Controversial Scriptures in the Bible

[snuka12000]

I have been e-mailing back-and-forth with somebody about some controversial scriptures that are in the Bible. I will respond to this person but before I do I want to get your view on what this person wrote to me.

He wrote...

"I'm glad to hear you do not agree that slavery is ok. Apparently, I am more familiar with the Bible than you, having read almost the entire thing -- even the parts your Sunday school teacher doesn't dare talk about.

My friend is world-renowned Theologian named Professor Levinson. He's devoted his life to studying religion, and is a Rabbi, in fact. He graduated from Harvard and has the ability to read the ORIGINAL SCRIPTURES in Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew -- BEFORE THEY WERE CLEANED UP AND SANITIZED -- CHANGED -- BY MODERN CHRISTIANS.

I don't look forward to hearing you justify the following passages from the Bible, a book you believe is PERFECT.

Or...are there "contexts" where slave Jews are ok? You'll have to explain which contexts would make God approve of slaves.

Exodus 21:20-21 -- When a slave-owner strikes a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished. But if the slave survives for a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner's property.

Translation -- You can kill your slaves, they are money, unless they instantly die. If they live a few days, it's cool.

=======

Exodus 21:1-4: "If thou buy a Jew slave, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his slave master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her slave master's, and he shall go out by himself."

Translation -- Slave masters can tell people who to marry, and then rip the families apart and keep the slave children.

=======

Exodus 21:7: "And if a man sell his daughter to be a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do."

I think that's clear.

========

Deuteronomy 23 No one whose testicles are crushed or whose penis is cut off shall be admitted to the assembly of the Lord.


======

Now we can all watch as Slavery apologists justify these passages and explain this evil away as "being taken out of context."

Sad...sad...sad...

There are some beautiful passages in the Bible. And there is some evil in it, plain and simple. There are better books to learn morality from. And many of the Christians who claim to believe in this book aren't familiar with it, ignore the evil parts and don't even actually live by the good parts.

Snuka, please tell us why the "God" of this book, or Jesus himself, didn't say something like this --

"Slavery is evil. Give up your slaves. Black people are human beings, not animals. Release the blacks and release the Jews."

Oh, and please tell us why the authors of the Bible think the earth is flat, and snakes can talk, and that you can put magical potions in women's vaginas, and if they cheated on their husbands, their vaginas will rot and fall out. And please tell us why the "God" in this book tells people to stone people who have different religious views.

I could go on. See, I have read the book. It seems you haven't. Or you have spent a lot of time justifying and explaining away nonsense and evil.

Bill Maher says the people who take the Bible literally have a mental illness and need treatment. That being said, I am fully aware many people learn their moral codes from this book, and are inspired by the pretty parts.

Why don't we create a new Bible and leave out the evil parts?"

[tpdncr4christ]

Why don't we create a new Bible and leave out the evil parts?"

Because, I believe, that would be deemed blasphemy by most people who use it. And why change something that brings you so much power? Well, at least that would be what the leaders of the churches would say.

[Pablo Rafael]

Snuka,

Your post clearly illustrates the reason why I think that we cannot read he Bible literally. In fact the idea of reading the Bible literally is a rather modern idea. It didn't come about until the 1800's along with dispensational theology and all other manner of theological nonsense. The Bible must be read in the context of the culture when it was written. If one reads the Bible literally, he finds contradictions all over the place. If one reads the Old Testament, especially the books deaing with he conquest of the promised land, he gets the impression that God is a mean, cruel and vengeful.

Fortunately the New Testament authors and apostles (under God's direction) discarded most of the Old Testament regulations which were a hindrance rather than a help to first century believers. It wasn't the WORDS of the Old Testament that were imporant, but the ideas.

I believe that the Bible teaches us principles. Those principles must be used to interpret the Bible. One of those principles is that God loves all equally and unconditionally. We likewise must love equally and unconditionally. Slavery in any form goes against that principle. Discrimination against any group goes against that principle. I just taught a unit to middle schoolers on the civil rights movement. It was one of the most interesting units I have ever taught. It impressed upon me how the churches in the south were more a hindrance to the movment than a help. That I feel is totally contrary to God's plan.

The question is then why are those sections in the Bible. I believe that those regulation helped a people who had a culture much different from ours to keep from abusing others. Those rules are like a curb to control even worse violations of God's plan.

The Bible is complex, vague and difficult. I believe that God has purposly left it that way so that we will have to search for deeper meaning and underlying principles. We can but understand God imperfectly. My life should always be a search to understand God more fully. Trying to find a simple black and white literal interpretation robs the Bible of its meaning.

I'm not a left wing liberal either. I'm a conservative who loves and respects the Bible as the Word of God. I think the literalists have taken the truths of the Bible and hid them. To insist that Bible must be interpreted literally is much like the medieval church insisting that the Bible be in Latin so that the people would not read it. Each robs the individul of the meaning of God's Word.

Pablo

[Steven E. Webster]

I'm not a left wing liberal either. I'm a conservative who loves and respects the Bible as the Word of God.
Pablo

Hold on here, Pablo, the Bible does not belong just to conservatives. I am a "left wing liberal" and the Bible is dear to me, too. There are folks who think that if you don't take the Bible "literally" than you don't respect the Word of God.

I believe in the Word of God, I just don't think that EVERY word in the Bible is the word of God. God speaks to us through the Bible, and in other ways too!

I would be conservative enough to reject the creation of some new, modern Bible from scratch, as though we could make it "right" this time. Inevitably such a "new Bible" would manifest the imperfections, prejudices and sins of our own modern culture.

I think we have to live with the Bible we have, warts and all. But we have to recognize the warts. We need to approach it critically. Even Abraham (not to mention Job) was known to have disagreements and arguments with God. We need to seek to be aware of what God is saying to us now.

As the United Church of Christ says, "God is still speaking."

Steven Webster

[snuka12000]

Thank you, all! Your feedback has enlightened me and focused how I should respond to this guy that is e-mail me about these issues.

[Gregory_de_Bois]

I have been e-mailing back-and-forth with somebody about some controversial scriptures that are in the Bible. I will respond to this person but before I do I want to get your view on what this person wrote to me.

He wrote...

"I'm glad to hear you do not agree that slavery is ok. Apparently, I am more familiar with the Bible than you, having read almost the entire thing -- even the parts your Sunday school teacher doesn't dare talk about.

My friend is world-renowned Theologian named Professor Levinson. He's devoted his life to studying religion, and is a Rabbi, in fact. He graduated from Harvard and has the ability to read the ORIGINAL SCRIPTURES in Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew -- BEFORE THEY WERE CLEANED UP AND SANITIZED -- CHANGED -- BY MODERN CHRISTIANS.

I don't look forward to hearing you justify the following passages from the Bible, a book you believe is PERFECT.

Or...are there "contexts" where slave Jews are ok? You'll have to explain which contexts would make God approve of slaves.

Exodus 21:20-21 -- When a slave-owner strikes a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished. But if the slave survives for a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner's property.

Translation -- You can kill your slaves, they are money, unless they instantly die. If they live a few days, it's cool.

=======

Exodus 21:1-4: "If thou buy a Jew slave, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his slave master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her slave master's, and he shall go out by himself."

Translation -- Slave masters can tell people who to marry, and then rip the families apart and keep the slave children.

=======

Exodus 21:7: "And if a man sell his daughter to be a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do."

I think that's clear.

========

Deuteronomy 23 No one whose testicles are crushed or whose penis is cut off shall be admitted to the assembly of the Lord.


======

Now we can all watch as Slavery apologists justify these passages and explain this evil away as "being taken out of context."

Sad...sad...sad...

There are some beautiful passages in the Bible. And there is some evil in it, plain and simple. There are better books to learn morality from. And many of the Christians who claim to believe in this book aren't familiar with it, ignore the evil parts and don't even actually live by the good parts.

Snuka, please tell us why the "God" of this book, or Jesus himself, didn't say something like this --

"Slavery is evil. Give up your slaves. Black people are human beings, not animals. Release the blacks and release the Jews."

Oh, and please tell us why the authors of the Bible think the earth is flat, and snakes can talk, and that you can put magical potions in women's vaginas, and if they cheated on their husbands, their vaginas will rot and fall out. And please tell us why the "God" in this book tells people to stone people who have different religious views.

I could go on. See, I have read the book. It seems you haven't. Or you have spent a lot of time justifying and explaining away nonsense and evil.

Bill Maher says the people who take the Bible literally have a mental illness and need treatment. That being said, I am fully aware many people learn their moral codes from this book, and are inspired by the pretty parts.

Why don't we create a new Bible and leave out the evil parts?"

Quite simply, we cannot take out these "evil" parts because we lose so much history and understanding of the Jewish People. Yeah, a lot of the laws in this book seem absolutely ridiculous to modern readers, and rightly so often. I think it is interesting that he pulls the "My friend is..." argument, as it doesn't truly matter what this one "scholar" says, it is technically a logical fallacy (can't remember the exact one, but it is). Also, he seems to not be consistent in that, if we don't take the whole Bible literally, we don't have to follow all of these rules.

If we take them out, and just make a book of all of the "pretty parts" we don't have authentic, human spirituality. We lose something that we might not have liked, but we need it there nonetheless. I think the laws also need to be compared to the practices of the contemporary societies of Ancient Israel, which had far crueler practices than these.

AS to the issue of slavery, I don't think he is aware of the Year of Jubilee.(Year of Jubilee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubilee_(Biblical))) Nor the widely accepted doctrine of Progressive Revelation.

[glenze]

Hi, I would like to reply here as it's something I have thought long and hard about.
Firstly we must remember that the bible was written in different languages. Most people are only reading a translation (or a translation of a translation). I am a language teacher living in Portugal and I know how common misunderstandings are because of translations. for example, in Portuguese there is a word "saudades" which translated means "longings" BUT "saudades" is a much stronger word and the translation doesn't really convey the meaning - only the actual word can do that. So translations of the Bible can be fuilled with all sorts of human errors
Secondly the Bible was not written by God. It may have been inspired by him but it was written by many many different men all with their own agendas and prejudices.
Thirdly it was written a long time ago - a different time and a different culture. How well do we understand Middle Eastern culture at the present time, let alone 2000 or more years ago?
Trying to justify values and beliefs by reading the bible literally is ridiculous. Discerning the message by trying to discover the spirit of what is being said is, in my view the only possible way to go,

Glen

[Pablo Rafael]

Hold on here, Pablo, the Bible does not belong just to conservatives. I am a "left wing liberal" and the Bible is dear to me, too. There are folks who think that if you don't take the Bible "literally" than you don't respect the Word of God.


Steven,

You're one of those left-wing liberals are you? (eyes narrowing to little slits). Hmm...I see. :mad:

Actually in conservative Christian circles people consider me a liberal. Here on the forums I am more conservative than most. Conservatives often think that they have a monopoly on the truth. I think that often times the liberals have a better understanding of the Bible because liberals don't think they know everything and have don't think they have an inside track to the mind of God.

Pablo

[RedneckDyke]

When you think about it, telling people not to beat a slave so bad that instantly dies was probably pretty liberal back then. When we read the bible we have to look at the historical context it was written in.

There's parts of the bible I don't take literally. And parts that I don't follow. Everytime I wear a poly-cotton blend or eat a bacon cheeseburger I am commiting an abomination. Heck, I am a pig farmer. I raise abominations. ;)

About talking animals, I love that story. I can just see Balaam's donkey saying, "Why are you beating me three times? Haven't I always been a good ass? Why are you beating my ass?"

[Gennee]

When you study the bible one has to consider a number of factors.

1. When was it written.

2. Why did God institute such commands.

3. Who was the audience.

4. Research the nations surrounding the children of Israel.

Case in point. Anything that was blemished or damaged was unacceptable to God. This was before the children of Israel entered the land God had given to them. God desired that they be distinct from their pagan neighbors in practice and lifestyle. If you note later in Isaiah 56 that eunuchs were accepted into the God's covenant. There are many things in the OT that are not pertinent to today. They do serve as an example of God's guidance and direction.

In the case of slavery what happened to black slaves was plain economics and had nothing to do with spirituality. I am an African American and I know that ripping apart families is NOT part of God's itinery. Slaveowners used the bible to justify what they were doing.

Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed not because of homosexuality but because of inhospitality. This is mentioned in both the OT and NT (Jude).
It is important to do a thorough search of the scriptures because loosely tossed out scriptures have, in many cases, been used to justify some of the evils perpetrated on others.

Gennee

[snuka12000]

Amen to that, Gennee!

[BruceChris]

Aside from the Great Commandment, and one or two other high points, I find that I cannot really get much of anything out of the bible, and that's only the NEW testament. The context is constantly changing, and the metaphores or figures of speach conspire to cast doubt on any possible coherency.

John Spong wrote a book called "Saving the Bible From Fundamentalists", it was 250 pages, and the first 200 pages were spent on pointing out the inconsistancies and contradictions, and he was only hitting the high points.

So I get my theology and Christology from reading books written by theologians, and biblical scholars.

I start with Elizabeth Johnson, and John Spong, and Carter Hayward, and from there the list gets pretty long. I trust that they know what they're doing, and they are vastly more readable. And the Love of God comes shining through, always. I highly recommend it.

Namaste', Bruce Chris

[snuka12000]

BruceChris,

You said, "Aside from the Great Commandment, and one or two other high points, I find that I cannot really get much of anything out of the bible, and that's only the NEW testament."

There is so much to get out of the Bible. It's worth to take the time to ready study and focus on the Bible. Get a Bible that is not the King James Version but a version/translation of the Bible that is translated into contemporary English, how we talk today. My Bible is the New Living Translation: Life Application Study Bible. That is a good Bible to get because it breaks down and explains the scriptures, books and people of the Bible.

You said, "So I get my theology and Christology from reading books written by theologians, and biblical scholars."

It's okay to read those books by those people, as a guide and help, but they have their own interpretations and opinions of the Bible. It is good to read the Bible for yourself and not depend on anyone else's interpretation of it. Anyone can manipulate and twist what's really going on in the Bible.