Nazi & other non-Christian Homophobia

[antiochian]

In the Scientology thread I brought this up. And deemed the subject appropriately needed its own thread. Why were the Nazis against gays? I suppose it had something to do with the "perfect race" needing to reproduce itself or some foolishness?

And the communists, who weren't even religious, what was their beef with lgbt folks? Was it simply that homophobia was already deeply entrenched in the culture? Non-religious homophobia, though not often heard of, is interesting.

And I remember reading that one of the founders of the various satanic churches was homophobic as well, causing a gay satanist to found the Temple of Set, if I remember right. Not sure if it was LaVey or someone else. Strange.

[Zerbie]

In the Scientology thread I brought this up. And deemed the subject appropriately needed its own thread. Why were the Nazis against gays? I suppose it had something to do with the "perfect race" needing to reproduce itself or some foolishness?



Lesbians were allowed to live on the grounds that they could be forced to just lie there. But gay men failed to live up to their duty to Mother Germany.

At least, that is how I learned it. Can anyone confirm or refute?

[Rick336]

Non-religious homophobia, though not often heard of, is interesting.

When I was in high school in the sixties, a boy who wasn't a student at the school, dropped by to help some of his buddies set up band equipment for a school talent show. He was a normal guy around 17 or 18, except for one thing. He had long hair that was down to his shoulders.

As soon as some of the football team saw this guy, they immediately began to laugh and taunt him. Eventually other students joined in including a few of the girls. It became so bad that the boy was forced to leave the building. Before he got to his car in the parking lot, he was slugged in the face by one of the football players.

This had nothing to do with religion.

Rick

[antiochian]

Rick, no, had those folks' intolerance been religion-based, they may have been on the losing side biblically (Samson's hair was his strength). I suppose that had more to do with the fact that somebody dared to be different--a mortal sin in the teenie bopper years. Kinda like the guy who doesn't like sports, or the guy who wants to be an interior decorator, not typical "manly" aspirations/interests. Considering how many dudes wear their hair long now... Heck, wasn't Willie Nelson sporting his braids back then? Of course, it's fairly common for guys to get ear/body piercings these days, but I've received negative feedback on mine a number of times. It's more about culture and gender norms and the comfort people have at seeing them crossed.

Also, I spoke of communists above in the past tense as I had the former Soviet Union in mind. Obviously, China and other places are still communist, so I should have spoken in present tense. This is becoming an interesting discussion thus far.

[Rick336]

Heck, wasn't Willie Nelson sporting his braids back then?

I think this was before Willie let his hair down.

In the Sixties, especially in the South where I went to high school, if a boy had shoulder length hair it was assumed that he either wanted to look like a girl, or worse, a "hippie" like those "anti-war, long-haired, drug addicted, commie fags" that lived in San Francisco.

In 1966, female rock singer Jody Miller addressed this issue in her hit song titled "Home of the Brave."



Home Of The Brave
Jody Miller 1966


The school board says "he can't come to school, no more"
unless he wears his hair like he wore it before.
The PTA and all the mothers,
say he ought to look like the others.

Home of the brave, land of the free
why won't you let him be what he wants to be

The kids all laugh at his hair and funny clothes.
And more than once he's gone home with a bloody nose
he's not like them and they can't ignore it.
So they all hate him for it.

Home of the brave, land of the free
why won't you let him be what he wants to be

It really burns me up, when they put him down
He's the only one saying something in this whole town
Instead of all the trouble they hand him,
why don't they try to understand him.

Home of the brave, land of the free
why won't you let him be what he wants to be
he never hurt nobody,
why won't you let him be what he wants to be
he's just a little bit different.
why won't you let him be what he wants to be
You got to understand him.
why won't you let him be what he wants to be



Rick

[tdogg]

In the Scientology thread I brought this up. And deemed the subject appropriately needed its own thread. Why were the Nazis against gays? I suppose it had something to do with the "perfect race" needing to reproduce itself or some foolishness?

And the communists, who weren't even religious, what was their beef with lgbt folks? Was it simply that homophobia was already deeply entrenched in the culture? Non-religious homophobia, though not often heard of, is interesting.

And I remember reading that one of the founders of the various satanic churches was homophobic as well, causing a gay satanist to found the Temple of Set, if I remember right. Not sure if it was LaVey or someone else. Strange.

Thought I had read somewhere that the Nazi's did actually consider themselves religious, and that they felt creating the 'perfect race' was God's will? Maybe I got it wrong?

[dsdrane]

Lesbians were allowed to live on the grounds that they could be forced to just lie there. But gay men failed to live up to their duty to Mother Germany.

At least, that is how I learned it. Can anyone confirm or refute?

Actually, it is my understanding that neither the Nazi nor prior or subsequent governments prosecuted women under Paragraph 175 of the German Criminal Code basically because only interaction between men was explicitly mentioned. Pre- and post-Nazi governments no doubt considered this provision of the code strictly in "moral" terms; but, with the Nazis, it had very specific 1,000-year-Reich-building ramifications. Homosexuals were, as Heinrich Himmler inaccurately called them, "propagation blanks". Their crime was two-fold: one, they were not doing the civic duty to build the Aryan race; and, two, their homosexuality, being contagious, threatened to spread.

[Zerbie]

Actually, it is my understanding that neither the Nazi nor prior or subsequent governments prosecuted women under Paragraph 175 of the German Criminal Code basically because only interaction between men was explicitly mentioned.

Yes, that is what I also heard. The explanation you quoted me on above was given as the reasoning behind 175.


Pre- and post-Nazi governments no doubt considered this provision of the code strictly in "moral" terms; but, with the Nazis, it had very specific 1,000-year-Reich-building ramifications. Homosexuals were, as Heinrich Himmler inaccurately called them, "propagation blanks". Their crime was two-fold: one, they were not doing the civic duty to build the Aryan race; and, two, their homosexuality, being contagious, threatened to spread.

Ohh. . . the 'contagious' part is news to me. Though it shouldn't be. This is what we hear still from some of our adversaries.

[Steven E. Webster]

Friends,

I think we make a mistake if we attribute homophobia solely to religion in general or Christianity in particular.

I think that homophobia is CULTURAL, and then folks dig up religious justifications for their bigotry. I think that is one of the points the scholar John Boswell was trying to make with his book "Christianity, Homosexuality and Social Tolerance." Boswell's argument was that Christians were actually quite tolerant of gays until about the 12th Century in Europe. It was at that time that there was also a rise in bigotry against Jews, women (e.g. "witch" burnings), "heretics" and the poor.

I think Nazi's often claimed to be Christian, and they subverted Christian Churches to support the Nazi movement and state. They also romanticized pre-Christian German paganism. Their interpretation of German paganism (as I recall) was very homophobic (whether that was really true of historic German paganism or not, I don't know).

Steven Webster

[Zerbie]

Friends,

I think we make a mistake if we attribute homophobia solely to religion in general or Christianity in particular.

I think that homophobia is CULTURAL, and then folks dig up religious justifications for their bigotry.
Steven Webster

Oh, totally. I absolutely believe that. One sees it all the time (or at least, I see it all the time.)

[antiochian]

I'm not sure I agree that the early Church tolerated lgbt's. The Church Fathers, in their writings, are quite condemning of male homosexuality especially.

[Unmasked]

I find it interesting that females don't have any rules like that. As long as nothing as inside of them it's all good I guess (biblically speaking ;) ).

Anti-Homosexual laws were in place well before Hitler, and the American troops left gays and lesbians to rot. Before Hitler rose to power, Germany had mandatory religious education for the youth. Hitler based all of his politics on the writings of Luther and twisted interpretations of Christian scripture. Fear and hatred of anybody different has been a value of the church for quite some time.

It is my personal opinion that the only healthy church, with true believers, is the persecuted one. I think there are a few in the mainline churches and the conservative ones, but Christianity tends to do best when people are being oppressed. When the Church is allowed dominance, or even passive acceptance, it turns bad. We forget what it is like to be a stranger in the land, and we treat people who've suffered enough with malice and contempt.

I think it will be better for Sodom in the judgement. How sad, that we couldn't muster up enough compassion to be exalted above that which the Lord hath destroyed for its wickedness and cruelty.