aspects concerning abortion, I agree with you concerning birth control. I am Catholic, and many Catholics are against any type of birth control. But that is where I disagree with the Catholic church. I am for birth control. I am for women making a responsible choice prior to becoming pregnant rather than having to make an awful choice on whether or not to abort her baby.

I also do not think a young girl who has been molested should be forced to keep her baby. If she has a the support of loved ones around her to help her through the birthing process and allow the baby to be given up for adoption, than that would be wonderful, but many in that situation do not have such support. Her life could be ruined for ever. So, I do see such circumstances as exceptions. I am just not for abortion to be used as a means of birth control.

Sex education is a must, but many churches refuse to allow this in their curriculum. While abstinence is being taught, which is a good thing, we can't be so ignorant to think that every christian girl/boy is not going to engage in sex. They need the tools and education to hopefully prevent unwanted pregnancies.

Again, just my thoughts.

[tymejumper]

Tymejumper,

I find it interesting when people argue the fact that if the unborn child was handicapped or had any type of defect that would cause the child to not have a quality life, to abort, may be the "humane" thing to do. Hogwash! I find that extremely offensive, and this is why. I have a wonderful friend, Kristen, who is in a wheel chair with a devastating muscular disease which makes here "quality" of life less than, compared to the world around her. But,she is bright. She has a wonderful personality. She has a family that loves and adores her.

Actually, you must have not read my post carefully. I stated that "if an unborn child would not progress further than a 6 month old"....I would say obviously that your friend has been able to 'progress past the 6 month old stage' so I fail to see how this would apply to my previous statement. She is obviously in control of her mind and is by your statement, 'bright'. I certainly in no way said "any handicapped individual" has no quality of life, indeed as an Occupational Therapist, it would be a foolish statement as that is what I do, teach handicapped individuals to lead active and full lives.

May I ask you a question? Have you ever had to day in and out take care of a 24 year old man/child that is only 6 months old and weights 160 pounds and is 6 foot tall? Who has to be changed every few hours, fed by a tube and can only look around and has to be moved so he does not get bed sores? Where the parents are now in there 50s and 60s and they can't move him or take care of him so he ends up in a nursing home on his back with whatever care the parents can afford, or not afford for him. Believe me, there are some pretty bad places to end up out there if you can't pay for decent care for your loved ones. Is this 'quality of life?' If you have not taken care of such a person, and I have, you have no idea what it is of which you speak.

It find it morally and ethically offensive that people invoke Gods name to support this type of life and torture for people. Also, not everyone is of the Christian faith and to force Christain laws and ideas on all is improper. God is way to big to fit into one box.

Certainly, many things can be done to help improve the quality of life for individuals, but also, God expects us to know when we can not help. You may say that God made us one way or the other way and we need to deal with that as it is the childs unfortunate circumstances. If this is truly your belief that God is the giver of life and that God decides all, why on Earth would you want to go to the doctor? The fact you are getting help to see better, infection, fix a genetic defect, or any other disease that your God chose to give you is also part of your unfortunate or fortunate lot and should not be treated. Of course there are some relgions that say you may not seek any type of help for your health issues and if that is your belief, fine.

To address your last comment about "my parents were struggling" I must say that I speak of abject poverty. Struggling is a whole world of difference than a parent having to say to their child "you don't get to eat until lunch, free lunch at school today and this is the only meal you get today becuase we can't afford it". I am speaking of desolate, homeless living in the street or will be living in the street with their already born children if they lose their job due to this new unplanned pregnancy. Struggle does not hurt a child, having no food, roof or safety does.

[tymejumper]

While I do respect a woman's right to choose the future of an unborn child and very pro-choice myself, I do not like to see abortion as a means of birth control. In my opinion it is far better not to get pregnaunt that to have an abortion. I am not saying to don't have sex and you will never here say that, but it is very easy to prevent accidental pregnacey with a little forethought. Just some ways to prevent it such as,

The Birth Control pill, Plan B(which must be taken within 72hrs to be effective), The Diaphram, and The Condom to name a few. The condom being one of the best and cheapest, with a 98% success rate in preventing pregnauncy. (Ironic that pro-lifers seem to hate the idea of birth control.) As well as comprehensive Sex Education in school, to name a few.

But should abortion be eliminated, No.


Excellent point, I do not believe that abortion should be used as an after thought to "oh well I made a mistake" and there are far to many grey areas to make a fast and hard law about it. As my previous post points out, there are many reasons for the woman to chose this route. I do not believe that women do this easily or without regret most of the time. I do not believe that women just think "an abortion, how much fun!" To prevent is the best option indeed.

[matthewspeed]

Tymejumper,

The situations you speak of are exceptions to the rule. There will always be the exceptions. I understand that. But you can't throw out the baby with the bath water. For every abortion performed due to devastating circumstances as you explained, there are hundreds of thousands performed simply for birth control measures. I understand that, but that is not an excuse to allow for abortions as a general rule. Abortions are too available, too easy. It is life we are talking about. We can look at poverty issues, but it is still human life. I know we are talking about "quality" of life, but that does not change the fact that life itself is valuable, regardless of being born into poverty or privelege.

We say "Well, the quality of life for that child born into poverty will be pretty low, so lets just abort." That is nonsense. Life has to go on. We can not play God that easily.

I apologize for not reading your thread clearly enough. I did not mean to accuse you of being cruel or of sounding judgemental. Please forgive me.

I will say this - I never would accuse a woman who had an abortion of being a murderer. Many right wing conservatives use that term. I have the utmost compassion for a woman having to face such a decision. My sister had an abortion at 17. She was having a difficult time in her life and in her case, she felt pressured. She never wanted to abort. I do believe that many woman would rather not abort. Education and compassion is the tool, but unfortunately, that is lacking within the religious community for the most part.

In my early years of activism, I was one of those that blocked abortion clinics. I was spit on and had rocks thrown on me by pro-choice activists. I was WRONG. I, now, understand the resentment of those pro-choice activists. I, along with the rest of my peers in the movement, created a monster. We possibly caused more harm than good. While we were silent and stubborn, many woman needed our compassion and support. If we would have been more compassionate,and supportive to these women, we could have reduced the number of abortions.

[tymejumper]

Mathew,

Thank you for the apology. I did not want anyone to think that I advocate just finding out and aborting because the baby is not perfect. That is inexcusable to use abortion as a convienent reason to get rid of 'less than perfect' humans.

Unfortunately, we can and do find out things that previous humans could not find out and had to judge at the time of birth. For example, the Vikings and other cultures had to have a male elder or the husband accept the child after looking it over. If they found a defect, they put the child out for the wild animals to keep birth defects at a minimum and ensure the strong survive.

We have so much knowledge, and I hate to quote it, but as Spidermans uncle said in the movie "with great power comes great responsibility". Our medical knowledge has proceeded at such a rate that we have ability to save babies and people,(much power) but not much responsibility of how to use it. We sometimes save humans that are so damaged that they suffer terribly for all our good intentions. We are reluctant to say "enough, this is not appropriate". I hope our ethics and morality catch up with this.

I think you have learned a great deal about abortion by making the choice to block clinics. You realized that it is not the best way to help, which strikes me as what you were trying to do.(help) Unfortunately, throwing rocks at people was not the best choice others made either. I am glad you are not part of this fringe crazed anti-abortion group any longer. It was actually not to long ago that I recieved a letter, and pictures of these so called aborted babies. I suppose if I were not a medical person I might have actually been convinced that they were true pictures. Also, I found it amusing that they got my address, but they failed to provide theirs. This told me all I needed to know about the Right to Life movement.

I am so sorry that your sister felt she had to abort, no woman anywhere should have to feel that. It should never be the first thing on a womans mind, unfortunately, it often is and that's really sad. Every child has the right to be wanted, even if its not perfect or exactly planned for at that time.

[matthewspeed]

Tymejumper,

Thank you for your response. One thing we all have in common on this forum, is that we value human life and want human rights for every individual. We may all approach this in different ways with different philosophies, but we all desire the same thing. I realize that none of us want violence. None of us wants the human race to be void of freedom. That is what Jesus taught - freedom, truth, and the power to truely love our fellow Man/Womankind.

Even though I am passionate about my beliefs, I have changed my mind on certain issues in the past, because I choose to have ears to hear. I have been challenged on many occasions. I have had to humble myself and re think about many issues. That is why I like this forum. I have grown as an individual since being a member of Soulforce.

Thank you again Tymejumper!! :)

[Depdem]

Condoms are cheaper than abortion.

[kara speltz]

Condoms are cheaper than abortion.

Yes, they are and it is the whole stance on birth control that the Catholic church teaches that I personally believe is sinful. However, I really have to say something here. It always amazes me when people suggest that women use abortion as birth control. I have never in my 71 years met a woman who treated abortion as birth control. I have never met a woman who didn't struggle over the issue of abortion. It seems to me, that the folks who keep suggesting this are for the most part men, not women.

I think it's truly a bogus issue. My bet would be that perhaps less than 10% of women consider abortion a subsitute for birth control. And I have to admit that I get really tired and a bit pissy when that gets put out there as if it's the standard.

kara

[tymejumper]

It seems to me, that the folks who keep suggesting this are for the most part men, not women.



:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
It also seems as if those same people are working very hard to make it illegal! It is hard for a man to understand what it's like to feel you are a prisoner to rules and laws about your body. They have no clue. They can get insurance to pay for Viagra so they can 'get it up' but we can't get them to pay for the pill or Depro shot so we don't get pregnant while they are 'getting it up'.

I too have heard many terrible stories about abortion, especially from my clients who are geriatric. They remember before it was legal what the back alleys were and all about coat hangers. I had one lady tell me all about the way she took a coat hanger and aborted herself so she could escape with her daughter from an abusive marriage. Was she regretfull? Certainly, she had no choice. She became barrain and infected, almost dying from the procedure.

I do completely agree with you that women don't go around and say that "if I get pregnant I'll just abort" like its a picnic. Some women are traumitized, some are just plain relieved afterwards. The cohesive factor is that they had to make that decision, they had no choice. I also find that people look at me strangely when I say women don't go around all happy and just abort for no apparent reason. I think that myth is perpetuated by the same christian right that perpetuates myths about gay people!

[kara speltz]

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
It also seems as if those same people are working very hard to make it illegal! It is hard for a man to understand what it's like to feel you are a prisoner to rules and laws about your body. They have no clue. They can get insurance to pay for Viagra so they can 'get it up' but we can't get them to pay for the pill or Depro shot so we don't get pregnant while they are 'getting it up'.

I too have heard many terrible stories about abortion, especially from my clients who are geriatric. They remember before it was legal what the back alleys were and all about coat hangers. I had one lady tell me all about the way she took a coat hanger and aborted herself so she could escape with her daughter from an abusive marriage. Was she regretfull? Certainly, she had no choice. She became barrain and infected, almost dying from the procedure.

I do completely agree with you that women don't go around and say that "if I get pregnant I'll just abort" like its a picnic. Some women are traumitized, some are just plain relieved afterwards. The cohesive factor is that they had to make that decision, they had no choice. I also find that people look at me strangely when I say women don't go around all happy and just abort for no apparent reason. I think that myth is perpetuated by the same christian right that perpetuates myths about gay people!

I'd bet on it! As I said, I've never met a woman who thought that, but I can remember some 35 years ago living in a commune where the women brought up buying condoms in bulk out of our house common fund, and one of our younger male members objecting saying that he didn't like condoms and if someone got pregnant they could always have an abortion.

The women in that commune came close to killing that idiot they were so outraged. kara

[paul]

Hey Kara,

You didn't happen to live at Twin Oaks did you?

paul

[kara speltz]

Hey Kara,

You didn't happen to live at Twin Oaks did you?

paul

No, but I did visit there once decades ago. Our commune was in Boston.

kara

[pnggrad79]

Fundamentally, I am pro life, however, I don't feel I have the right to assert my opinion onto another woman faced with a pregnancy that isn't right for her or was a "mistake". It is her body, her mind, her life and she needs to have the right to decide what is right for her in her situation. Like so many of you, it would not be an issue for me, but then again, I have two lovely girls, and am not physically able to have any more children, so it will never be an issue for me. But I am not so arrogant to push my beliefs and what I would do onto someone else, because it isn't me, it's them.

I would say that personally I am pro life, but politically pro choice. Does that make sense?

[paul]

I think the debate between "pro-choice" and "pro-life" is completely mis-focused.

I think few if any, on either side of the fence, would consider abortion the best choice for an unwanted pregnancy. Clearly, the solution lies at the point of conception. I think the issue is mis-focused on women. To do so kind of reminds me of something I read in a book recently ("Infidel" by Ayann Ali) where she retells an incident where a man is actually angry at his wife for getting pregnant.

After picking my jaw up off the ground, stepping back and looking, here's what I think. We must realize that we have lived and still live in a largely patriarchal, male dominated, sexist society that effects many areas of our lives and attitudes, and this issue in particular. When I approach the topic of abortion from that premiss, here's where I land, fairly easily. The onus and responsibility for preventing conception should mostly, if not completely, rest on the shoulders of the man. My reasoning is that, since the male has no enforced responsibility for a pregnancy once it occurs, that the woman is left holding the proverbial bag, it seems to me in the interest of balance and fairness that the prevention of conception (when that is what is desired) should rest squarely on the man.

I think if society took the approach of making laws against unwanted conception, that were focused on holding men fully responsible, instead of after the fact laws against abortion, that abortion would almost cease to be an issue.

[paul]

Does it strike anyone else as ironic that a bunch of GLBT people are debating the topic of abortion??

[matthewspeed]

I don't think it is that ironic for GLBT persons to discuss the pro-life, pro-choice issue. Whether we are straight or gay or transgendered, we all have our own set of values that shape our lives. There is a thought that just because one is GLBT, he/she has to be liberal minded across the board. That is a narrow minded attitude, in my opinion. Many think that if you are gay, you automatically vote democratic, and are liberal on every social issue.

Take the black community,for instance. Most of my interactions with Black christians that are against abortion, still vote democratic. You would think that if they agree with caucasion conservatives on just about every issue, they would join the Republican party. But that is not the case. I also know of other straight conservatives that beleive abortion is totally a right of choice and the government should not get involved in any level. It's easy to lump a group into a certain category.

I have been on the dating scene recently. ( I have ceased from that search for the moment- too exhausting- but that's another topic!!) I have been surprised to find that many of the men I have gone on dates with, are conservative on the abortion topic. Very surprising. But some of the men I have talked to, are afraid to admit that, thinking they will be ostricized (spelling?) for taking the conservative pro-life stance within the gay community.

I refuse to be a puppet. I have my own values and opinions and am not ashamed of them. I can't allow my values to be compromised by peer pressure. If I am the only gay man in the neighborhood that has a conservative stance on abortion, than so be it. We can't give in to our beliefs just because the majority of our peers feel differently. I want to believe that I have enough integrity to stand on what I believe even if it is not popular.

In saying all this. I respect all opinions and I weigh them all. I am a good listener. Excellent points are given on all aspects of this discussion. I do have compassion for women who have to face this difficult choice. And I don't claim to be an expert in all of lifes issues. As a gay man and just a man in general, I am still growing and learning. It's just at this stage of the game, I feel strongly about this and other issues. I can take criticism for my stance. I'm a big boy.

[marutidas]

If have made that an abortion, whatever the event preceding it were just a on the spot choice, I am sorry. I can truely understand the gravity of such a choice. I am also sorry about my insensativity, in "Making abortion sound like it was an easy choice."

The point I was trying to make was that not only is the church against abortion, but also against birth control and safe sex. Because of the teaching of abstanence only programs in the south, not only that they are flat out lying about the condom. Saying that it has only a 50/50 chance of preventing prenauncy and std's. So teenagers when the feel the urge to have sex, the will more likely not use one and the increased likelyhood of an unwanted pregnauncy. I am about one of the biggest supporters of the condom you ever meet. Becuase of my involvement with Mpower, I feel so irratated at the just absolute ignorance that is taught to these kids about sex.

Matthewspeed: There are to many of the exceptions in the way of abolishing abortion. As many of us has pointed out the numerous reasons that abortion is neccasary. It has kind of boiled down to, "if you don't want an abortion, don't have one." As it goes if you and yours are against abortion then thats fine and dandy, don't have one, just let other people make their own choice for whats best for them and keep you nose out of it. Stop trying to meddle in other peoples affairs. As Men, you and I, we could never hope to understand the complexity of thought and emotion that goes through a woman's mind when she has to make this kind of choice. I am just glad to lend my strength and support for whatever she feels is right FOR HER, NOT FOR YOU OR THE CHURCH.




MD~:flower:

[NathanATX]

I believe that abortion should be safe, legal and rare.

It would probably be a heartbreaking choice to make, but I believe women have the right to make that choice.

To decrease the rate of abortions, people on all sides of this issue are going to have to rethink our values and strategies.

We can't create a culture of poverty that a woman feels trapped in because of our anti-family social welfare policies, lack of access to education, family-unfriendly companies, etc, and then attack the woman for not wanting to bring a new life into that difficult world.

We also have to confront our societal sexual values. Our economy thrives on selling sex, i.e. primarily selling women as sexual objects. We don't value women. Our young men don't value women. Our young women don't value themselves.

I really get the heart of the pro-life movement, but that same crowd is oppossed to providing meaningful sex education, contraceptives, etc. I believe these well-meaning people have become pawns of political power brokers, instead of being effective agents of societal change.

For me, this is about integrity. If we say we want to reduce the number of abortions, then we need to do everything in our power to address the factors that leave women contemplating that choice.

[andrewlittle]

Does it strike anyone else as ironic that a bunch of GLBT people are debating the topic of abortion??

[QUOTE=matthewspeed;55901]I don't think it is that ironic for GLBT persons to discuss the pro-life, pro-choice issue. Whether we are straight or gay or transgendered, we all have our own set of values that shape our lives. There is a thought that just because one is GLBT, he/she has to be liberal minded across the board. That is a narrow minded attitude, in my opinion. Many think that if you are gay, you automatically vote democratic, and are liberal on every social issue... [QUOTE]

The irony being referred to, Matthew, unless I'm sorely mistaken is that GLBT folk, once out, are rarely in the baby-making business. I think it was an effort at humor - of course, humor only works when the audience is receptive.

Then again, for reasons already stated, I tend not to get my knickers in a wad over choices I'm not going to have to make. Maybe that's why I could see the humor.

[NathanATX]

[quote=matthewspeed;55901]I don't think it is that ironic for GLBT persons to discuss the pro-life, pro-choice issue. Whether we are straight or gay or transgendered, we all have our own set of values that shape our lives. There is a thought that just because one is GLBT, he/she has to be liberal minded across the board. That is a narrow minded attitude, in my opinion. Many think that if you are gay, you automatically vote democratic, and are liberal on every social issue... [quote]

The irony being referred to, Matthew, unless I'm sorely mistaken is that GLBT folk, once out, are rarely in the baby-making business. I think it was an effort at humor - of course, humor only works when the audience is receptive.

Then again, for reasons already stated, I tend not to get my knickers in a wad over choices I'm not going to have to make. Maybe that's why I could see the humor.

I also think this is "ironic" because the right-wing rhetoric machine paints us as self-absorbed, narcissistic, etc., people who wouldn't care about issues that are important to other people.

The more our community speaks out on the issues affecting our neighbors, the more our neighbors will speak out for us...

... and that whole Beloved Community thing just starts to happen. :)

[paul]

Thanks Andy and Nathan and Matthew for your responses.

Matthew, Andy and Nathan got it... my really profound observations that were supposed to evoke response were posted in the "wrong focus" thread, which no one commented on :lol::lol:.

paul

[andrewlittle]

I think the debate between "pro-choice" and "pro-life" is completely mis-focused.

I think few if any, on either side of the fence, would consider abortion the best choice for an unwanted pregnancy. Clearly, the solution lies at the point of conception. I think the issue is mis-focused on women. To do so kind of reminds me of something I read in a book recently ("Infidel" by Ayann Ali) where she retells an incident where a man is actually angry at his wife for getting pregnant.

After picking my jaw up off the ground, stepping back and looking, here's what I think. We must realize that we have lived and still live in a largely patriarchal, male dominated, sexist society that effects many areas of our lives and attitudes, and this issue in particular. When I approach the topic of abortion from that premiss, here's where I land, fairly easily. The onus and responsibility for preventing conception should mostly, if not completely, rest on the shoulders of the man. My reasoning is that, since the male has no enforced responsibility for a pregnancy once it occurs, that the woman is left holding the proverbial bag, it seems to me in the interest of balance and fairness that the prevention of conception (when that is what is desired) should rest squarely on the man.

I think if society took the approach of making laws against unwanted conception, that were focused on holding men fully responsible, instead of after the fact laws against abortion, that abortion would almost cease to be an issue.

The reason I didn't post on this was that I couldn't have said it better myself. But, just to bring it back to the top ofthe listing, or bottom I guess, I will state my thorough approval.

[Daniel]

One wonders why men- whether they are straight or gay- simply refuse to wear a condom. Whether it is preventing a pregnancy of preventing transmitting HIV, the end result is the same: one has to be mindful where and how one is putting- excuse my French- one's Dick.

I could not agree more: the onus should be placed on the man. That really would change things mighty quick. But getting men to agree to this? That's asking a lot. Don't take away my manhood!

Andy- I just read an article about gay men and children. More and more are having children. And as we are able to marry, I believe this will only increase.

[matthewspeed]

This is an excellent topic.

There are so many thoughts surrounding this issue. I agree that the right winged sect has a way of demonizing people instead of providing solutions. Better sex education is essential. When people don't know their options, they make choices that perhaps they would not have made if they had the prior knowlege. It is like Nancy Reagans "Just say no" to drugs campaign back in the 80s'. Her heart was in the right place, but when young people are faced with the temptation to do drugs, they need education, support, and resources, not "pat answers."

My heart goes out to every woman who is faced with the choice of abortion. As I am looking out for the interest of the unborn child, I never stop thinking about the difficult situation for the pregnant woman. Of course I could never put myself in her shoes. It has been such a tug-of-war for me. I am wanting the child to have the right to life, and at the same time, I well up with compassion for the mother.

I guess I will have a lot of questions to ask God when I meet him face to face.

[inca nitta]

Matt,

I think that you sound like a good Christian. Your demonstration of compassion towards women struggling about abortion, while at the same time, defending the rights of unborn children to live, is commendable.

I wish I alwasy knew how to speak truth with LOVE.

Peace to you.