Speaking Out or Double Think?

[daddyDA]

I recently went on my own Churches Website & viewed a PDF document by our leader that outlined the position on 'homosexuality.'
In essence it accepts that being Gay is an orientation but states that, by prayer & supplication gay men & women should devote themselves to lives of celibacy.

There's no vile homophobia, no thearts of hell fire & damnation. If anything I would say the document encourages 'compassion' but adopts pretty much the position, 'love the sinner but not the sin.'

If you've read my other post here, you'll know I don't agree with this position.
You'll know I hold that my Lesbian, Gay & Transgender bothers & sisters in Christ must be accepted fully who who you all are.
As this is your orientation, God made you this way & you are quite right to celebrate & enjoy your sexuality.

I was talking with my Wife about this as we drove in to work this morning. She knows it really tears me up when I listen to the same old biblical texts being used against GLBT in however pleasent a context.
She knows I am ardently against oppression & always there to support the causes of liberty & light.

Whilst several close friends in the Chuch share my views, whilst we know that other gay people worship with us week after week, we sit there & refuse to challenge the status Quo of the leadership.
Indeed, should it even be us making an issue of this on behalf o
of our Gay brothers & sisters in Christ?

If we made an issue of this, the leadership would nod a few heads, listen with compassion & then refer us to the same texts. They claim they have the support of theological heavy weights like Karl Barth (who can go one better than Church Dogmatics, that was this guy's life work.) They'd say WE are leading people astray & doubtless marginalise us or at least drown our three or so voices in a welter of well meaning evangelical zeal.

Yet, when others have stayed silent you people have paid the price. Your sons & daughters have been denied the opportunity to grow into the human beings their creator destined them to be. (Once again Mel Whites book comes to mind. I have annotatedit & have a copy ready to give to one of our leaders...May God give me the courage to give her this book & the give her the even greater courage to speak out from her position in ministry.)

Otherwise, George Orwell was sadly right.

"Double think. The ability to hold two contradictory ideas in the mind at the same time..."

Only I DON'T 'believe both.'

Please pray for me because this is going to be really, really tough.

[Matt Algren]

There's no vile homophobia, no thearts of hell fire & damnation. If anything I would say the document encourages 'compassion' but adopts pretty much the position, 'love the sinner but not the sin.'
In a former life when I ran a gas station, I had an employee who had JWs talking to her at the store and they'd leave their pamphlets. I always took a look at them, and early on they were pretty standard Christian ideas and verbiage. It wasn't until months later that they gave her some of the deeper stuff that references things like the 144,000 and October 1914. Then came the separation of Jesus from the Trinity...

My point is that the early stuff was a wolf in sheep's clothing. Your situation is much the same way. I guess one of the questions I'd be asking is whether there are any single voluntarily celibate homosexuals (not just losers like me :) ) who are active members of the church. If not, why aren't there any? Have they ever had the situation come up?

It's a weird halfway proposal. You can be gay, but no 'acting out', as if carving that part out of the human psyche were healthy or reasonable.

[Zerbie]

You would be correct to speak out. It is precisely you who can.

Your post reminds me of a conversation I was told about that occurred amongst a group of christian leaders in my metro area. They were all supportive of equality and wondered why no christian leaders were speaking out supportively. Then, as one of the pastors told me, "I suddenly realized, no one was speaking out because It Was Supposed To Be Us!" They then formed a coalition that has done much service in our area.

Who knows if there are gays or lesbians right in your church who feel set apart from their fellows, who feel hesitant, ashamed, or afraid to say anything when this position is spoken? Who knows how many? Who knows who in there may have a gay family members or close friend who they value, but who feels too afraid to speak up because they are afraid of being the only one?

Three is a very good number. I'd hazard a guess that after the 3 of you speak out, at least one other person in that congregation will come up and tell you how grateful they are. And still another will be silently grateful and too afraid to tell you how much your words meant to them. They may never tell you, but they will always remember it.

I say, absolutely be the one to speak. Your words can give comfort to many.

[Emproph]

I recently went on my own Churches Website & viewed a PDF document by our leader that outlined the position on 'homosexuality.'

In essence it accepts that being Gay is an orientation but states that, by prayer & supplication gay men & women should devote themselves to lives of celibacy.

There's no vile homophobia, no thearts of hell fire & damnation. If anything I would say the document encourages 'compassion' but adopts pretty much the position, 'love the sinner but not the sin.'

[...]

Please pray for me because this is going to be really, really tough.

Though it’s a much more honest position, it’s still a supremely unfair expectation to expect someone to suppress their own human-sexuality, and most importantly, desire for love and intimacy, for a lifetime.

Perhaps it doesn’t have to be as hard as you think, if you were to try a different approach - one you may possibly feel more secure with.

In all my dealings with anti-gays online over the past few years, the one thing they can never answer is precisely how same gender relationships are “morally wrong,” and/or how our love can be evil. In fact, when pressed, they often admit that if the Bible didn’t condemn it, they’d have nothing else to stand on.

So it seems to me that the question isn’t so much about homosexuality (if at all), but about the definition of morality and sin.

Is sin based on the harm of others, or is it arbitrary and “just because the Bible says so?”
--
Does your church also require life long celibacy of those who’ve divorced outside of the only two Biblically acceptable forms of it - having been cheated on, or if your spouse is an unbeliever?

If not, then why give a pass to the adultery of remarriage but not gays?
--
In your attempt to make your concerns known, perhaps just present them with questions like this to answer.

Ask until you are satisfied. And that may take time.
--
The “hard” part for me, and I’ve seen this happen time and time again, with myself and others, is that no matter how brilliant we are, and no matter how many reasons, facts and examples we offer, and no matter how many personally impassioned pleas - it is never ending.

And I don’t necessarily mean “never-ending” as far as the overall challenge goes, I mean it more in the sense of your-own desire to press things, now.

Timing and confidence of subject matter can be everything. I’d say pray on that.

And by timing, I mean confidence. And by confidence I mean, be able to articulate for yourself, in your own mind, very simply WHY, and HOW, you have come to know that you are certain that you are right about this.

The more you articulate it in your own mind, the more you’ll feel confident in articulating it to others. (You may want to practice with your wife first though, sometimes things don’t always come out right the first time… ;))

I think what I’m describing is the challenge of being attuned to the spirit - internally and externally. It takes “in the moment” mentality, which I’m not always good at.
--
I’m sorry, daddyDA, I’m pontificating and I feel like I’m patronizing you, but I wanted to respond because I really appreciate what you proffer. It’s not even your battle, but you see it, and appreciate it for what it is. And I see your fear too - because it’s not your battle, who are you to feel confident in fighting it? Who are you to say this is your battle?
--
Otherwise, George Orwell was sadly right.

"Double think. The ability to hold two contradictory ideas in the mind at the same time..."

An untenable situation. Consciousness is not static. Life itself is a constant and continual exercise in the negotiation of contradiction. It’s the entire purpose of why we’re here, to learn how to do this as effectively as possible for the maximization of Good -- so that when we rejoin “heaven,” we will know the true meaning of it - namely, to know how to create infinitely more of it.

There’s something missing to that George Orwell quote. Once contradictory “double think” is exposed for the unnatural state that it is, it can no longer be seen as sustainable. And that’s where your questions come into play. Is sin based on harming others, or is it arbitrary? If gays can only love other gays, then how can that be evil?
--
So that’s my semi-practical, half esoteric, 2cents worth for now…

PS, I think the way Zerbie put it is much more, at least in a practical sense, confidence / certitude building than the way I'm trying to put it.

[scott snedeker]

I recently went on my own Churches Website & viewed a PDF document by our leader that outlined the position on 'homosexuality.'
In essence it accepts that being Gay is an orientation but states that, by prayer & supplication gay men & women should devote themselves to lives of celibacy.

There's no vile homophobia, no thearts of hell fire & damnation. If anything I would say the document encourages 'compassion' but adopts pretty much the position, 'love the sinner but not the sin.'

If you've read my other post here, you'll know I don't agree with this position.
You'll know I hold that my Lesbian, Gay & Transgender bothers & sisters in Christ must be accepted fully who who you all are.
As this is your orientation, God made you this way & you are quite right to celebrate & enjoy your sexuality.

I was talking with my Wife about this as we drove in to work this morning. She knows it really tears me up when I listen to the same old biblical texts being used against GLBT in however pleasent a context.
She knows I am ardently against oppression & always there to support the causes of liberty & light.

Whilst several close friends in the Chuch share my views, whilst we know that other gay people worship with us week after week, we sit there & refuse to challenge the status Quo of the leadership.
Indeed, should it even be us making an issue of this on behalf o
of our Gay brothers & sisters in Christ?

If we made an issue of this, the leadership would nod a few heads, listen with compassion & then refer us to the same texts. They claim they have the support of theological heavy weights like Karl Barth (who can go one better than Church Dogmatics, that was this guy's life work.) They'd say WE are leading people astray & doubtless marginalise us or at least drown our three or so voices in a welter of well meaning evangelical zeal.

Yet, when others have stayed silent you people have paid the price. Your sons & daughters have been denied the opportunity to grow into the human beings their creator destined them to be. (Once again Mel Whites book comes to mind. I have annotatedit & have a copy ready to give to one of our leaders...May God give me the courage to give her this book & the give her the even greater courage to speak out from her position in ministry.)

Otherwise, George Orwell was sadly right.

"Double think. The ability to hold two contradictory ideas in the mind at the same time..."

Only I DON'T 'believe both.'

Please pray for me because this is going to be really, really tough.

....But not as tough as you are!!!!

"We will match your capacity to inflict suffering with our capacity to endure suffering........but in all good conscience we cannot obey your unjust laws..."

--MLK

Celibacy for the Gay humans, second class and less entitled by God's design. ---2008

Inferior separate services for negros, inferior humans and less entitled by God's design ---1968

Is this so difficult to recognize?