How do you know for sure if you are gay?

[Jasonlopez_too]

I've been struggling with this issue, I want to be really sure that I'm gay before I follow that path. I feel like it would be giving up if I do :(

[Steven E. Webster]

I've been struggling with this issue, I want to be really sure that I'm gay before I follow that path. I feel like it would be giving up if I do :(

Jason,

What is it that you feel you would be "giving up"?

Giving up on the struggle to deny your sexual identity?

Giving up on the supposed advantages of being heterosexual?

I'm not wanting to argue or judge you---just asking you to clarify what you are thinking/feeling.

Many of us may have had the same (or similar) feelings.

By the way, I believe there are some counselors/therapists out there who have a kind of survey or multiple choice kind of "instrument" that helps people sort out in a seemingly "objective" way what their feelings are about their sexual and gender identities.

Might not hurt to have a counselor or therapist who can help you sort out feeings without pushing you in one direction or another. (No good therapist should be pushing you in a direction you aren't freely choosing for yourself.)

Steven Webster

[scott snedeker]

If you are sexually attracted to men then you are sexually attracted to men! most folks call that gay. However in some cultures like in Spain you are not considered gay if you are a top.

It's only a label. You are a unique one of a kind with some common interests with other folks. I like the label "gay" so I use it , But I like "Radical Faerie" even more! I feel empowered and liberated by the term!

[tymejumper]

I actually like gender queer. I think that is a cool name.

We all wonder, am I really gay? Some of us take time to find out and some of us just know. Sounds like you are like me, taking time to find out. There is no hurry to put a lable on yourself. You find out by dating others. If you wish to date men, then date one or two and find out if your heart is into it. Not just your private parts. A man is much better than a woman at having sex with anyone as long as it feels good, and I guess it all feels good for them.(so I am told) If you feel more fufilled with a man then you are gay. If you date women and feel more fulfilled with them, you are straight. If you can do it with both, you are bisexual. That by the way is gay also!:lol:

Don't put a lable on it, just date who you are attracted to and like. Who you would like to have a relationship with. YOu will find out who you are.

[Zerbie]

If you can do it with both, you are bisexual. That by the way is gay also!:lol:
:eek:
Oh! So I *AM* gay?!?!

This *is* confusing. Oh forget it. I'll just continue to evade labels as best as possible.


Don't put a lable on it, just date who you are attracted to and like. Who you would like to have a relationship with. YOu will find out who you are.

:agree: Yep!

[Zerbie]

I've been struggling with this issue, I want to be really sure that I'm gay before I follow that path. I feel like it would be giving up if I do :(

Jason,

Welcome. Sorry for your uncomfortable feelings. I understand about struggle, I struggled for a while.

The sad thing is how little it really matters whether one likes boys, girls, both, or it changes, or maybe we like girls one way and boys another way. Sometimes people live for years and years and are never sure if they aren't a little bit bisexual, or just where they fall on the Kinsey scale or the Klein graph. (Yes, there are scales and graphs designed to place us on a continuum of how gay or straight we are. You can look them up and try them. I did when I was struggling. But they just confused me more.)

Whether we light up for men, for women, or for both sexes does not matter. What matters is who we are in our heart, how we treat ourselves and one another, and what kind of life we lead.

I think you seem to feel that if you 'come out' as gay, if you tell someone, or if you act on feelings of arousal for another man, that it would be a kind of Crossing of the Rubicon, a point of no return which you could never take back later. That is an inaccurate feeling. I felt that way once, about telling anyone I was unsure of my orientation, then I felt that way about going out with a girl. But there isn't really a point of no return. If something does not work out, just drop it and change what you're doing. The world will not stop and say "Hold On A Minute - Jason's gay, he has to stay with So & So." You can date who you want, if you feel you got your orientation wrong the first time, you can revise what you call yourself. Promise. ;) :love:

If you go out with a guy, and/or have sexual contact with him, and it does not feel *right* inside you for any reason, just don't do it again (at least not with THAT guy. Maybe there might be another guy with whom it WILL feel *right.*) Go on a case by case basis. If you like someone, date him or her. You will know if you're set on fire with arousal or not. What's even more important is the social/emotional aspect. Does this person treat you right? Are they honest? Are they kind? Do you have fun with them? It's the quality of the relationship that matters.

[tdogg]

Welcome to the forums! Glad you found your way here.

You are on a wonderful and exciting journey to self-realization and acceptance, and eventually love. Don't feel the pressure to put yourself into a box, or put a label on you. Just be you.

No matter what, don't let anyone deny your journey - it's yours to savor and grow and feel everything that happens. Enjoy the ride, and remember, it's YOUR ride!!!

Tdogg :love:

[Jasonlopez_too]

Thanx for the support guys. It's scarry for me to think about. I've been a little depressed and contemplating bad stuff :'( I guess I know that a lot of my thoughts would be considered gay, and a lot of the sexual encounters too. But from everything I've heard, people can't change their sexual orientation, and I can't be gay, I just can't. I'm not sure what to do.

[Zerbie]

Thanx for the support guys. It's scarry for me to think about. I've been a little depressed and contemplating bad stuff :'(

Whatever you do -- never hurt or harm yourself! Jason, never hurt yourself. :'(:pray:

You matter too much to ever be harmed. No Matter What. :love::love:
:pray::pray::pray::pray:

If you feel really bad, desperate, anything like that: there are people and places to call and reach out. This is a good place, but it is not always immediate - someone might not always be online here.
Are you young? If you are a young person, the Trevor project was created for precisely YOU. Call them.
Or call any supportive person who loves you, or call a hotline where you can remain anonymous and get support. There is a lot of love out there in the world, and it is for you. Give it a chance to find you. :love:


I guess I know that a lot of my thoughts would be considered gay, and a lot of the sexual encounters too. But from everything I've heard, people can't change their sexual orientation, and I can't be gay, I just can't. I'm not sure what to do.

:'(:love::'(:love:

((((( Jason )))))

May I ask, why can't you?

You can send me a private message if you prefer, if you are comfortable doing so. If you're not comfortable, don't. It's all okay. :)

If you *are* gay, Jason, it IS okay. You ARE loved. You absolutely WILL be loved as a gay man (alright, not by everyone, but by enough people to fill your life with joy.)

I'm so sorry you're scared. I understand.
Great, big hugs,
:love::love::love::love:

[Matt Algren]

Thanx for the support guys. It's scarry for me to think about. I've been a little depressed and contemplating bad stuff :'( I guess I know that a lot of my thoughts would be considered gay, and a lot of the sexual encounters too. But from everything I've heard, people can't change their sexual orientation, and I can't be gay, I just can't. I'm not sure what to do.
Have you ever read American Born Chinese? (Seriously, that book is one of the reasons I finally got okay with coming out.) Nutshell: Part of the story is an adaptation of the old Chinese story of the Monkey King (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Wukong) who wanted to be a god and fought Tze-Yo-Tzuh (He Who Is) until He buried the Monkey King under a mountain until he released his false god-form and returned to being a monkey.

Toward the end of the book the Monkey King (who never did get to be a god) says, "I would have saved myself from five hundred years' imprisonment beneath a mountain of rock had I only realized how good it is to be a monkey."

Don't bury yourself, Jason. Be who you are. That's all Tze-Yo-Tzuh asks of you.

[Zerbie]

If you are ever in a bad way, try this #:

866-4-U-TREVOR (that is, 866-488-7386)

If for any reason, that isn't working out, take a look around the "emergency numbers" page near the top right of this website.

[scott snedeker]

God gave you the gift of the ability to love passionately. You are going to find who he has created for you by giving you this attraction. It may be Another of His Gay children who needs you. This is His plan. When you find each other and make passionate love God will smile like a parent watching his child open a gift on Christmas morning.

He did not create you with attraction to men with the intention of watching your heart break because He gets gratification from your suffering lonliness and lovelessness. God does not create suffering. God does not create second class humans with fewer entitlements.

Humans do. Humans like Priests and parents. Humans like presidents and congressmen.

Why do humans create suffering? The usual fear, fear of eternal damnation, fear of not fitting in, fear of authority, Fear of what other people think.

Or a personal sense of inadequacy. Homophobes compensate for this by dehumanizing gay people for gratification. "I'm a piece of crap but these perverts don't deserve to live!"

You are on the first step of a journey like many. Coming out to yourself is the beginning of a wonderful exciting discovery of who you are meant to be. Be patient. You are young. Make a few steps, acclimate then make a few more. Build up your confidence that you are entitled to live free and equal in this world.

You are here to grow courage, courage to love, courage to help others like your family and friends overcome their fear. It takes time, you know.

You are a man with the soul of a man, handsome of body, heart and spirit. You are God's shining boy. He has such joy planned for you. Follow your heart. Live true to your nature. That is His will. There is another of His gay children who needs you. Seek and find him.

[Jasonlopez_too]

You really think there is a gay guy that really needs me? :pray: I never really thought about someone else needing me for something. It feels like my thoughts are not good tho, just lust and sex. how can that be something someone needs. I can't even love myself, so how can i love someone else. I feel like if I was with someone I would just make them worse like me. I don't know, I just get confused about it all and want to hide from everything.

[keltic63]

You really think there is a gay guy that really needs me? :pray: I never really thought about someone else needing me for something. It feels like my thoughts are not good tho, just lust and sex. how can that be something someone needs. I can't even love myself, so how can i love someone else. I feel like if I was with someone I would just make them worse like me. I don't know, I just get confused about it all and want to hide from everything.

YES! a guy out there needs you, and you need to prepare for him. do the work now to make you the best JasonLopez this world has ever seen, and as you do that, you will be ready for that special guy that is preparing for you.

You may be thinking lust and sex for now, I still do :o, but that doesn't mean you aren't capable of love. Love yourself (it is a commandment, you know, Love God, Love each other, as in love your neighbor as YOURSELF)

could you make a list of all the good qualities you have, or reasons why someone would want to be with you? That might be a good place to start.

[Zerbie]

You really think there is a gay guy that really needs me? :pray: I never really thought about someone else needing me for something.
Yes. Kind of a shocker, eh? We're used to thinking of ourselves as the needing/wanting ones. Well, the other people need us too.

I agree with Scotty about there being a guy out there who is waiting for you. Taking it a step further, there are future friends who also need you. You will be wanted and needed to give your love and friendship and joyfulness to the world.


It feels like my thoughts are not good tho, just lust and sex.

Well, if you're 21, that's expected. The sex drive is strong anyway, and tends to be very strong around your age. Don't worry about judging the thoughts. Just be careful, be safe, be respectful of any partners you share with sexually. Use barriers, get tested, that sorta thing.

how can that be something someone needs. I can't even love myself, so how can i love someone else.

This is the larger issue. It takes some time, but you can learn to love yourself. It can be done. I had to learn to. Know what, Jason? It is SO worth it! It's WORTH taking the time to develop love for yourself.

I feel like if I was with someone I would just make them worse like me. I don't know, I just get confused about it all and want to hide from everything.

I understand the feeling. Some days we need to be like turtles and pull into a shell. That's okay for once in a while. But change will only come when we face what is bothering us and really examine it. That takes time. But it works.

Find things that you DO like about yourself. Even if it's only one thing at first, focus on that thing you like. Make more of it, make it bigger. Use it more in your life. Do you make people laugh? Are you good at something most people find difficult? Focus on it, use it. Keep your eyes open for other things you like and respect about yourself. In time, you will find a lot of things about you to appreciate.

[Matt Algren]

You really think there is a gay guy that really needs me? :pray:Yes, really. Really really.

I never really thought about someone else needing me for something. It feels like my thoughts are not good tho, just lust and sex. how can that be something someone needs. I can't even love myself, so how can i love someone else. I feel like if I was with someone I would just make them worse like me. I don't know, I just get confused about it all and want to hide from everything.What's holding you back from loving yourself? You don't need to tell me, but think about it and figure out if it's reasonable*.

Write down the phone number Zerbie gave you (1-866-488-7386) and put it in your wallet. For goodness sake, use it if you need to.

Depression is a dark and deceptive bitch. You don't have to face it alone.






*psst- It isn't. Guaranteed.

[Matt Algren]

Salmo 121
Cântico de Peregrinacão.

Levanto os meus olhos para os montes e pergunto:
De onde me vem o socorro?
O meu socorro vem do SENHOR,
que fez os céus e a terra.

Ele não permitirá que você tropece;
o seu protetor se manterá alterta,
sim, o protetor de Israel não dormirá;
ele está sempre alerta!

O SENHOR é o seu protetor;
como sombra que o protege,
ele está à sua direita.
De dia o sol não o ferirá,
nem a lua, de noite.

O SENHOR o protegerá de todo o mal,
protegerá a sua vida.
O SENHOR protegerá a sua saída
e a sua chegada,
desde a agora e para sempre.

[Zerbie]

Matt,

Is that in Portuguese? How come you chose to post in that language in this particular conversation?

[scott snedeker]

You really think there is a gay guy that really needs me? :pray: I never really thought about someone else needing me for something.

How about a fellow just like you. A fellow who needs to be shown how to love himself. A fellow who has suffered enough and needs someone to reach him. Cry with him to release the pain of self-judgement. Someone who is on the same journey. A journey that I myself was on as a young man.

It feels like my thoughts are not good tho, just lust and sex. how can that be something someone needs.

You are a young sexual being. There are many young sexual beings also. Who like you also want love and to love themselves. So after sex talk with him. Or even before sex talk with him. Go to a movie. Play basketball. Or soccer. Wrestle playfully! Sex does not need to be exclusive or excluded!


I can't even love myself, so how can i love someone else. I feel like if I was with someone I would just make them worse like me. I don't know, I just get confused about it all and want to hide from everything.

If someone wanted to be with you do you think they would make you worse.

What if someone came alive because he was with you? It happens, you know! What if you came alive because he was with you?

And did you know that is so likely to happen that it is a near certainty?

You have suffered enough. You have no more debt to pay. You are free to let in joy. Whenever you feel rotten about yourself, remember that you haved paid enough already, you owe no one more of your suffering.

Love, Your Brother (Who has been there)

Scotty

[Zerbie]

Scotty's an angel.
:love::love::love::love::love::dove::dove:

Now, back to your regular programming. . . .

[tymejumper]

But from everything I've heard, people can't change their sexual orientation, and I can't be gay, I just can't. I'm not sure what to do.

Don't ever think you need to do anything to hurt yourself! You are not flawed in any way. You are where I was several years ago, before my divorce. Here is how my thinking went:

1) I am attracted to women and desire women, but if I were a lesbian then I would not have married a man, cause that is really screwed up and I am not THAT screwed up. Even if I dream of women and sex with them etc.

2) I even ocasionally enjoy sex with my husband, it feels nice so therefore I can't be a lesbian.(I just can't be!)

3) Therefore, as I am attracted to women and enjoy sex once in a while with a man, I must be gay, but bisexual not lesbian.

4)(After divorce and sex with a woman)OMG! I AM a lesbian! I am more fufilled with said woman than in all my years with a man, or actually many men as I was trying to be straight. I have no desire to be with a man again.(even though they are nice to look at and can be sexy) I am even MORE messed up than before because I thought I was bisexual and am not, I really did screw up by marrying a man and I have to face that. At least I was correct about the gay part.

much time passed with abject confusion and fear. Then I met my wife and I found my soul mate, so it is all as it should be now. How much easier it all would have been if I had just QUESTIONED my feelings as a teen and pursued it then and not labled myself or tried to prove anything to anyone.

Do not be afraid of your feelings, embrace them and feel them. There is no cut and dried answer here, it is a journey you have to go on to find yourself. But if you try to hurt yourself, then you never will find out now will you? You'll never get to the end of the road. Life is a journey, your sexuality is a journey also.:pray:

[tymejumper]

God gave you the gift of the ability to love passionately. You are going to find who he has created for you by giving you this attraction. It may be Another of His Gay children who needs you. This is His plan. When you find each other and make passionate love God will smile like a parent watching his child open a gift on Christmas morning.




Scotty, I read this and I cried! It is said so beautifully. It's so true that there is someone who does need you. Someone who is half of you, you just have to find them, that's the trick.:love:

[Matt Algren]

Matt,

Is that in Portuguese? How come you chose to post in that language in this particular conversation?
It's Brazilian Portuguese. IIRC, that's where Jason is originally from.

[Zerbie]

It's Brazilian Portuguese. IIRC, that's where Jason is originally from.

Ohh!! I had tried checking to see if something in his profile indicated Portuguese, but since the forum upgrade a week or two ago, (or was it 3 now?) I haven't been accessing all the profile features. Just found it now.

Totally makes sense now, Matt, thanks. You're a sweetheart.
:)

[pnggrad79]

Jason,
I can't even begin to tell you how many times I desperately asked myself the same questions you are asking of yourself. There is so much societal pressure to be straight and so many media messages that present that as the only normal and right way to be, that when one starts to experience attraction to the same sex, the reaction is immediate, "What?, where did that come from? I can't be gay/lesbian!"
I was married for 19 years to a man and didn't know that what I felt was not normal. By not normal I mean that there was no passion and I felt nothing with him. I had dreams of it, but never the real thing. The first time a woman (now my wife) made love to me, I thought to myself, "Where have you been all my life?" I never felt so fulfilled and whole. It was what I had dreamed of all my life, I just didn't know it. It was simply phenomenal and as much as I tried to fight it, I got only knees one night came out to God, came out to myself and came out to my wife. I haven't looked back, but realize how much precious time I wasted thinking destructive, self defeating thoughts. Now I don't dream of it anymore, it is a reality. So stop worrying and thinking destructive thoughts. You are ok. You are adored and loved.
God absolutely adores you, even if you are gay. You will not be happy if you keep denying how you feel. This is something you have to work out on your own, but know that whatever you are-gay or straight, you are loved and accepted of God.
I will keep you in my prayers as will everyone here, and please don't hurt yourself over this. There is someone out there who is looking for someone like you. Go find them and God bless you and keep you, comfort you and assure you of his presence and love. :love:

[BrianB]

I tried using the babel fish translator at Yahoo but it didn't have Portuguese to English.

[Matt Algren]

I tried using the babel fish translator at Yahoo but it didn't have Portuguese to English.
It's Psalm 121 as translated in the Nova Versão Internacional.

Anyone heard from Jason? Hoping he's doing better.

[Jasonlopez_too]

Obrigado, I needed a little encouragement about now. I'm going home for the summer and have been worried about what my parents will say/do if I do some of the things I've been doing here at school. My roomate has been encourageing me too, he is gay and has been out for a few years. He helps me, but I also see all of the bad things that happen because of how he expresses himself. We have been kinda close this year at school, and I know I'll miss him durring the summer, but I don't want to keep talking to him because I know he's gay and I feel like if I keep talking to him I might start liking him too much. I don't know. I feel better when I hear from you guys, but then I start thinking about things by myself and I get all depressed again. I appreciate the support tho.

[Zerbie]

Whatever you do, keep in touch with people who love you for who you are - all of who you are.

If you get in a bad way, get out of the house, call someone, do something that is positive and good. When that bad feeling comes, instead of giving in by thinking bad things (or worse, doing bad things:'() find something that feels life-giving that you can do. :love: Whatever it is, if it is good, if it gives life, light, creates smiles, joy, makes you or another person healthier and happier - do it!!

Glad you're hanging around here. These folks are great. :) Maybe you can find someone at home this summer who fills your heart with light (that need not be in a "like" kind of way, but in a friend, or brother, or sister, or mentor kind of way.) Now is the time to drench yourself in positive energy - the kind of energy that creates good things and brings good to your life (and the world.)
:love::pray:

[Jasonlopez_too]

Does anybody here have experience with Exodus int. or other ex-gay groups? One of my friends said I should look into them. I was trying to find support groups to help me with my feelings.

[keltic63]

Does anybody here have experience with Exodus int. or other ex-gay groups? One of my friends said I should look into them. I was trying to find support groups to help me with my feelings.
Jason, you need only to look around our website here for that info: http://www.soulforce.org/article/726


I'd also like to direct you to the American Psychological Association and their statement about sexual orientation: http://www.apa.org/topics/sorientation.html#whatis

within that webpage, it gives more information about what is known of groups like Exodus International:


All major national mental health organizations have officially expressed concerns about therapies promoted to modify sexual orientation. To date, there has been no scientifically adequate research to show that therapy aimed at changing sexual orientation (sometimes called reparative or conversion therapy) is safe or effective. Furthermore, it seems likely that the promotion of change therapies reinforces stereotypes and contributes to a negative climate for lesbian, gay, and bisexual persons. This appears to be especially likely for lesbian, gay, and bisexual individuals who grow up in more conservative religious settings.

[Jasonlopez_too]

:confused: What if you would rather not be gay, do you still think that it's not good to go to those ex-gay groups? Why do they think people can change how they feel?

[keltic63]

:confused: What if you would rather not be gay, do you still think that it's not good to go to those ex-gay groups? Why do they think people can change how they feel?

it's called "repression" and it's a bad thing to do to yourself.

I'd rather not be bald, I'd like to be taller, I wish I could sing better, but the reality is that even if I take medicine to make my hair grow, it won't change the fact that my genetic makeup has programmed me to be bald; I will never be any taller than I am now, and although I can practice to improve my voice, once again, heredity has placed limitations on my voice.

You could "repress" those "feelings" of being gay, but would you ever really be straight? If we know, by virtue of science, medicine, psychology, and our own witness (those of us who are gay and lesbian, bisexual and transgendered) that we are who we are and we are who the Creator made us to be, wouldn't it be a slap in God's face to think we know better and attempt to be something else, something we are not?

[Matt Algren]

:confused: What if you would rather not be gay, do you still think that it's not good to go to those ex-gay groups? Why do they think people can change how they feel?
I'd rather not be left-handed, but there's no changing that either. I could force myself to write with my right hand and eat with my right hand and all the rest, but that wouldn't make me right-handed. Better to make peace with and embrace the fact that I'm left-handed*.

You're trying to change something that you can't change. I'd go a step further and say that it's something that you shouldn't try to change. Not only is it impossible to succeed, the attempt is harmful.



*I'm actually right handed, but I'm making a point here.

edit: for keltic63:

http://www.laredofestivals.org/sitebuilder/images/coke-100x100.png

[Steven E. Webster]

:confused: What if you would rather not be gay, do you still think that it's not good to go to those ex-gay groups? Why do they think people can change how they feel?

Tell us more about this feeling of "not wanting to be gay." What's that about? Is it because you think heterosexual people have it better? Is it because you think God favors heterosexuals?

Just curious.

Steven Webster

[Zerbie]

Jason, I spent an hour trying to reply to this topic today, but the internet connection kept fighting me and winning. I exhausted myself mentally just trying to get something said to you. Just want you to know that I am following this conversation and care about what happens to you. Maybe tomorrow I can come back and say a little more.

In essence, I had a couple of main points. One of them was that I hope, before you attend ANY ex gay things (meetings, therapies, conventions, etc) that you will read Wayne Besen's book from beginning to end. It's called "Anything but Straight." You can probably find it in bookstores (I did) or online if you search the title or the name Wayne Besen. It is NOT a slow read - it's a page turner, just sharing his own observations and research of the ex gay industry and those involved.

At least inform yourself of the information and the reactions of others to years in the ex gay experience before you decide to check it out for yourself. I have serious ethical/moral problems with the ex gay premise.

If you decide you simply must participate in ex gay things to find out for yourself, then that is what you must do, and I'll wish you love and care and safety on the journey. :pray:

I also rambled on for a while, in the posts that never made it to this web board, about my own philosophies regarding sexuality, shifting sexual orientation, ex gay 'industries,' versus a free exploration of one's romantic inclinations that is self-initiated. Rather than try to resurrect those writings from memory, I will go back and search this forum for things I wrote long ago on the same subject, and if I find something, I will bump the whole conversation up for you. There was a thread called "sexual orientations that shift." I'll go now and try to find it for you.

One last point, Jason: whether you are gay or not, you are lovable, you can and will be loved. If you *are* gay, or fear you might be, know that God loves you as a gay man. Loves you. :dove: Inclusive of everything that is part of you. Loves you. Unconditionally. Infinitely. You are infinitely worthy of that love. You do not have to do anything to earn it. Your being makes you worthy.

:love::pray:

[Alecto]

If you're really not sure whether or not you're gay, there are APA qualified counselors to talk to help you figure that out. Maybe you are, maybe you aren't. If you are, though,
A)There is no solid research to show that you can change. Last I knew, there wasn't research specifically saying that no one can, but if some people can, that number is really, really small. Weigh that vs.
B)"Ex-gay" therapies, flat out, are dangerous. Increased risk of suicide and depression. In short, whatever bad you've got going now...they take it and make it worse. Depending on who you go with, they sometimes try to drag the rest of your family down too. Even IF they work for a very small percentage of people, I don't think it's worth putting the rest of their clients through that. That said, it is ultimately your choice: I'd only urge you to get as much information, from them and from outside sources, as you can before you jump into anything.

There's a fairly balanced rundown of "Love Won Out" here (http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/02/12/220): it's long and comes in several parts, but I found this (http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/08/02/603) most relevant.



I do also wonder, though: what are your reasons for not wanting to be gay? Don't get me wrong, the whole oppression thing's no fun, but this is kind of exactly what Ghandi was talking about with the whole "don't curse the darkness" thing. And if it's for other reasons, or you're not sure, that's ok too, but I think it's definitely worth examining (and again, a licensed therapist can help you to do this without coming from a standpoint that gay folks are automatically defective or evil or sin etc.). I wish you luck.

[scott snedeker]

:confused: What if you would rather not be gay, do you still think that it's not good to go to those ex-gay groups? Why do they think people can change how they feel?

I was in that place precisely at the age you are now.

As I peel back the decades putting myself back into my mind I remember the mortal fear at the thought of letting anyone, especially my parents, Know how I was really turned on by guys only. It was just as intense as the icy stone cold feeling in my chest I got when I thought about my death for too long.

At the time I was an atheist so It was really frightening! I just couldn't give in to it! That would be like death in a different way. And I was afraid. There was a Gay group that advertized a meeting on a flyer on campus that first week as a freshman. It was 1982 and a mysterious Ilness was killing gay men who went to bathhouses in San Francisco. Something in the water they thought. I didn't go.

I pulled back into my shell and soon had a "Girlfriend." Turned out I was a lousy lover--She lost interest, or should I say her lack of interest matched mine--I was only pretending to be interested with the hope that sexual attraction to women would somehow be cultivated by pretending. My own "ExGay" therapy.

But all they while my desire was the typical satyr's appetite of a repressed eighteen year old. All I could think of was sex and my best friend in high school who I was madly in love with and hated to leave (he was straight and either didn't know or pretended not to).

I couldn't stand myself! At one point I was not paying attention while crossing the street and walked right in front of a speeding car. He locked up the brakes. I didn't jump. Oddly I was not startled. Indeed a wash of relief flowed over me as I believed I was going to be killed in the next moment.

Why was I in so much torment to cherish being killed? Why did this seem to be a blessed gift?

Because only 6 years prior I was twelve years old and at that time I discovered that the exciting sexual feelings that were awakening within me. I had "special buddies" that I just loved to run naked in the woods with and share special sexual secrets with.

And then It hit me. This is what faggots are! This is what my Father told me were the most evil sick dangerous worthless criminal deviants who raped and murdered children were. He told me how when one of these came on to him while he was hitchhiking, and showed me (using my arm) how he grabbed his arm and broke it over his knee!

How could my father be wrong? The law agreed with him. The church agreed with him. He was a loving and involved father in every other way. He was fun and clearly loved making my brother and me happy.

So at eighteen I remained in my own eyes inadequate. The secret abomination I had to protect my family from.

Eight years later, I had suffered enough. MY life was hell and I felt I had nothing to lose anymore. I went to a gay bar and picked up my first "boyfriend." But my fear made every part of sex desperate, but at least it was a start.

The problem was not that I was attracted to men. The problem was that I was taught to hate myself for it. Only later in life Did I find a way to "undo" the false lesson.

To reconnect to the innocent twelve year old running playfully nakedly through the woods with my special buddies. Innocent to the false lessons of self hate. My teacher's name was Adrain. He taught me that my soul was not broken or sick but disconnected from my inner being. He carefully showed me how to reconnect with my Heart of Innocence. It is a sexually playful loving connection with my conscious self and others.

Since then I have discovered many ways to let go of layer upon layer of self criticism and let in joy. My newest addition to spiritual guidence is Jack Kornfield who trained as a Buddhist Monk and is a PhD. Psychologist. His Meditation for Beginners has allowed me to free my self of so much attachment to fear and pain and Guilt that I have fits of laughter for no reason. Actually, It's bursts of joy just to be alive and free.

So, my little brother, search for a way to let go of your fear, your self hate, your Guilt. Do it safely. Maybe this is not the time to come out to your family. Make this clear to your roomate. You are a beautiful Shining sexual being. Joy is your entitlement.

You might try as a start Jack Kornfield's Meditation for Beginners on the 6 CD set. It may be a safe way to start to let go of suffering and start to live. I wish I had someone give me this kind of direction when I was your age. Life is supposed to be fun.

LOVE,

Your big brother,

Scotty

p.s. Link to this meditation cd set may be helpful too

http://store.soundstrue.com/aw00468d.html

[Daniel]

And like Scotty, I had many of the same feelings as he, playing around with boys when I was young, then in adolescence- in my case- clamming up tight when a wave of Pentecostalism touched my family. Oh....I thought I had to be so holy and brave and all that stuff. Gone went any thoughts of boys- and even girls. I just put it all out of my head.

Fastforward to the age of 28 and everything came apart in my life. I had to deal with repressing who and what I was for all those many years. Guess what? It took my years to undo the damage I did to myself all those years. Took me years to be happy in my own gay skin and be happy with other gay men. Guess what? I went a little further this past weekend by going on a yoga retreat with other gay men. It was phenomenal! The love in the room was trememdous.

So yeah- there is someone out there who is waiting for you to own up to who and what you are so they can share that shining light that is inside of you. Really. There is.

But if you reject yourself out of fear and 'what others think', then the road ahead only gets harder and harder. Believe me, a number of us here have been there and done that. And if we could, we would like to spare you that pain.

Scotty has some excellent suggestions. I would also add that you contact Pflag in your area and go and talk with them. When the times comes for you to talk to you parents about this (and the timing is up to you), they can be an excellent aid.

Your original question about how one knows if one is gay brought the following to mind.

There was a famous gay author, Christopher Isherwood (he wrote the book 'I am a camera' which became the movie and musical Cabaret) who said that: “It seems to me that the real clue to your sex-orientation lies in your romantic feelings rather than in your sexual feelings. If you are really gay, you are able to fall in love with a man, not just enjoy having sex with him.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Isherwood

[Matt Algren]

And like Scotty, I had many of the same feelings as he, playing around with boys when I was young, then in adolescence- in my case- clamming up tight when a wave or Pentecostalism touched my family. Oh....I thought I had to be so holy and brave and all that stuff. Gone went any thoughts of boys- and even girls. I just put it all out of my head.

Fastforward to the age of 28 and everything came apart in my life. I had to deal with repressing who and what I was for all those many years. Guess what? It took my years to undo the damage I did to myself all those years.Wow, that's pretty much me up to this point. I'm a couple years (at least) behind you recovery-wise, but yeah, pushing all that emotion (good and bad) down for that long takes awhile to heal from.

Took me years to be happy in my own gay skin and be happy with other gay men. Guess what? I went a little further this past weekend by going on a yoga retreat with other gay men. It was phenominal! The love in the room was trememdous.

So yeah- there is someone out there who is waiting for you to own up to who and what you are so they can share that shining light that is inside of you. Really. There is.

But if you reject yourself out of fear and 'what others think', then the road ahead only gets harder and harder. Believe me, a number of us here have been there and done that. And if we could, we would like to spare you that pain.

Scotty has some excellent suggestions. I would also add that you contact Pflag in your area and go and talk with them. When the times comes for you to talk to you parents about this (and the timing is up to you), they can be an excellent aid.

Your original question about how one knows if one is gay brought the following to mind.

There was a famous gay author, Christopher Isherwood (he wrote the book 'I am a camera' which became the movie and musical Cabaret) who said that: “It seems to me that the real clue to your sex-orientation lies in your romantic feelings rather than in your sexual feelings. If you are really gay, you are able to fall in love with a man, not just enjoy having sex with him.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Isherwood
Why yes, you can get an Amen.

[keltic63]

There was a famous gay author, Christopher Isherwood (he wrote the book 'I am a camera' which became the movie and musical Cabaret) who said that: “It seems to me that the real clue to your sex-orientation lies in your romantic feelings rather than in your sexual feelings. If you are really gay, you are able to fall in love with a man, not just enjoy having sex with him.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Isherwood

My friend Janet, who is going to be ordained this sunday, and will be one of the officiating ministers at our wedding, says that SEXUAL orientation is a misnomer. It's not about the sex, it's about the ATTRACTION. So more correctly, we should talk about our attractional orientation. We spend so little time in actual physical sexual activity, but a whole lot more time in the more mundane things of life. It is as Christopher Isherwood said, an ability to fall in love with someone of the same gender. here's what I know: I loved my (now ex)wife when we got married, but that love didn't last long, and hetero-sex didn't do it for me. My partner and I are looking at 6 years together very soon, and I can't believe how much in love we are; I keep thinking that it will diminish, but for some reason it continues to grow stronger and deeper. ahhh, it is about the romance. :love:

[Vanessa White]

I have also used, and heard used, the term "affectional orientation", which although seems a vague representation of what I feel for my partner, it comes a lot closer than sexual orientation. That really does, in my mind, diminish what we truly have in so many ways. Keltic's example is perfect, about his ex-wife; we have come to value so many of ourselves in our society based on sex, attractiveness, appeal, etc., but what it really comes down to on a very basic level, is who it is that you really, truly, LOVE......

Jason, I would encourage you, at this point of struggling, to not entertain the idea of Exodus for very long. Here, you have understanding voices that will embrace you throughout this struggle that you are having. Exodus makes it their job to have persons not be gay anymore; although I don't think that is possible anyhow, they do it and a person ends up feeling a lot of shame for still having the feelings. Reach out to resources that will support you throughout your process, not try to change who you really are.

You are loved, embraced and welcomed here......:love:

[scott snedeker]

It took my years to undo the damage I did to myself all those years. Took me years to be happy in my own gay skin and be happy with other gay men. Guess what? I went a little further this past weekend by going on a yoga retreat with other gay men. It was phenominal! The love in the room was trememdous.

So yeah- there is someone out there who is waiting for you to own up to who and what you are so they can share that shining light that is inside of you. Really. There is.

But if you reject yourself out of fear and 'what others think', then the road ahead only gets harder and harder. Believe me, a number of us here have been there and done that. And if we could, we would like to spare you that pain.




Search for what gives you inner peace. If you feel better after dialoging with us, Continue to read, continue to post. Explore some of our suggestions. It could save you years of searching and suffering.

When you do find something that gives you some peace within your soul, Stay with it. Practice every day. Like learning a new language you get better with practice. Like learning a new language it gets more comfortable the more you use it



Jack Kornfield instructs his students to practice the Buddhist meditation of forgiveness every day to let go of self blame, self loathing and suffering. I am a good pupil and I find that inner peace lasts longer and comes more easily each day.

Learning to love yourself as God created you and loves you is your first best destiny and priority. Afterward, Everything else comes to you with little or no effort.

Below is a link to a short story I wrote on this forum of a young man who was taught to hate himself and unlearned this lie to love hiself and others deeply.



http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3925

[Zerbie]

As I peel back the decades putting myself back into my mind I remember the mortal fear at the thought of letting anyone, especially my parents, Know how I was really turned on by guys only. It was just as intense as the icy stone cold feeling in my chest I got when I thought about my death for too long.

Because only 6 years prior I was twelve years old and at that time I discovered that the exciting sexual feelings that were awakening within me. I had "special buddies" that I just loved to run naked in the woods with and share special sexual secrets with.

And then It hit me. This is what faggots are! This is what my Father told me were the most evil sick dangerous worthless criminal deviants who raped and murdered children were. He told me how when one of these came on to him while he was hitchhiking, and showed me (using my arm) how he grabbed his arm and broke it over his knee!

:'(:'(:'(:'(:'( Scotty!! :'(:'(:'(:'(:'(

Oh. God. Scotty! :'(:'(:'(

(((((((((((( Scotty ))))))))))))) Precious Scotty. :love: You dear, sweet, innocent little Scotty, what an enormous trauma.
What happened to you just made me cry.

To have It hit you like that. Like a cold wave, or a cold stone heavy in your stomach, probably. Sweet little baby, they should have never taught you such awful things. They were wrong.:mad:

All that anguish, all that horrible fear, based on a lie.
Scotty, I'm sorry your father did that to you, all so unknowingly.


How could my father be wrong? The law agreed with him. The church agreed with him. He was a loving and involved father in every other way. He was fun and clearly loved making my brother and me happy.

So at eighteen I remained in my own eyes inadequate. The secret abomination I had to protect my family from.
Dear, dear Scotty, it breaks my heart that this was done to you.




The problem was not that I was attracted to men. The problem was that I was taught to hate myself for it. Only later in life Did I find a way to "undo" the false lesson.

To reconnect to the innocent twelve year old running playfully nakedly through the woods with my special buddies. Innocent to the false lessons of self hate. My teacher's name was Adrain. He taught me that my soul was not broken or sick but disconnected from my inner being. He carefully showed me how to reconnect with my Heart of Innocence. It is a sexually playful loving connection with my conscious self and others.

Thank God you have regained that connection. No wonder you are so joyful in your posts here. :):love:
Thank God for you.
I love you.
:love:



So, my little brother, search for a way to let go of your fear, your self hate, your Guilt. Do it safely. Maybe this is not the time to come out to your family. Make this clear to your roomate. You are a beautiful Shining sexual being. Joy is your entitlement.
I wish I had someone give me this kind of direction when I was your age. Life is supposed to be fun.

LOVE,

Your big brother,

Scotty
[/url]

Beautiful Scotty, your words are angels.
:love::dove:

[scott snedeker]

You have incredible compassion! You touch so many people! I don't want you to worry that I have those feelings any more. The practice of forgiveness means letting go of the emotional attachment to what has happened.

You are such a shining soul and I fear to drain your compassion and mingle love with grief! The spirit has limitless ability to heal. I think of both of us as teachers and pupils. I love you my sweet yellow-crested Zerbie with a heart of a lioness!:love::love::love:

[Daniel]

Jason- as I read back over this thread this morning, one small thing lept out at me: [I]you. I am sorry my dear young man, but you avatar on this site practicaly screams 'gay'. And you know what? That is Ok. From my point of view, your avatar says "I need attention'. And guess what? You do. Just from the right places and people. Personally speaking, I would steer clear of the ex-gay people. I do not see any good that can come of that. Sure. You could construct a false sense of accomplishment, a sense that you are 'beating' something. But who wants to spend their life in some titantic (and as one goes along it does become titatanic and the ship does eventually sink!) struggle.

The ex-gay movement talks a great deal about surrender. But hardly the surrender that really matters. In their paradigm, one surrenders to God, and the desire one has for another man has nothing to do with God at all, being sinful. I say this is ignorance on a profound level.

Everything starts with desire. We have the desire for shelter, the desire for food, and yes- the desire to have sex. Anyone who has studied phsychology knows that these desires are part of human nature. None of them is anything to be ashamed of. Does that mean we should eat whatever and whenever we want? Of course not- anymore than we should have sex with others in like fashion. Binging doesn't make for good health in either area! ;) The old sages were right: one eventually finds that moderation is a good thing. But tell that to a young man with hormones raging and it's not a very good sell! :lol: Youth- does want to have its way.

And then there is the desire for love. This brings matters to another level. It's not just about sex anymore. It's not just about getting one's rocks off. The desire for love- the giving and receiving of it- eventually turns into the desire to authentically to one's self and that of the other person (and in some cases persons- a nod to Scotty here!).

Love and Relationship is such a wonderful and complex matter- philosphers and sages have been thinking and writing about it for thousands of years. But before you can even think about such things, I believe you will have to come to grips with your own nature- take the bull by the horns as it were.

Fear keeps one from doing that. Fear keeps one in the control of others. Fear stops all movement forward.

At the retreat I was at this past weekend a teacher said the following, which resonated with me, and which I pass on to you:




"Come to the edge!" He said.
And they said: "No!"

"Come to the edge!" He said.
And they said: "We are afraid."

"Come to the edge!" He said.
And he pushed them.
And they flew.

[Jasonlopez_too]

It's hard for me to seperate the thoughts in my mind. I have lust for sexy guys, but I don't know if that translates to the other part of it like you said, the emotional love part.

And how does my picture make me seem gay? or like I want attention? Sorry, I'm kinda oblivious to that stuff.

I don't want to mess up my life, but I want to be as sure as I can about things before I start trying a certain direction. If I say I'm gay, even if I change my mind later, everyone will still think i'm gay for the rest of my life.

Is there a free test people can take that is accurate about finding out stuff like that?

Thanx for all of you guys help.

[keltic63]

Is there a free test people can take that is accurate about finding out stuff like that?

Thanx for all of you guys help.

I don't know that I'd trust any online test for being gay. It would all be based on stereotypes.

Is there a counselor, reputable counselor, you could speak to? I forget, are you in college? Is there someone on campus you could speak to about this issue?

[Daniel]

It's hard for me to seperate the thoughts in my mind. I have lust for sexy guys, but I don't know if that translates to the other part of it like you said, the emotional love part.

And how does my picture make me seem gay? or like I want attention? Sorry, I'm kinda oblivious to that stuff.

I don't want to mess up my life, but I want to be as sure as I can about things before I start trying a certain direction. If I say I'm gay, even if I change my mind later, everyone will still think i'm gay for the rest of my life.

Is there a free test people can take that is accurate about finding out stuff like that?

Thanx for all of you guys help.


But look at that picture you have as an avatar: a very handsome bare-chested man in his early 20's on a Gay and Christian (not all of us use the label Christian btw- though I would venture that all of us follow the teachings of the Carpenter in one way or another) doesn't exactly say 'Please look away'. :lol:

And my dear Jason: there is nothing wrong with looking. And looking good too. That is what youth is about anyway. As I see it, everyone under 25 is pretty radiant and beautiful. But that's something many people only see as they get older. ;)

Love and Lust. So many want to place these two things on opposite sides, as if they are light and dark, good and bad, right and wrong. And I have to tell you as someone who has been with the same man for a long time (15 years) that this is a very reductionist way of looking at the world, in fact, experiencing the world. Ideally, one learns to combine one's passion (you might call that lust) with a depth of emotional commitment to your partner (love). They are simply horses of a different color that - in time- learn to travel together in tandem with you in the drivers seat. And what is lust after all? To put it simply, it is desire. And there is- in my book- nothing terrible about desire, expecially one when learns to act and behave in an ethical manner to one's self and others.

If there was no desire, nothing would get done in the world. There would be no art, no film, no beauty, babies or bathtubs. Everything comes from desire- is propelled by it. Without is- one has Nada.

The only test you can take is the one you give yourself by mingling with people, places and letting go, as much as possible of the notion of what 'other people think'. That's a real life-killer, whether one is straight or gay or a martian.

When you stop caring about what other people think about you, you will be a lot more free to create- and be- the person who you already are. And that person needs no validation from anyone.

[paul]

Dear Jason,

I am sorry you are struggling so, most of us here certainly understand. Sorry I am joining this conversation so late.

I tried to be "ex-gay" for about 33 years. I have been through several Exodus programs as well as to Exodus recommended counselors. I agree with Keltic, what they espouse is repression. For more info you can check out

http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/

You can feel free to pm me if you prefer.

Jason,

You are in charge. No one can make you make a declaration one way or the other whether you are gay or otherwise. What I am saying is, step back and give yourself some breathing room, you are under no obligation to make a declaration to anyone at this point. You already know you are attracted to guys, just work from there to understand who you are. You don't have to accept anyones label or preconceived ideas of who you are. You don't have to assume a label or identity that you haven't defined for yourself. "To thine own self be true."

What is wrong with "lust?" That just means desire. If you had similar desire towards the opposite sex would it be causing you the same angst? IOW, is it really the desire that's the issue or the object of your desire? I ditto what Daniel said on this topic. Desire is natural. How good would food be if you were never hungry? Maturity is all about directing desire in a loving way, not crushing desire, but it's not bad or evil to be immature. (I'm not saying you are "immature," that often has little to do with age).

[Zerbie]

I don't want to mess up my life, but I want to be as sure as I can about things before I start trying a certain direction. If I say I'm gay, even if I change my mind later, everyone will still think i'm gay for the rest of my life.


Dear Jason,

The guys have already spoken many wise words (like angels they are.) You do NOT have to make any kind of decision or announcement now. Defer that til later, til you are sure of things.

You are under no obligation to 'come out' if you think you might be gay. As Paul says, you are in charge. You can just wait until love hits you between the shoulder blades with an arrow before you tell anyone anything about your feelings.

As for 'everyone will think you're gay.' Tell ya hon', people are going to think whatever they are going to think. There is very little we can do to control that. People might think that you are gay, or they might think the moon is made of cheese, or any number of other good or bad things according to what is in THEIR mind - not yours. And guess what: they are worrying about what YOU think of THEM just as much.

We cannot control what someone else thinks of us. So the best way to be happy in this regard is to lose interest in caring about what they think.

And furthermore, anyone with any substance at all will understand if you experience changes in how you perceive yourself re: gay-bi-straight. Real friends will accept you wherever you fall on that spectrum and they will love you because you're Jason, not b/c you're gay or straight or whatever, and they will not care what orientation you are or once thought you were.

[tymejumper]

I tried using the babel fish translator at Yahoo but it didn't have Portuguese to English.



Babel fish translator? Like in Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy Babel fish?

[Alecto]

Babel fish translator? Like in Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy Babel fish?

Totally why they picked the name. ;)

Looks like yahoo (http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?fr=avbbf-us) took the site over; used to be alta vista back in the day.

[tymejumper]

Totally why they picked the name. ;)

Looks like yahoo (http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?fr=avbbf-us) took the site over; used to be alta vista back in the day.



That is so cool! It's actually my favorite book, or should I say books. I loved Restaurant at the end of the universe!

[jewelsangel]

Jason,

I have read through all the posts in this thread, and many folks have some great and encouraging words. I have only been with my "wife" (can't marry in my state) for two years now. She and I started off as best friends. She had already had a homosexual relationship. I had not and identified as straight at the time. I spent a year praying in tongues and worshipping and going to church with her, trying to help her to get "free" from the "homosexual spirits" that had taken advantage of her. Some church people would say that in being so close to her, I opened myself up to be "attacked by the homosexual spirits" and now I am possessed and need to be delivered. What those people don't know is how long and hard I prayed to have a best friend to love me for who I am - since I was very young. And it was in the midst of our friendship that we fell in love, recognized the gift that God had given us in each other, and accepted that we were put on this earth to help each other through this life. Nobody else matters. We don't want to be around anybody else - male or female.

Maybe that is what it will come down to for you. You don't have to label yourself because our society likes lables. Hang out with men and women. Date whoever you choose. Your heart will be tied to the one God has already chosen for you.

Finally, I must stress this --- nomatter what anybody including me has said to you on this board and elsewhere, your true source of truth is God himself. Pray and fast over what He wants you to do. Who He wants you to be. Focus your attention on Him. Don't worry about love and sex and fitting in a category. Pray and pray and pray, moment to moment. Honor Him with your gifts. He might surprise you with who He sends your way.

[Rick336]

Some church people would say that in being so close to her, I opened myself up to be "attacked by the homosexual spirits" and now I am possessed and need to be delivered. What those people don't know is how long and hard I prayed to have a best friend to love me for who I am - since I was very young. And it was in the midst of our friendship that we fell in love, recognized the gift that God had given us in each other, and accepted that we were put on this earth to help each other through this life.

Jason,

The people of your church that believe there are "homosexual spirits" that attack people and make them homosexual are not in touch with reality. These "spirits" do not exist and never have.

I'm glad that you have found someone and are now in love. Enjoy each other and live as happily as you can.

Rick

[jewelsangel]

Rick 336,

I'm sorry - I think you misinterpreted my message (a reply to Jason) as one posted by Jason. I wrote about the homosexual spirits. Or maybe you meant to address me in your post - Jewelsangel? In any case, thank you for the encouraging words. I definitely enjoy my partner - I am working on the living as happily as I can.

Enough about me -- Jason, you should aim for your happiness as well. God wants you to be happy. And in the moment you experience true joy, you will know that is what He wants for you.

[Rick336]

I think you misinterpreted my message.

Oops. Yes. You're right. I meant to direct my response to you. Sorry.:rolleyes:

Rick

[Jasonlopez_too]

Jason,

I have read through all the posts in this thread, and many folks have some great and encouraging words. I have only been with my "wife" (can't marry in my state) for two years now. She and I started off as best friends. She had already had a homosexual relationship. I had not and identified as straight at the time. I spent a year praying in tongues and worshipping and going to church with her, trying to help her to get "free" from the "homosexual spirits" that had taken advantage of her. Some church people would say that in being so close to her, I opened myself up to be "attacked by the homosexual spirits" and now I am possessed and need to be delivered. What those people don't know is how long and hard I prayed to have a best friend to love me for who I am - since I was very young. And it was in the midst of our friendship that we fell in love, recognized the gift that God had given us in each other, and accepted that we were put on this earth to help each other through this life. Nobody else matters. We don't want to be around anybody else - male or female.

I think there is at least a little bit of spirits involved, one time I was looking at some porn and was looking at a girl and a guy together when i was 12 i think, and i went to sleep and i could hear a demon voice calling me to allow him to have control. I know I resisted then, but it made me know that there was some spiritual influence. I feel like if I get to close to my roomate Grant that I will be influenced like you were. Like if I let myself go to a certain level of friendship with him it might make me not be able to resist loving him like happened with you.

[keltic63]

I think there is at least a little bit of spirits involved, one time I was looking at some porn and was looking at a girl and a guy together when i was 12 i think, and i went to sleep and i could hear a demon voice calling me to allow him to have control. I know I resisted then, but it made me know that there was some spiritual influence. I feel like if I get to close to my roomate Grant that I will be influenced like you were. Like if I let myself go to a certain level of friendship with him it might make me not be able to resist loving him like happened with you.

I think you missed the point of Jewel's post. It wasn't about demons and spirits, it was about praying for her friend, and praying for someone to love her, and in the midst of this, these 2 fell in love.

The "demon" part comes in as a refutation: there are people who would say this of their love. they would say that Jewel got too close to this demon-possessed girl and now she is possessed. I have to go with NOT POSSIBLE on this one.

At 12, how do you know for sure there was a connection between looking at some porn (curiousity for most boys around that age) and hearing a voice in the night? AND, dear Jason, if you think that by just being around gay people one of those gay demons might jump on your back, how do justify coming here and talking to so many gay people? surely one of those little devils will know you're typing away at your computer and enter your soul. or do they need physical proximity to do that? what about people you encounter everyday? can you catch a gay demon from the waiter, or the mechanic, or the barista at Starbucks?

[Jasonlopez_too]

:mad:

you don't have to make fun of me.

[Matt Algren]

:mad:

you don't have to make fun of me.
He's not making fun, he's correcting the notion that you can catch The Gay from being around The Gays. It's a silly notion, and one that needs to be stamped out.

He's also pointing out a flaw in your logic, which is important when you're looking for something to make you not gay.

[keltic63]

:mad:

you don't have to make fun of me.

as Matt pointed out, I'm not making fun of you, I'm taking your logic to the next step. In so doing, I hope to point out, humorously, that the idea of catching a gay demon from other gay people, is absurd.

Now, Jason, since you've gotten angry, let me express some of my own frustration with your posts. You continue posting here asking for advice, and several people have given you some excellent words of wisdom. However, you don't ever seem to be able to grasp what we've said to you. It seems you ignore our posts, and bring up a new challenge for us to answer. At other forums, such behavior would be called out as being a puppet or a troll. Could you please show me, because I'm the moderator, that our members are not wasting their time with you?

[Zerbie]

That is not making fun at all. But if you take the idea seriously, then it is a valid question: why would you seek out a community with many gay people in it if you were trying to avoid something that you believe is in them? Which suggests that you are conflicted about the 'demon' idea yourself. Are you? It seems like you are.

Here is my take on the thing when you were 12: if you felt interested in other boys at that age, and the male/female together wasn't doing it for you as much as the idea of two males, then you would have likely been very afraid of that fact. Any sense from inside you that you might like other guys would have been pictured or imagined as scary, and therefore as 'demonic.' So if you felt like you heard a voice in your dream connected to your erotic desires or curiosities, your mind would have explained it as "demon."

A 12 year old being curious about sexuality is innocent and is trying to learn. I doubt very much that there have ever been any things supernatural or demonic involved. I think you can explain the suspicion as one that came from the part of you that is very afraid of being gay. This world gives us a lot of reason to be afraid of being gay.

No matter what, Jason, God will always be there for one who wants to be close to Him. You cannot lose God. At worst, God may seem far away or unreachable, but that is just how things can seem. God will always be there if you want him. Nothing can keep God from you if you want Him there. Even if there are demons, even they cannot keep God from you. Trust that God is there. No matter how your questions about this gay stuff turn out in the short term, (or long term), you are ALWAYS loved by God. Even if you feel far away from Him. God loves you.

Jason, it is okay to be who/what you are, including if you are gay. God loves you. You are safe.
:love:

[Jasonlopez_too]

I know I'm dumb, but i do read all of your guys posts. And I appreciate it, I just am having a hard time right now.

[keltic63]

I know I'm dumb, but i do read all of your guys posts. And I appreciate it, I just am having a hard time right now.

please stop insulting yourself, you make it seem as if that is my intention, and I assure you, it is not. Is it possible for you to print out some of our responses and take some time to really think on them? That may help you.

[tdogg]

Hi Jason

I was raised Assemblies of God (Pentecostal) from a small child. At age 21, I would have sorta believed that there were a variety of demons just waiting to take hold of the unsuspecting. (Well, actually at age 21 I was making up for lost time in the party world, but...guess I would have admitted to believing in this demon thing if asked).

Now, at age 49 (dang how time flies!), I don't believe it at all. The A of G folks even believe a cold is caused by a demon, if you can believe that! There is no gay or homosexual demon, there are only homophobic controlling, fear-instilling demons called human beings. Those are the demons to be afraid of.

As you continue your life's journey, you will come to many truths, about yourself and about things that have been told to you. Just don't let what others try to tell you control who you are or who you love. If you are gay, believe me, after 49 years I've learned it's not a sin and it's not caused by a demon. Embrace it, live it, love it and don't let anyone take away your faith in God.

[scott snedeker]

I know I'm dumb, but i do read all of your guys posts. And I appreciate it, I just am having a hard time right now.


Take heart in that you are doing your best! You are here talking about how you were taught to despise yourself. That is very courgeous! You are facing the music, not getting high or drunk or lying to yourself!

Look how far you have come! So right now you are having trouble looking yourself in the eye and have to turn away because the feelings you were taught to have are too intense to face for too long.

I've been there! It's okay! You are precisely were you are supposed to be! You are doing you best! No one can ask for more. You are a good guy and a brave one!

Understand that you were taught to despise yourself and you can let go of that feeling a little bit more. After you do you will be able to look yourself in the eye a little bit longer.

read that again:

Understand that you were taught to despise yourself and you can let go of that feeling a little bit more. After you do you will be able to look yourself in the eye a little bit longer.


Baby steps my friend. You have much to unlearn! Much like I did!

Do you trust me? I'll make you a promise, Jason.

I won't tell you to do something that will ruin your life or Damn your soul.


You are a shining boy! I see it! We all see it! But the most important thing is for you to see it!

And the more you let go of the fear you were taught to feel, the better you will see it.

Baby steps:love::love::love:

[Zerbie]

I know I'm dumb, but i do read all of your guys posts. And I appreciate it, I just am having a hard time right now.

Never speak so badly about yourself again. Don't do it.

You are a bright guy, I can tell that from your posts. The problem is that you are going through a very difficult time. Your feelings run against what you were taught you needed to feel. That is why you are upset. It is confusing to be in that situation. You are not confused because of any flaw in your intelligence, you are confused because that is how healthy normally smart people feel In A Confusing Situation.

If you are not hurting other people or hurting yourself, if you are getting through the day okay, then you are doing just fine. Stick with it. Life can get better.

Practice seeing what is good about yourself. There ARE good things. For one thing, you take the time to consider various viewpoints. You are not close-minded. You value the input of other people. That means you are interested in relationship and forging connections. You are willing to grow, to consider other ideas, to change the way you always think or always do things if you find a way that is better.
You hesitate to "jump into" labeling yourself as gay: this means you are cautious, you care about how you present to the world, and you care about whether certain things are right or wrong. Those are all very, very good traits. Practice noticing them. You are a very good guy, Jason. :)

[jewelsangel]

Hey again, Jason:
You're right this is a tough position to be in, and a tough time. I am still struggling myself - with all of it, the whole idea of "gayness", the Christian thing, the church thing, the Spirit thing -- but when I step back, the one thing I am NOT struggling with is whether God loves me or not and whether or not my Jewel is an answer to my prayers. I am NOT struggling with the reality that my soulmate happens to be a woman. The biggest issue that Christians have with "homosexuality" is the "lust" and the "sex" part. They feel that sex with another of the same kind is not what God wants. That sex is/should be for married couples to have children and share a bond. The idea that one can share that type of bond with someone of the same sex is in essence against the nature of God. But when we step back --- what is REALLY the nature of GOD? Jewel is not her real name - but in truth, the only difference between me and my partner's names is one letter. We are so much the same and think the same and love each other's company that there is no doubt that God created us to be together. The nature of GOD is love and power and might and wisdom. The nature of GOD is reconciling His creations back to Him because He wants us to love Him as He loves us. He is not shocked that you are having these feelings. They are with you for a reason.

I have been struggling with what seems to be a continuous panic attack for the last several days because of guilt and because of some things my partner is going through physically. What is happening to me, in my eyes, is that as I begin to open up more and come out more, that I am being attacked spiritually by demons (I do believe they exist, personally) who don't want me to be what God made me to be. They want me to be scared. They want the church to have the wrong information and be stuck in traditional, religious ways that don't really have any bearing on changing the world. Soulforce is doing what God really wants - by bringing those who love Him together and sharing love. That is what we are all trying to do for you, Jason. We are sharing love because we are loving people.

Spirits -- what they really want is for us to be miserable and stay away from God. You really have to seak Him for yourself. Reading these boards is good - but your true answer lies with Him. Maybe He led you here for help. You think that is possible? I think I have been led here to share my story with others and to read about the same folks that I didn't think much of. Being on here just a short time has really opened my mind about a lot of things including myself. His work is not done in me yet though. Or You.

[keltic63]

I know I'm dumb, but i do read all of your guys posts. And I appreciate it, I just am having a hard time right now.


In light of your pm to me, Jason, I decided to come back and take a look at this thread. I know you feel like you haven't gotten what you came here for, but I think what you were looking for is someone to tell you that you're not gay. We can't do that for you, only YOU can.

What I did notice about your interaction here is that you didn't answer the questions that were put to you. If you had done that, If you go back and do that now, I think you'd find some great help in all of those posts. Please, go back to page one and read the first few responses to those posts. Answer the questions, if not for us, at least for yourself. Have you kept the phone number Zerbie gave you?

866-4-U-TREVOR (866-488-7386) http://www.thetrevorproject.org/home1.aspx

It's not just a suicide prevention hotline, they help young people in crisis. You don't need to be suicidal to give them a call. Perhaps they can put you in touch with someone locally who can speak with you face to face.

Again, I wish you all the best.

[Jasonlopez_too]

Jason,

What is it that you feel you would be "giving up"?

Giving up on the struggle to deny your sexual identity?

Giving up on the supposed advantages of being heterosexual?

I'm not wanting to argue or judge you---just asking you to clarify what you are thinking/feeling.

Many of us may have had the same (or similar) feelings.

By the way, I believe there are some counselors/therapists out there who have a kind of survey or multiple choice kind of "instrument" that helps people sort out in a seemingly "objective" way what their feelings are about their sexual and gender identities.

Might not hurt to have a counselor or therapist who can help you sort out feeings without pushing you in one direction or another. (No good therapist should be pushing you in a direction you aren't freely choosing for yourself.)

Steven Webster


I have been seeing a counselor at my church. He says if I don't try to do the right thing according to the bible, that it is living in sin, that it is rebellion. I have been thinking about it, and I think I am gay as far as attraction and affection and lust and love, but I still see it as a wrong thing. I can feel that my feelings and thoughts are wrong. When I do something that is gay I feel bad after I do it, even though I enjoy it during. And I seem to keep doing stuff, and then feeling bad about it, judging myself. If I really want to change how I feel, i think I can eventually.

[Zerbie]

I have been seeing a counselor at my church. He says if I don't try to do the right thing according to the bible, that it is living in sin, that it is rebellion. I have been thinking about it, and I think I am gay as far as attraction and affection and lust and love, but I still see it as a wrong thing. I can feel that my feelings and thoughts are wrong. When I do something that is gay I feel bad after I do it, even though I enjoy it during. And I seem to keep doing stuff, and then feeling bad about it, judging myself. If I really want to change how I feel, i think I can eventually.

:'(:'(:'(:'(

((((( Jason )))))

Know going in to any attempt to change your innermost feelings that millions before you have tried and found it impossible. I want you to know that, in case you find it impossible too. So that you do NOT blame yourself for not being able to do something that cannot be done.

It sounds like you have to try it for yourself to believe what the other guys have been telling you. If you have to try it, then I guess that's what you have to do.

I do not want you hurt. I do not want you hurt by a counselor, or by yourself, or anyone. If you try to change from gay to straight and it doesn't work -- do NOT blame yourself. It means you were not supposed to change. Please remember that. And before you sign up for ANY kind of ex-gay program, read Wayne Besen's book. Read it first. Just be informed that these kinds of programs have been discredited time and time again for many decades.

If you are open to being persuaded, allow me to persuade you: Jason, do NOT put your life (and your sense of spiritual self-worth) in the hands of those who presume to tell you what feelings you may and may not have. Who you are is not wrong. They are lying to you if they tell you that.

Who you are is irreplaceable. Valuable. Of eternal, intrinsic worth.

If we cannot persuade you and you try an ex-gay thing, and then it hurts worse than before, leave the ex-gay thing. Leave it behind. If it tears you down, leave.

There is love for you in this world, lots and lots of it, including if you are gay. God loves you, including if you are gay. "Even" if you "do gay things," which I believe means have sexual contact with other guys. Yes.

God loves you. You can't lose that. :love::dove:

[Matt Algren]

If I really want to change how I feel, i think I can eventually.Leaving all the rest aside, you need to understand that no, you can't change your romantic attraction to the male of the species. That's just not the way we're built. Please read this article (http://www.soulforce.org/article/1365) by Rev. Mel White. It contains real, documented evidence that trying to change that fundamental part of your self is destructive, including this statement from the American Psychiatric Association: "Research findings suggest that efforts to repair homosexuals are nothing more than social prejudice garbed in psychological accouterments."

Read the whole thing, Jason. Read it and re-read it.

Then go here (http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-gay-christian) and read Rev. White's article on what the Bible says. I agree with your counselor that you should try to do the right thing according to the Bible. The Bible never says that romantic attraction to the same gender needs to be or should be or even can be fixed. It's not there.

This is important, Jason, so I want you to hear me. You are important to God, whether you're gay, straight, or bisexual. Please don't ever let anyone convince you that you have to hurt yourself to please God. That's a backward, warped view that is clearly wrong in God's eyes.

Let me clarify that this isn't about having sex, it's about attraction. Promiscuous, anonymous sex is a whole other issue that isn't at all related to this one. What we're talking about here is attraction, and Jason, ain't nothing wrong with it.

[Alecto]

I think it's also important to note that many of the larger conversion groups are moving away from even claiming to change feelings. You will probably always have those feelings. (http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/04/12/290). I would give serious thought to seeking a secular counselor who might give you a different perspective, but at very least, recognize that what people are capable of changing is NOT their attractions, but merely different ways they respond to them ("behaviors" and identities). wish you the best.

[tymejumper]

I have been seeing a counselor at my church. He says if I don't try to do the right thing according to the bible, that it is living in sin, that it is rebellion.



When I read your post I actually cried. Jason, I will tell you the same thing I tell my clients. Get a second opinion. When you are about to make decisions about your life, get a second opinion. Get another NEUTRAL counselor, one with no religious affiliation to your church, that is the only way you will get an honest opinion.

There are many Pastors, Rev. and other religious people who will tell you that there is nothing wrong with being gay. You should ask yourself "if it says what my Pastor and councelor says it does, ALL religious persons would have the same thing to say, that it is wrong" However, not all religious leaders say it is wrong. Logically, we must conclude that as there is dissent within the religious community, it must not be wrong. As a Christian, you must follow the New Testament, there is not a single thing in it that precludes that homosexuality is wrong or sinfull. Would not Jesus have said something if it were a sin? He certainly said plenty about other things. I think it would have made it into the New Testament if it were actually that important.

[Depdem]

But from everything I've heard, people can't change their sexual orientation, and I can't be gay, I just can't. I'm not sure what to do.

Imo, it doesn't matter what sexuality you are or if you change in your lifetime. I dont think sexuality is fixed either. So if your hearing that you might want to consider other places. The internet a great way to explore them.

You can always be celibate if you so choose to, or celibately gay, meaning no SS relationships for you. I would liek to point out though... if your doing it to appease society, then you might want to give it a bit more thought. Happiness comes in many ways but i dont think catering to those around you to make you happy will make you happier than to find THE/A person that compliments you and you can share your life with.

[Jasonlopez_too]

I have tried sex with several girls lately to see if I could start likeing girls more. I think it's working. I think it proves that I'm not gay if I have sex with them and I can orgasm, right? I feel better about that part, I fell like I'm liking girls because sex feels good with them. I feel a little bad about having sex and not wanting a relationship with them, i mean at least not right now. But it makes me feel a lot better.

Me and my roomate decided to split an appartment for the summer and work here in town instead of going home for the summer. It's pretty cool, Grant is fun to be around. I talked him into it because I like being around him. I didn't want to wait until the fall to be around him again. He's a good friend, we always talk a lot about my problems. He talks a lot like you guys, about how it's not as important what other people think. He always makes me calm when i get all stressed out, hehe.

It's nice to have someone to come home to at night after I work. Not in a gay type way, just as a friend. He always gets me surprises, hehe, it's fun. Anyway, I think I am learning to like girls a lot, I even stopped looking at naked guys on the internet for a few days and looked at some naked girls.

I guess I don't really need an ex-gay group, I can just keep making progress on my own. :D It's getting easier than I thought it would be. I just have to keep going.

[keltic63]

I have tried sex with several girls lately to see if I could start likeing girls more. I think it's working. I think it proves that I'm not gay if I have sex with them and I can orgasm, right? I feel better about that part, I fell like I'm liking girls because sex feels good with them. I feel a little bad about having sex and not wanting a relationship with them, i mean at least not right now. But it makes me feel a lot better.

Me and my roomate decided to split an appartment for the summer and work here in town instead of going home for the summer. It's pretty cool, Grant is fun to be around. I talked him into it because I like being around him. I didn't want to wait until the fall to be around him again. He's a good friend, we always talk a lot about my problems. He talks a lot like you guys, about how it's not as important what other people think. He always makes me calm when i get all stressed out, hehe.

It's nice to have someone to come home to at night after I work. Not in a gay type way, just as a friend. He always gets me surprises, hehe, it's fun. Anyway, I think I am learning to like girls a lot, I even stopped looking at naked guys on the internet for a few days and looked at some naked girls.

I guess I don't really need an ex-gay group, I can just keep making progress on my own. :D It's getting easier than I thought it would be. I just have to keep going.


I hate to break it to you.....I was married for 17 years and I have 3 kids, so I can "do it" with a woman and even reach orgasm. Lot's of people can, but that doesn't change their basic attractions, nor their orientations.

Maybe it's getting easier to sublimate (http://allpsych.com/dictionary/s.html). I know I thought it was working for me.



Sublimation
A defense mechanism where undesired or unacceptable impulses are transformed into behaviors which are accepted by society.


and since you're telling us how much you appreciate having that roommate there for you when you get home, you didn't want to be without him all summer, that totally negates the "i'm not gay anymore" line. (guess that means you're not gay anyless either)

[wmanion]

I have to agree with Keltic on this one. I was also married for 11 years and fathered three children. I was attracted to men at such an early age but thought if I went to church, dated girls, had sex with girls, and even married a girl that my gayness would be gone. NOT EVEN CLOSE. Sexual Orientation and Sexual acts are two very different things. It was not until I came into acceptance of myself that "the truth finally did set me free." I was being unfair to myself by denying my sexuality and I was also being unfair to the women in my life. I love God and he loves me just the way he made me and once I accepted that, the barriers that kept me from living an honest life fell away. Oh you can pretend to be anything you want...but deep inside you know...and God knows.

[keltic63]

I have to agree with Keltic on this one. I was also married for 11 years and fathered three children. I was attracted to men at such an early age but thought if I went to church, dated girls, had sex with girls, and even married a girl that my gayness would be gone. NOT EVEN CLOSE. Sexual Orientation and Sexual acts are two very different things. It was not until I came into acceptance of myself that "the truth finally did set me free." I was being unfair to myself by denying my sexuality and I was also being unfair to the women in my life. I love God and he loves me just the way he made me and once I accepted that, the barriers that kept me from living an honest life fell away. Oh you can pretend to be anything you want...but deep inside you know...and God knows.

and another thing.....I know now that I wasn't a very good lover with women, and I had no idea sex could be so fantastic until I was with a man.

sexual acts, as wmanion has pointed out, are indeed possible, but there is so much more to orientation, attraction, love and intimacy than those physical acts.

[tdogg]

Please Jason, for your own sake and that of the girls you are having sex with, always use CONDOMS.

Good luck in your life's journey, I hope you find what it is you are looking for. :love::rainbow::pray:

[Jasonlopez_too]

I use condoms. I know some of the girls I've been with lately get around a lot. They are pretty gross, :lol: hehe.


I thought that who you had sex with was what made you gay or straight. I mean it can't be gay to have a gay roomate, or even to have a friend that you like to be around that happenes to be the same sex, right. Just because i like to hang out with Grant and do stuff with him doesn't mean we are boyfriends. I think that if you do something for a long time you just make it a habbit, like I look at nude pictures of guys because I'm used to doing it for a long time. And I was having sex with some guys because I liked what they looked like probably because I was looking at pictures of guys so much. But I feel like if I'm around girls a lot I will change my addictions and like girls a lot. I think that if I did find a girl and get married I would feel a lot different. Grant's just someone to give me a shoulder to :'( cry on sometimes. I love him like a good friend :love: but I don't think I love him like people are supposed to love girls.

[keltic63]

I use condoms. I know some of the girls I've been with lately get around a lot. They are pretty gross, :lol: hehe.


I thought that who you had sex with was what made you gay or straight. I mean it can't be gay to have a gay roomate, or even to have a friend that you like to be around that happenes to be the same sex, right. Just because i like to hang out with Grant and do stuff with him doesn't mean we are boyfriends. I think that if you do something for a long time you just make it a habbit, like I look at nude pictures of guys because I'm used to doing it for a long time. And I was having sex with some guys because I liked what they looked like probably because I was looking at pictures of guys so much. But I feel like if I'm around girls a lot I will change my addictions and like girls a lot. I think that if I did find a girl and get married I would feel a lot different. Grant's just someone to give me a shoulder to :'( cry on sometimes. I love him like a good friend :love: but I don't think I love him like people are supposed to love girls.


a good friend told me that if you allow someone to speak long enough, they will tell you what they really need. I think you just told us.

as for addictions: I'm sorry you think that loving someone is an addiction like drugs or alcohol or porn. but trying to get addicted to girls by looking at porn and having sex with them is a lot like trying to be taller by hanging out with tall people. It just doesn't work. not to mention that it is unethical to use the women in that way. AND it's your own version of what you would experience in ex-gay therapy.

and I'm going to blunt: it's just plain dumb.

[tdogg]

A person can have sex with anyone, regardless of sexual orientation. And you might like it enough to have an orgasm. Human physiology is pretty resourceful at taking care of bodily needs.

I've had sex with men, I was with my ex husband for 17.5 years. That didn't make me straight. I gave it a good shot for most of my life. When I finally gave up pretending, accepted myself and learned to love myself, gay and all, I was fortunate enough to find my current girlfriend/partner of 3 1/2 years.

I know this is who I am and who I'm meant to be with. I connect like I never have with men. It's more than physical. It's also mental, emotional and spiritual. I feel like a complete person, like it's the most natural thing in the world. It felt at first like I was the prodigal daughter finally returning home. Now it feels like I've been home forever.

But I'm 49. You are a much younger soul and have much to learn. For one to grow, they must first learn how to accept and love themselves, before they can truly love another person. You might think about putting aside trying to figure out who you should be with, and concentrate on personal growth. When one can find true happiness within, then happiness is possible with another.

[tymejumper]

Oh yeah, that really screwed me up bad. I dated guys, but liked girls. I had lots of sex with guys, sometimes enjoying it but mostly not. I just didnt feel the emotional connection to them the way I feel with women. I even married a gay man, had 3 kids and put up with feeling like I was missing something.

Of course, it is really posible you are bisexual and attracted to both sexes. Zerbie is and she thought she was a lesbian at first. I thought I was bi at first also, because I could have sex and orgasm with a man. Of course it was all rather meaningless. I didn't know about making love and feeling complete until I had my first woman. Wow, talk about fireworks, in a way no man can compare to.

You can't make yourself gay or make yourself straight, by just ignoring your feelings and trying to feel something you don't will only be unfair to the person you are with if you are pretending or trying to be something you are not. You could really hurt them badly when all they did was love you. You would not be doing it on purpose but it would eventually happen because the closet had a tendancy to suffocate you after awhile. I did it for 18 years, until I could not any longer.

I am really interested in your friend that you can't wait to see and have feelings for but not in a 'gay' way. What exactly does that mean? A gay way? I think you have a few deeper feelings than you admit for him as you can't wait to see him and talked him into sharing an apartment because of that.

The point to all this is that you have to accept yourself and realize you are fine the way you are, and no one can decide for you if you are gay or straight. If you don't accept who you are, no matter who you are, you will be destined to be very unhappy for a long time.

[tymejumper]

I thought that who you had sex with was what made you gay or straight.



I hate to break it to you, its who your HEART loves and desires that makes you gay or straight. Human sexuality being what it is, a person can masturbate to orgasm also so that does not mean they only want sex with themselves.

And yes, you are feeling the way that guys are told they should love girls. First, they can't wait to be with them, then they start to rely on them as a shoulder to cry on. If Grant is gay also, you need to make it clear that you are not sure so he doesnt fall in love with you and get hurt. Also, you can't wait for fall to get here to see him again, that is NOT how best friends or even good friends feel towards each other. My best female friend (for 27 years) is in CA and I love her and miss her, but I do not desire her and I am a lesbian. I don't feel soemthing is lacking if I don't see her for a year or two. I can wait to see her, but I miss her.

[jewelsangel]

Jason,
I really think you are trying too hard. What I gather from your recent messages is that you (in essence) don't know who you are. You really should spend some time with the Lord on your own. Don't focus on sex or sexuality or who you are supposed to be with. Focus on scripture. Focus on every moment of every day that He gives you breath. Stop trying and just be. Sleeping with a whole bunch of people male or female to prove a point to yourself will only make you feel worse in the long run. We can give you all the advice under the sun (and so can your pastor/counselor/church people), but none of that matters if you don't spend time praying about these things yourself.

Angel

[Matt Algren]

I've said it in private, and now I'm going to say it in public. "Jasonlopez_too" is winding us up. It wouldn't surprise me if he and Donny were the same person.

[tdogg]

I've said it in private, and now I'm going to say it in public. "Jasonlopez_too" is winding us up. It wouldn't surprise me if he and Donny were the same person.

So, I was thinking the same thing. Not necessary that he was Donny, but that Mr. Lopez is playing us. Which really pisses me off. But erring on the side of compassion just in case he is out there floundering.

If you are less than honest Jason, shame on you. Go play games somewhere else. If you are truly seeking answers, then be genuine in your responses. We will be your friend. :love:

[keltic63]

on June 9th:
I have been seeing a counselor at my church. He says if I don't try to do the right thing according to the bible, that it is living in sin, that it is rebellion. I have been thinking about it, and I think I am gay as far as attraction and affection and lust and love, but I still see it as a wrong thing. I can feel that my feelings and thoughts are wrong. When I do something that is gay I feel bad after I do it, even though I enjoy it during. And I seem to keep doing stuff, and then feeling bad about it, judging myself. If I really want to change how I feel, i think I can eventually.

on June 16th:
I have tried sex with several girls lately to see if I could start likeing girls more. I think it's working. I think it proves that I'm not gay if I have sex with them and I can orgasm, right? I feel better about that part, I fell like I'm liking girls because sex feels good with them. I feel a little bad about having sex and not wanting a relationship with them, i mean at least not right now. But it makes me feel a lot better.

Me and my roomate decided to split an appartment for the summer and work here in town instead of going home for the summer. It's pretty cool, Grant is fun to be around. I talked him into it because I like being around him. I didn't want to wait until the fall to be around him again. He's a good friend, we always talk a lot about my problems. He talks a lot like you guys, about how it's not as important what other people think. He always makes me calm when i get all stressed out, hehe.

It's nice to have someone to come home to at night after I work. Not in a gay type way, just as a friend. He always gets me surprises, hehe, it's fun. Anyway, I think I am learning to like girls a lot, I even stopped looking at naked guys on the internet for a few days and looked at some naked girls.

I guess I don't really need an ex-gay group, I can just keep making progress on my own. :D It's getting easier than I thought it would be. I just have to keep going.

gay to straight in one week. I'm leaning more and more toward puppet, troll, or player.

I'm done responding. others: continue at your discretion.

[matthewspeed]

gay to straight in one week. I'm leaning more and more toward puppet, troll, or player.

I'm done responding. others: continue at your discretion.



I AGREE! This is getting a bit old.

[scott snedeker]

It is the emotional vibration that is activated within me that I own.

Jason,

Grant activates within you the emotional vibration of love. Focus on your own reflection in him. Do you see him as a shining gay soul? What makes him entitled to be gay and cherished? Why would you be different?

You are entitled to be cherished because of your capacity to intimately love another another fellow. How should Grant be treated and regarded?

He sounds like a shining boy. I think he should be shown just how cherished he is, Don't you?

So now if you can see the reflection of yourself in him, then you can by chance start to see that you are a shining gay soul also.

Find a way to connect feelings of being cherished through an affirming gay spiritual entity such as MCC or other spiritual teacher. As you do, you will treat those around you better because you are treating yourself better.

This connects you to others through love.

Using relationships for the agenda of making yourself straight is not very attractive or sensitive or loving. It will emotionally harm you and others deeply.

"Hi! I am struggling with my self esteem because I was taught to despise myself for my sexual attraction to men. Will you emotionally attach yourself to me to help me change?"

How attractive could that offer possibly be? Well I guess if she just wants sex and novelty of bedding a gay guy that might be a fun fling. But beyond that I think it would probably suck.

There is a better way.

Number one, the above offer is one best made to a professional psychologist who follows APA guidelines which maintain that sexual orientation is a trait, not an illness. Someone who can help you to stop despising and judging yourself for a trait that is no different than hair color or eye color.

To help you to tolerate your attraction to men, then accept your attraction to men, then embrace your attraction to men. Then you can realize that intimately loving men is what life is all about for you! That this is why God created you with attraction to men! And it hits You! OH! now I GET IT! Gee! Love is Great!

If it were true that all gay fellas and gals had green eyes, and all straight fellas and gals had brown and blue eyes, and all bisexual folks had hazel eyes, then you might be taught as a child the following:

Jason, You are a dashingly handsome green-eyed gayboy. You just have to meet my boy, Grant. I think the two of you might hit it off! I think you two might make each other very happy! I can't wait to see the two of you get married one day!

Then, of course, there would be no second thoughts if you met Grant and fell in love. His family and yours preparing for the big day with building anticipation. The holy blessing of the love you share by your priest.

But that is not what happened is it? You were taught that your capacity to love men was the worst abomination imaginable. Yuck! what a horrible thing to tell a child! And all of the struggle you have now is a result of what is in fact, child abuse.

If you are of mixed potrugese and native south american heritage then a similar lie was told by portugese colonists to the other half of your family. That because they had different physical features that God considered them inferior beasts without souls. The class system of portugese colonies has a history fraught with "God" sanctioned brutality upon the native people.

Homophobia is no different. Learn that being told that "homosexuality is a sin" to a child in development of his sexual awareness is abuse. It is no different than saying to a young black child that he is a "worthless ni**er by his adopted white family.

Makes you mad at them doesn't it? That's a very normal first step in recognizing that you have benn trespassed against. The first step in awareness of what has been done to you. A first step in not despising yourself is feeling anger toward those who did this to you. It can be very frightening. That is why a therapist is best to help guide you through this step and the steps to come.

[FatherAlbert]

Dear Jason,

If you were to do all the "right" things according to the Bible, you would either be imprisoned or already executed for those "right" things. Selling a daughter is a right of fathers in the Bible; having more than one wife is a right of men in the Bible; killing one's neighbor for performing manual labor on the Sabbath is required of the righteous man in the Bible; plucking out one's right eye and chopping off one right hand if either of them has "sinned" is demanded in the Bible. There are literally hundreds if not thousands of more "right" things that one should do or not do according to the Bible.

Do some research on your own. Read some of the experts on the interpretation of the Bible as an inspired, yet historic document written for the people of that day. The earth is not flat, nor was it created in six days, nor were the citizens of Sodom and Gomorrah slain for "homosexuality." Check some of these things out before you condemn yourself or any brother or sister for what is not a choice: their sexual orientation or their gender identification.

Blessings in Christ and Benedict,
Father Albert OSB

[Jasonlopez_too]

SOrry you guys, I don't mean to be a jerk, I just feel like I'm drowning. I'm in a black hole and sinking. I feel like I'm alone, but I don't want anyone around. I have been taking some medicine and seeing a counselor and my pastor, but it doesn't seem to be helping. One of my friends died recently, and my uncle, I wasn't really sad, i knew they were in heaven. I wish i was in heaven, I'm not saying that i'm commiting suicied, just that i feel like there's no reason to hang around here.

I won't bother you anymore.

[Daniel]

Listen carefully....really carefully.....

(I feel like Sher in that movie Moonlighting where she shakes that guy and says)

SNAP OUT OF IT!

1) Get yourself a REAL counselor. Not some fakey one from your conservative church who is going to tell you all the guilt crap you have been through adnauseum on this thread.

2) Get the hell away from that homophobic pastor and that church that is sucking your soul alive. And if you can't do that, know that....

3) You are throwing your life away just as sure as anything.

4) Cut the crap with the victim routine. Old. Done. Be a man and do something instead of the continual whining you bring to this board. You don't sound conflicted. In fact, you aren't conflicted enough! When you get in real pain is when you will start to make some changes in your life. So- are you in pain enough yet? Or are you going to keep doing to same old same old, like the dog that goes in circles before it sits down in the same place again? Because that is what you are doing here: offering the same old tired story about how you can't accept yourself.

I mean really: how asleep are you really? What's it gonna take for you to accept that your have same-sex feelings (that is if you aren't some troll coming here to torment us and yourself?)


SNAP OUT OF IT BROTHER! ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!


YOU LIKE BOYS. GRANT TURNS YOU ON. ADMIT IT. HERE. RIGHT NOW. AND DON'T YOU DARE RATIONALIZE IT AWAY FOR ONE SECOND.

And how do you think Grant feels about how you take him for granted'? Has that entered your mind yet? Are you just using him to get your rocks off? And just how loving is that my friend? If you cared about the guy you wouldn't write about him as you do.

WAKE UP BOYFRIEND AND SMELL THE COFFEE.

(note to all: caps are what's known as 'yelling'.)

[BishopIoan]

You really think there is a gay guy that really needs me? :pray: I never really thought about someone else needing me for something. It feels like my thoughts are not good tho, just lust and sex. how can that be something someone needs. I can't even love myself, so how can i love someone else. I feel like if I was with someone I would just make them worse like me. I don't know, I just get confused about it all and want to hide from everything.

Hi, Jason,

Lust and sex are part of life. Not loving yourself is difficult at times--I have struggled with it a great deal in my life, but I came to know that God/the Universe love me unconditionally. Just concentrate on coming to love yourself and on making yourself the best JasonLopez possible. There is absolutely nothing wrong in being gay.:)

You may PM me if you like. If not it is OK. You are in my thoughts and:pray:

[Jasonlopez_too]

I'm actively working on my problem. Medications (Concerta, Lexapro), counseling with a psychologist. Are there any groups in my area (Modesto, CA) that anybody knows of that are not too far away?

[jewelsangel]

What type of group are you looking for?

[scott snedeker]

I'm actively working on my problem. Medications (Concerta, Lexapro), counseling with a psychologist. Are there any groups in my area (Modesto, CA) that anybody knows of that are not too far away?


Jason,

I'm glad that you are not giving up!!

keep your courage up! keep taking in the message that you deserve to live and experience joy!

You have what it takes to be yourself and thrive. I know this time has been tough for you!

I send love and courge out to you tonight!

[keltic63]

I'm actively working on my problem. Medications (Concerta, Lexapro), counseling with a psychologist. Are there any groups in my area (Modesto, CA) that anybody knows of that are not too far away?

thanks for coming back!

now, can you explain what you mean when you say you're working on your problem? this could be a good thing, or it could be a bad thing. are you working on accepting who you are? good. are you working on trying to be straight in spite of all your feelings of attraction to men? bad.

take a look at this site: http://www.outproud.org/

try this page at their site: http://www.queeramerica.com/brochures.html

and this page: http://www.thetaskforce.org/activist_center/act_locally/california has a list of lgbt community centers and college groups that might be of help.

[u-dog]

Use of Lexapro and Concerta might suggest that "the problem" is related to Depression and/or Attention Deficit disorder.

[Nyshana]

Indeed, I've not heard of Concerta, but Lexapro is used for depression.

To Jason, there are many things I could say about your struggle to find your orientation - but most of them have already been said. Instead, I'll say this.
Don't rely on the meds for everything.

Issues like this are troubles of the heart and mind; and they can frequently get so bad that we can barely even think. Meds give us back some of the clarity, some of the ability to think rationally - but they don't solve the problem. Take advantage of the clarity they grant, and use it to think - about yourself, about God, about what's really right and wrong.
Think about it long enough, and pray about it long enough, and you will find peace of mind - because the truth of the matter is that being gay is not evil. It can take a long time to fathom that out yourself, and that's what you'll have to do, because only then will you honestly believe it - you can't fully believe something just because someone said so, be it me or other people in this thread, or your pastor or church; if you could you would never have posted here. But it's definitely worth thinking about, because in this small corner of the universe alone you'll find 5,151 people who've thought about it and come to that conclusion. :)

And the last thing I'll say, is to ignore your pastor. He doesn't know any more of God's mind than you do, he doesn't have any better a standing in God's Big Book than you do - because At once the curtain in the temple tore in two from top to bottom., and from that moment on nothing separated normal people from God - there are no holier people than you!

I don't know whether you're pulling our collective leg or not, but I don't really care, because I'm not going to take the chance that you really do need help by not giving it to you. God made you, how he made you isn't important. God makes nothing bad; everything bad in ourselves is a result of the world we live in and the people we live with. Sexual - or affectional or whatever you want to call it - orientation is not environmental. It's part of who we are, and always have been.
Much love
Emma

[RaymondCharlesWoollcombe]

A simple way of putting it for me is if you're attracted to men than your attracted to men. U cant really do much about it at the moment. Like wise for women if your attracted to women than your attracted to women.

When your my age 16 alot of people call being gay or bi a phase, but its not if your gay or bi its a life style and thats just how its going to be until the day that you die.
Unless for some reason only know to you, you chose to be gay than that can change because its up to you.

Anyways
Peace and Love
Raymond....:pray:

I'm also sure what i just said has already been said but here it is again. :lol:

[scott snedeker]

Keep your courage up!

You don't have to please or satisfy anyone.

You are a good kid who has been thrust into this crucible of homophobia.

We all went and are still going through it.

It's hard having to choose meeting the majority's expectations (which by doing so you sacrifice your happiness and lie to yourself) and disappointing family to live your life.

Why can't I just live my life and not have to make one of these big sacrifices? No matter what i have to give up something important!

That's the bitch!

But parents age and learn to adapt and soften. Time is on your side not theirs. Something I pointed out to mine

More churches embrace gay gals and fellas. And each new generation has a more evolved sense of everyone's entitlement to happiness.

Old Church ideas and old people die. They get left behind nomatter what we do.

The future is yours. Jason lopez is of number one importance in your world. He is entitled to change it to suit him!

[Jasonlopez_too]

I guess I am still trying to change how I feel or how I think about things. I'm not sure if my feelings are legitimate or caused by circumstances. That's why I don't trust how I feel. One thing I noticed when I was at my psychaitrists office was that I tend to be driven towards men when I have anxiety. We were trying to figure out what was causing me to look at gay pictures at certain times but not have the want other times. Or what causes me to want to "hook-up" with a guy sometimes and be repulsed by the idea at other times. :confused: My Dr. asked why I do that and I couldn't think of why, but then at home one day I noticed my feelings right before I had the urge. I was anxious, nervous about some things that had happened between me and my sister, and about money, and about my brothers kids, and other stuff. I just needed comfort from my anxiety.

I'm not sure if it's just the fantasy that releives my anxiety, or something else. :confused: And why does it make me feel better?

My medicine does help me to think more clearly about things. I can actually focus on things for more than a few minutes, and take it in. And with the Lexapro, it helps me not to think about doing bad things to myself, so I guess that is good. The side effects aren't that bad, I've just been looseing weight and sex drive. Everybody says I'm too skiney, but I'm still in the range that those charts tell you are good weights based on your height.

I'm an INFP if you know what those Meyers Briggs letters mean.

Thank you guys for not abandoning me when I act weird. I don't know how to act normal I guess. :love:

[Zerbie]

I guess I am still trying to change how I feel or how I think about things. I'm not sure if my feelings are legitimate or caused by circumstances. That's why I don't trust how I feel. One thing I noticed when I was at my psychaitrists office was that I tend to be driven towards men when I have anxiety. We were trying to figure out what was causing me to look at gay pictures at certain times but not have the want other times. Or what causes me to want to "hook-up" with a guy sometimes and be repulsed by the idea at other times. :confused: My Dr. asked why I do that and I couldn't think of why, but then at home one day I noticed my feelings right before I had the urge. I was anxious, nervous about some things that had happened between me and my sister, and about money, and about my brothers kids, and other stuff. I just needed comfort from my anxiety.

I'm not sure if it's just the fantasy that releives my anxiety, or something else. :confused: And why does it make me feel better?

My medicine does help me to think more clearly about things. I can actually focus on things for more than a few minutes, and take it in. And with the Lexapro, it helps me not to think about doing bad things to myself, so I guess that is good. The side effects aren't that bad, I've just been looseing weight and sex drive. Everybody says I'm too skiney, but I'm still in the range that those charts tell you are good weights based on your height.

I'm an INFP if you know what those Meyers Briggs letters mean.

Thank you guys for not abandoning me when I act weird. I don't know how to act normal I guess. :love:

Slow breaths. Let yourself be calm. I will look up INFP very soon, I myself am an INFJ, so we're very close in type. I'm not sure what the P means, so will study up.

Whatever you do, do not hurt yourself. You are a human being, and that makes you precious. Never harm a human being. So that includes you. Even if you don't feel it, you ARE valuable, of limitless worth. Just because you exist, and whatever your problems or anxieties, or confusions.

You don't have to have the mysteries of your mind and your sexuality figured out now. Let yourself loosen the death grip you've got on 'figuring it all out.' Loosen the grip. You will understand with time whether you are gay, straight, or bi. Why doesn't matter. But *you* yourself, you matter. So take care of Jason. Got it? 'K. ;)

Note: it is normal for people to engage in sexual activity or fantasy as a means of release from stress and anxiety. When one is stressed, under pressure, or otherwise emotionally distressed, the sexual drive can intensify. That happens sometimes. I wouldn't worry about judging it. Just take good care of yourself, if you do have sex with other people, be safe and take every precaution, for yourself as well as for your partner. That's all. Be healthy and safe, and be responsible to your partner if you have one.

Don't judge your feelings as 'legitimate' or not. What the heck would be a non-legitimate feeling? One that we decide should not be there? Well, whether or not they "should" be there, they are. So just accept that they are, and only then judge whether or not it would be wise to act upon the feeling. Some feelings, like rage, are best NOT acted upon. Sometimes sexual attraction is best not acted upon. Other times, acting upon attraction is the most appropriate thing to do. That is what we use our discerning mind for -- to tell the difference.

It seems to me you have an overwhelming tendency to heap negative judgment on yourself. Whatever mistakes you may have made, you are an important person, you are lovable, and you are loved. Stop judging and battering yourself. Do something you enjoy, instead. I promise it is worth it to learn to treat yourself with respect and kindness, to think positive thoughts. Think of a time when you were brimming full of positive energy, love, peace. Just keep thinking of that time, and consciously work to re-create that same kind of mood quality in yourself. Find what is good and keep looking at that good. It's worth it. And so are you. I promise. :love:

[prairielesbian]

I've been struggling with this issue, I want to be really sure that I'm gay before I follow that path. I feel like it would be giving up if I do :(

How do you know if you are gay?

To put it this way - how do you feel when around men or around women? Listen to your "feelings".

Do you feel "fired up" when around the same sex or "fired up" when around the opposite sex?

I went out with many men (before being honest and true to myself) and no matter how many guys I dated - I didn't feel complete. I did not feel "normal" around them and sex never entered my mind while being with them. I had no attraction! I often found it hard to have conversation with them even.

When I was growing up - I found myself looking at cute girls and ignoring the cute guys. Who do you tend to gaze at?

Perhaps go to a local gay function and see if anything gets "ignited" in you. Trust me, being around other "family" will let you know if you are home or not. :)

[scott snedeker]

I guess I am still trying to change how I feel or how I think about things. I'm not sure if my feelings are legitimate or caused by circumstances.

Jason, your feelings are real. Attraction is innate, a part of you. We cannot be "taught " attraction.

Fear is not innate. Fear is a reaction to a threat and is caused by circumstances.



That's why I don't trust how I feel. One thing I noticed when I was at my psychaitrists office was that I tend to be driven towards men when I have anxiety. We were trying to figure out what was causing me to look at gay pictures at certain times but not have the want other times. Or what causes me to want to "hook-up" with a guy sometimes and be repulsed by the idea at other times. :confused: My Dr. asked why I do that and I couldn't think of why, but then at home one day I noticed my feelings right before I had the urge. I was anxious, nervous about some things that had happened between me and my sister, and about money, and about my brothers kids, and other stuff.



Excellent Jason! You are finding a way to understand why additional stress triggers a desire for relief.

Next question: Relief of what?

What underlying internal struggle becomes un-maintainable when additional stress taps your reserve?




I just needed comfort from my anxiety. I'm not sure if it's just the fantasy that releives my anxiety, or something else. :confused: And why does it make me feel better?

A+ Jason! The best question you have asked yet!!

How about a multiple choice for the right answer?


a) I'm giving myself a respite from constantly beating myself up for having the capacity to enjoy sex with guys.

b) Sex is a beautiful healing natural joy

c) i'm not sacrifcing my joy to satisfy a moral prejudice and therefore not less important than straight people

d) when I allow myself the natural healing joy of sex i am becoming aware of my entitlement to it

e) all of the above and more!

My medicine does help me to think more clearly about things. I can actually focus on things for more than a few minutes, and take it in. And with the Lexapro, it helps me not to think about doing bad things to myself,


Jason, You are winning! Winning against feeling bad about yourself. Winnig against fighting with yourself. Winning against hating yourself.

...........And it feels good because it is good
Thank you guys for not abandoning me when I act weird. I don't know how to act normal I guess. :love:


I won't abandon you, Jason, because I am no different than you. Because you are a beautiful shining boy. You may not see it or believe it, but I do.

I understand that when I felt crummy about myself and that when people said I was good........... it kinda made me feel worse.

I guess it was because I just saw the compliment as another impossible thing that I couldn't live up to.

So don't beat yourself up for how long it takes for you to feel good about yourself. You are right where you are supposed to be. You are on track. Step by step you will understand better and better how to feel good about that boy, Jason Lopez.

[Zerbie]

I understand that when I felt crummy about myself and that when people said I was good........... it kinda made me feel worse.

I guess it was because I just saw the compliment as another impossible thing that I couldn't live up to.


Thank you, Scotty. Good comment. During a time when I suspected there were things wrong with me, when folks said I was a good or whatever, it upset me because I thought they were wrong, weren't seeing things, etc. But, well, they were right. :p:lol:

Jason, even when/if we don't feel like we're worthwhile, we are. Whatever taught you that you are intrinsically bad was LYING to you. You are a shining soul, no matter what your problems are right now. Keep relaxing, keep doing what works to take care of you. Trust that things get much, much, MUCH better than this. All it takes is that you keep going and never give up.

[BruceChris]

Jason, even when/if we don't feel like we're worthwhile, we are.

You got it right, Zerb. God loves us, even when we don't love ourselves.



Namaste', Bruce Chris

[Jasonlopez_too]

I've been looking for a group I can meet with in person to talk about sexuality questions. But I don't want a group that will try to make me come to their side, either by telling me that I'm gay so get over it, or telling me that I can change how I feel like an off and on switch. I just need like a local support group, hopefully at a church, to talk to about this stuff.

Also, does anybody know if lexapro or concerta can make you crazy. I have been taking it for a while, I had a few physical side effects at first, and it still affects my appetite and makes me loose weight, but I've been having weird dreams and weird thoughts. I was thinking yesterday about how long babies are when they are born, and I kept thinking that they were extruded like pasta from the womb. Finally I returned to reality and realized that they aren't. And I was looking for something that was right in front of me and I couldn't see it. And last night I had a dream that my parents were away for the weekend and I had a gay guy come over, I was like entranced by his sexy hairy legs and we were watching a porno on TV, then my mom walks in and I go running to my room pulling up my pants. I was scared to death that she would know what I was doing or think about doing. I haven't been caught doing anything except by my sister once. She read some text messages from my cell phone from I guy I had hooked up with and some were a little nasty. Anyway, I didn't mean to go into all that, I just feel like I'm getting crazy.

My sister says not having dad around when we were growing up can cause masculinity problems, or need for male approval, relationship, etc. or maybe because I had all girl friends, maybe that's me, but if it is then it's something I can change. I can't really talk to my sister, she thinks I don't stop because I don't want to stop, and I really want to not think certain thoughts. (like thinking about naked guys, or doing stuff with them) I think in my mind I'm just searching for perfection, I always look at tons of guys on the internet and save the ones that have something I really like for some reason, but i think it's because I want to look like them or because they look like they have it all together, or that they are strong, like in the world, I don't know how to explain it.

My Dr. said today that my main problem is that I'm in a fog and I don't look ahead I just look in front of me and b4 I know it i'm off on some path with some guy that I didn't mean to take (the path i mean). He said I have to feel good about noticing that I'm starting where I'm at and I can't change the past. I knew that was true.

Anyway, I think if there was a group I could talk to in person it would help me, except that I'm scared to death of talking about my sexuality problems with people in person. But I don't seem to be doing very good on my own.

Sorry for the book, I don't normally talk much.

[tymejumper]

Yes, you will have side effects from Concerta. It is my understanding it is given to persons with ADD or ADHD, that is what it has been marketed for. It is long lasting and used for all day control of ADD symptoms. Is this your diagnosis? If not, I would ask to be taken off of it as its being prescribed for a problem you don't have. Its better known as Ritalin. Very occationaly is it used for any other problem. As Concerta/Ritalin is an upper, you will suffer insomnia, weight loss and loss of appetite and anxiety. It is very addictive also.

Lexapro should be enough, it is an SSRI, it keeps chemicals in your brain that help you deal with anxiety, social and general anxiety disorder, OCD etc. You tend to get weird dreams on it and all SSRIs. Also a side effect of SSRIs is impotence, faliure to orgasm and loss of sexual desire. Howeveer, Lexapro is one of the newer ones and this seems to be less of a side effect than older ones such as Paxil or Prozac.

Why on earth are you on 2 psycotrophics? If you are going to a Psychiatrist and he/she has given these to you, go now and get a 2nd and 3rd opinion from another one. DO NOT STOP your meds though. That can cause problems like seziures, or severe depression, or suicidal thought, just get you to another doctor and get another opinion.

I am not saying this to alarm you, just for you to be careful before you start putting all types of drugs in your body to stop you from being gay, or having feelings for the same sex. It does not work, and speaking from personal experience it causes more issues you have to deal with.

Much Metta

[Zerbie]

Definitely ask the medical questions of your doctor/psychiatrist. Do not listen to strangers on the internet about what drugs to take when. You need a qualified medical counsel. Any time you have concerns about side effects, as you have expressed here, call your doctor. Describe the side effects to your doc and ask the doc what s/he thinks you should do. Sometimes they might change the dosage or something. But you need to talk to them.

RE: groups. If you can find a safe group, one that is confidential and has no agenda, that might be a very good thing for you. Ask around and see what you can find. Are you in school? If you're in school, schools often have support groups for talking about specific issues - colleges often have coming out support groups, or support groups for people questioning their sexuality. It sounds like a good idea to check something out. Worst case scenario, you don't like it, so you don't go back. Keep looking until you find a place you like.

[scott snedeker]

Definitely report to your doc by telephone the effects you are reporting to us. I am a doc. I strongly suspect these to be effects of the concerta.

I believe your psychiatrist does know what he is doing and he will be better able to help you with feedback from the symptoms you are feeling

As far as a group I would ask your psychiarist for recommendations. Maybe an online group would be better right now until you are more comfortable. I don't think that now is a good time to discuss your feelings with your family. Family members often feel entitlement to transgress your personal boundaries, and without realizing it, cause harm.

One thing I you think that you are noticing is that folks who have recently gone through the same struggle that you are going through will be very heavy-handed with strong opinions.

I must confess that I am likely one of those. I think we do it in part as habit to counter the uncertainty we were made to feel by a homophobic society. Please forgive my heavy-handed but well-meaning advice.

I think that you are wise in gradually desensitizing yourself to the fears that have put you in this "fog". From what you have relayed, I have a good feeling about your psychiatrist.

I believe that you are clear on one thing. You are dead set to make it through this, and you are going to do it your own way and no one elses.

And there is no better way for Jason Lopez than his own!

[prairielesbian]

Jason,

I am also a chemically challenged individiual (on an antidepressant) and I do know that antidepressants can have different side effects for different people. Also in time, if you've been on the same medicine for awhile, your body may become immune to it. So the best thing is check with your Dr. and see if there is a different med you can take.

I took zoloft until it no longer worked for me. I was than placed on a different med (do not recall the name of it) but it caused me to "not think" (foggy thoughts) and I found myself driving through red traffic lights - not good!

I've tried cymbalta - did nothing for my moods. Now I'm on prozac and at least I don't feel foggy and miserable. :)

The next best thing Jason, talk to your Dr. Even bring up the fact of who you are. If you have a good Dr. he/she wont care who you are, and they could assist you emotionally, phyically, etc. etc. and in the end...you'll be free. Live your life for you.....

Keep the communications open with the sis, and do know that we are here for you on soulforce.

God Bless you friend,

T <><

[Jasonlopez_too]

I take the Concerta for my ADHD, I was perscribed as it when i was little, but it was fine for a long time without medicine , my dr says it's acting up now cause I can't handle it on top of my other stress. I think that is true, I was getting to where i couldn't concentrate for more than 10 minutes. :o Are there other groups online like this one that talk about all sides of the problem? I know I have the inclination to the gay side but I want to know for sure that it's not just my mind making me a certain way because of things that have happened in my life or because I'm not normal in my mind, like chemically or something. Or what it is that i need to feel fulfilled in a partner. I have never really felt what I want to feel with a guy. I don't know why. So it makes me think I'm not looking for the right thing, but I don't know what it is I should be looking for..... :confused:

[Zerbie]

Maybe you don't need to go looking for "it" right now. Relationships, love, etc., tend to fall on our head when we aren't looking. Imo, that's best. Let life develop on its own.

It seems to me that your focus now could be on making yourself as healthy and happy as you can. On enjoying life, learning things, developing your skills and abilities, exploring new things, taking care of your emotional/mental health - which it sounds like you are doing. Keep doing that. :agree:

When the rest of your ducks are in a row, maybe then you can ask questions about your sexuality. And spend time with people who give you hope about a healthy, positive future, and let you enjoy the present.

[Rick336]

Jason,

There's a National Gay Lesbian Bisexual Transgender Help Center with a toll-free hotline that also offers support for people with questions about homosexuality and coming-out issues.

Their number is 1-888-843-4564

They also have a website. Check it out at www.GLBTNationalHelpCenter.org

But be sure to keep coming back here. This group is very supportive.

Rick

[tymejumper]

I take the Concerta for my ADHD, I was perscribed as it when i was little, but it was fine for a long time without medicine , my dr says it's acting up now cause I can't handle it on top of my other stress.



Oh, that makes sense!:rolleyes: Stress does have a tendancy to make anything worse, including it would seem, your ADHD. Sorry, I guess I get cynical because I work in a clinical setting where I see people on 2 to 4 types of psychotropics at a time. People get all sort of side effects, then the doctor prescribes more drugs for the side effects and well, you get the picture.

I personally always am one to recommend 2nd and 3rd opinions, perhaps because of where I work. I am sure Scott understands where I am coming from here. Knowledge is power.

Thankyou Scott and Zerbie for correcting me graciously. I cetainly only meant to be helpfull. Scott is correct, we all have strong opinions after what we have been through. Please forgive if I have stepped over the line :love:

[Jasonlopez_too]

I'm out of money, do you think it would be really bad to stop taking my concerta, i'm almost out of it. also I ran out of lexapro so i'm taking some prozac that i had, but i'll be out of it soon too. i feel pretty good, maybe I don't need them anymore. :D

I haven't been feeling horny for a long time now, so I think I don't need my medicine to make me stop my addictions.

also, have you guys heard of a book "straight to Jesus" someone recomended it to me, I was wondering if it's any good.

I don't weigh a lot but my blood pressure has been getting real high, i hope it's just stress. cause i eat good stuff.

[Zerbie]

Don't change your medications without asking your doctor! Changing medications around can be dangerous.

Call your doc. If you can't afford to fill your next prescription, explain that to the doc's office and ask what you should do. Sometimes just going suddenly off medication can hurt us. DON"T take any risks. A phone call is free. ASK.

Take care of yourself. :pray:

[u-dog]

Jason,

Explain your situation to your doctor and to you pharmacist and see if there is anything that they can do. If your cashlessness is temporary, Doctors often get free samples of meds. He/she may be able to give you enough to get you through til payday. If your situation is more permanent, some of the drug companies have programs FOR SOME DRUGS to get them to the people who need them. It doesn't hurt to ask. Zerbie is right. All these meds are tricky and if you are going to go off of them you want your doc involved. Also, these drugs arent identical. You shouldn't try to substitute one for another just because you have some left over.

[scott snedeker]

Jason, ABsolutely don't discontinue the meds. They need to be weaned off and right now you are feeling good because of them. A lot more work needs to be done before you are ready to stop them.


Here is a toll free# 1-800 962-5357, the customer service # For McNeil consumer and specialty pharmaceuticals. From there you may be able to qualify for a patient assistance program for free medicine for concerta.

Ask you Dr if he is ok with substituting prozac. It should be ok, they are not much different from each other and you can get generic prozac (fluoxetine) from walmart for $4.00 a presciption

As far as Straight to Jesus A review I read on line seems to indicate that it is a very good book. Rather that just stating the futility of ex-gay treatment, it Examines it in painful detail. Knowledge is power. This feels like a good book for you


"The separation between loving the homosexual and hating homosexual orientation and behavior is as confused as the conservative Christian who simultaneously "loves the sinner, but hates the sin." Annihilating the alleged evil and saving the humanity of the sinner has proven to be a historically futile task."

Permission is given to reproduced this from the website below

http://www.h-net.msu.edu/reviews/showrev.php?id=12117

[u-dog]

It sure is helpful to have an actual Doc around who can say this stuff with authority!

[sawyer]

This question started, like a thousand years ago but when I was asking myself whether I was gay or not, it took me a while to come to the conclusion that God meant for me to be gay it wasn't from circumstances.

How do you know?-- If you go into a room full of young adults, who do you look at first? Do you scan for the cutest guys? Do you even see the girls until you have scanned all the boys?

Yes, there actually are guys hoping you are a gay guy in the room.

[Jasonlopez_too]

:o
I think it comes back to this question for me, we kinda wandered all around but I feel like I'm not that much closer to really knowing that I'm gay. If I ask myself all the questions that you guys come up with: who do I look at first when I enter a room of people, who do I end up staring at, who do I want to touch or even have sex with. I admit I am drawn to males, but does that make me gay; I want to know the root of why I have this attraction, is there a need in my life that wasn't fulfilled like my relationship with my dad or other males, was there a disconnect between my interaction with male friends when I was younger. I know I have some mental problems, I think maybe I have some chemical or physical weirdness in my brain. Lately I have felt like I can't take one more thing in my life. Like pressure that builds up before it explodes. And now my dad has cancer and is going for treatment today. and I feel like I may never get the chance to be normal if he dies before I figure it out. I just feel like i'm in a fog all the time, like forever. and I don't know anything. ahhhhh. I know I'm pretty crazy, I feel lost and falling and tight, and trapped, and scared, and wanting to escape from everything. I just pray that I won't be crazy forever. Probably in heaven people can think clearly, so at least then I won't feel like this.

[Daniel]

:o
I think it comes back to this question for me, we kinda wandered all around but I feel like I'm not that much closer to really knowing that I'm gay. If I ask myself all the questions that you guys come up with: who do I look at first when I enter a room of people, who do I end up staring at, who do I want to touch or even have sex with. I admit I am drawn to males, but does that make me gay; I want to know the root of why I have this attraction, is there a need in my life that wasn't fulfilled like my relationship with my dad or other males, was there a disconnect between my interaction with male friends when I was younger. I know I have some mental problems, I think maybe I have some chemical or physical weirdness in my brain. Lately I have felt like I can't take one more thing in my life. Like pressure that builds up before it explodes. And now my dad has cancer and is going for treatment today. and I feel like I may never get the chance to be normal if he dies before I figure it out. I just feel like i'm in a fog all the time, like forever. and I don't know anything. ahhhhh. I know I'm pretty crazy, I feel lost and falling and tight, and trapped, and scared, and wanting to escape from everything. I just pray that I won't be crazy forever. Probably in heaven people can think clearly, so at least then I won't feel like this.

You can't figure out these issues alone, or on a forum such as this, even though you will find support here.

Please talk to someone who is qualified to help you now.

[Zerbie]

:o
I think it comes back to this question for me, we kinda wandered all around but I feel like I'm not that much closer to really knowing that I'm gay. If I ask myself all the questions that you guys come up with: who do I look at first when I enter a room of people, who do I end up staring at, who do I want to touch or even have sex with. I admit I am drawn to males, but does that make me gay; I want to know the root of why I have this attraction,

Lately I have felt like I can't take one more thing in my life. Like pressure that builds up before it explodes. And now my dad has cancer and is going for treatment today. and I feel like I may never get the chance to be normal if he dies before I figure it out. I just feel like i'm in a fog all the time, like forever. and I don't know anything. ahhhhh. I know I'm pretty crazy, I feel lost and falling and tight, and trapped, and scared, and wanting to escape from everything. I just pray that I won't be crazy forever. Probably in heaven people can think clearly, so at least then I won't feel like this.

Jason,

We're worried for you. It's okay not to know if you're gay, it's okay to feel stressed, feel anxious, feel down in the dumps at times: but this sounds like you are really feeling BAD. Call your doctor.

You wrote not long ago about changing your medications. Did you call your doctor? If you have been changing your meds around, or stopped taking them, ALL these bad, tight, trapped and falling feelings could be a change in your system from changing the meds. But don't ask us! Ask your doctor! He/she can help you - we can't, even though we would like to.

Feeling like we're falling apart is okay. AS LONG AS we don't hurt ourselves or otherwise do things we might regret. The feelings are terrible, but they are bearable. And they WILL change. You will live through these bad feelings. You will feel better at another time. Even though the bad feelings right now are saying that you won't.

Honestly, knowing whether or not you're gay, that's the small stuff. Don't put pressure on yourself to perform for your dad, or to have answers for him. Just BE there for him. That's what matters. That's the big stuff. The big stuff is getting you to feel strong and enjoy life again, and being able to be there for those who love you.

For now, call someone who can help you. Call your doctor. Call a counselor, set up an appointment. Do you have friends nearby who deserve your trust? Or even just some buddies you can get together with, maybe go see a movie, catch a game, something just get out of your head.

Ask yourself, is there something I might enjoy doing right now?

But Jason, whatever you do, when it feels this bad, ALWAYS take care of yourself. Ask for help. Ask from people who are capable of giving it.

Call someone.
Then come back and tell us how you're doing.
Okay? :pray:

[tymejumper]

Please call for help. There are many hotlines that you can be anonamous.
Your therapist will have a hotline or after hour line you can contact him at or you can contact someome at. PLEASE call someone, I am very worried that you might make a bad choice and really hurt yourself. It sounds like a lot is going on in your life, much more than weather you are gay or straight. That right now is the least of your problems, you must get yourself squared away and feeling better before you need to worry about who you love.

PLEASE promise us that you will not hurt yourself or do anything stupid. PLEASE promise us you will call someone you can trust, or at least a hotline, look in the phone book.

Much Metta

[prairielesbian]

Jason, first and foremost you are a very normal being going through very normal thoughts and feelings. You are not odd, you are not crazy, you're not a reject, people around you really love you, you have a great future ahead of you (love and all!) so take the time to listen to us all - we have great advice here.

When I was growing up, I knew for a long time that I was different. I hid behind any excuse I could find that I could not go out on a date with someone of the opposite sex. I knew that I was attracted to the same sex - I desired the same sex, I wanted to know what it felt like to touch someone in an intimate fashion of the same sex and yet, living in a small town and in a conservative State - I had to somehow deny who I was even. I lived in a false world up until the Fall of 2006 when I came out to my sister (now abandoned me) and also my parents. What count's is that my parents don't care and they still care and love me - for me. My sister will have to come back on her own terms - hopefully not too late!

Even with all these years of struggle (we all seem to go through this same struggle in some fashion) I'm still growing in who I am. Never before did I pick up GLBT books and read and study as I have in the last 8 months.

I have used the idea of becoming a medical doctor since 3rd grade that I could not date guys - because my time would be focused on schooling. (I don't have time for relationships!!!) Well, here I am - 33 yrs. old, open to a few people that I'm a lesbian in a relationship, and no... I'm not a Doctor. That part of my "life" seemed to have robbed me of my career choices - I hid behind "big" careers to avoid the fact of who I am. Wish I could have dated females early on - imagine where I would be today. ????

But as I keep reading and hearing confessions of others of what they went through Jason - I can't help but think - "WE" are normal and deserving of our rights and most of all happiness in who we are. I've come along ways in the last 2 years, almost to that point that I want to find work (a career) in a place as Soulforce, and other GLBT outlets.

Dear Jason, please seek whatever advice you need in a safe manner - even if it's just one person off of Soulforce here. We are here for you - and your struggle is our struggle!

[Jasonlopez_too]

Hi everybody,

I just wanted to say thinks for the support. I'm doing alot better now. I guess it was my brain chemistry that's alwyas been out of wack. My doctor upped me to 4 prozack and 4 concerta, but then my thyroid got all messed up and my blood pressure so they gave me medicine for those too. Anyway, I feel happy most of the time, people say I'm too happy hehe and I can think better at work and at school, like focusing wise. I don't even think about sex anymore or good looking people. I don't feel like I'm gay anymore, but I don't feel like it would be a bad thing if I was now, I just don't feel the same feelings I used too. I just feel more calm about things and less stressfull. Even though there's like tons of bad stuff happening in my family right now even, with everybody dying from cancer and stuff, my dad and my uncle and like 3 of my friends. But my sister is pregnant so thats good, i mean like exciting. Being an uncle makes me feel more manly :D I'm so not gay now that I don't even jack off, except when it hurts from the pressure buildup and i'm in the shower or something. But I don't thick of sexy guys or anything. I lost a bunch of weight for some reason but I gained back 10 pounds over Christmas, mostly muscle, so that means I'm pretty healthy. And I don't even want to look at gay porn anymore, so I save a lot of money, hehe.

Anyway, everythings good.

:D

Jason