Death

[Zerbie]

Daniel, Paul and I have been having a lengthy conversation about death, and about the interface of life with the body -- what animates it, and who are we? We've had some graphic words about what the body is like when it is dead. Deep talks about what can be learned from contemplating death, and so on. We decided we would like to open the conversation up to the rest of our community here and expand the discussion.

If this is a sensitive topic for you right now for any reason, do NOT read on.

The conversation was prompted by my recent visit to a morgue to look inside a dead body (classroom assignment.) The experience I had in the morgue was light-years away different from that at the several funerals I attended in the past. I will say that for me, seeing a dressed up dead person displayed in an open coffin was nothing at all compared to visiting the morgue. The funeral ritual as I perceived it, kept us at quite a distance from really observing the effects of physical death.

I had very mixed feelings during those moments in the morgue. Nearly fled when I first spied the table supporting a long, opaque plastic bag with zipper down the center. Nearly fled again when they started unzipping. I admit to some fleeting moments of visceral horror. But it was fascinating, and I definitely have a clear and vivid picture of how the internal organs are arranged in the body, where they sit, how they function.

What I was most unprepared for was the feeling of sadness. Total stranger who had willed his body to science, and I've no idea how long deceased. Face was covered with a cloth so we did not see it. I do not know what it would have been like if we had. Looking at the internal organs was fascinating, even kind of fun. But when you pull back and stop analyzing details like lung function or the exact location of a kidney, you would see the outline of a man lying on that table. What got to me was seeing hands, complete with fingernails, lying lifeless at the body's side. I wanted to weep.

Well. We wondered what kinds of experiences and insights folks here may have had on this subject. Reactions? Thoughts?

[tpdncr4christ]

Have you ever read the book by Marry Roach entitle Stiff? It's all about human cadavers, what they are used for and how science works with them. It's really a fascinating book, I think you'd like it.

Last year in my human anatomy class we got the opportunity to go to the UCI medical center to watch an autopsy. I was fine watching through the glass window upstairs, but when we got to go down into the room it hit me. It was the smell... I couldn't stand it, just something in their that really messed with me. I got up close to the guy, all opened and exposed and wondered if he would be embarrassed, seeing as though he was really just completely exposed to all these strangers.

[Zerbie]

Have you ever read the book by Marry Roach entitle Stiff? It's all about human cadavers, what they are used for and how science works with them. It's really a fascinating book, I think you'd like it.

Last year in my human anatomy class we got the opportunity to go to the UCI medical center to watch an autopsy. I was fine watching through the glass window upstairs, but when we got to go down into the room it hit me. It was the smell... I couldn't stand it, just something in their that really messed with me. I got up close to the guy, all opened and exposed and wondered if he would be embarrassed, seeing as though he was really just completely exposed to all these strangers.

No, never heard of the book. It does sound interesting!

Oh yeah. The smell was awful. The closer I went to the torso and head the more there was of that nauseating smell. They tried to disguise it by spritzing wintergreen oil around the morgue. Result? Several students declaring they will never chew wintergreen gum again. :rolleyes: :lol:

I did wonder how the deceased would feel about this happening. As it turned out, it was someone who indicated wanting his body to be used for education and science, and his family also consented. That made me feel okay theoretically about cutting him up, but the casual way we were flipping his abdominal skin over and sliding it down over the knees to get out of the way of the viscera felt downright wrong.

As mentioned above, what really hit me was sadness. Lifeless hands. Oh dear, more than anything those hands saddened me immensely.

[scott snedeker]

Twenty-one years ago---Oh God! How did I get old so quickly! --I started my gross anatomy course for med school. Pretty creepy! We dissected everything....and I mean EVERY part....OUCH!

So one night I was alone studying for an exam, alone at the far end of a 100 foot long anatomy lab with 50 cadavers in it. Suddenly...CLICK! and the lights shut off. It was pitch black being in the basement, after midnight and no llight. So I had to feel my way through fifty cadavers to get to the light switch....which was on a timer:eek::eek::eek::eek:

I kept telling myself: "Remember it's not the dead ones you have to watch out for!!!!":lol::lol:

[Zerbie]

Twenty-one years ago---Oh God! How did I get old so quickly! --I started my gross anatomy course for med school. Pretty creepy! We dissected everything....and I mean EVERY part....OUCH!

So one night I was alone studying for an exam, alone at the far end of a 100 foot long anatomy lab with 50 cadavers in it. Suddenly...CLICK! and the lights shut off. It was pitch black being in the basement, after midnight and no llight. So I had to feel my way through fifty cadavers to get to the light switch....which was on a timer:eek::eek::eek::eek:

I kept telling myself: "Remember it's not the dead ones you have to watch out for!!!!":lol::lol:

AAAARGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:lol::lol:

OMG that's so horrible!!!!!!!! Ewwww!!!!!!! OMG I would have had nightmares!!!!!
:lol::lol:

[Daniel]

Oh the working of my mind: my thoughts went to musical theatre this morniing as I read through this thread- please bear with me: a little art...from A Little Night Music by Stephen Sondheim.


Every Day A Little Death

CHARLOTTE:
Every day a little death
In the parlor, in the bed,
In the curtains, in the silver,
In the buttons, in the bread.
Every day a little sting
In the heart and in the head,
Every move and every breath
(And you hardly feel a thing)
Brings a perfect little death.

He smiles sweetly, strokes my hair,
Says he misses me.
I would murder him right there,
But first I die.
He talks softly of his wars,
And his horses, and his whores.
I think love's a dirty business.

ANNE:
So do I!

CHARLOTTE: ANNE:
I'm before him on my knees So do I...
And he kisses me.
He assumes I lose my reason,
And I do.
Men are stupid, men are vain,
Love's disgusting, love's insane,
A humiliating business.

ANNE:
Oh, how true!

CHARLOTTE:
Ah, well... ANNE:
Every day a little death
Every day a little death
In the parlor, in the bed,
On the lips and in the eyes,
In the curtains, in the silver, In the murmurs, in the pauses,
In the buttons, in the bread. In the gestures, in the sighs.
Every day a little sting
Every day a little dies
In the heart and in the head. In the looks and in the lies.
Every move and every breath,

BOTH:
(And you hardly feel a thing)
Brings a perfect little death.




Death. As mentioned about, this conversation started as a result of Zerbie's trip to the morgue- and what started out as a class assignment turned into ruminations on something else. Are we more than the body that we see? Are we animated by something else? And what is that?

Zerbie's repsonse (sorry dear to speak of you in the third person) is one that I have had as well......seeing death close up (thought not in the way she has experienced it) has made me feel sad, and, not only that, has thrown me into something I can only call the Void- a place which the mind seems to inhabit until it comes back to what it takes to be normal reality.

While one is experiencing the touch of death, everything, and everyone, even the most simple task can take on- at once- extraordinary meaning- or seem devoid of any meaning at all. It's as though- in experiencing death up close- one can be thrown into a mental state in which everything that is perceived is sifted and weighed. Things that seemed so important lose that importance- or become very important. There can be the desire to connect, even to make love, to reaffirm life- to touch and taste what is essential to being human.

Death is one hell of a mind-fuck!

I once had a past-life regression (now I'm really going out on a limb) and experienced this kind of state of mind for three 3 days. I didn't know what time it was- and felt as though part of me existed somewhere else, in two places at once- here and 'there'. I experienced, during the 2 and 1/2 hour session (which seemed like 10 minutes in 'real time') the sensation (not quite the right word but it will do) of being 'between lives' as well as three distinct 'realities' of another time and place.

Now. Whether one takes the kind of experience (regression) as 'reality' or not is not my point here. I don't think it's necessary to debate the pros and cons of reincarnation per se. However, the experience made me think - intensely- about the meaning of life and my own tiny part in - what seemed at the time- a great arc of encircling light.

Sondheim- in his art- touches on something I believe we see- and yet - don't see. We are simultaneously drawn towards others, yet feel separate from them. At once in unity, and then at others moments terribly alone.

From a Buddhistic ( and Christian) point of view, Zerbie's response to what she saw- a human being- the physical sheath - laying on a table- the hands- a detail which brought about a world of experience and memory- is one of compassion.

Death can stop up in our tracks, can it not? And help us figure out a great many things- the meaning of the meaning of our lives- for instance. And yet, how often do we have the opportunity to meet death on it's own terms? In our country, death is covered up, prettified, pushed aside and not thought of very much until it happens to someone we love and then that is the only thing we can think of.

Let's see...have we seen the coffins of the dead coming back from Iraq and Afganistan? No. Death is kept away from us. We are treated like shy debutants who haven't had their first dance, while the fact is that death is all around us, at every moment, every juncture, every time we cross the street.

Those who teach meditation often ask their charges to imagine being dead. Why? It's a good motivator. What would you do if you died tomorrow? Tonight? So the thought goes. It's a way of getting out of automatic pilot. But isn't that a paradox? Imagining death so that one might live more fully?

If the mytics are correct- that there is no death- how are we to live? Seeing death up close- one starts to ponder these things, unless of course, one is of atheistic frame of mind, which I do not confess to have.

The awareness of Death- at least for me- is something to think about and become friends with. Whether one believes in God or the Devil and an Afterlife- or none of the above, there is that thing called Life. The here and now. And for me at least, pondering Death has a way of keeping one, if one doesn't shy away from it, in the present moment.

To the Void and back. That's what it feels like to me.

[Jennifer5]

I thought this would get overly graphic and I almost didn't finish reading because I'm not good with that kind of thing.

Daniel, I'm very glad I read your post, it really does make you think. I gives me hope and joy, but at the same time makes me very sad. It's true, we're only showed a very insensitive side of death... our troops coming back in coffins, should sadden us all more, but if we don't know them somehow, we say "that's horrible" and continue eatting dinner. The world stops when we lose someone we love and it's only worse if that life lost was not fully lived and we did not have the 'perfect' relationship with that individual.

It's good to be reminded that life is fragile.

“Dance as though no one is watching you. Love as though you have never been hurt before. Sing as though no one can hear you. Live as though heaven is on earth.”

The person who said that, I think probably really understood what you're talking about.

I'm looking forward to hearing more responses on this topic.:love:

[paul]

And for me at least, pondering Death has a way of keeping one, if one doesn't shy away from it, in the present moment.

"In the present moment" = life. The last moment is 'dead' and gone. It cannot be relived and cannot be changed, and the future doesn't yet exist. So, "death" is a constant in our lives. If we cannot alter the past, to ponder death is to live and the question then becomes how shall we live. This is really mind bending for me, considering from where we derive our "standard." Do we follow a code dead and written on stone, or is there a living breathing 'standard' that we connect with now...what Christianity calls "walking by the spirit." In Greek (pneuma), "spirit" is "wind, breath." In Hebrew (ruach), spirit is the same, i.e., "wind, breath." A teaching attributed to Jesus goes thus "the wind blows where it will, so is everyone who walks by the spirit..." (paraphrased from memory, correct me if I am wrong).

Daniel, Zerbie, and myself started going down this path (or maybe I was headed this way, and didn't get around to running with it) when we decided to bring this to forum. The Biblical association of breath with life. There is something in the description of death: "she breathed her last" that I cannot get away from. The Spirit is described as wind, breath, and in that spirit "we live and move and have our being." So in our last breath we leave the body and take on the form of that which we live and breath while in the body? But it is that breath that animates the body. Is the breath the spirit? Or is it a metaphor for the spirit? I cannot escape the notion that they are somehow connected.

Ecclesiates talks of a "silver cord" that is severed at death. Some who claim to consciously practice astral projection speak of a cord that connects their "spirit" to their body while they are away from it...kind of an umbilical cord. This seems different from breath to me, yet the body still breaths during projection and is still connected to the spirit. :eek:, perhaps I'm not quite ready for prime time. Does any of this resonate with anyone?

[Zerbie]

Breath is not the spirit. But they are very much connected.

Hm. There are cords, now you mention it.

[tpdncr4christ]

"In the present moment" = life. The last moment is 'dead' and gone. It cannot be relived and cannot be changed, and the future doesn't yet exist.

I just had to tell you, your post made me think of life in a new way. Life is like a game of Tetras. The past is set in stone, we can't touch it or change it but we can alter the way we look at it, much like how we can't change the pieces on the board in a game of Tetras. We can sometimes glimpse the future and try to plan ahead, but its rare that we can ever see much farther than the next piece. Which means that we only have power of the potential of the present, in which each decision we make affects the decisions we will make in the future, and is based around the decisions we've made. Life is a game of tetras, and when we run out of room to live, it ends. But unlike a game of tetras, we cannot easily hit the new game button, which makes this one game that much more precious.

[tymejumper]

Breath is not the spirit. But they are very much connected.

Hm. There are cords, now you mention it.


My step-father, to whom I was very close, just recently died. He actually passed on palm Sunday, but we did not call Hospice until the next morning.(St Patricks Day).

I have worked with death many times before and actually seen it, as I work in geriatrics. It is way different when someone you love does die. He was in a lot of pain and at first I was SO happy that he was free of all that pain and his body was ravaged. He looked like(no kidding) one of those mummies on the Indiana Jones movies. I thought, "gee, those special fx guys really do a good job" It was kinda creepy in a way sitting on a death watch and then actually sitting with a corpse(of my dad). I did notice that after his body cooled off, he did not even look like himself any more. That really helped me to deal with the fact that he was just a shell, a holding vessel for his life esence.

I also did a stint in a A and P class(anatomy and physiology). I happened to be newly pregnant with my youngest and the smell of the cadaver was overwhelming, I had to throw up(smells really bother women when they are pregnant). I got some Vicks and stuck it under my nose so I could attend the lecture. The body was very cool, it looked like a wonderful machine and I really gained a lot of respect for all it does.

[Zerbie]

Totally cool insights. I get what you're referring to about a shell absolutely. When life leaves, the body is truly empty and void. Which tells us much.

[Jennifer5]

I just had to tell you, your post made me think of life in a new way. Life is like a game of Tetras. The past is set in stone, we can't touch it or change it but we can alter the way we look at it, much like how we can't change the pieces on the board in a game of Tetras. We can sometimes glimpse the future and try to plan ahead, but its rare that we can ever see much farther than the next piece. Which means that we only have power of the potential of the present, in which each decision we make affects the decisions we will make in the future, and is based around the decisions we've made. Life is a game of tetras, and when we run out of room to live, it ends. But unlike a game of tetras, we cannot easily hit the new game button, which makes this one game that much more precious.
Wow... very simple explanation for a very complicated idea!

My step-father, to whom I was very close, just recently died. He actually passed on palm Sunday, but we did not call Hospice until the next morning.(St Patricks Day).

I have worked with death many times before and actually seen it, as I work in geriatrics. It is way different when someone you love does die. He was in a lot of pain and at first I was SO happy that he was free of all that pain and his body was ravaged. He looked like(no kidding) one of those mummies on the Indiana Jones movies. I thought, "gee, those special fx guys really do a good job" It was kinda creepy in a way sitting on a death watch and then actually sitting with a corpse(of my dad). I did notice that after his body cooled off, he did not even look like himself any more. That really helped me to deal with the fact that he was just a shell, a holding vessel for his life esence.

I also did a stint in a A and P class(anatomy and physiology). I happened to be newly pregnant with my youngest and the smell of the cadaver was overwhelming, I had to throw up(smells really bother women when they are pregnant). I got some Vicks and stuck it under my nose so I could attend the lecture. The body was very cool, it looked like a wonderful machine and I really gained a lot of respect for all it does.
That sentence specifically jumped out at me... because I felt that if really didn't even say something about death as a whole, but rather about the life the of the man that he was... to you he was a warm/comforting/loving father, when he was not warm, he was not him.
If that doesn't make sense or is somehow rude, I'll delete immedately, just because I don't know when talking about a personal situation how things can be taken....

[Pablo Rafael]

My grandmother and I had opposite view on death. She seemed to me to be fascinated with it. All rides in the car with grandma had to make a swing by the cemetary. She made sure that she went to every funeral; never was she so happy as at a funeral. The idea of cremation was just appaling to her.

My view on death is that it is just a gateway to a vastly better stage of life to come. What happens to my body after death is of no consequence to me. My existence in this life is temporary, and all things here are transitory. However in the eternity to come, all things will have permanence and the sorrows of this existence will be gone. I am looking forward to that day.

You would never get me to watch an autopsy. I'm a total wimp. I always close my eyes when those part come on CSI. I got grossed out by the dissections we had to do in 8th grade. I let my lab partners do all the work.

[paul]

Breath is not the spirit. But they are very much connected.

Hm. There are cords, now you mention it.

Hi Zerb.
I agree that breath is not the spirit, but I am very curious about the connection/s. Something I forgot to add was "she breathed her last" is followed by "and gave up the spirit." hmmm.

here is the reference to the "silver cord," speaking of death.

6Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.

7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

[keltic63]

My grandmother and I had opposite view on death. She seemed to me to be fascinated with it. All rides in the car with grandma had to make a swing by the cemetary. She made sure that she went to every funeral; never was she so happy as at a funeral. The idea of cremation was just appaling to her.

My view on death is that it is just a gateway to a vastly better stage of life to come. What happens to my body after death is of no consequence to me. My existence in this life is temporary, and all things here are transitory. However in the eternity to come, all things will have permanence and the sorrows of this existence will be gone. I am looking forward to that day.

as I grow older and experience things that can not be explained (my departed grandmother visits me pretty regularly!) I've come to believe that passing from this life must indeed take us to something even better.


You would never get me to watch an autopsy. I'm a total wimp. I always close my eyes when those part come on CSI. I got grossed out by the dissections we had to do in 8th grade. I let my lab partners do all the work.

funny thing is, i can't watch surgeries on tv, I'm all squeamish, even about kids' boo boo's here at school, I don't even want them to show me when they lose their teeth. Yet, I'll watch CSI, and I even went to the "Bodies" exhibit and did fine.

[paul]

Life is like a game of Tetras.

tp,

:lol:...well, okay, I think I understand. but I am guessing life is less symetrical than Tetras.

You do raise an interesting point about "glimpsing the future." I think that's what a lot of religion is about, i.e., the desire to know the "future." I think the fear of death is rooted in not knowing the future and what it may hold. Even in 'life' we plan for the next day to 'secure' our future...that may not exist, certainly doesn't in an absolute way that we might project it.

[Daniel]

I thought Tetra's were tropical fish! :rolleyes:

Austin- your post was brilliant!

[keltic63]

I thought Tetra's were tropical fish! :rolleyes:

Austin- your post was brilliant!

http://www.freetetris.org/welcome.html play it and Austin's post makes even more sense!

[Jennifer5]

http://www.freetetris.org/welcome.html play it and Austin's post makes even more sense!

Thanks a lot, now I'll never get my work done. :rolleyes:

:love:

[Zerbie]

That sentence specifically jumped out at me... because I felt that if really didn't even say something about death as a whole, but rather about the life the of the man that he was... to you he was a warm/comforting/loving father, when he was not warm, he was not him.
If that doesn't make sense or is somehow rude, I'll delete immedately, just because I don't know when talking about a personal situation how things can be taken....

:love:
It makes perfect sense. Walking back from the morgue, another student told me she about her grandmother's recent passing. She told me that when she came back in the room after her grandmother died, all the warmth was gone from the room, and that's how she knew her grandmother was not there.

[Zerbie]

Hi Zerb.
I agree that breath is not the spirit, but I am very curious about the connection/s. Something I forgot to add was "she breathed her last" is followed by "and gave up the spirit." hmmm.

here is the reference to the "silver cord," speaking of death.

6Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.

7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

This sounds like Kundalini yoga. Where did you read this?

[Zerbie]

I thought Tetra's were tropical fish! :rolleyes:

Austin- your post was brilliant!

They are. :p Austin means Tetris.

And the example is absolutely a perfect way to describe the time concept as Paul spoke of it.

[tpdncr4christ]

They are. :p Austin means Tetris.

And the example is absolutely a perfect way to describe the time concept as Paul spoke of it.

My spell check said Tetris was wrong! But thanks! lol... :D:lol:

[antiochian]

I've seen a number of people die during my years in health care, as well as my grandmother. On TV, people die with a nice pink color, with their eyes and mouths closed. Not so in reality. The strangest part is the eyes, that empty stare. Seeing my grandmother die was extremely sad, yet so beautiful.

We are made up of energy, hence the warmth our bodies produce as opposed to the coldness of a deceased body. That energy must go somewhere when it's all said and done. Energy does not just disappear, or does it?

Funerals, which I think few would say are enjoyable, give us an interesting glimpse at our culture. A fancy casket and lots of flowers assure the deceased's socio-economic standing, or so it seems. In Grandma's case, lack of life insurance meant a welfare-quality coffin, not so many flowers, and we felt bad about it--but oh, the love that was in that church that day! Granddaughters and great-granddaughters singing special hymns, a grandson's eulogy. Everyone there got the message that this person was important and was loved!

I guess for me thinking of death makes me remember to keep my priorities straight: That it's more important to be kind than to be a Hollywood celebrity or supermodel, that hours spent with loved ones are more important than hours spent watching "reality" TV, that pursuing goals and dreams and being ourselves are more important than living to please Mom and Dad, or whomever. What is one lifetime but a drop in the ocean of history? But one life can make such a huge difference!

My very scattered thoughts for a penny.

[tymejumper]

Wow... very simple explanation for a very complicated idea!


That sentence specifically jumped out at me... because I felt that if really didn't even say something about death as a whole, but rather about the life the of the man that he was... to you he was a warm/comforting/loving father, when he was not warm, he was not him.
If that doesn't make sense or is somehow rude, I'll delete immedately, just because I don't know when talking about a personal situation how things can be taken....


No, you did not offend me at all, I understand what you are trying to say. :D It is true, he was not him. I was glad my kids talked to him on the phone only and didn't see him that way. I didn't want them to remember him that way, as not really him.

He was a funny, funny guy and he would have laughed at how he looked dead if he could have(some day I'll post about Bob the Squirell and about shoe boxes and why they are important, both running family jokes!)

[Zerbie]

My spell check said Tetris was wrong! But thanks! lol... :D:lol:

Annnnnnnddddd - THIS is why I do not rely on spell check programs. :lol::lol: They are helpful at catching the odd mistake here or there, but they also like to "correct" correct things into errors. :rolleyes:

Fish: Obviously, your spellcheck was not programmed to recognize the name of the computer game and supplied you with the correct spelling for a tropical fish, instead. :p (When I was little I had an aquarium of tropical fish in my room, and neon tetras were my favorites.)

Spellcheck: I've been known to nearly bust a rib laughing at the things my spellcheck wants me to say. Especially when writing about music, opera, and song texts in a variety of languages. :p Aw man, sometimes I want to print a paper with all the wrong suggestions spellcheck inserts, just so we can all laugh ourselves to death ---

Ahhhh! DEATH! We're back on topic. ;)