Education and Working for Change

[Gennee]

Ever since I started crossdressing my eyes have been opened to a world that was always ridiculed and marginalized. When it was revelaed that I was transgender it brought the struggle for respect and dignity into focus. I am part of that struggle and want to make a difference.

I needed to comprehend what it is to be transgender. The reasons why people change their gender are varied and complex at times. To say that it's a choice is inaccurate in my mind. Men and women actually do feel that they were born in the wrong body. I have a strong kinship with those who are transitioning or will transition. I believe if people were allowed to express who they are many suicides could have been prevented.

I have read much about gay and lesbian history. I love and admire those who came before me. Gay people have made many strides in past 20 years. Lesbians have made many strides also. More needs to be done. Bisexuals and transgender folks are more marginalized, even in the gay and lesbian communities. I invest time learning about each group and how I can be more supportive. The queer and intersexual communities are part of this diverse family of mine and deserve my support. I have concluded that being LGBTQI is NOT a lifestyle or a choice. Though, I only discovered my transgender identity a few years ago, I believe that it was always in me. It was the right time for me to come out.

My attitude about AIDS has gone from indifference to concern and support. I never knew how much this disease has affected some many people. I have a much better idea of how I can help and lend support.

I am with a group which is working to created grassroots media by and for poor and working people to address concerns in our communities. Systemic organizing is not a new concept but it works. It can be used to begin new ways of creating change which will affects the very people it is serving. I would love to see grassroots media for LGBTQI people and the issues that affects us. It would take all day to explain it but I'll save it for another post.

In summary, my eyes have opened to many things in the LGBTQI communities. I believe that we were born the way we are because there's a greater purpose in changing the way society views us as people. I will do all I can to support those suffereing from HIV/AIDS. I pray that a cure will be found soon. I pray that there will be empathy and support to those affected. I am committed to working to affect change.

It's interesting how my coming out has taught me much about all this but I am richer for it.

Gennee

[Zerbie]

Thanks for your concern and caring, Gennee.

The past few years have been a growing experience for me in several ways, finally getting to take activism to the streets (in some instances, literally) and to my congressional rep's office, etc.

In human terms, it has been a growing experience for me to finally meet transgender people who are 'out' -- I really had not had that experience before except for one individual I was friendly with years ago who honored me with being the first friend trusted with the coming-out story and process. The sad part being, I was the only person expected to be willing to try and understand.

Thank you for your emphasis on relationship and community. We're all sharing this life and it is up to us to make it heaven or hell for one another. Let's choose the best path through this world that is available -- or that we can create.

[Rick336]

We're all sharing this life and it is up to us to make it heaven or hell for one another. Let's choose the best path through this world that is available -- or that we can create.

Very well said Zerbie. I agree.


Great post Gennee.





Rick

[Sherrie Z]

Thanks, Gennee ... : )

I really appreciate your concern for others and your willingness to understand and support a wide range of diverse people and to work for positive change.

Thank you for sharing your coming out story. I've known just a few transgender people going back many years, but in the past year or so I've learned much more about transgender issues, and I have been encouraged that there has been a significant increase in positive media coverage and awareness of the challenges and issues facing the transgender community. I so appreciate the impressive strength and range of the transgender community, and how valuable it can be for all of us to have a better understanding of gender and diversity. Minority communities of all kinds are that much stronger when joined together, and the majority population can only benefit by a willingness to learn about and support minority communities.

I'm very glad you're here, and it's been really nice to see your friendly welcoming posts to so many people here.

Big HUGS to you! : )

[Vanessa White]

This has to be one of my favorite posts of yours, very eloquent and heartfelt.

Your journey has not been easy, I am sure, but how great for you to want to reach out to other groups as your continue on your own personal journey. I do believe that the better we come to know ourselves, the more able we are to understand the needs and concerns of others whom are oppressed. Sounds like part of it for you as well.

Tell us, do you believe that the LGBT community could do more to reach out or create an understanding for the those whom are transgendered? I admit, I have less of an understanding regarding transgender issues, so I try to keep learning and growing. Any input that you have would be helpful, for me and for others.

Thank you so much for your presence here. :love:

[Gennee]

This has to be one of my favorite posts of yours, very eloquent and heartfelt.

Your journey has not been easy, I am sure, but how great for you to want to reach out to other groups as your continue on your own personal journey. I do believe that the better we come to know ourselves, the more able we are to understand the needs and concerns of others whom are oppressed. Sounds like part of it for you as well.

Tell us, do you believe that the LGBT community could do more to reach out or create an understanding for the those whom are transgendered? I admit, I have less of an understanding regarding transgender issues, so I try to keep learning and growing. Any input that you have would be helpful, for me and for others.

Thank you so much for your presence here. :love:

Strides have been made. In 2002, someone told me that there was nothing for transgender people at the local community center. Now it is going and growing. I believe that all of us need to support one another because what affects one will affect the other sooner or later. It's important to educate ourselves and befriend those in other groups. I do know a couple of people who are female to male transsexuals, or transmen. I am also seeking to understand the needs of bisexuals.

Gennee

:love:

[Zerbie]

Strides have been made. In 2002, someone told me that there was nothing for transgender people at the local community center. Now it is going and growing. I believe that all of us need to support one another because what affects one will affect the other sooner or later. It's important to educate ourselves and befriend those in other groups. I do know a couple of people who are female to male transsexuals, or transmen. I am also seeking to understand the needs of bisexuals.

Gennee

:love:

My impression has been that there is some transphobia in the larger LGBT community, but I see it less and less as the years go by. I rarely notice any, at least none that is overt, in my local community. I attribute that to a fairly visible and active trans community in my area. Either that, or I am just insulated enough not to notice much transphobia, or I do not recognize it when I see it. I suspect I would, though.

Bisexuals? You mean, like me? :):p Well, Gennee, I would love it if people would stop announcing that I don't exist. :p

My request to the monosexuals of the world would be:

1. Don't tell me I don't exist.
2. Don't tell me my lifelong lack of orienting my romantic/sexual feeling towards only one gender or the other is "a phase." Unless phases last for entire lifetimes. . . :rolleyes:
3. Stop going around telling people to "Never date a bisexual; you can't trust those." It's an idiotic statement. Examine it for two seconds logically, please.

Well, and it would also be nice if people remembered the possibility of bisexual orientation more often. I sometimes hesitate to share myself fully even now, since I don't want to have to follow up something I say with charging headlong into explanations of how I did not go through "a phase" and how bisexuality really does exist. I find myself taking the circuitous route to letting myself be known, insinuating doubts and questions into peoples' minds but never stating things openly unless some absolutely golden opportunity presents itself.

[Sherrie Z]

This is a great thread with really important points being made. Each minority group within the wider group of all gender minorities has often misunderstood the others. I'm glad that here at Soulforce we have kind and open people who actually want to understand each other! : )

One encouraging note ... looking at those who have posted in this thread in particular ... we have representation from male, female, gay, lesbian, transgender, bisexual, straight, black, white, some age range, and some range in spiritual orientation, and perhaps more variations. And we're all here appreciating and learning from each other.

Thanks again, Gennee ... and thanks to everybody! : )

[Gennee]

My impression has been that there is some transphobia in the larger LGBT community, but I see it less and less as the years go by. I rarely notice any, at least none that is overt, in my local community. I attribute that to a fairly visible and active trans community in my area. Either that, or I am just insulated enough not to notice much transphobia, or I do not recognize it when I see it. I suspect I would, though.

Bisexuals? You mean, like me? :):p Well, Gennee, I would love it if people would stop announcing that I don't exist. :p

My request to the monosexuals of the world would be:

1. Don't tell me I don't exist.
2. Don't tell me my lifelong lack of orienting my romantic/sexual feeling towards only one gender or the other is "a phase." Unless phases last for entire lifetimes. . . :rolleyes:
3. Stop going around telling people to "Never date a bisexual; you can't trust those." It's an idiotic statement. Examine it for two seconds logically, please.

Well, and it would also be nice if people remembered the possibility of bisexual orientation more often. I sometimes hesitate to share myself fully even now, since I don't want to have to follow up something I say with charging headlong into explanations of how I did not go through "a phase" and how bisexuality really does exist. I find myself taking the circuitous route to letting myself be known, insinuating doubts and questions into peoples' minds but never stating things openly unless some absolutely golden opportunity presents itself.

Those are great requests,Zerbie. The second request I concur completely. People were saying transgender is a phase, also. There is more bisexual orientation than the greater society realizes. I learned so much about what it is to be gay from other gay folks. I conversed with a lesbian woman about her struggles. I shared with her to be happy with who she is.

Gennee

[Zerbie]

One encouraging note ... looking at those who have posted in this thread in particular ... we have representation from male, female, gay, lesbian, transgender, bisexual, straight, black, white, some age range, and some range in spiritual orientation, and perhaps more variations. And we're all here appreciating and learning from each other.

! : )

Heyyy!!! That's so cool! Hadn't noticed that.

Yeah, we have Christian, atheist, me, and I dunno what all else represented here. :lol:

Gennee, you really started somethin'! I think you have a talent for coalition-building, Gennee. :love:

[Sherrie Z]

Yes, we are a cool group here in Soulforce land ... hooray for coalitions! : )


And speaking of "going through phases" ... I know this isn't exactly the same thing as the stuff you all are faced with, but just for fun ... here's another example of the tendency people have to attribute "phases" to anything or anyone they don't quite understand.

When I first got involved in gender justice issues (just called "gay rights" back then even though it included a wider range than that), this was many years ago, long prior to supporters being called "allies" and when there weren't very many of us around, at least not many visible ones ... there were times when people assumed that I must be going through a phase, and that I would probably be coming out at any time, because it didn't even occur to them that a straight person would want to be a gay rights activist unless they were actually gay themselves ... both gays and straights sometimes thought this way back then. I intentionally kept my straight identity rather low key back then, unless I was formally talking to mostly straight groups about gender issues and where I thought that this might encourage them to realize that straight people could indeed publicly support gender minorities, so hopefully they could consider doing so too ... at any rate, it's several decades later and I'm still straight, LOL! : )

[Zerbie]

And speaking of "going through phases" ... I know this isn't exactly the same thing as the stuff you all are faced with, but just for fun ... here's another example of the tendency people have to attribute "phases" to anything or anyone they don't quite understand.

When I first got involved in gender justice issues (just called "gay rights" back then even though it included a wider range than that), this was many years ago, long prior to supporters being called "allies" and when there weren't very many of us around, at least not many visible ones ... there were times when people assumed that I must be going through a phase, and that I would probably be coming out at any time, because it didn't even occur to them that a straight person would want to be a gay rights activist unless they were actually gay themselves ... both gays and straights sometimes thought this way back then. I intentionally kept my straight identity rather low key back then, unless I was formally talking to mostly straight groups about gender issues and where I thought that this might encourage them to realize that straight people could indeed publicly support gender minorities, so hopefully they could consider doing so too ... at any rate, it's several decades later and I'm still straight, LOL! : )

Oh I totally hear ya!! That's why groups like PFLAG are important, and actions like the 7 Straight Nights are important. There is still some attitude that straight persons would not or should not care about these issues. Luckily, much less than even 10 years ago.

I remember the constant moving around of my apparent orientation (sometimes having crushes on a male and a female at the same time even) made me wonder where I belonged, and I felt like I could not or should not be involved as an activist unless I knew "what" I was. Otherwise I felt my advocacy lacked context.

Sherrie, did you ever run into other straight people accusing your gay friends of manipulating you? In the past, I had people in my life who, when I stepped into activism, accused my gay colleagues (including several I wasn't even close to!) of "brainwashing" me. They would announce "Those gay men in your opera workshop put you up to this! I know they did! They're confusing you, Zerbie, they've brainwashed you into agreeing with them!" Considering that one of the guys she was 'accusing' had actually pulled me aside and "advised" me strongly to get the h*ll out of "gay rights activism", I was doubly offended at the accusations. Yet the implication was that this desire could not possibly be my own.

[Sherrie Z]

Oh I totally hear ya!! That's why groups like PFLAG are important, and actions like the 7 Straight Nights are important. There is still some attitude that straight persons would not or should not care about these issues. Luckily, much less than even 10 years ago.

I remember the constant moving around of my apparent orientation (sometimes having crushes on a male and a female at the same time even) made me wonder where I belonged, and I felt like I could not or should not be involved as an activist unless I knew "what" I was. Otherwise I felt my advocacy lacked context.

Sherrie, did you ever run into other straight people accusing your gay friends of manipulating you? In the past, I had people in my life who, when I stepped into activism, accused my gay colleagues (including several I wasn't even close to!) of "brainwashing" me. They would announce "Those gay men in your opera workshop put you up to this! I know they did! They're confusing you, Zerbie, they've brainwashed you into agreeing with them!" Considering that one of the guys she was 'accusing' had actually pulled me aside and "advised" me strongly to get the h*ll out of "gay rights activism", I was doubly offended at the accusations. Yet the implication was that this desire could not possibly be my own.

Interesting ... we had different experiences but with the common thread of being under suspicion ... I sympathize with the stuff people tried to put on you ... and of course I'm glad you went ahead and got involved anyway! And I'm glad that you now know that, regardless of orientation, your activism has plenty of context!

I didn't have anyone thinking that gay friends were manipulating me, maybe because I pretty much just jumped in on my own without any specific influence from anyone in particular that I knew personally, so there was no sense of anyone around who could have been influencing me directly ... not that I hadn't known gay people, but my activism was not directly tied to anyone I had known previously.

But I had a whole range of reactions from people, with their varying degrees of discomfort with my choices ...

When somebody would indicate in some way that they thought I must actually be gay myself but I just didn't know or wouldn't say so ... on the one hand I was proud to be associated with gay people so that part was fine, but on the other hand, I didn't like the aspect that implied that straight people couldn't possibly be legitimately supporting of the gay community. And I also didn't like the part where they acted as though I didn't really know my own orientation, but somehow they did, LOL. Or that I could be a public vocal activist for the cause but that I wasn't willing to come out myself, or whatever they were thinking ... so my response was usually just to handle each situation diplomatically as it came, and to be polite and direct when needed, but mostly just to let everyone figure out over time that what I was saying and doing was legit.

Also, because I was single and didn't have "cover" (as if there weren't false covers around but that's another story) ... I was at risk of being considered to be a "fag hag" ... or suspect that I was hanging around with gay guys in order to convert them -- to have romantic intentions toward them. This was long ago before the level of awareness we have today, so some women would actually consider that as a possibility (gasp!). But I knew, and my gay friends knew, that this was the furthest thing from any chance of ever happening ... and yet because at that time there were a lot more straight women actually attempting this, I had to be extra careful to never give the slightest appearance that I would ever even think that way. Also, this was all "pre-Margaret Cho" with her co-opting of that derogatory term into something more positive.

All that said ... ironically, there were a few times when gay men, out of curiosity, would themselves propose some type of involvement (?!!) -- but I always always always politely declined. And I always considered it a huge compliment when lesbians, not knowing that I was straight, would propose some type of involvement ... but again, I always politely declined.

I could continue with more ways that various people reacted, misunderstood, implied this or that, assumed this or that ... but over time most people caught on that what I was doing was legit. And now we're in a time where there are many more allies around, and many more people understanding these kinds of issues, and many more wonderful coalitions developing all the time! : )

[Vanessa White]

This discussion is so interesting to me. Before I started spending a great deal of time here at SF, I really had no idea the extent to which there are persons in the heterosexual community who are willing to advocate on behalf of the LGBT community, just because it is the right thing to do. It is very heartening and encouraging to me.

Along those lines, when I begin to organize myself and others more formally here in PA about the marriage amendment issue, I plan on tapping greatly into the heterosexual community to gain support against a constitutional amendment. Actually, I believe that I will have better luck with reaching and utilizing allies more than my own community, sadly. My fellow gays and lesbians just aren't willing to "come out", so to speak, on this issue.

Zerb and Sherrie, and Gennee, thanks for being who you are. Ally just doesn't seem to cover it, in describing your efforts on our behalf, and I am grateful to all of you........... :love:

[Gennee]

Interesting ... we had different experiences but with the common thread of being under suspicion ... I sympathize with the stuff people tried to put on you ... and of course I'm glad you went ahead and got involved anyway! And I'm glad that you now know that, regardless of orientation, your activism has plenty of context!

I didn't have anyone thinking that gay friends were manipulating me, maybe because I pretty much just jumped in on my own without any specific influence from anyone in particular that I knew personally, so there was no sense of anyone around who could have been influencing me directly ... not that I hadn't known gay people, but my activism was not directly tied to anyone I had known previously.

But I had a whole range of reactions from people, with their varying degrees of discomfort with my choices ...

When somebody would indicate in some way that they thought I must actually be gay myself but I just didn't know or wouldn't say so ... on the one hand I was proud to be associated with gay people so that part was fine, but on the other hand, I didn't like the aspect that implied that straight people couldn't possibly be legitimately supporting of the gay community. And I also didn't like the part where they acted as though I didn't really know my own orientation, but somehow they did, LOL. Or that I could be a public vocal activist for the cause but that I wasn't willing to come out myself, or whatever they were thinking ... so my response was usually just to handle each situation diplomatically as it came, and to be polite and direct when needed, but mostly just to let everyone figure out over time that what I was saying and doing was legit.

Also, because I was single and didn't have "cover" (as if there weren't false covers around but that's another story) ... I was at risk of being considered to be a "fag hag" ... or suspect that I was hanging around with gay guys in order to convert them -- to have romantic intentions toward them. This was long ago before the level of awareness we have today, so some women would actually consider that as a possibility (gasp!). But I knew, and my gay friends knew, that this was the furthest thing from any chance of ever happening ... and yet because at that time there were a lot more straight women actually attempting this, I had to be extra careful to never give the slightest appearance that I would ever even think that way. Also, this was all "pre-Margaret Cho" with her co-opting of that derogatory term into something more positive.

All that said ... ironically, there were a few times when gay men, out of curiosity, would themselves propose some type of involvement (?!!) -- but I always always always politely declined. And I always considered it a huge compliment when lesbians, not knowing that I was straight, would propose some type of involvement ... but again, I always politely declined.

I could continue with more ways that various people reacted, misunderstood, implied this or that, assumed this or that ... but over time most people caught on that what I was doing was legit. And now we're in a time where there are many more allies around, and many more people understanding these kinds of issues, and many more wonderful coalitions developing all the time! : )

I once had a gay man ask me out for a date. I had a prior engagement and I declined.

Gennee

[Zerbie]

Interesting ... we had different experiences but with the common thread of being under suspicion ... I sympathize with the stuff people tried to put on you ... and of course I'm glad you went ahead and got involved anyway! And I'm glad that you now know that, regardless of orientation, your activism has plenty of context!


Thanks. The activism was the one thing I never doubted or questioned.

When I first started getting involved, it cost me a lot of friends. Lost some straight friends who were homophobic, but what perplexed me more at the time was that gay colleagues/acquaintances also stopped associating with me. Those things actually caused me to be a 'closet' activist for a while, never letting on because I expected rejection from straight and gay alike. That was weird.

Then the phenomenon seemed to completely stop after a while (few years). I think, due to a change in the way I presented myself. The most recent time a gay colleague tried to "warn" me to get out of activism on the grounds that I was presumably "unaware that gay rights are controversial" (yes, that is what he said:lol:,) and therefore dangerous, I thanked him for his concern and shared some stories of encounters I had survived in the past. Told him I knew just what I was getting into and followed that up with specific reasons why I was speaking out on the current issue. His face lit up with surprise and interest. After that, he stopped dropping whispered "warnings".



I didn't have anyone thinking that gay friends were manipulating me, maybe because I pretty much just jumped in on my own without any specific influence from anyone in particular that I knew personally, so there was no sense of anyone around who could have been influencing me directly

Me too! That's what angered me so much about the assumption that someone put me up to it. There was no reason why anyone should think the idea was anything other than my own. In fact, I had been searching for ways to get involved since kindergarten --- freakin' kindergarten! :p:lol: There was no excuse. It's just one of those ridiculous things homophobes sometimes say I guess. . . .

... not that I hadn't known gay people, but my activism was not directly tied to anyone I had known previously.

But I had a whole range of reactions from people, with their varying degrees of discomfort with my choices ...

When somebody would indicate in some way that they thought I must actually be gay myself but I just didn't know or wouldn't say so ... on the one hand I was proud to be associated with gay people so that part was fine, but on the other hand, I didn't like the aspect that implied that straight people couldn't possibly be legitimately supporting of the gay community.

Heck yeah. That's an unhealthy assumption. Shows how very little they had thought about what the issue really is about.

And I also didn't like the part where they acted as though I didn't really know my own orientation, but somehow they did,

::rolleyes:


Or that I could be a public vocal activist for the cause but that I wasn't willing to come out myself, or whatever they were thinking ... so my response was usually just to handle each situation diplomatically as it came, and to be polite and direct when needed, but mostly just to let everyone figure out over time that what I was saying and doing was legit.

You're right not to waste energy on justifications. That's energy that could be used towards making things better.

There's always going to be somebody with an objection. It just bothers me so much when it comes from "our side." Sounds like that may have been part of what irritated you a little. Maybe?


Also, because I was single and didn't have "cover" (as if there weren't false covers around but that's another story) ... I was at risk of being considered to be a "fag hag" ... or suspect that I was hanging around with gay guys in order to convert them -- to have romantic intentions toward them.

:eek::eek: Arghh!! Oh, that's horrible!

I knew a woman who did that. She seemed to have an electric sense for which guys had the hardest time standing up for themselves and/or setting boundaries. She was so disrespectful and mean.

Yet she used to say all the time "I LOVE gay men!" It was really hard to keep biting my lip to keep from saying, "No, you HATE them.:mad:" By her actions, she really did.
Interestingly, as much as she claimed to "love" gay men, she expressed a vitriolic hatred for lesbians. Got me thinkin', it did:inspector:. When it wasn't just plain scary!

Oh, of COURSE you wouldn't want people thinking you were up to crap like that! :sick: Before like that is like a kind of psychic rape. :mad:




All that said ... ironically, there were a few times when gay men, out of curiosity, would themselves propose some type of involvement (?!!) -- but I always always always politely declined.

:lol: Smart woman. :agree:

The first person I got involved with was a gay (or bisexual?) man, obviously having conflicts regarding his sexuality - conflicts he didn't clue me in on. It ended in WWIII. I was a teenager and I never thought that would happen to me, b/c I thought I would create a 'safe ground' psychologically for anyone close to open up about stuff like that. But the thing is, making yourself willing and open doesn't mean that people are going to take you up on any available 'listening space.' That's up to them. That man had an agenda to get married to prove he was "normal." Luckily, I knew there was something insincere about his (numerous, increasingly desperate) proposals. :rolleyes:



And I always considered it a huge compliment when lesbians, not knowing that I was straight, would propose some type of involvement ... but again, I always politely declined.

:D:DI would, too! Though, what holds me back is that I've already found my partner. Otherwise, I'd be more than just "complimented." :love:

And now we're in a time where there are many more allies around, and many more people understanding these kinds of issues, and many more wonderful coalitions developing all the time! : )

There really are more visible straight friends. Are they more numerous? Or just more visible? I know folks in their 70s, 80s who have been lifelong "allies." Looking back in history, one finds there were "allies" generations ago, even centuries ago. Maybe we're all just finally coming together. 'Bout time. :love: :D




Along those lines, when I begin to organize myself and others more formally here in PA about the marriage amendment issue, I plan on tapping greatly into the heterosexual community to gain support against a constitutional amendment. Actually, I believe that I will have better luck with reaching and utilizing allies more than my own community, sadly.

You will, I suspect. Not just in terms of motivation, but in terms of numbers. You NEED the straight people voting against it. Let them know the kinds of ramifications of marriage amendments (like what's going on in MI, OH) and they will vote against it. If people know what it's really about, most of them will vote no. Only the hard-line ideologues will vote yes on this if everyone hears the truth about the marriage amendment.


My fellow gays and lesbians just aren't willing to "come out", so to speak, on this issue.

Zerb and Sherrie, and Gennee, thanks for being who you are. Ally just doesn't seem to cover it, in describing your efforts on our behalf, and I am grateful to all of you........... :love:

I don't like the word, either. I don't think of myself as an ally. I think of myself as "one of." That this is my community. It's all a "we" here, not a me plus you. Besides, 'allies' sounds like we're discussing WWII. :rolleyes:

A trans man said to me once "You have no idea what it means to have an ally like you." I was deeply moved, but also felt suddenly distanced from him in a way I had not felt until he used the word "ally." So I replied thank you, but y'know, I think of myself as a part of this community - that I belong to it.

[Sherrie Z]

This discussion is so interesting to me. Before I started spending a great deal of time here at SF, I really had no idea the extent to which there are persons in the heterosexual community who are willing to advocate on behalf of the LGBT community, just because it is the right thing to do. It is very heartening and encouraging to me.

Along those lines, when I begin to organize myself and others more formally here in PA about the marriage amendment issue, I plan on tapping greatly into the heterosexual community to gain support against a constitutional amendment. Actually, I believe that I will have better luck with reaching and utilizing allies more than my own community, sadly. My fellow gays and lesbians just aren't willing to "come out", so to speak, on this issue.

Zerb and Sherrie, and Gennee, thanks for being who you are. Ally just doesn't seem to cover it, in describing your efforts on our behalf, and I am grateful to all of you........... :love:


Thanks, Vanessa!

And thanks for being who you are, I'm grateful to you! : )

Thanks to all of us here ... you, Gennee, Rick, Zerbie ... and everyone involved with Soulforce ... everyone who is willing to build coalitions to work toward justice for everybody.

I'm wishing you well on your efforts in PA ... I'm guessing that the LGBT people you're discussing might hesitate to get involved because of the risk of the potentially dangerous consequences of coming out and/or coming out more widely to more people. Even though there is risk involved for anyone taking a stand on a controversial issue, in a sense it can be easier to stand up for someone else than for yourself. Straight people who get involved may be likely to be misunderstood or hassled by some people they know but rarely would they risk totally losing their families or jobs or personal safety. It's understandable why some people might hesitate, but I think that the benefits of more and more people coming out and standing up for issues of justice usually outweighs the risks. Each person has to consider their specific situations in deciding how and when to get involved, and hopefully you'll find many who will! Please keep us posted! : )

[Sherrie Z]

Thanks for the response, Zerbie! Lots of great stuff here ... I'm tempted to respond more now but it's getting really late here, so I'll be back sometime soon ... meanwhile I'm saving this space so I can come back and modify this post with more specific responses to your interesting comments, LOL ... : )

***********************************************

Several days later, I'm finally back ... apologies for the delay ... thanks for waiting, LOL : )

For some reason I'm having trouble getting the italic or the color option to work, so I'll just type in the designations of the excerpts and responses.


Zerbie said:

When I first started getting involved, it cost me a lot of friends. Lost some straight friends who were homophobic, but what perplexed me more at the time was that gay colleagues/acquaintances also stopped associating with me. Those things actually caused me to be a 'closet' activist for a while, never letting on because I expected rejection from straight and gay alike. That was weird.

Sherrie responds:

Yes, that really was weird ... unless maybe some of them were concerned about being outed by being publicly associated with someone who was vocal about LGBT issues? Were they out in some settings but not in others?

And by the way, I love that you were concerned with these issues since kindergarten! Go, Zerbie!


Zerbie said:

There's always going to be somebody with an objection. It just bothers me so much when it comes from "our side." Sounds like that may have been part of what irritated you a little. Maybe?

Sherrie responds:

That would have bothered me more, but in my circumstance, it wasn't really clear that they were necessarily on "our side" per se ... these were straight people who weren't really close friends so it wasn't too much of an issue for me ... though it did bother me in principle that they were implying in some way that I might not know my own orientation (but they somehow did, LOL) or that I was representing myself in some sort of false way. In some ways I was amused, in some ways frustrated, depending on the specific context, but I simply clarified whatever needed clarifying, and tried to shift the discussion in a positive direction, and I knew that eventually "time would tell" and that they would probably eventually catch on, LOL : )

Another aspect that was frustrating ... in some cases, these were people who otherwise presented themselves as socially aware and active with human rights in general, but they somehow had hesitations or suspicions about public support, or at least enthusiastic public support for the gay community. The inconsistency or hypocrisy of that aspect bothered me ... and in those cases it wasn't always clear whether or not they were actually on "our side" per se. I suspect that they may have been concerned about "guilt by association" and were worried that being too supportive of LGBT issues would cause people to assume that they were gay, as if that were something bad ... or perhaps they thought it was something bad, and maybe they had mixed feelings about thinking that way ... in any case, I felt that their "suspicion" of me was telling about them in some way.

Fortunately, in general -- even though I also lost (and/or had some degree of strain on relationships of) some straight friends over my activism -- most of the people I discussed this with were relatively understanding about it, and some were even very supportive.


Zerbie said:

There really are more visible straight friends. Are they more numerous? Or just more visible?

Sherrie responds:

Good question ... probably both ... but I do get the sense that society in general has moved hugely in a more positive direction compared to when I first got involved. And the gay community has moved forward too. Lots of good progress, and lots of coalitions now that didn't exist nearly as much back then.


[Zerbie quoting Vanessa]

Vanessa said:

Zerb and Sherrie, and Gennee, thanks for being who you are. Ally just doesn't seem to cover it, in describing your efforts on our behalf, and I am grateful to all of you...........

Zerbie replied to Vanessa:

I don't like the word, either. I don't think of myself as an ally. I think of myself as "one of." That this is my community. It's all a "we" here, not a me plus you. Besides, 'allies' sounds like we're discussing WWII.

A trans man said to me once "You have no idea what it means to have an ally like you." I was deeply moved, but also felt suddenly distanced from him in a way I had not felt until he used the word "ally." So I replied thank you, but y'know, I think of myself as a part of this community - that I belong to it.


Sherrie responds:

Thanks again to Vanessa!

To Zerbie -- I'm very glad for that special connection you had with your friend, though I also understand your hesitation at his assumption of your "otherness" ... as we all know, individuals who are part of groups that have been often misunderstood and discriminated against would understandably come from a sense of "otherness" even with those whom they know support them. And yet you were/are very much both a part of the LGBT rainbow community together, though representing different colors/experiences of that rainbow.

On your interesting comments about the word "ally" ... I have had a different experience of that designation, though I do understand and appreciate your hesitations and see how that makes a lot of sense, especially when our goal is to move toward inclusion and coalition building.

I really appreciate the sense of inclusion that is inherent in Vanessa's and your comments about the word "allies" ... I think my different response to being described as an "ally" is mostly because I have had a different type of connection than yours with the LGBT community. By definition, you are specifically included in the LGBT designation, and I'm actually not ... so you are "one of" in a way that I can't be ... though I do feel very much at home within the LGBT community, often moreso than within non-LGBT communities.

Here at Soulforce we are all very much part of the same community regardless, but for myself -- in circumstances outside of Soulforce, in connecting with the LGBT community in general -- since I am technically by definition an "outsider" -- my inclusion cannot be assumed, but is by necessity dependent upon specifically being welcomed, either informally or by an officially stated welcoming and inclusion of allies. I have had wonderful experiences of being welcomed, and I have felt very much a part of the various LGBT communities that I have joined.

My usual tendency is to keep my identity very low key ... it feels weird to specifically identify as heterosexual and/or non-trans -- in social settings I don't usually think so much in terms of labels per se ... but in this case, it is necessary for this particular discussion.

When I first got involved with LGBT activism, there were so few heterosexuals who were overtly public about their support that we were almost unheard of, and even somewhat suspect or at least initially confusing to others. At that time, there was no actual common usage designation of "allies" per se ... there was a sense that there were some "outsiders" who were supportive, so in a way the advent of a common usage word with positive meaning and intent was a nice change because it indicated that we existed, and that we actually existed in big enough numbers to rate a designation.

By the way, PFLAG did exist around the time that I began my activism ... and I was glad for their existence. They are a wonderful and necessary group with their own important goals and context. One of my gay friends asked me to attend a PFLAG meeting with him, and I cheered for PFLAG when they marched by during Pride parades. But for myself, my focus was a bit different, and my involvement occurred within LGBT organizations and social settings, as an individual. I joined existing LGBT groups where straight people were very much in the minority.

As to my "outsider" status, even though over the years I have been very warmly welcomed by many individuals and organizations, in social settings and activism settings ... I was always aware that whether or not I publicly identified as hetero/non-trans, and whether or not I was assumed to be lesbian by virtue of my visible support and social contacts, I still knew that as a straight person I had access to "heterosexual privilege" (much in the same way that I have access to caucasian privilege and american citizenship privilege and so on) in a way that my coalition partners did not. Of course I don't think anybody should have more privilege than anyone else, and I specifically attempted to minimize that type of unfair privilege ... but due to the limitations of our society, it's there.

And yet, all that aside ... as you stated, we really are a "we" ... the goal and often the reality is that we are a wonderful coalition of mutual support. Celebrating the different specific colors of the rainbow is great ... and being part of a united rainbow is great ... so here's to our continued progress toward more and stronger and more inclusive coalitions!

NOTE: In this post, I've been using the LGBT designation -- I'm aware of the discussions about adding additional letters, whether or not that is necessary, or whether "gender variant" might be a simpler and more inclusive definition. Also, I would be fine either way with keeping or changing the word "ally" to something else that doesn't remind people of WWII, LOL. For a lot of reasons, I really wish there was a better word than "straight" to describe heterosexuals ... at any rate, another discussion for another day! : )

[Sherrie Z]

As you can see, I updated my post above ... since I had updated an existing post, I also had to post this additional message in order for the thread update to appear ... that is, for the General Discussion topic listings to reflect that a new message had been posted here, LOL : )

[Zerbie]

Oh wow, what a meaty post!! Sherrie, that's great. I will definitely be back when I've got an hour to muse things over - and look forward to continuing this conversation. For the moment, there are things I want to get to while it's still morning in sunny Arizona, and not 100 degrees yet. :D:D:D

Cheeri-o. Be back soon. :wave: :D

[Gennee]

Oh wow, what a meaty post!! Sherrie, that's great. I will definitely be back when I've got an hour to muse things over - and look forward to continuing this conversation. For the moment, there are things I want to get to while it's still morning in sunny Arizona, and not 100 degrees yet. :D:D:D

Cheeri-o. Be back soon. :wave: :D

I would love to get in on this conversation, too.

Gennee

[Zerbie]

I would love to get in on this conversation, too.

Gennee

Type away!! :)

[Sherrie Z]

I would love to get in on this conversation, too.

Gennee


Yay! As Zerbie said, type away! Please jump right in ... you inspired this discussion, and we would love to hear more from you!

Most of my comments here have related to my earlier experiences with activism from several decades ago. Since that time, I have learned a lot more about the transgender community, and I have been very encouraged with the progress I've been seeing more recently regarding new coalitions being built between the various members of the gender variant communities. You've described some of the work that you've been doing already and it sounds great ... please share more with us about your ideas and experiences, and thanks Gennee! : )

[Gennee]

The organization I volunteer with is called the 'Womens Press Collective'. It is an all-volunteer organization dedicated to creating independent media by and for low-income and working class people and low-income working women in particular. Mainstream media is more concerned about their shareholders and advertisers than they are working and poor people. Our interests and concerns are not covered by mainstream media and that's why we need to create our own.

Our members learn things like publishing, promotion production, and article writing. Members are able to produce and publish materials such posters, business cards, and even books with this hands-on free of charge benefit. I am the Volunteer Coordinator with the job of recruiting new volunteers and maintaining relationships with our present and past volunteers. I give orientation to new volunteers and immmediately have them involved with the many activities WPC has.

I mentioned earlier about systematic organizing. As I said earlier, it is not a new concept. It came about in the 1960's when grassroots organizations formed during the civil rights movement. I has evolved over the years and it works! It can be transferred into any community, city, and in any setting.
I have met a number of organizers from cities around the country. There are many poor working people who lack such things as medical care and decent living and working conditions. I can see this working in two area of particular interest to me: the education system and LGBT issues.

I am a part time organizer. I had been with Women's Press Collective for three months. The operations manager wants me to try full time organizing for a week or two. I may do this.

I have always read alternative news and seek my news from alternative sources almost exclusively. It was after the 9/11 attacks that I began doing this. Mainstream media was rehashing the same stuff for days and I was fed up. One reason I joined WPC is that I am involved with people one to one. There's much on the job training and I can help build something fro the ground up.

I have given you a lot to digest. If you have any questions, feel free to ask.

Gennee

:love:

[Zerbie]

***********************************************

Zerbie said:

When I first started getting involved, it cost me a lot of friends. Lost some straight friends who were homophobic, but what perplexed me more at the time was that gay colleagues/acquaintances also stopped associating with me.

Sherrie responds:

Yes, that really was weird ... unless maybe some of them were concerned about being outed by being publicly associated with someone who was vocal about LGBT issues? Were they out in some settings but not in others?

Given that most of these people were not best friend types, but colleagues, they were equally associated with all manner of people of whom I was only one. Most of those who were discouraging however, were older than me, and I think they were protecting me. But all it did was give me the message that I should just put my activism in a closet around them. So I kept it in a closet from gay folk generally.

Later, I met some gay folk who objected that I cared too much about it. One guy said to me "Why do you care so much about gay rights? I'm gay, and *I* don't care."

Implication being that therefore, I should not.


And by the way, I love that you were concerned with these issues since kindergarten! Go, Zerbie!

:D Thank you, Sherrie!


Sherrie responds:

That would have bothered me more, but in my circumstance, it wasn't really clear that they were necessarily on "our side" per se ... these were straight people who weren't really close friends so it wasn't too much of an issue for me ... though it did bother me in principle that they were implying in some way that I might not know my own orientation (but they somehow did, LOL)

Yeah, that's ignorant and ridiculous.


Another aspect that was frustrating ... in some cases, these were people who otherwise presented themselves as socially aware and active with human rights in general, but they somehow had hesitations or suspicions about public support, or at least enthusiastic public support for the gay community. The inconsistency or hypocrisy of that aspect bothered me ... and in those cases it wasn't always clear whether or not they were actually on "our side" per se.

I think that's where education comes in. They were probably inculcated in the belief that gay people are "different," that homosexuality was an illness, and therefore that these were not civil rights issues.

During the networking for last year's 7SN, I met an older gay pastor who had fought during the civil rights and women's equality movements. He told me with tears in his eyes how lonely he had felt and how he questioned his personal worth when none of those people he had worked with ever stood up for him. That it was so difficult to stand up for himself when not one friend would stand with him. Hearing him tell me that was heartbreaking.



Fortunately, in general -- even though I also lost (and/or had some degree of strain on relationships of) some straight friends over my activism -- most of the people I discussed this with were relatively understanding about it, and some were even very supportive.

That's great. I think we're finding more and more people who understand what the actual issues are. Considering that merely a decade or so ago it was like trying to talk to a brick wall, things are better.

Zerbie said:

There really are more visible straight friends. Are they more numerous? Or just more visible?

Sherrie responds:

Good question ... probably both ... but I do get the sense that society in general has moved hugely in a more positive direction compared to when I first got involved. And the gay community has moved forward too. Lots of good progress, and lots of coalitions now that didn't exist nearly as much back then.

Yes, you're right. About time! I hope this is progress we hold on to and build upon.

[Zerbie quoting Vanessa]

Vanessa said:

Zerb and Sherrie, and Gennee, thanks for being who you are. Ally just doesn't seem to cover it, in describing your efforts on our behalf, and I am grateful to all of you...........

Zerbie replied to Vanessa:

I don't like the word, either. I don't think of myself as an ally. I think of myself as "one of." That this is my community. It's all a "we" here, not a me plus you. Besides, 'allies' sounds like we're discussing WWII.

A trans man said to me once "You have no idea what it means to have an ally like you." I was deeply moved, but also felt suddenly distanced from him in a way I had not felt until he used the word "ally." So I replied thank you, but y'know, I think of myself as a part of this community - that I belong to it.


Sherrie responds:

Thanks again to Vanessa!

To Zerbie -- I'm very glad for that special connection you had with your friend, though I also understand your hesitation at his assumption of your "otherness" ... as we all know, individuals who are part of groups that have been often misunderstood and discriminated against would understandably come from a sense of "otherness" even with those whom they know support them. And yet you were/are very much both a part of the LGBT rainbow community together, though representing different colors/experiences of that rainbow.

On your interesting comments about the word "ally" ... I have had a different experience of that designation, though I do understand and appreciate your hesitations and see how that makes a lot of sense, especially when our goal is to move toward inclusion and coalition building.

I really appreciate the sense of inclusion that is inherent in Vanessa's and your comments about the word "allies" ... I think my different response to being described as an "ally" is mostly because I have had a different type of connection than yours with the LGBT community. By definition, you are specifically included in the LGBT designation, and I'm actually not ... so you are "one of" in a way that I can't be ... though I do feel very much at home within the LGBT community, often moreso than within non-LGBT communities.
It's amazing I hadn't quite seen that before. That does make sense. Until we modify it to the LGBTQSA community, which one does sometimes see. In that alphabet soup, you ARE included, but by the designation "ally."

I think you have explained my objections to the word "ally" very well, so that it sinks in for me. Of course I would object to being called "ally," because that labels me an outsider to a community to which I feel I belong. For you, if it is not, we almost need to have a word like 'ally' in order to acknowledge that you're there.



Here at Soulforce we are all very much part of the same community regardless, but for myself -- in circumstances outside of Soulforce, in connecting with the LGBT community in general -- since I am technically by definition an "outsider" -- my inclusion cannot be assumed, but is by necessity dependent upon specifically being welcomed, either informally or by an officially stated welcoming and inclusion of allies. I have had wonderful experiences of being welcomed, and I have felt very much a part of the various LGBT communities that I have joined.

My usual tendency is to keep my identity very low key ... it feels weird to specifically identify as heterosexual and/or non-trans -- in social settings I don't usually think so much in terms of labels per se ... but in this case, it is necessary for this particular discussion.

I still sometimes feel like I've been mis-categorized. At protests and prides I've been assumed by most to be lesbian. But most of the time once I get talking, I mention my husband and then it's assumed I'm straight. I have found myself deliberately getting more low-key about my relationship at times while I tried to figure out what the 'water temperature' is in different environments. Less so the more active I am, but incorrect assumptions persist.

During 7SN last year I gave a lot of interviews. I commented that it is "abhorrent that we get to vote on our neighbors' civil rights," referring to ballot initiatives. The "we" I used meant "voters." The reporter inserted a clarification in the final article, thus quoted me as having said, "It's abhorrent that we straight people get to vote on our neighbors' civil rights." Only that's not the "we" I was referencing, especially since I'm not straight and do not refer to myself as such. (Except sometimes I say I'm "straight-ish.":p)

Maybe I just need one of those tee shirts that says "No one knows I'm bisexual." Wear it every day for a couple months, that oughtta take care of all the assumptions. Only I bet they'd be replaced by new ones, like the assumption that my orientation somehow means we have an open marriage. :mad:



When I first got involved with LGBT activism, there were so few heterosexuals who were overtly public about their support that we were almost unheard of, and even somewhat suspect or at least initially confusing to others. At that time, there was no actual common usage designation of "allies" per se ... there was a sense that there were some "outsiders" who were supportive, so in a way the advent of a common usage word with positive meaning and intent was a nice change because it indicated that we existed, and that we actually existed in big enough numbers to rate a designation.


What an excellent, excellent point! :flower2::award: And what a positive way of looking at it. :love::love: There I was wondering why the distance. Looking at it this way, it's actually quite welcoming and inclusive that there is a term there.


By the way, PFLAG did exist around the time that I began my activism ... and I was glad for their existence. They are a wonderful and necessary group with their own important goals and context. One of my gay friends asked me to attend a PFLAG meeting with him, and I cheered for PFLAG when they marched by during Pride parades. But for myself, my focus was a bit different, and my involvement occurred within LGBT organizations and social settings, as an individual. I joined existing LGBT groups where straight people were very much in the minority.

I hear ya. PFLAG is great and irreplaceable. It wasn't for me either, tho, at least it hasn't been so far. Like you, I wanted to be where the focus was predominantly by, for, about LGBT folk. For whatever reasons, I have always been far more at ease socially in environments predominantly gay/lesbian than in predominantly straight communities.

At the time I was first getting involved as an adult, I didn't find PFLAG political enough, either. It was more a family connection/support type group.


As to my "outsider" status, even though over the years I have been very warmly welcomed by many individuals and organizations, in social settings and activism settings ... I was always aware that whether or not I publicly identified as hetero/non-trans, and whether or not I was assumed to be lesbian by virtue of my visible support and social contacts, I still knew that as a straight person I had access to "heterosexual privilege" (much in the same way that I have access to caucasian privilege and american citizenship privilege and so on) in a way that my coalition partners did not.

Ohhhhh yeah. Me too. As a bisexual, I sometimes feel like some kind of double agent. :eek:

How come when I'm dating a girl I'm "immoral" and tearing apart the fabric of civilization, but when I'm dating a boy, then I'm "moral?" and not tearing apart the fabric of civilization? It's still me. I'm the same person doing the EXACT SAME things. Switch the partner and my entire worth takes a swing to the other side of the pendulum? Let's get real folks: either I'm scum of the earth or I'm not, but I embody both ends of the spectrum you're depending those decisions upon, and It Can't Be Both.

I think I prove how arbitrary hetero-centric privilege is. And I'm very aware of it. Every time I mention my husband to a stranger I wonder if I would hesitate to mention a female partner, and a majority of the time, yes, I would have hesitated.



And yet, all that aside ... as you stated, we really are a "we" ... the goal and often the reality is that we are a wonderful coalition of mutual support. Celebrating the different specific colors of the rainbow is great ... and being part of a united rainbow is great ... so here's to our continued progress toward more and stronger and more inclusive coalitions!
:D:lol:
Yes, that's true, too. We are a fairly cohesive group, and becoming more so. Inclusive coalitions enlarge the sense of who the "we" identity is. :p


In this post, I've been using the LGBT designation -- I'm aware of the discussions about adding additional letters, whether or not that is necessary, or whether "gender variant" might be a simpler and more inclusive definition.

I know this is incredibly unpopular and totally non representative of lesbians, transpeople, bisexuals, and anyone else I'm leaving out, but, rattling off that whole long list or reciting letters that resemble sandwich-name abbreviations feels really cumbersome to me. I'm all for just saying "gay" with the inclusion of all those other letters implicit, like an umbrella term. Even though I know each group had to fight hard for inclusion, (I still remember the shock and amazement I felt when one day "lesbian and gay" suddenly overnight became LGB) so I acknowledge my position is totally un-cool. I guess we can't just say "gay," though oftentimes, I still do. :shield: I also happen to like "queer," but that word bothers many. :( So we're left with the alphabet sandwich. :o

Also, I would be fine either way with keeping or changing the word "ally" to something else that doesn't remind people of WWII, LOL. F : )

How about just saying 'friends?' Why don't we say that? How did we wind up with 'allies?'

Or I guess we could extend the sandwich: the LGBTQSA community. :confused: :o Or, the longest one I've ever heard of: the LGBTQQISA community.

Oh, god. Let's just go back to "gay." :rolleyes:
:rofl:
:p
Uh-oh, am I in trouble now? :shield:

[Sherrie Z]

Wow, Gennee! The work you are doing sounds wonderful ... thank you so much for telling us more about it!

We can all learn so much by borrowing from the methods of grassroots organizing and human rights movements that have gone on before ... to go as far as possible to bring about the type of change we're all seeking requires just the type of organizing that you have described. Various methods and approaches work for different settings and different times of course, but your organization has built on some great ideas that have worked in the past and the work of your group is an excellent example for all of us now. And of course the alternative press is crucial to help bring about these important changes.

A great big BRAVO to you and the WPC for your much needed efforts! : )

Hugs,

Sherrie

[Sherrie Z]

Thanks, Zerbie! I appreciate your wonderful response ... for the moment I'll just say a quick thanks with more comments coming soon ... I really like the term "friends" ... especially as a Quaker I particularly like that word, LOL!

Meanwhile, I thought of you and everyone at Soulforce today when I was in the Castro! Though it's so late now as I type this, it actually was yesterday, LOL ... with the recent court decision regarding gay marriage, it was cool to see evidence at the main intersection there ... somebody had put up a handmade sign that said: "Equal finally means Equal" ... except that the first "equal" was actually an equal sign (as in "=") and the bottom "equal" was an equal sign too but it also had little rainbow flags drawn all over it ... and there was an actual small rainbow flag and a bunch of roses attached. Also I saw a sign in one of the restaurant windows there that said something like "hire us to cater your wedding" ... stores and wedding planners here are already setting up for the rush of weddings that will follow soon. Yay! Wheeeeeeeeee! : )

Hugs,

Sherrie

[Gennee]

Wow, Gennee! The work you are doing sounds wonderful ... thank you so much for telling us more about it!

We can all learn so much by borrowing from the methods of grassroots organizing and human rights movements that have gone on before ... to go as far as possible to bring about the type of change we're all seeking requires just the type of organizing that you have described. Various methods and approaches work for different settings and different times of course, but your organization has built on some great ideas that have worked in the past and the work of your group is an excellent example for all of us now. And of course the alternative press is crucial to help bring about these important changes.

A great big BRAVO to you and the WPC for your much needed efforts! : )

Hugs,

Sherrie

Thanks, Sherrie.

Gennee

[Zerbie]

The organization I volunteer with is called the 'Womens Press Collective'. It is an all-volunteer organization dedicated to creating independent media by and for low-income and working class people and low-income working women in particular.


I mentioned earlier about systematic organizing. As I said earlier, it is not a new concept. It came about in the 1960's when grassroots organizations formed during the civil rights movement. I has evolved over the years and it works! It can be transferred into any community, city, and in any setting.
I have met a number of organizers from cities around the country. There are many poor working people who lack such things as medical care and decent living and working conditions. I can see this working in two area of particular interest to me: the education system and LGBT issues.


Gennee

:love:

Whoa, totally missed this! This post wasn't here when I submitted my reply which appears after it.

That's AMAZING, Gennee!! :eek: How in the world do you do all that part time? It sounds like a full time job, like it should have a salary attached too. That is a lot of work. How did you learn to do all that?

As to organizing, yes, I'm sure it works. It wouldn't surprise me if a lot of what has gone on in recent years is backlash to the 60s. The civil rights, mvt, women's mvt, LGBT mvt, all of them have faced or are facing backlash of some kind. The dumbing-down of the education system, I might suspect could be related to a power structure that does not want an educated public asking awkward questions.

Also in simple terms of cause/effect: organizing works. That is what the right did - they organized and raised funds over a few 'key' issues, say, abortion, gay rights, immigration, and they got a lot of elected officials in place, who then appointed right-wing judges to the courts, etc. We could do the same thing. They've been at it for about 30 years and the current political slant is the result of that. What if we got organized? We could have an impact, too. American society is in desperate need of balance right now.
:pray:

[Sherrie Z]

This is in response to your entire post above, the post that included this quote here:

How about just saying 'friends?' Why don't we say that? How did we wind up with 'allies?'

Or I guess we could extend the sandwich: the LGBTQSA community. :confused: :o Or, the longest one I've ever heard of: the LGBTQQISA community.

Oh, god. Let's just go back to "gay." :rolleyes:
:rofl:
:p
Uh-oh, am I in trouble now? :shield:


I love this discussion of comparing notes and differences in our experiences ... ways where we're the same, and have some shared experiences, and also the ways where we're different, and appreciating those differences too. I could go point by point with more specific responses to your post above, but I would pretty much be saying "yes, me too!" or "great point!" all the way through, so I'll just say thanks again and that I really appreciate what you've said here! : )

These long lists of letters are definitely way too awkward and could just as easily lead to feelings of exclusion as inclusion ... also it's just plain confusing. I just checked Wikipedia looking for even more variations and letter options, and it really gets ridiculous. I kinda like "gender minorities" (referring to gender identity and also preference for whichever genders) or just using umbrella terms such as gay or trans that I feel actually could include everybody, but of course not everyone agrees so it gets complicated. As hetero supporters go, I like "friends" for it's relational quality and feeling of supportiveness but that word could be confused with someone who is literally just a personal friend of a particular gender minority person and wouldn't necessarily imply actual support in the more political sense.

Just to confuse things further, LOL ... here's another angle ... just in considering cultural and social orientation in general ... I happen to be hetero and non-trans, so gender-wise I could be described as straight, but I don't identify with "straightness" in other ways ... I am socially and culturally much more inclined toward "alternativeness" in a number of ways, mostly in terms of the types of people I often prefer to interact with -- usually minorities of all kinds -- and also my general cultural leanings. Of course these are very subjective terms and open to various interpretations, so maybe this just adds to the confusion, LOL.

At any rate, many years ago a gay friend who was much more traditional than I am said something to the effect that he felt that if only he weren't gay, he would be straight. And that he saw me as the opposite ... if only I weren't straight I would be gay. And I knew just what he meant ... speaking in generalities (and possibly even somewhat in stereotypes), he was gay but really more culturally straight, and I was straight but much more culturally gay than he was. Funny how that happens, LOL ... : )

Aside from the word "straight" indicating heterosexuality ... the word can also indicate a type of cultural straightness or traditionalness or conservativeness or a sort of straight-and-narrow-ness in personal manner or even politically. It can also be used to indicate someone's relationship to drug use, adventurousness with sexual behaviors, or time spent in prison ... in other words when someone "goes straight" it could mean that they have discontinued drug use and so on. But as I've spoken about cultural straightness, I'm not referring to these types of categories, but in a more general social sense ... as in sharing the overall sensibility and cultural leanings often found within the gender minority communities and other minorities in general. Yet this all goes to show how complicated the use of the word "straight" can be ... in the same way that our attempts to describe all types of people have been confusing and complicated.

Meanwhile, as our language and overall understanding evolves to incorporate more improvements, hopefully we can keep on considering various ways to describe ourselves and others in ways that will feel more like stepping stones or bridge building, rather than setting up more cumbersome barriers. I feel that where there is a genuine spirit of coalition building, we will eventually find a way ... and we definitely have that spirit here at Soulforce. : )

[Zerbie]

These long lists of letters are definitely way too awkward and could just as easily lead to feelings of exclusion as inclusion ... also it's just plain confusing.

At any rate, many years ago a gay friend who was much more traditional than I am said something to the effect that he felt that if only he weren't gay, he would be straight. And that he saw me as the opposite ... if only I weren't straight I would be gay. And I knew just what he meant ... speaking in generalities (and possibly even somewhat in stereotypes), he was gay but really more culturally straight, and I was straight but much more culturally gay than he was. Funny how that happens, LOL ... : )

:D I TOTALLY get that!! :lol:

I've been known to remark, because of my activism and time spent here, etc., altho I'm married to a guy, that I'm "gayer than most of the gay people I know."
--- I have more rainbows and bumper stickers than you! Mwhaahahahahahaaaa!!!!! :lol:



Aside from the word "straight" indicating heterosexuality ... the word can also indicate a type of cultural straightness or traditionalness or conservativeness or a sort of straight-and-narrow-ness in personal manner or even politically.
Yeah, which explains why I'm a lot more uncomfortable with people labeling me 'straight' than when they assume I'm lesbian. It always did make me think of an entire conservative block of attitudes that don't fit me.



Meanwhile, as our language and overall understanding evolves to incorporate more improvements, hopefully we can keep on considering various ways to describe ourselves and others in ways that will feel more like stepping stones or bridge building, rather than setting up more cumbersome barriers. I feel that where there is a genuine spirit of coalition building, we will eventually find a way ... and we definitely have that spirit here at Soulforce. : )

I just hope we can come up with name. Something *pronounceable,* please!!!!

:pray:
:lol::p

[Gennee]

Whoa, totally missed this! This post wasn't here when I submitted my reply which appears after it.

That's AMAZING, Gennee!! :eek: How in the world do you do all that part time? It sounds like a full time job, like it should have a salary attached too. That is a lot of work. How did you learn to do all that?

As to organizing, yes, I'm sure it works. It wouldn't surprise me if a lot of what has gone on in recent years is backlash to the 60s. The civil rights, mvt, women's mvt, LGBT mvt, all of them have faced or are facing backlash of some kind. The dumbing-down of the education system, I might suspect could be related to a power structure that does not want an educated public asking awkward questions.

Also in simple terms of cause/effect: organizing works. That is what the right did - they organized and raised funds over a few 'key' issues, say, abortion, gay rights, immigration, and they got a lot of elected officials in place, who then appointed right-wing judges to the courts, etc. We could do the same thing. They've been at it for about 30 years and the current political slant is the result of that. What if we got organized? We could have an impact, too. American society is in desperate need of balance right now.
:pray:

It seems like a lot but I enjoy it. We're getting more volunteers, especially from people who work or have worked in media. They are fed with the way mainstream media reports the news. More middle class people are slipping into the ranks of the working poor.

One reason the right is so successful is that they think long term. I take note that when they suffer defeat they regroup, see where they erred, then move away. This is a fine quality to have and is one that I use.

Gennee

[Zerbie]

I. More middle class people are slipping into the ranks of the working poor.
:mad:
I am really concerned about erosion of the middle class. If the current system persists, we may end up with a permanent economic underclass. We should be lifting people out of poverty and into abundance, not handing over 90% of wealth to the super-ridiculously rich.

One reason the right is so successful is that they think long term. I take note that when they suffer defeat they regroup, see where they erred, then move away. This is a fine quality to have and is one that I use.

Gennee

I think that's absolutely correct, Gennee. We have to do the same. That ought to bring things into balance.

[Sherrie Z]

Note: I'm still having trouble with my italic and color option, so I indicated the quotes by hand ... the following is taken from Zerbie's post from May 19th:

Zerbie quoted Sherrie:

At any rate, many years ago a gay friend who was much more traditional than I am said something to the effect that he felt that if only he weren't gay, he would be straight. And that he saw me as the opposite ... if only I weren't straight I would be gay. And I knew just what he meant ... speaking in generalities (and possibly even somewhat in stereotypes), he was gay but really more culturally straight, and I was straight but much more culturally gay than he was. Funny how that happens, LOL ... : )

Zerbie responded:

I TOTALLY get that!!

I've been known to remark, because of my activism and time spent here, etc., altho I'm married to a guy, that I'm "gayer than most of the gay people I know."
--- I have more rainbows and bumper stickers than you! Mwhaahahahahahaaaa!!!!!


Sherrie responds:

LOL, I'm not surprised! Both that you would understand and that you're the same way ... wink wink : )

And in a similar vein ... just curious, just for fun ... on the topic of "gaydar" LOL ... in several instances, it has turned out that my gaydar was more accurate than some of my gay friends' gaydar ... just a few times here and there ... I'm guessing you may have had that experience too (?) ... giggle giggle : )

[Sherrie Z]

Nice photo, Gennee! How fun to see your beautiful friendly face in your new avatar! : )

It's fun to see images of our Soulforce friends here ... I wish I could post an avatar but at least for now, my computer isn't quite up to it ... but it's fun to see yours, thanks!

[Gennee]

Nice photo, Gennee! How fun to see your beautiful friendly face in your new avatar! : )

It's fun to see images of our Soulforce friends here ... I wish I could post an avatar but at least for now, my computer isn't quite up to it ... but it's fun to see yours, thanks!

Thank you for the compliment, Sherrie.

Gennee

:)

[Zerbie]

And in a similar vein ... just curious, just for fun ... on the topic of "gaydar" LOL ... in several instances, it has turned out that my gaydar was more accurate than some of my gay friends' gaydar ... just a few times here and there ... I'm guessing you may have had that experience too (?) ... giggle giggle : )

Actually, I have never compared Gaydar talents with others. I used to have a really excellent fail-proof Gaydar but it stopped working so reliably in recent years. I think it has been wearing out from over-use.

The last time I had a conversation about something like this in 3D with another non-straight was at a Pride event 2 or 3 years ago. We were in my car, driving to the event, and we weren't sure where to park or exactly where to go to find the parade.

As we drove around, we saw some people walking on the sidewalk. I said, "Oh, we're definitely close. These people are here for the parade, no question," and he agreed with me that there was no question the pedestrians were 'family.' This happened a few times. As we circled around, we were calling it to one another whether the pedestrians we saw were straight or gay. :o:o :p
We agreed on every individual and group that we passed, including a group of 3 men who completely stymied our Gaydar skills -- we had literally no idea what those 3 guys were. It made my pal laugh that my Gaydar was pinging the same way as his even from great distances. I don't know *what* any of this means, other than that we were acting silly.:o

[Sherrie Z]

Actually, I have never compared Gaydar talents with others. I used to have a really excellent fail-proof Gaydar but it stopped working so reliably in recent years. I think it has been wearing out from over-use.

The last time I had a conversation about something like this in 3D with another non-straight was at a Pride event 2 or 3 years ago. We were in my car, driving to the event, and we weren't sure where to park or exactly where to go to find the parade.

As we drove around, we saw some people walking on the sidewalk. I said, "Oh, we're definitely close. These people are here for the parade, no question," and he agreed with me that there was no question the pedestrians were 'family.' This happened a few times. As we circled around, we were calling it to one another whether the pedestrians we saw were straight or gay. :o:o :p
We agreed on every individual and group that we passed, including a group of 3 men who completely stymied our Gaydar skills -- we had literally no idea what those 3 guys were. It made my pal laugh that my Gaydar was pinging the same way as his even from great distances. I don't know *what* any of this means, other than that we were acting silly.:o


LOL ... I love "I think it has been wearing out from over-use" hee hee : )

Also, this reminds me of that episode of The Office when they were checking online to see if they could order a Gaydar machine ... LOL!