May I talk some more

[BlueGirl]

Hi Everyone,
May I talk with you some more concerning the incident with the woman at church who hurt me so bad, Sunday a week ago? I am still reeling from that. :unhappy:
I am just blown away because all this time, roughly the past 7 years, I thought she was accepting of me as a gay person, an equal, even morally supportive of us, but now I've come to the conclusion that she's homophobic and doesn't consider being gay as equal to heterosexuality, which would explain some of her actions. :confused: :unhappy:
Thinking about all the different bad ways she has treated me from time to time, I'm also blown away that I kept loving her in spite of all of it and being there whenever she called. Most people would have told her where to get off a long time ago. :mad:

She has referred to us as "friends" but what she has shown me isn't remotely close to my idea of what friendship is. I have told her all along that I wanted a "real friendship" or nothing, but the last time I told her that (a few months ago), she said that what I wanted (not what I wanted, what I ASKED for) was "beyond friendship". In my opinion, what she calls friendship is really just an acquaintanceship. I'd like to know if the majority of people agree with me or with her. So to satisfy my curiosity, would some of you here at Soulforce be willing to tell me what your idea of friendship is and some of the things you think are included in it? I'm talking about friendship with people you can physically be with, not just online.

Also, have any of you gay people ever been so in love with a heterosexual that you made such a fool of yourself that, when you came to your senses, you felt so ashamed you wished you could literally go hide? I'd like to know if many gay people have been there and done that or am I in a minority there too?

Thanks,
BlueGirl

[Zerbie]

It was an earlier thought of mine that perhaps you and she just have different definitions of friendship.

We use the word "friend" very casually in our society. Quite likely, most of the people that generally refer to one another as "friends" might be better described as pals, buddies, acquaintances.

Or to put it another, there are many levels of friendship. There's the "friend" we just chat with around the water cooler, during breaks, and never hang out with. There's the friend we occasionally grab lunch with, the one we sometimes go to movies with, and then, most rare, there is the one or few who we share our deep stuff with and they share theirs with us. Maybe she just wants a surface level friendship and to her book, anything more is 'something else.'

RE: crushes. I'm bisexual. There were times when I was single when I had crushes on straight girls. It turned out that a couple of them, later, when the crush had sort of worn off, told me that they could tell I'd had crushes on them. I was shocked since I thought I'd kept it to myself. Apparently, no. :p At the time, I was so embarrassed I wanted to go dig a hole and hide in it, yes. :p

[Vanessa White]

Hey Bluegirl:

I can't say that I can identify with the crush thing; I have had the crushes, but don't know if those cute straight chicks ever noticed or not. That has been so long ago.......

I believe that there are definitely different definitions of friendship, for sure, that could be the case between you and this woman. It doesn't have to make negative what you perceived the friendship to be, except that it seems now that she is saying it is not what she wants, or wanted. But, it sounds like your expectations are clear and reasonable for what you want in a friend.

I had a friend recently,in the last couple of years, who it has taken me those full two years to understand that she was not much of a friend, in the way that I define it. We had fun when we spent time together, we had some stuff in common, but when I really needed friends, really needed to talk, she wouldn't answer her phone or respond to my texts. It seemed that the "friendship" worked when she was in control of the time and the demands. I still miss her at times; my daughter got close to her as well; not sure what happened with it all, but I am guessing the stuff that makes friendships right for me, wasn't really there in the first place.

I just thought that it was, and that has been a tough lesson for me to learn.....:love:

[antiochian]

Have I ever liked a straight guy? Ohh yeah. In good ol' high school. Guys in my college classes (holy cow, are some of them cute!). Guys from work. When I was staying at a monastery, there was a really attractive monk that I followed around like a lovesick puppy. I wanted to be at his side all the time (granted, whether he was straight I don't know). Don't know whether my feelings showed in any of those cases. Perhaps one way I could be giving it away is by staring, which I try not to do, but Lord it's hard not to at times!

As far as friendship goes, a true friends accepts you for you. There is also mutual trust and caring in true friendship.

[inca nitta]

Hi Everyone,
May I talk with you some more concerning the incident with the woman at church who hurt me so bad, Sunday a week ago? I am still reeling from that. :unhappy:
I am just blown away because all this time, roughly the past 7 years, I thought she was accepting of me as a gay person, an equal, even morally supportive of us, but now I've come to the conclusion that she's homophobic and doesn't consider being gay as equal to heterosexuality, which would explain some of her actions. :confused: :unhappy:
Thinking about all the different bad ways she has treated me from time to time, I'm also blown away that I kept loving her in spite of all of it and being there whenever she called. Most people would have told her where to get off a long time ago. :mad:

She has referred to us as "friends" but what she has shown me isn't remotely close to my idea of what friendship is. I have told her all along that I wanted a "real friendship" or nothing, but the last time I told her that (a few months ago), she said that what I wanted (not what I wanted, what I ASKED for) was "beyond friendship". In my opinion, what she calls friendship is really just an acquaintanceship. I'd like to know if the majority of people agree with me or with her. So to satisfy my curiosity, would some of you here at Soulforce be willing to tell me what your idea of friendship is and some of the things you think are included in it? I'm talking about friendship with people you can physically be with, not just online.

Also, have any of you gay people ever been so in love with a heterosexual that you made such a fool of yourself that, when you came to your senses, you felt so ashamed you wished you could literally go hide? I'd like to know if many gay people have been there and done that or am I in a minority there too?

Thanks,
BlueGirl

Hi Blue girl,

I don't know what to tell you, but I think it would be helpful to understand if you explain what exactly this woman did that you found to be so homophobic and unfriendly. What were her actions? Has she said something striking to you?

[BlueGirl]

Thanks to all of you who responded. I appreciate that very much.
I want to respond some but I'm going to have to do it without using the quotes because I haven't yet learned to do them as well as the rest of you do.

inca nitta, there’s a lot of different things I’ve put together, too much to explain here, that now makes me think she’s homophobic but what started me to thinking that is something she said a couple of weeks ago.
When a woman (the one with the ’51 Ford) who I’m sure is gay, came into the restaurant where we were, I told B. about an incident in which that woman had told me about a tea to be held at our old school, then later, after I’d written her a short, friendly letter, acted like she didn’t know me, which she did that day too. She turned her head away when we walked by. I don’t know why she acted that way but I was telling B. that some gay people are so afraid of being suspected of being gay and maybe that’s what was going on with that woman. Sometime during what I was telling her, B. said that being gay isn’t a part of her (B.’s) life. I don’t know why she said that. I never thought she was gay so did she mean she didn’t want to hear about anything in my life that has to do with my being gay or about anyone else who is? If so, why had she ever socialized with me at all? I don’t know what else she could have meant. I was so shocked that the only thing I could think of to say was that it should be because she has a friend who is. She has known for the past 6 or 7 years (however long it’s been) that I am and she never let on like she didn’t want to hear about anything having to do with being gay. A couple of times, including that day, I’ve tried to “educate” her about things we gay people have to deal with that heterosexuals don’t (being scared for anyone to know and what can happen if they do, etc.) and she acted liked it irritated her because she said in an irritated way that she knew that because she’d seen documentaries, as if that told everything there was to know about us and our situations. So I thought it irritated her because she thought I was insulting her intelligence (she thinks she knows everything), not because the subject had to do with being gay. With her, you have to sometimes read between the lines and piece things together, like a puzzle. She has a very bad habit of keeping silent and letting people think she feels a certain way that she maybe doesn’t. I call that being less than honest, maybe even sneaking and deceptive. Maybe it bothered her for someone who knows I’m gay to see her with me, even though they don’t know each other. I don’t know. But, if so, that would certainly be an example of homophobia. I pick up on things sometimes (my minister said I’m “intuitive") that other people wouldn’t notice, and I might be mistaken, but I’ve had the feeling more than once that she didn’t want certain people to see her with me, even though she told me just recently that if anyone at church, other than the minister, knows I’m gay, they haven’t said anything to her about it. But something definitely bothered her that day.

What determines whether it’s a crush or love?
At 63 years old, if what I felt for B. the past 7 years and how I tried to show it wasn’t full blown love (not a crush), then I don’t know what love is and have never felt it for anybody in my entire life. Unfortunately, love doesn’t have to be felt by both people in order for it to exist on the part of one.



Vanessa, that "friend" you had who wanted things only on her time and her terms, sounds a lot like the woman I’m talking about. That is a selfish, inconsiderate way to do someone and is not a friend by any stretch of the definition, in my opinion. I can’t talk with her either about things like friends do. She either doesn't want to hear it or takes the other side, or both. I can talk with people on here and get better treatment than I got from her a lot of times.

Is your “friend” gay, bi, or heterosexual?
Going by what I know about B., not just how she’s been with me but also how she’s been with some other people, I don’t think she knows what real love or close friendship is. I think she’s too self-centered for that.
If she didn’t want a close friendship with me like I wanted, that was certainly her choice.
But since I had made it plain what kind of a friendship I wanted and that I wanted that or no relationship at all, then she should have respected my feelings, as I trusted her to do, and gone her way and let me go mine, but she didn’t want to do that either.
Based on all my experience with her, I am firmly convinced that the times she did ask me to go someplace with her, especially in the past year, had nothing to do with any kind of friendship on her part. I am convinced that it was because she needed an ego boost, her own feel good, never mind what it did to me or that I had told her I didn’t want to be just someone she did favors for once in a while. The last time I told her it was going to be a real friendship or nothing, she got mad and said I was destroying what I had. She thought I should be thankful for the crumbs she threw to me once in a while.

She didn’t even like me enough to let me do things for her except sew, which she paid me for. At the beginning of our “friendship”, when she first decided to get a computer, she wanted someone to help her decide what to get, so I of course offered to help her with it but she didn’t take me up on the offer. When a little time went by and she still hadn’t gotten one, I said something to her about it and offered again to help her, and her response was that it looked like I was all (the help)she was going to have. Does anyone here besides me think that was, at best, an insensitive thing to say to someone?
I think her daughter finally helped her with it. Her daughter has a life with a husband and a full time job. I have all the time in the world. There’s computer things she’s been needing help with now and I think she’s waiting on her daughter to do it instead of letting me help her, even over the phone. I don’t know about the rest of you, but that doesn’t make a bit of sense to me unless she just plain doesn’t like me, and if that’s the case, why did she bother with me at all (I was leaving her alone) and ask me once in a blue moon to go some place with her?
I get the impression she is very penis oriented and would rather be by herself if she can’t be in the company of someone who has one, but if someone needs help with something and someone is willing to help with no strings attached, which I made plain to her, what does it matter what’s between their legs? :confused:

She hosts a weekly, half hour prayer service at the church. It consists of just silent meditation or prayer with some occasional Bible verses being read by her and low music played on a boombox. I’d gone to it a few times, but she never asked me, her “friend”, to attend (I think she asked other people) or why I didn’t attend more often. One time when I was there, she didn’t know how to get the boombox to work. I was standing right there with her and could have done it but she wouldn’t let me. Instead, she went downstairs to the office and got the secretary to come up and show her. When I asked why she got her to do it instead of letting me, she said it was “her job”. :confused:
If that makes sense to you all, then I guess I’m just stupid because it sure doesn’t to me. Whatever the reason, it made me feel like she didn’t think I was even good enough to accept help from. How close does a person have to be to someone to accept a simple bit of assistance like that from them?

She's often invited other people to join her Sunday school class, including my mother, but never once invited me, her “friend”, to come to her Sunday school class, even though she complained because more people weren’t attending. When I started attending that class, it wasn't by invitation.

Not too long ago when we were at the Walmart, the cart that she was pushing was pulling to the side so I was holding onto the side of it as we walked along to keep it from doing that. She said I was like a five year old kid holding on to the cart and that I “always” did that. Was that a nasty, insensitive thing to say to someone or was that ok? I could give you lots of other instances of hurtful or insensitive things she's said to me but I’m sure you get the picture.
I don’t see how a person who treats someone like she’s treated me can be called a friend by any stretch of the word, nor do I understand how she can teach and talk in Sunday school about how we (Christians) are to treat other people and asks God to help people with their burdens and then treat me the way she has and not only not want to help me with my burdens but added to them. Not only is that not being a friend, it’s against the way Jesus said we’re to treat other people and is, therefore, morally wrong. But she won’t get a chance to do it again. I'm an honest, clean, decent person and I’m tired of being used, bashed, and treated like I’m inferior because of who I am so I’m done with her and done with the church, any church (not Jesus, just church).

I really needed to talk about this and to get some input, so thanks for your time and responses.
I enjoy reading and talking with the people here. I'm glad I decided to stay.
It's been a help to me.

BlueGirl

[kara speltz]

Dear Blue Girl: I was in a similar situation for a number of years. I was in love with Martha who had been a nun and was considering returning to her order. We dated and I was very clear about how much I loved her. She too, it seemed to me, led me on to believe that something might actually come of this and that she returned the feelings. This went on for a couple of years, before I finally figured out that she was leading me on.

I was angry with her. But I began to understand a bit when someone got a crush on me, and I was very flattered and enjoyed the attention. I also knew that this woman wasn't someone I could really be serious about. So I tried to distance myself from her, but I also had to admit that when she began hanging out with someone else, I felt a bit sad and lonely. So I understood more of where my friend Martha had been coming from, when she continued to lead me on. It feels really good to know someone cares about you and it's hard to let it go.

All of this is to say, that letting go is the hardest but best choice. Hanging on to resentment, hurts us, but not them.

Kara

[BlueGirl]

Thank you, Kara, for sharing that with me. :)
My situation, though, is a little different from yours. The only thing she led me on about was friendship. In spite of how I felt about her and how I wished it could be, I never thought there was any chance of that happening, so all I asked for and what I was willing to settle for was friendship, a real friendship of the kind that exists between a lot of women, both gay and non-gay. It could have been a real nice relationship for both of us. If she didn't want that, then I wanted her to at least treat me with the consideration any human being should be treated with and respect my feelings and just leave me alone. Surely, that's not too much to ask of anyone. I was always taught that it's wrong to use someone for one's own selfish wants. I know that's true because that would be included in the Golden Rule. She sure wouldn't want anyone to treat her the way she's treated me. I can understand how someone's attention could make one feel good but it's selfish and cruel to use someone for that purpose if it's hurting someone and it says a lot about a person's character and integrity. That still doesn't explain or justify the hateful, hurtful things she has said and done to me. If she had just been a real friend and treated me the way a person should be treated, I would have gladly given her all the ego boosts she wanted.

I had a heterosexual male friend one time who wanted more than friendship from me which, of course, I couldn't give. And yes, it was a bit comforting to know that someone thought that much of me but I didn't use or mistreat him. I made it plain to him how I felt and that we could be friends if he wanted to be, and we were. We socialized together, watched TV together at his apartment sometimes, and could and did talk to each other about almost anything. I wish he was still here for me to talk with. He died from lung cancer in the early '80's and I miss him. :(

BlueGirl

[inca nitta]

Dear Blue Girl: I was in a similar situation for a number of years. I was in love with Martha who had been a nun and was considering returning to her order. We dated and I was very clear about how much I loved her. She too, it seemed to me, led me on to believe that something might actually come of this and that she returned the feelings. This went on for a couple of years, before I finally figured out that she was leading me on.

I was angry with her. But I began to understand a bit when someone got a crush on me, and I was very flattered and enjoyed the attention. I also knew that this woman wasn't someone I could really be serious about. So I tried to distance myself from her, but I also had to admit that when she began hanging out with someone else, I felt a bit sad and lonely. So I understood more of where my friend Martha had been coming from, when she continued to lead me on. It feels really good to know someone cares about you and it's hard to let it go.

All of this is to say, that letting go is the hardest but best choice. Hanging on to resentment, hurts us, but not them.

Kara

Kara,

Thanks for sharing your story. I don't understand why people do such things: act like they really care about you, so it makes you fall in love with them, but then, you realize that they just play games? This is so cruel. But I think you are right, you got to let such people go.