My Conservative Father Made a Good Point

[Tinkerbell047]

My father (who is 72) is a conservative, Nondenominational, Republican ordained minister. I am his 18-year-old,"not straight," socially liberal daughter. We tend to butt heads quite frequently, especially on the issues regarding the GLBT community.

The other night, my father received an email from his sister about a Pride Parade in her home town, and how disgusted she was by it. My father made me read said email. I was disgusted by the hatred that she had put into the letter, and the obvious gay bashing that she was doing. I finished reading the email, and said nothing. My father sat down in his chair and asked me what I thought. I decided against responding. It was then that he said something profound, and something that made sense to me. He looked at me, and, though not in the kindest tone of voice, he said, "people don't want to be forced to see it. They don't want to know about another couples sex lives. We don't want someone else's intimate life forced upon us. If the gays would explain their points, make their arguments without the Pride Parades, and Pride Weekends, and rainbow days at ball parks, maybe people would be more willing to listen to them."

Maybe my father has a point in this. The GLBT community says that we don't want "special" treatment, but that we want "equal" treatment. But, maybe, just maybe, in some cases we try so hard to fine equality that we force closed the eyes of some people. Many of the men and women I know don't so much have a problem with the gay community, as the way the gay community goes about its business and are so turned off by the way we try to reach our issues that they don't want to stick around to hear the rest.

I'm only 18, and I'm still in high school. I will freely admit that I don't know much about the "real world," but, maybe my dad's point is a valid one. We all know that when the Right does and says things that are over the top we don't always stop to hear their points, maybe we should go about our demonstrations in a way that is more open and straight-friendly, maybe if we made our arguments in a more, for lack of a better term, conservative manner the Conservative people would be more willing to listen to us.

With love and blessings,
-Tink

[scott snedeker]

My father (who is 72) is a conservative, Nondenominational, Republican ordained minister. I am his 18-year-old,"not straight," socially liberal daughter. We tend to butt heads quite frequently, especially on the issues regarding the GLBT community.

The other night, my father received an email from his sister about a Pride Parade in her home town, and how disgusted she was by it. My father made me read said email. I was disgusted by the hatred that she had put into the letter, and the obvious gay bashing that she was doing. I finished reading the email, and said nothing. My father sat down in his chair and asked me what I thought. I decided against responding. It was then that he said something profound, and something that made sense to me. He looked at me, and, though not in the kindest tone of voice, he said, "people don't want to be forced to see it. They don't want to know about another couples sex lives. We don't want someone else's black skin forced upon us. If the negros would explain their points, make their arguments without the Pride Parades, and Pride Weekends, and Martin luther King holidays at ball parks, maybe people would be more willing to listen to them."

Maybe my father has a point in this. The Black community says that we don't want "special" treatment, but that we want "equal" treatment. But, maybe, just maybe, in some cases we try so hard to fine equality that we force closed the eyes of some people. Many of the men and women I know don't so much have a problem with the black community, as the way the black community goes about its business and are so turned off by the way we try to reach our issues that they don't want to stick around to hear the rest.

I'm only 18, and I'm still in high school. I will freely admit that I don't know much about the "real world," but, maybe my dad's point is a valid one. We all know that when the Right does and says things that are over the top we don't always stop to hear their points, maybe we should go about our demonstrations in a way that is more open and straight-friendly, maybe if we made our arguments in a more, for lack of a better term, conservative manner the Conservative people would be more willing to listen to us.

With love and blessings,
-Tink

Try reading this argument by substituting another minority in place of gay(as I did in red) and see what it reads like. Now imagine reading your father's response to his black daughter.

In the state of Florida that would be legally defined as domestic violence.

It is only his homophobia (against which he is struggling for your sake I'm sure) that blinds him to what he is saying. I would ask him as an intellectual exercise to do so and see if he has an illumination. :eek:

Pride days are mostly for us. We need to feel empowered from time to time as compensation for the oppression that we endure every day.

Others can either see the goodness of it, or they can look at it with disgust and anger. It is up to them. It is not my responsibilty to prevent their disappointment or hate or disgust. (Previously I believed it was because my self esteem was lower than a putrid cockroach)

[OtterXero]

Plus, he's making the assumption that all the couples are sexually active, which isn't always the case, especially since not even all gay men in relationship engage in anal sex, which I'm sure is the one thing he's certainly invisioning. In the same way, though, going with your dad's point, you could argue you don't want to see heterosexual holding hands and imagining their sex lives. But you don't do that, do you? No, and it's probably because sex isn't equated so much with heterosexuality as it is homosexuality, at least in your dad's case. I know my dad has made similar comments about forcing people to make a decision when they gay couples, but I disagree. They need to learn not to think sex, omg!, everytime they see a same-gender loving couple. (^_~ @ Scotty.) Oh, and yes, Scotty did have a very good point, one I've made with my dad, although specifically about interacial couples as that was illegal in parts of the U.S. until the beginning of the 70s (a time he lived through), reinforced by religious and cultural beliefs, etc. and how people don't consider that wrong now nor does my dad, but that wasn ot the case when he was born. I think I actually got to him with that point. We have to be visible to get the point where people are just used to it. (Mind you, I'm not talking about pride parades, but just holding my boyfriends hand in public.)

A very insightful and wise post by you, though. We're just attacking your dad's argument, not you ^_^.

[OtterXero]

AHHH! I didn't realize that was you, Tink. How in the world did I make that mistake. Well... now you know how I would talk to you informally online if I just met you ^_^.

[scott snedeker]

Hi Tink,

I think the really important point has already been made above by Scotty. Your dad and aunt have the belief that it is somehow OUR responsibility to protect them from seeing and thinking about things that make them uncomfortable and that because homosexuality makes them uncomfortable that it is our responsibility to remain invisible. It is not.

I don't like to think about over-weight people having sex or really old people having sex. I'm glad they do and I'm glad it makes them happy! I just don't like to picture it. So I don't. It's that easy!

Pride parades are well publicized in advance and highly localized. They are unlikely to be surprised by a sudden and spontaneous pride parade going down their street. Televisions have on/off switches and volume controls so watching the evening news isn't required. If your aunt is watching and being disgusted by pride parades its a pretty good bet that its because she WANTS TO. Think about it. there are few feelings as satisfying as righteous indignation. Your aunt just enjoys getting her dander up. Its good for her circulation and gives her cheeks a rosey glow. God love her.

When we have a pride parade or when Jody and his bf hold hands in public it reminds your dad and your aunt that the world isn't as simple as they had thought it was or as they wish it were. This pisses them off. What they are really saying is: "Its fine for you to be gay as long as you are willing to help us pretend that you are not" I'm sorry but I am WAY TOO BUSY to invest any time or energy in THAT.

Eventually, they will discover that a world in which some boys and girls like other boys and girls is just as swell as a world in which boys only like girls and vice a versa. Just like Jody's dad has realized that a world in which black people marry white people is pretty much the same as a world in which black people only marry black people and white people only marry white people.

Find a way to say to your dad: "Dad, I love you... but not enough to disappear for you" He'll get it eventually.

Really well put U-Dog! I'm gonna steal it! Much better and clearer than my post!

[Alecto]

This reeks, to me, of "don't flaunt it". Heteros flaunt all the time, so I feel no obligation to keep my relationships "in the bedroom".

[tymejumper]

Try reading this argument by substituting another minority in place of gay(as I did in red) and see what it reads like. Now imagine reading your father's response to his black daughter.


Scott, I had the same thought about substituting another minority, my first choice was black also.


I guess I can explain from my point of view. Pride is the only time I can hold my wifes hand and hug and kiss her and not have to worry about someone trying to harm or hurt us, maybe kill us or yell dirty things at us. It is about liberation and the feeling of community, feeling not alone like we are not the only one.

In reguards about other peoples/couples sex lives. He apparently has reduced all gay people down to simply sex. I resent that immensely. Even if I never had sex again I would still be gay. I was once married to a man, and you guessed it, I was STILL gay. Gay is who I am, not what I do in my bedroom.

I also do not want to know about heterosexuals sex lives. I don't want my children seeing them makeout in public, hold hands to proclaim they are a couple, after all, couples have sex, or hug each other because that can be seen as foreplay. I really am ok with straight couples, as long as they don't try to force their ways on me.....sound familiar?

Yes, I want to be equal, I was to legally marry the woman I love. I want to have my wifes insurance cover me also, I want to save thousand of dollars wasted on attorney fees to protect my assets that I would not have to spend if I could legally marry. I want to be able to help her with her coat in public, hold her hand or kiss her cheek and not be spat on, threatened or even looked at like I'm sick. I want my children to be able to introduce her moms and not have people keep their children form plaing with them. I could go on and on.

People need to stop making excuses to justify keeping me unequal. Saying "we would accept them as long as they do this or that or are not too gay..." is just another excuse.

Unfortunately, my father is exactly the same way.

[RedneckDyke]

Noone is forced to see anything. I get tired of people griping about PRide parades. One weekend a year there's a parade. And out of a hundred people marching, maybe ten will be wearing leather or something that exposes some body parts. BIG DEAL! If you don't want to see it, don't watch it. There are perfectly good detours around the parade sites.
Women show thier boobies every year at Mardi GRas and no one says "Oh my God look at those immoral heteros! Decent people shouldn't be forced to see that.!" Guess what, if you don't like it, don't go to Mardi GRas!

[paul]

My father sat down in his chair and asked me what I thought. I decided against responding. It was then that he said something profound, and something that made sense to me. He looked at me, and, though not in the kindest tone of voice, he said, "people don't want to be forced to see it. They don't want to know about another couples sex lives. We don't want someone else's intimate life forced upon us.

Really? Tell your father he needs to rip the book "Song of Songs" from his bible then, as well as other portions.

[antiochian]

Hi, Tinkerbell.

I'd only like to add this. Imagine if your father were to be informed at how his openness about his Christianity offended others, and were told, "I don't care if you're Christian as long as you never talk about, I never see you holding a Bible, and as long as you take down all Jesus pictures and scripture plaques when I come to your house, so I'm not exposed to it."
He'd probably have a holy fit. He'd probably say that in a democracy he has every right to be open about his faith, and he'd be right. Granted, people can be too in your face about religion, but they also have the right to talk about it, and be open about it. Yet these same people oftentimes want to deny others, namely lbgt folks, that same right, the right to be open and honest about who one is. Get the picture?

[tymejumper]

Women show thier boobies every year at Mardi GRas and no one says "Oh my God look at those immoral heteros! Decent people shouldn't be forced to see that.!" Guess what, if you don't like it, don't go to Mardi GRas!


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
My mother said the same exact thing when I told her about this post!

[Gennee]

A common notion is that being LGBT is all about sex, and it isn't. It about who we are as people. In order to understand someone who is different, people need to be willing get to know that person or group and find some common ground. When I discovered that I was transgender I didn't feel comfortable for a while. Learning and trying to relate is not always comfortable but it can open up the doors to undersanding and acceptance.

Gennee

[sailaway58]

Noone is forced to see anything. I get tired of people griping about PRide parades. One weekend a year there's a parade. And out of a hundred people marching, maybe ten will be wearing leather or something that exposes some body parts. BIG DEAL! If you don't want to see it, don't watch it. There are perfectly good detours around the parade sites.
Women show thier boobies every year at Mardi GRas and no one says "Oh my God look at those immoral heteros! Decent people shouldn't be forced to see that.!" Guess what, if you don't like it, don't go to Mardi GRas!
You can see boobies at Mardi Gras? When is this event? :cowboy:

[tymejumper]

You can see boobies at Mardi Gras? When is this event? :cowboy:


I think it is in March or April. That is how the girls get beads, they flash for em! I'll ask my co-worker, her brother lives in New Orleans.

Of course, you do know that the reason they got washed out with a huricane is because of all us immoral gay people down there. :lol::lol::lol: It does make one wonder that the gay portion on the state was not flooded and also Mardie Gras is considered is straight celebration. Hence, all the sraight people having sex on the street down there and getting naked. (I wish I could remember who made an ass out of themselves by saying that!)

[keltic63]

I think it is in March or April. That is how the girls get beads, they flash for em! I'll ask my co-worker, her brother lives in New Orleans.

Of course, you do know that the reason they got washed out with a huricane is because of all us immoral gay people down there. :lol::lol::lol: It does make one wonder that the gay portion on the state was not flooded and also Mardie Gras is considered is straight celebration. Hence, all the sraight people having sex on the street down there and getting naked. (I wish I could remember who made an ass out of themselves by saying that!)

I remember that accusation too. there was to be a big circuit party in NO, but the hurricane hit about a week before. one of the televangelists claimed it was because God didn't want that kind of perversity going on. I'm puzzled as to why God didn't wait another week and wipe out all the gay party goers. he's God afterall, right? couldn't he have timed that storm to hit just as the circuit boys hit the dance floor? :lol:

[BlueGirl]

I don't remember if I heard anyone say it was specifically because of gays or not but I did hear on the news that Franklin Graham, son of Billy Graham, said it was a "wake up call". I would have thought better of him than to say something that ignorant. He seems to be more fundamentalist than his father is. I'd be surprised, and disappointed, if Billy said anything like that.

[tpdncr4christ]

In order for your father to appreciate "the homosexual" culture and come to accept it, he must first learn about it. He has "seen" all that he cares to about the homosexuals and there agenda, and frankly he didn't like what he saw (I wouldn't either). It's not that we need to expose him to gay porn and force him to watch, more that we need to open his eyes to show him our culture. Show him that we are normal people too.

The problem is that every time he sees something that he doesn't like he turns away, and then when he is presented with an opportunity to change something, (like voting for a more inclusive marriage law) he isn't going to have enough experience about the matter because he keeps looking away. Sometimes we need to live out loud, sometimes we need to have our Pride Parades to get people to notice us, to get them to look at us, so that we can educate them on the fact that we are people too. As much as they are, we are people too.

[keltic63]

I don't remember if I heard anyone say it was specifically because of gays or not but I did hear on the news that Franklin Graham, son of Billy Graham, said it was a "wake up call". I would have thought better of him than to say something that ignorant. He seems to be more fundamentalist than his father is. I'd be surprised, and disappointed, if Billy said anything like that.

Franklin Graham is much more conservative than his father. Billy has been much more gracious to us.

[Zerbie]

I think it is in March or April. That is how the girls get beads, they flash for em! I'll ask my co-worker, her brother lives in New Orleans.

Of course, you do know that the reason they got washed out with a huricane is because of all us immoral gay people down there. :lol::lol::lol: It does make one wonder that the gay portion on the state was not flooded and also Mardie Gras is considered is straight celebration. Hence, all the sraight people having sex on the street down there and getting naked. (I wish I could remember who made an ass out of themselves by saying that!)

Umm. Pretty sure it's, like, end of January. It's the celebration of the last day before Lent - and not being raised Christian, I don't know when Lent is or how long it lasts. Got the impression it begins late Jan/early Feb and lasts for about. . . 6 weeks? Anyway, everyone goes bonkers the last Tuesday before Lent. Presumably this means Lent always begins on a Weds.

RE: the original topic of discussion.

One point that has so far not been made which is rather critical to the ostensible reason for the objection to pride parades is this:

Pride parades are NOT lobbying attempts nor are they educational outreach to the straight mainstream. Pride is FOR the LGBT communities and our friends who love us and want to celebrate with us. It's an important distinction rather analogous to the difference between a casual party with 10-12 good friends in your home versus a $500 per plate gala function for a cause or a political candidate. Ie, they are completely different types of social events. Therefore, it is ridiculous to say that the way the LGBT community "asks for rights" is inappropriate based on the social activities (and usually, the most outrageous photo one can find) of a pride parade.

[keltic63]

Umm. Pretty sure it's, like, end of January. It's the celebration of the last day before Lent - and not being raised Christian, I don't know when Lent is or how long it lasts. Got the impression it begins late Jan/early Feb and lasts for about. . . 6 weeks? Anyway, everyone goes bonkers the last Tuesday before Lent. Presumably this means Lent always begins on a Weds.



Mardi Gras begins with Epiphany on the Twelfth Day of Christmas, and celebrates the arrival of the kings who brought gifts to the Christ child, thus the colors of green, gold, and purple, royal colors, used to celebrate the season of Mardi Gras. Each week, the celebrations become more intense, culminating in the unbridled revelry we see on Fat Tuesday. the actual dates of course are determined by Easter, as Lent begins with Ash Wednesday six weeks before Easter. So, to figure out the length of the Mardi gras season, one has to determine when Easter falls, by using the following algorithm.....or just looking at a calendar.

"The actual conditions to determine the date for Easter are (1) Easter must be on a Sunday; (2) this Sunday must follow the 14th day of the paschal moon; (3) the paschal moon is that of which the 14th day (full moon) falls on or next follows the day of the vernal equinox; and (4) the equinox is fixed in the calendar as March 21. Easter can never occur before March 22 or later than April 25."

once you know when Easter Sunday is, you back it up 40 days (don't count sundays) and you land on Ash Wednesday. so the period of time beginning with the 12th day of Christmas (epiphany) through Fat Tuesday, or mardi gras, dictates that season, and of course, is of varying length.

[glenze]

The last Gay Pride evening party I went was in thecentre of the city and a lot of straight people had turned up (obvious why - drinks, music and drag queens - who can't enjoy that) - when the speeches started the first speaker opened by saying "Welcome to Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender and Straight Pride" - a huge cheer went up and everybody had a great time!

[royalartisan]

My father (who is 72) is a conservative, Nondenominational, Republican ordained minister. I am his 18-year-old,"not straight," socially liberal daughter. We tend to butt heads quite frequently, especially on the issues regarding the GLBT community.

The other night, my father received an email from his sister about a Pride Parade in her home town, and how disgusted she was by it. My father made me read said email. I was disgusted by the hatred that she had put into the letter, and the obvious gay bashing that she was doing. I finished reading the email, and said nothing. My father sat down in his chair and asked me what I thought. I decided against responding. It was then that he said something profound, and something that made sense to me. He looked at me, and, though not in the kindest tone of voice, he said, "people don't want to be forced to see it. They don't want to know about another couples sex lives. We don't want someone else's intimate life forced upon us. If the gays would explain their points, make their arguments without the Pride Parades, and Pride Weekends, and rainbow days at ball parks, maybe people would be more willing to listen to them."

Maybe my father has a point in this. The GLBT community says that we don't want "special" treatment, but that we want "equal" treatment. But, maybe, just maybe, in some cases we try so hard to fine equality that we force closed the eyes of some people. Many of the men and women I know don't so much have a problem with the gay community, as the way the gay community goes about its business and are so turned off by the way we try to reach our issues that they don't want to stick around to hear the rest.

I'm only 18, and I'm still in high school. I will freely admit that I don't know much about the "real world," but, maybe my dad's point is a valid one. We all know that when the Right does and says things that are over the top we don't always stop to hear their points, maybe we should go about our demonstrations in a way that is more open and straight-friendly, maybe if we made our arguments in a more, for lack of a better term, conservative manner the Conservative people would be more willing to listen to us.

With love and blessings,
-Tink


Sound like my dad (except my dad is only 54 :P) and me.

And I agree with him. That's actually what I believe. If our communities would tone down all this "look at me, look at me" kind of stuff, I think people would be more open to hearing (and seeing) us out.

I understand the need to feel that we should be so visible now that more and more of us are coming out...and trying to be proud is a step toward higher self-esteem. But being proud is not a step toward equality.

We all know that pride is dangerous and many people see it as a sin.

It upsets me when you turn on the television and you see all this flagrantly obscene heterosexual crap there, but it has nothing to do with being hateful of heterosexuals because I'm a lesbian. When I see the exploitation of peoples' personal lives, no matter who they are or who they choose to sleep with, it angers me. Your private life should be your own. It bothers me just as much to see those ridiculous Girls Gone Wild adverts and even Tila Tequila. It's egotistical and just...disturbing to me.


I know how it feels to suffocate for fear that people will hate you for being gay...and to feel like we need to shout it from the rooftops..but we need to remember that, for the Baby Boomers and everyone who came before them, this "okay to be gay" movement is a new and shocking ordeal....

[pnggrad79]

Hey Tink,
I didn't know about Pride parades until about 3 years ago. I have been to 4 Pride parades and think that they don't necessarily promote an agenda. It is simply a time when the GLBT community gets together to show their unity and pride in who they are. Scott is right, it is only once a year and is a time we can be who we are and not face the discrimination we endure year round.
I love the bumper sticker that says, "I don't mind straight people, as long as they don't flaunt it" Sex is big business and it has become the norm for things so private to be out there sold and bought... Tell your dad there is such a thing as the off button or the remote control has a power button and all he has to do is shut it off if it bothers him. Tell him to read or go for a walk. He is not chained to the television.
I really have problems with people who are comfortable in their rights and freedoms when there are people in this country who don't have them, and those that do don't understand what the fuss is all about. Tell your dad to go live in the black community or be gay for a day, then he might have a different perspective.

[Rick336]

I've read the comments here. I'm just curious.

Suppose it was a Southern Pride celebration with a parade of floats and bands and hundreds of confederate flags celebrating Southern culture and heritage.

Rick

[Rick336]

Suppose it was a Southern Pride celebration with a parade of floats and bands and hundreds of Confederate flags celebrating Southern culture and heritage.

My point is this.

Even though there are a lot of Southerners who are proud of their culture and heritage, few would feel comfortable being associated with a event that widely displayed the Confederate flag. The reason is that even though the flag is a part of Southern heritage, it is very offensive to a lot people.

This is why I have a problem with gay pride parades. I don't have a problem with LGBT people being visible in the streets. I have been involved in dozens of protest demonstrations over the years. Even my signature on this forum is, "Out of the closets and into the streets!"

I also don't have a problem with tacky drag queens on festive floats and lots of people having a good time. That's what makes parades fun. A good example is New York City's St. Patrick's Day Parade.

What I have a problem with is open sexual expressions and sexual fetishes in the parade. One of the last gay pride parades I attended had a delegation from a local sexual fetish group that I found so offensive I don't feel comfortable describing it on this forum.

I haven't been to a gay pride parade in over a dozen years so maybe things have changed.

Rick

[Zerbie]

My point is this.

Even though there are a lot of Southerners who are proud of their culture and heritage, few would feel comfortable being associated with a event that widely displayed the Confederate flag. The reason is that even though the flag is a part of Southern heritage, it is very offensive to a lot people.

This is why I have a problem with gay pride parades. I don't have a problem with LGBT people being visible in the streets. I have been involved in dozens of protest demonstrations over the years. Even my signature on this forum is, "Out of the closets and into the streets!"

I also don't have a problem with tacky drag queens on festive floats and lots of people having a good time. That's what makes parades fun. A good example is New York City's St. Patrick's Day Parade.

What I have a problem with is open sexual expressions and sexual fetishes in the parade. One of the last gay pride parades I attended had a delegation from a local sexual fetish group that I found so offensive I don't feel comfortable describing it on this forum.

I haven't been to a gay pride parade in over a dozen years so maybe things have changed.

Rick

Eeeek!! I don't care for that, either. :sick: Flirty, even downright sexy fun is one thing, but overt behaviors from people I don't wish to see naked? Ohh, no way.

I've been to a handful of Prides, NYC, Houston, and caught distant glimpses of the Vienna parade. The last time I attended one, I got so many crude sexual come ons from drunk and high people it kinda put me off (and from guys who I'm sure weren't straight????? :confused::confused:).

I don't wish to see ugly displays of sexual behavior either. I would ADORE a gay pride parade with drag queens, dykes on bikes, all the usual stuff without people totally making-out in my face or worse, touching me uninvited. Just because it's Pride does not mean permission to touch strangers. One chick got offended when I told her, after she started trying to, that she may not touch my breasts or slap my buttocks. She thought *I* was rude! :eek::lol:

But -- I see no analogy between being offended at a Confederate flag and being offended by the existence of gay pride parades, Rick. Sorry. I don't get it.

[Rick336]

But -- I see no analogy between being offended at a Confederate flag and being offended by the existence of gay pride parades, Rick. Sorry. I don't get it.

The analogy is that a rebel flag is offensive to a lot of people. A banner for the "Fist ------- Association" is offensive to a lot of people. It's not about the existence of the parades themselves.

I think maybe it was on this forum a year or so ago that some gay pride parades now have strict rules against that kind of stuff.

Rick

[Zerbie]

Oh wow, I've seen some odd stuff at Prides, but never a flag like that! :eek:

Yeah. Crudeness like that absolutely turns me off. I would lose interest in going if it were always like that.

[Alecto]

I think I'm still really optimistic and positive about pride parades because:
A) I took the time to discovery the history behind them, and I think it's important to commemorate the Christopher street march
and
B) I'm in a relatively small city. Our parades just aren't all that offensive. There's always a few folks in the crowd who are a little more... "out there" than everyone else, but it's a large group of people and I almost expect it. I won't say there's no excess of skin, but there's no one full on naked, and (weird as it sounds) the skin that's there is usually "tasteful".

As for people treating you weird: OMG YES! I talked to my brother about that, and he blamed it on two factors:
1)The people who are used to being out around people have been drinking. All day. They get a little more obnoxious than usual.
2)There's a WHOLE bunch of people who don't usually come out to bars, or parades or parties or any other social events, especially those with a high ratio of queer people. They literally just do not know how to behave. I'm by no means saying they get a pass, but I try not to let it bother me either. I set my boundaries, and if they're violated I make sure the other person knows that said behavior is utterly inappropriate; they're not going to keep me from having fun though. :)

[Zerbie]

2)There's a WHOLE bunch of people who don't usually come out to bars, or parades or parties or any other social events, especially those with a high ratio of queer people. They literally just do not know how to behave. I'm by no means saying they get a pass, but I try not to let it bother me either. I set my boundaries, and if they're violated I make sure the other person knows that said behavior is utterly inappropriate; they're not going to keep me from having fun though. :)

TOTALLY. Ditto on the drinking point, as well.
My theory behind the extreme behavior is that it may well be coming from people who are closeted most of the other 365 days, or newly out, factor in the drinking, and voilá, some odd behavior.

I just take exception when a guy I've never seen before grabs me, undoes his button fly, and while pulling me up against him murmers, "I'm a flaming f*gg*t." Yeah? And I'm Jake Gyllenhal. You can immediately see the resemblance.

What the--? :confused:

[matthewspeed]

Rick,

I share your sentiments! I, too, have no problem seeing my gay/lesbian brothers and sisters celebrating, marching in floats- drag queens,leather guys, costumes, etc... We are a diversified community. But the open glorification of sexuality is offensive to me. Our pride fest here in Cincinnati does not have that. It is very family friendly. Many straight and gay parents bring their children. A play area is set up for the kids. It is awsome. Yes, we have the usual drag and leather guys. The men in leather are just that, men in leather. There is no fetish activity going on. The only thing risque' (spelling?) I noticed last year, was a transexual who lifted her top, exposing her "new" breasts. Other than that, there were no overtly sexual explicit scenes through out the day.

We need to keep our sexual escapades in the bedroom. It is time for the gay community to think about our children. They are the next generation that will hopefully carry our banner. If ever I decide to adopt children with my future husband, I want to be able to feel comfortable in bringing my children to the Gay Pride events without having to cover their eyes!!

[NathanATX]

It was then that he said something profound, and something that made sense to me. He looked at me, and, though not in the kindest tone of voice, he said, "people don't want to be forced to see it. They don't want to know about another couples sex lives. We don't want someone else's intimate life forced upon us. If the gays would explain their points, make their arguments without the Pride Parades, and Pride Weekends, and rainbow days at ball parks, maybe people would be more willing to listen to them."


I think your father's statement is a little disingenuous because every time I see a wedding ring/straight couple holding hands, kissing, etc./ads for vacations/parents with children/straight couples dancing, having dinner together, etc... 90% of the time these things are indicators that, heaven forbid, these heterosexual people might be having sex. If normal displays of affection, family, romance, etc. are ok for heterosexual people, then they're ok for gay people. What's good for the straight goose is good for the gay gander.

However, as he and others in this thread have pointed out, the LGBT community could do a much better job communicating clearly about our lives, rights and needs.

I'm one of the chairs for Tulsa Pride... Here's the vision I've written for our events:

The Vision for Tulsa PRIDE 2008 is:
To unite the Tulsa-area Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender community, our allies, families and friends for the purpose of celebrating our lives and histories, strengthening our bonds to each other, and re-energizing our commitment to seek equality for all people.

The Theme for Tulsa PRIDE 2008 is:
equality
We seek the realization of the dream of Equality for all people, irrespective of sexual orientation, gender identity, ethnicity, color, age, abledness, faith or spirituality, citizenship status,wealth, education, etc.
love
We celebrate Love in all the many ways It expresses Itself in our lives. Love for our partners, families and friends. Love for our faith communities and organizations. Love for ourselves. Love even for those with whom we are not yet reconciled.
tulsa
We are proud of our beautiful city, our kind friends and neighbors, our incredible service organizations, our high quality corporations and businesses, and our world class arts and entertainment opportunities.
And here is the answer to a question I've been asked... "Why all the multiculturalism emphasis... is pride going to be gay enough?"
"In the last year, recent events have made our community very aware that hate is not only directed at those who are Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual & Transgender, but is often directed at people because of their faith, skin color, economic status, etc. When Oklahoma legislators passed HB 1804 with the intent of addressing undocumented workers, they unleashed a torrent of intolerance and hatred to those of Hispanic descent. Now, we have found new allies with this marginalized community. When Oklahoma legislators refused a copy of the Q’uran as a gift from a statewide interfaith alliance, our Muslim friends and neighbors suffered great heartache. As each of these things have happened, Oklahomans for Equality has been a vocal voice for justice for these communities. The fruit of this commitment to justice resulted in all of these communities coming to our defense when Rep. Sally Kern declared that LGBT people “were a bigger threat than terrorism.” Martin Luther King Jr. said, “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.” As we stand up for our fellow minority citizens in Oklahoma, we have built great friendships and alliances with these communities. Finally, we should all remember that the LGBT community exists in every other community. Our people are Latino, African American, Asian, Jewish and Muslim. As we speak up for any oppressed group of people, we invariably are speaking up for ourselves. That being said, these are still very much gay pride events. The three cornerstone events are going to be an exciting celebration of our community and our lives. Plus, different facets of our community will be hosting events celebrating our diversity, including events for the Leather community, for the Transgender community, for LGBT families, for LGBT people of faith, for our queer youth, etc."

[tymejumper]

TOTALLY. Ditto on the drinking point, as well.
My theory behind the extreme behavior is that it may well be coming from people who are closeted most of the other 365 days, or newly out, factor in the drinking, and voilá, some odd behavior.



Yeah, Ellie and I saw some pretty tasteless behavior at Lansing Pride last year. They did bill it as 'bring your kids" there was an 'area for children' etc. Then, we were on the parade float and some young(20ish) thing pulls up her shirt and lets her breasts out, at the group of naysayers. I totally understand why she felt she had to do that, after all, people were telling her that we are going to hell, and siteing the Bibile. The really funny part was they were african-american and using the Bible the SAME exact way the KKK and bigots used it to make THEM seem less human! That aside, there were small children there with their gay parents in the crowd and it was pretty distastefull to us both.

Of course, at Marty Gras, people, (straight people), are having sex in the street, and flashing breasts all over, dressing in drag and all types of fetishes. So I fail to see how we are any different than they are! They are just accepted as the 'thing to do'. Should we have to put up with that?

[tymejumper]

I think your father's statement is a little disingenuous because every time I see a wedding ring/straight couple holding hands, kissing, etc./ads for vacations/parents with children/straight couples dancing, having dinner together, etc... 90% of the time these things are indicators that, heaven forbid, these heterosexual people might be having sex.


You forgot the Viagra and Cialis comercials!!!!!:lol::lol::lol::lol:

[Zerbie]

Y Then, we were on the parade float and some young(20ish) thing pulls up her shirt and lets her breasts out, at the group of naysayers. I totally understand why she felt she had to do that, after all, people were telling her that we are going to hell, and siteing the Bibile. The really funny part was they were african-american and using the Bible the SAME exact way the KKK and bigots used it to make THEM seem less human! That aside, there were small children there with their gay parents in the crowd and it was pretty distastefull to us both.


Sounds like it was done out of defiant anger, which makes the solution to things like that the removal of provocation.

Although, honestly, and this is a tangent big enough to warrant its own thread, I do NOT understand why we Americans hyper-sexualize breasts. Other cultures do not have this taboo about the female breast that we have. Imo, it's something that we ought to accept as a normal, and also functional, part of the body, and just get over our inhibitions about it.

[pnggrad79]

I agree Zerb about desexualizing breasts. I mean half the population has them and they are quite functional(in more than one way). As a lesbian, I admit I notice them and try to be quite objective about how they enhance a woman's body and sometimes how they distract or detract from their appearance, but I do not think a woman's personality is defined by them and ultimately the personality will make or break it for me. I think they are beautiful and should be examined monthly and x-rayed yearly. I think they need to loved and supported well and taken care of. Women are beautiful, softer, lovelier and wonderful. What can I say?

[RedneckDyke]

I see Rick's point about the Confederate flag. Some people hate the flag and think it is for hate or racism. The Southern Cross (Confederate battle flag) was appropriated by hate groups and perverted to push their racist antisemite agenda. Racist and antisemite groups are desecrating that flag. I have a Confederate ancestor that fought bravely in the Western theater under Johnston and Hood. I fly a Southern Cross that has the words "Heritage Not Hate" printed on it. That message is directed to hate groups to tell them that the Confederate flag is not for use by hate groups. It is for decorating cemetaries and for display in museums and by people who want to honor their ancestors. There is a good video on YouTube of a guy singing a blugrass song that goes
"The Southern Cross never hid behind a hooded mask
And neither did Robert E. Lee.
The brave Confederate soldiers didn't die for the Nazi party.
That flag ain't yours to desecrate so leave our colors be"

I know I've gone off on a tangent.:)

That said, my response to someone who was offended by a Southern Pride festival would be the same to some offended by a Gay Pride festival. If you don't like it, DON'T GO. I hate rap music, but I don't go around saying people shouldn't have MTV raps concerts. I just change the channel. Or I don't go.

[tymejumper]

I agree Zerb about desexualizing breasts. I mean half the population has them and they are quite functional(in more than one way). As a lesbian, I admit I notice them and try to be quite objective about how they enhance a woman's body and sometimes how they distract or detract from their appearance, but I do not think a woman's personality is defined by them and ultimately the personality will make or break it for me. I think they are beautiful and should be examined monthly and x-rayed yearly. I think they need to loved and supported well and taken care of. Women are beautiful, softer, lovelier and wonderful. What can I say?



I agree. I nursed all my children and in public, but discreetly of course. Breasts are way over rated. They are for feeding children and are more than sex objects. Although I do have to agree they are nice to look at. Men are so visual, they have a hard time talking to a woman and not her breasts. As a lesbian, I do also notice them but I have not the same problem talking to a woman instead of her breasts.

I think that they are the seat of power to some and flashing breasts are the same for women as a man grabbing his crotch in defiance.

[Alecto]

I'm not going to say that nipples are entirely non-sexual, cause...who are we kidding? But I will say that I don't think they're any MORE sexual for women, and it would make sense to have one standard of "decency" for everyone. I tend to be surprised when women are flashing (cause ya don't see that every day) but I don't think I've ever been scandalized.

[scott snedeker]

Chacote for me!:D

[scott snedeker]

I think that they are the seat of power to some and flashing breasts are the same for women as a man grabbing his crotch in defiance.

It's fun and games until someone pokes an eye out..............then it's hilarious!:lol::lol:

[tymejumper]

It's fun and games until someone pokes an eye out..............then it's hilarious!:lol::lol:

Have you seen those shirts? They are hillarious! I have one that says "it's all fun and ganmes until the flying monkeys attack". I also see ones that have a weiner(hot dog) falling in a fire with it saying "it's all fun and games until someone loses a weiner" There are a lot of plays on this. "until someone loses a butt" etc. It would be hillarious if someone poked an eye out. At least they would not have to look at gay people with it anymore!:lol::lol::lol:

Better yet. As God said, "if thine own eye offends thee, pluck it out." Good words to live by, to darn bad those right wingers who just 'hate' to see us gay people don't truly live by the word they claim to believe in!

[tdogg]

I agree Zerb about desexualizing breasts.

Yeah, me too, I'm actually more attracted to a nice rear end... :lol::lol::lol:

Well, I am all for freedom of expression, including Pride parades. While some entrants may be tasteless and I agree with all about the offensive flags and sexual acts, I don't equate drag queens and leather dudes to 'sex'. Sexual acts and naked bodies may not belong, but then again, who am I to put parameters on a Pride parade. If something offends me, I normally don't listen, watch, look etc. There is a lot of history to Pride and while on occasion something is out of control, I think for the most part people are celebrating and not trying to shove who they are down someone's throats.

For those who want less expression, there's always Gay Days at Disneyland. It was pretty tame (and fun too!). :D:love:

[royalartisan]

I LOVE STAR TREK VOYAGER ! Sorry...just had to say that.
Janeway rules. RULES. The end.

ANYWAY.

I went to Long Beach Pride...and.....missed the parade.

But I walked the parade route...and if I had been twenty years older, I imagine it would have been sort of like....all the emotions...all the oppression....brought back as you walk along...almost like the gay trail of tears or a bataan march...you know ? That long and winding road....in California's case, to victory....but after centuries of oppression..it's got to be one surreal experience. So for me, as I walked along Ocean Blvd....I could sense the emotions of the people around me, even though, as Ms. L pointed out, my fight hasn't even begun yet. It's only just beginning.....

[BishopIoan]

I've been to a number of GLTB parades over the years and yeah, there have been some pretty tacky marchers and floats (I used to live in San Francisco), but I kind of understand the need to be "out there" and over-the-top after centuries of oppression which still endures.

I could be WAY off-base, but I think that it is a case of "you homophobes think being GLTB is all about sex. OK I'll show ya sex!!" Yeah, it's counterproductive in many cases, but I honestly understand the emotion. Last year, my spouse and I were taking a break while working at Wal-Mart and, predictably, some jerk had to come tearing through the parking lot and yell, "F*****g dykes!" We were just sitting outside on a bench, talking. No PDAs or anything like that. Yet, as a straight co-worker who was very supportive pointed out (I retired in March), there are straight couples that do everything short of intercourse in the aisles whilst shopping. Unfortunately, a lot of what pulls homophobes' chains when it comes to GLTB people is sex. In many cases, the homophobes have reduced our lives, hopes, dreams, etc. down to sex.

I would honestly like to see the sex toned down a bit at the raunchier parades--though not everything in this world has to be child-friendly--but I also have my moments where I think "good for you!" Maybe if some straights wouldn't constantly reduce us to sex, GLbT people might be less over-the-top during Pride.