How does one begin to include everyone?

[FatherAlbert]

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

Thanks so much for the reply and the interest on the part of one of our thoughtful members. I hope that my thoughts will add to our dialogue concerning what it means to be "catholic" in my sphere of reference. I think we (or some members) have a different interpretation of what "inclusion" or "inclusivity" means. For me (and I am not representing the entire United Catholic Church fellowship), inclusion means that all brothers and sisters are represented in the fellowship or community of faith. I have attended services of the other UCC (the United Church of Christ) and am familiar with their mission and their polity. I admire them greatly and am part of their social action network here in Southwest Florida where we are stamping out slavery and indentured servitude little by little. I have also attended a service of the Metropolitan Community Church here in Naples whose mission is one of diversity and inclusion. The practice of the United Church of Christ from my extensive research and contact does appear to confirm their "open and affirming" declaration. However, I didn't see or hear "open and affirming" at MCC in Naples. I felt I was not "included." When I have more time, I'll explain in detail why I felt segregated.

I firmly believe that inclusion must come by welcoming with open arms all who come to celebrate as a fellowship or community. In an ideal world, 10-20% of the membership would be GLBT; 10-20% would be persons of color; 50-70% would be heterosexuals of any race or ethnicity. I guess you get the idea of my vision of inclusion. One's sexuality and/or gender identification are not to be celebrated; no, they are to be affirmed and embraced and become part of the mainstream of the culture. Once we begin to divide into subcultures, we find ourselves more and more isolated, one from the other. An example of a subculture is the deaf subculture; by isolating themselves deaf people are not participating fully in the culture or society in which they live. Helen Keller is a wonderful example of how a person can not only participate but contribute and enrich the entire society.

I am looking for ways to integrate all my brothers and sisters who want to follow the Christ into one loving, accepting community which makes the difficult choices the Christ followers must make. Speak out against war; fight for freedom of all citizens and all residents (legal and illegal) of the country.

This is just a beginning. I've spent many of my 66 years observing, studying, working to learn to love all my brothers and sisters whoever they are and wherever they are.

Love and blessings in Christ and Benedict,
Father Albert OSB

[Matt Algren]

However, I didn't see or hear "open and affirming" at MCC in Naples. I felt I was not "included."I'm not qualified to address the rest, and probably not qualified to address this, but I'm gonna try anyway.

I have a feeling that what you felt at that MCC is similar to what a white man would have felt at an African Methodist Episcopal Church in the 1950s. Both churches were created to carve out a safe place for an oppressed minority to practice their Christianity.

In a perfect world, there wouldn't be a need to create an MCC or AME, but this isn't a perfect world. It's a world where African Americans weren't welcome in most Christian churches then, and where LGTBs aren't welcome in most Christian churches now. I wish it were different, but this is the best we can do under the circumstances.

As civil rights for African Americans have become more and more a part of the culture, a lot of the original reason for the existence of the AME has gone away too. But what's left behind is the heritage and tradition that is specific to the AME, and that needs to be honored.

Likewise, someday civil rights for LGTBs will become more acknowledged and practiced and ingrained, and a lot of the original reason for the MCC's literal sanctuary will have fallen away. But there will also be a heritage and tradition that those outside the minority group will need to understand must be honored.

So I guess what I'm saying is that yeah, we should work for full inclusion in mainstream churches (I've never been to an MCC, but I'm trying to help the UMC get on the stick.) but at the same time we need to acknowledge that having a safe haven has been and will continue to be an important part of the movement. And one of the side effects is that straight folks might not feel full inclusion, because the structure, ministries, and liturgical focus of the MCC were built for someone else.

[kara speltz]

I'm not qualified to address the rest, and probably not qualified to address this, but I'm gonna try anyway.

I have a feeling that what you felt at that MCC is similar to what a white man would have felt at an African Methodist Episcopal Church in the 1950s. Both churches were created to carve out a safe place for an oppressed minority to practice their Christianity.

In a perfect world, there wouldn't be a need to create an MCC or AME, but this isn't a perfect world. It's a world where African Americans weren't welcome in most Christian churches then, and where LGTBs aren't welcome in most Christian churches now. I wish it were different, but this is the best we can do under the circumstances.

As civil rights for African Americans have become more and more a part of the culture, a lot of the original reason for the existence of the AME has gone away too. But what's left behind is the heritage and tradition that is specific to the AME, and that needs to be honored.

Likewise, someday civil rights for LGTBs will become more acknowledged and practiced and ingrained, and a lot of the original reason for the MCC's literal sanctuary will have fallen away. But there will also be a heritage and tradition that those outside the minority group will need to understand must be honored.

So I guess what I'm saying is that yeah, we should work for full inclusion in mainstream churches (I've never been to an MCC, but I'm trying to help the UMC get on the stick.) but at the same time we need to acknowledge that having a safe haven has been and will continue to be an important part of the movement. And one of the side effects is that straight folks might not feel full inclusion, because the structure, ministries, and liturgical focus of the MCC were built for someone else.

Dear Matt: I agree with you. Truth be told there are still lots and lots of white churches where Afro-Americans are not welcomed. It has been said that Sunday morning is the most segregated time in our country. Some would like to suggest that racism does not still institutionally exist in this country and thus they would all like to pretend we're color blind.

Here in California we had a black guy who worked hard to overturn affirmative action. At the moment I can't recall his name, but the damage he has done is mighty.

It also reminds me of the issue of privelege that we so reluctantly acknowledge and resist. As white people, we live with an expectation that we will be welcomed anywhere. Similarly heterosexual people (especially white heterosexuals) walk around with an expectation of being fully welcomed everywhere.

As you said, in a perfect world, that would be the dream. But we live in a world where people of color and people of differing gender identities are not welcomed, and that is the way that racism and heterosexism hurt ALL PEOPLE, not just those discriminated against.

Kara

[FatherAlbert]

My dear brother and sister,

Thank you for taking the time to reflect and respond. I didn't fully explain my experience at MCC Naples. Firstly, I did not announce that I was heterosexual and I was dressed in my clericals (collar and black suit). The preacher was excellent and spoke about giving, emphasizing that spreading the news of their small congregation was one of the ways of giving. And he spoke about welcoming all and their mission to be an inclusive community.

When you limit your appeal solely to the GLBT population, you are working against growing a faith community. I would like you to reflect on the real difference between color and sexual orientation. I don't provide answers; I just ask questions.

My experiences have been very positive: attending for four summers an Episcopal Church in Salem, MA where the rector was a gay man and the congregation was a real mixture of all kinds: black, white, gay, straight, old, young, families, singles. We all gathered together for worship and for social activities. I also know several friends who are long-standing members of the United Church of Christ congregation in Salem where both gay and straight worshippers celebrate their differences with great joy and are truly "open and affirming" in all respects. Their gay and lesbian members are wonderful contributing members of their church in every way.

I chose the United Catholic Church because of the vision and mission of the founder and Primate of this post-denominational fellowship. We have women priests and bishops (our presiding bishop is a woman and a wonderful shepherd), we have gay and lesbian clergy, we have black, white, and native American clergy (I'm the native American; actually, mixed: white and native American.) All of our clergy are working people or retired from their careers; most of us who are still working are hospice chaplains or military chaplains in Veterans' hospitals; while still others are performing jobs in other areas of social work. We aren't church builders per se; we serve those who have been abandoned by their former churches or have been excommunicated; or who feel uncomfortable in churches that discriminate overtly or covertly against them for whatever reason. We do not accept pedophiles at any level of ministry. If that makes us biased, then so be it.

I am hoping that more and more people will respond and reflect on what separating brothers and sisters for worship will accomplish, especially for those who say that they are following the Christ. He is the yardstick against which we measure ourselves. The rest of the nonsense must be left long in the past. As my mentor, Joan Chittester, a Roman Catholic Benedictine and Christian mystic says: "Nothing we do can change the past; everything we do can change the future."

Please try to be open and to think outside the box! Followers of Christ are real people living in the 21st century. Most of what we have learned from our different denominations and fellowships must be left behind. There is no room or biblical reason for guilt about who we are. God made us; and what He saw he said was "good." My dream is that we can all worship together and celebrate our differences before God and our neighbors. I pray and work toward that dream becoming a reality every day, both as a priest and a Benedictine monk who lives in the world, not behind monastery walls.

Blessings in Christ and Benedict,
Father Albert OSB

P.S. I have been married to my first and only love for 36 years. Throughout the years we have made friends of all who have cared to accept our friendship. We have differences in both of our families: GLBT relatives, black and Asian, Jewish and Buddhist, and pagan feminist, and I guess whatever other differences there might be are among our own family members. In my life I have experienced the love we all have for one another and yet we can embrace and celebrate our differences. How good God is!

[BruceChris]

It's true, on Sunday morning most people do head for their comfort zone, and their peer group. As some of you have shown, you can sometimes reach out to others not like yourself, and build a congregation.

In my predominantly gay church, we keep getting more straight people insisting that they want to come too, as well as pastors from various other churches, and over the past few months we have gotten several African American members. So maybe it is mostly a matter of having an accepting and positive attitude.

Yet somehow there is often something about more conservative churches that often gets in the way.

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[FatherAlbert]

Dear Bruce Chris,

Stay away from those churches which do not state up front their vision and their mission statement. A faith community should reflect as closely as possible the community-at-large. That is my opinion. That is the environment in which I am happiest. But that is also who I am! I love difference, openness, authenticity, true diversity and inclusivity. That's my idea of church. Unity among follower of Christ is my vision. My mission is to make that a reality however I can. I have the age, the knowledge, and the faith to remain steadfast to my vision and mission until the end. Having enjoyed ill health for many years and undergone lots of surgeries, I work hard every day to do what the Holy Spirit directs me to do. Every day is a beginning; we are born anew when we wake up each morning. How wonderful! That is the reason I say to myself all the time: How good God is!

I try to remain non-judgmental with all things in my life. I fail many times each day. Although I know that only God can judge, I do find myself making judgments every day. Sometimes it is being impatient with the person in front of me at the gas pump because they aren't moving fast enough for me; sometimes it is in the supermarket or other store when the cashier's English isn't as good as I would like; sometimes I judge people on television because they aren't thinking the way I want them to. Thanks to God for His constant presence with me to remind me to refrain from any form of judgment. Like all humans, I fall time and time again, only to get up and keep on trying. I try to picture Jesus on His way to His crucifixion, falling three times and then being nailed to that cross on which He died in disgrace. Remember His saying, "Abba, Father , forgive them for they know not what they are doing!"

To follow the Christ is to choose the narrow path. That sometimes means making the choice to chase after rainbows, to be a Don Quijote and never lose you sight of the ideal. It's a good thing to dream the impossible dream. That's the way that dreams come true.

Love and blessings in Christ and Benedict,
Father Albert OSB

[Alecto]

Ok, so, I don't go to church, and maybe this is one of those things I should stay out of. But I think that I myself kind of prove my point: I think it's entirely possible that GLBT folks might have different spiritual needs than our heteronormative peers. And that certainly doesn't mean other folks aren't welcome, but if they have different needs than we do, they might not find their own met. I think it would be GREAT if there was enough time, and enough people, enough brainpower and enough emotional energy to serve EVERYONE. But realistically, don't most religious orders tend to specialize in a certain ministry? It's like trying to fix everything in the world: it's a good way to burn out real quick. Like I said, I don't attend the MCC churches or anything, but I don't see anything wrong with something that's aimed at US, in terms that we don't have to translate.

[Daniel]

This is an interesting discussion, one which I do not feel myself fully qualified to participate in: like Alecto, I am not currently attending a church. That said, I did serve as a professional choirmember for about 15 years here in NYC- most of that time spent at one particular parish. You might say I am retired from that endeavor. And being something of a Buddhist, do not feel a particular need to worship at the moment. Thoughm if asked to choose, I would join an Episcopal church. I guess you might say I am on hiatus.

What does all this have to do with the matter of inclusion? Good question. I think that we live in a world in which striving for inclusion is an every present need. That said, there is also seems to be a need for exclusivity: that's what seems to help even the most ardent fundamentalist feel safe and secure. And while this may sounds radical, I think that even the conservative fundamentalist who eshews inclusion needs his/her 'space', as odd as that may sound.

As such, I think this is part and parcel of a non-violent view of the issue you have brought to the table: giving to others- even those that exclude others- the very inclusion that they seek.

[wmanion]

If God is truly not a respecter of persons and his love encompasses all of us, regardless of our sexuality or skin color, should not we put this aside when we worship? We are all different and each of us have our own gifts and talents to bring to the table and I believe we should strive to bring all walks of life together. Can the foot say to the toe that I have no need of thee?
I have not been to church is a long time. One reason is that I cannot find a church that is affirming in my area that I can go to, however, I believe we all have basically the same spiritual needs. I do not think in this day and age we can afford to be exclusive. As I have learned God's love is inclusive of everyone and I think we do each other a disservice, if we chose to be exclusive. I am not saying you have to give up your individualism, but we need to reach out to one another. I hope this made sense and I am getting the discussion correctly.

Love,
Bill

[FatherAlbert]

Dear Bill,

You are truly blessed! You have found and embraced the message. I am saddened that you haven't found a faith community to share the message and to support and affirm you. And more, to celebrate the beauty in all of creation: we share more in common as children of God than we differ from each other. I fully agree that we must hold fast to our individuality. That's the part of us that we all need to celebrate and to share with our brothers and sisters. No two of us are the same! Let's not let them put us in the box with all the other common crackers (I think that's an old, old term for Saltines.)

May God bless you and may His Spirit continue to inspire you to seek the Truth no matter the cost.

Love in Christ,
Father Albert OSB

[FatherAlbert]

Dear Alecto,

Although I fully agree that all of us have our individual needs, our spiritual needs can be fulfilled within an "open and affirming" faith community. Jesus was the Good Shepherd to all: the poor, the wealthy, the sick and infirm, the "sinner." I don't want to begin a discussion of sin. My view is very simple but, I guess, radical, for these times of finger pointing. We do need to have clubs where like people can congregate and affirm, celebrate, and support each other in whatever their "thing" is. I don't believe that clubs, social and political groups should be included on the same level as a faith community. A true faith community (in my humble opinion) should force us to think outside the box and to speak our truth and listen to all our brothers and sisters. Yes, I know that this is certainly a quixotic way of thinking and believing, but I also believe that some of us are called to love unconditionally as much as is humanly possible. Don't we all believe that God loves us unconditionally with all our bumps and warts?! Only God can judge our thoughts and actions in this life.

If anyone is feeling the need to "herd" to fulfill their spiritual needs, they must search within where God is waiting to bless them and enfold them in His embrace which surpasses anything we can experience with our senses. I've been there and know of what I speak. (A story when I am feeling more secure in this venue.)

Let's all gather together at the river! Let's show them we are followers of the Christ by our love, especially when we assemble to worship Him.

Love in Christ,
Father Albert OSB

P.S. I am a professed monk in an ecumenical religious order without walls. We all live in the world and have jobs and all the rest that most people do. We try to live according to the Rule of Benedict and practice certain devotions every day. You can find a little bit about us on the website, the Grey Robed Monks of St. Benedict or at GROSB.

[Matt Algren]

I didn't fully explain my experience at MCC Naples. Firstly, I did not announce that I was heterosexual and I was dressed in my clericals (collar and black suit). The preacher was excellent and spoke about giving, emphasizing that spreading the news of their small congregation was one of the ways of giving. And he spoke about welcoming all and their mission to be an inclusive community.

When you limit your appeal solely to the GLBT population, you are working against growing a faith community. I would like you to reflect on the real difference between color and sexual orientation. I don't provide answers; I just ask questions.First, I'm not sure why you pointed out that you were wearing your uniform or why you even made it a point to wear it. Were you expecting to get special recognition or something? I don't understand.

Second, this is a conversation. We each provide questions and answers. That's how a conversation works. If you're just here to school us on your theories, I'll move on to another thread.

Third (I hate it when I number things, but I've come this far...), in regard to the rest of your post, you're thinking too much about yourself and your comfort instead of the needs and comfort of the community that the MCC was created to serve.

African American churches, more so than the mainstream churches that rejected them, became (and continue to be) not just churches, but social centers where members of that community can go and not worry about their minority status being a concern. I see no reason to assume that LGTB churches would be any different.

In other words, and I mean this in the least hostile way possible, it isn't about you. It's about people who've been rejected and/or attacked and/or injured, and their need of a safe place. You (not They) need to be sensitive to their (not your) needs.

Again, is this the perfect setup? No. But it's the best we can do given the circumstances in the world we live in.

[stevenrkelly]

This is a great discussion. For 29 years I served as a UMC pastor. During that time I was aware that an key componet of Christianity is that it is always lived within community. American culture focuses so much on individualism and I"m afraid that the American Christianity has moved its focus to individual faith as opposed to living out the faith in community. So many churches, liberal and conservative, seek to build community with folks that look like them, think like them, etc. Many faith communities have lost the art of learning how to agree to disagree.
As a therapist I know that human beings have a hard-wired, biological need to belong, to contribute, to receive, to feel appreciated, and to feel like someone "gets" them.
All that's to say: We are hard-wired for community. Faith communities can provide healthy venues to get those needs met as well the need to connect with something great than ourselves, that "Wholly Other" that some call God.
The hard part in all this? Getting along, giving people space to be. coming together around our common needs. I am hopeful because I have seen adn experienced glimpses of it.
So I keep going, hoping, believing.

Grace and Peace
Steve

[andrewlittle]

I am thoroughly enjoying, in both an intellectual and faith sense, this conversation. While I see some disagreements, I see them being played out lovingly and respectfully - oh, that we could say that about the world at large.

I see some of the distinctions being made as the constant battle between "is and ought."

In an ideal world, I agree totally that all - with all meaning all - ought to be able to worship together with no barriers, distinctions or limitations for any reason whatsoever.

It is, however, not an ideal world. The ideal is that to which we work towards - just like we work towards the Kingdom of God. The constant tension between the "now but not yet" is lived out in many ways - not the least of which is the way church is frequently segregated.

Given that there is an "is" - a place and time in which there exists people who have been harmed by the church universal and particular - there needs to be a venue that allows them some freedom from the harm they have experienced.

One benefit of being part of the dominant culture, like myself, is that I can easily find places within which I can be "home". Being a white, middle aged, heterosexual, educated, middle income male allows me a wide rage of areas in which I am in my element. If I change of the characteristics of dominance, however my choices start to decrease significantly. While this may not be the way it ought to be, it is the way it is.

In living into the Kingdom of God, we absolutely need to work towards mitigating the circumstances that cause the "is", but we cannot do that while ignoring that what "is" does in fact exist. We cannot just jump to the "ought" without first changing the conditions that block access to it.

[Alecto]

I have a tendancy to post later at night, and so I've missed one very important question. It's very unclear to me from your post just what made you uncomfortable at the MCC, and I think that might shed some important light, for me anyway, into what this is all about.

Also, Andy: the constant battle between "is and ought." This is how I conceptualize my experience as a gay man. I shouldn't have to be patient with people; it shouldn't be my job to educate straight folks (and I do still think it's wrong and unfair when they automatically expect me to). I shouldn't have to limit my behaviors at certain times of day or in certain places because of fears for my physical safety. But pretending that everything is the way it should be doesn't get me any closer to the way it should be. It just made me really happy that you used those terms that resonated with me. :)

[Daniel]

Andy- I really appreciate what you've articulated on the matter being discussed. You brought to mind what I have heard called 'relative reality', being a thing which certain persons, like those who are trying to get elected, are thinking about all the time. And then there is the 'cosmic reality'. Something else altogether. The big picture.

Sounds like your words 'is' and 'ought'. And I have to say, having an 'ought' imposed on one is like putting on a jacket that's a bit too tight.

Don't be all want a little more comfort than that?

[kara speltz]

One of the things missing in this discussion it seems to me is that somehow it feels to me Fr. Albert that you're judging all MCCs by your experience at one. I'm Roman Catholic and attend a very welcoming RC parish in Berkeley.

But I have also attended a number of different MCCs in my travels. Each one of them is very different, as are various RC parishes. I'm an out lesbian at my own parish, and I preach and am a Eucharistic Minister. That surely would not be allowed at most RC parishes. The same is obviously true within the MCC community. Some are more welcoming than others. Many of them have a number of straight allies attending because they are such a welcoming community.

I also want to reiterate what I wrote in my first post about privelege. I think Fr. Albert you really need, to take some time and pay attention to that issue. Because as a heterosexual, there is no way that you are not influenced by that; just as I am influenced by my white skin privelege.

I believe you are here as an ally, but it is imperative that as an ally, you recognize heterosexual privelege and work to overcome it.

One of the most outstanding experiences of a straight man recognizing his heterosexual privelege for me goes back to the year 2000. We were protesting at the United Methodist Conference in Cleveland. We were to meet with some of the bishops, and had created a "set of demands," so to speak. One of them was the reinstatement of our beloved Jimmy Creech who had been defrocked the previous Novemeber for performing same gender weddings.

Jimmy had not been at the meeting the night before when this came up, so when he saw the demands, he stood up and said, much to our astonishment. "I will not tread on my heterosexual privelege. I will not be reinstated in the Methodist Church, until every LGBT person who has been refused ordination because of their gender identity has been ordained."

What an amazing insight on the part of this very holy, man! None of us had even thought about that issue.

Acknowledging our position of privelege is the first step to becoming a trusted ally.

Kara

[FatherAlbert]

Dear Kara,

It's sad that we all as humans tend to place everyone in a certain category. It is, as I've stated before, the herding instinct, both to want to be with others who look, act, talk, and think like us in every way. The more variables we can find in common, the more magnetic and attractive the group.

I find it rather humorous that you feel that I am privileged as a "heterosexual male." I've really never thought about it, but now that the idea has been brought to my attention, I know that I have never been treated with any privilege by anybody, other than a hateful group of fundamentalists who invited me to worship because I seemed to be the correct color and had a family name that might indicate that I was ripe for the picking. This happened in the South when I was in the Army during the Vietnam war. It was also my very first experience of overt and very aggressive racism.

No, Kara, I don't come from a position of privilege in any respect. I have always been the outsider looking in. Even now, in my choice of fellowship I am an outsider because I am not allowed to celebrate Eucharist in any of the denominations which have a Eucharistic liturgy in the Catholic sense. I do facilitate small groups in centering prayer and "lectio divina" and spiritual reading groups using books that our group decides they want to study in depth. This all takes place in an Episcopalian community where I am not allowed on the altar in any capacity.

I admire you for staying with the Roman Catholic church. I felt hypocritical staying when I was in my mid-forties because of the concentration on the abortion issue every Sunday and the thinking that Roman Catholicism held all the Truth. I was told that all my Protestant relatives were living in error and even might not be able to go to heaven. Many of the Church rules made no sense to me. The more I prayed and read and spoke with people who had different thoughts, the more I felt alienated from the Church. And so, for me, I had to begin a search for a fellowship that was "open and affirming" and didn't impose all the restrictions and the guilt which the Church had placed on me. There is much more to my personal story which I am not ready to disclose at this time.

I shall refrain from posting until I once again feel that this is not a place that welcomes everyone to discuss. I really don't appreciate angry people making inferences about my motives for doing what I do. I do not wear a "uniform." I do want to be identified as a minister or priest when I visit the hospital or am performing any duties of a pastoral nature. Incidentally, my finding is that when I am dressed as a priest, I am usually looked upon suspiciously and with some disdain. That's a discussion for another time.

I don't have any theories that I am trying to expound. Unless you believe that my conviction that God loves us all unconditionally before all time is a theory.

Love and blessings to all my brothers and sisters wherever you are and whoever you are,
Father Albert OSB

[Alecto]

I'm not trying to be pedantic or judgemental, or even snarky. One of the major points about any kind of privilige is that it goes unnoticed by those who hold it until it is brought to their attention. That's a part of the privilige is that you don't have to recognize it.
It's not about "People see I'm straight so they always like me!". It's a whole list of things that sometimes apply to straight folks, but almost never apply to those of us on the non-heteronormative side. And it's not the only kind of privilige operating, so that while I lack hetero privilige, I do still have full access to male privilige, and white privilige. More information about what we're talking about, specifically with heterosexual privilige, can be found here (http://members.aol.com/ahotcupofjava/hetero.html) and here (http://thepaintedturtle.blogspot.com/2005/03/heterosexual-privilege-checklist.html). Surely, there's more on google, but these sites link to other articles about white privilige that might better explain the concepts.

(Maybe if someone else knows about topics within this forum discussing privilige, they'd be so kind as to link? I can't remember any in recent history)


I would also gently point out that the frustration you're feeling about people being "angry", and you don't know why: that's all a part of the different needs that different people have. That you don't understand why these folks might question your motives demonstrates a general lack of understanding on your part of what it means to be queer in America. There's plenty of folks who will tell you that we're no different from anyone else. I beg to differ: in so many ways, we're similar, and it's so important to remember that, but in doing so we can't forget that because of our place in society, and the effects that has on us, we are different in some ways too. At least some of us. And ignoring that doesn't help us out any.

[Daniel]

Dear Father Albert,

I would ask you to please remember that site exists to bring many kinds of people together around the table with nonviolence and inclusion at the center of the table.

Please remember: you started the discussion and pulling out now really is rather bad form on your part. I encourage you to stay around and think about things. You last post comes across to this reader as very defensive, and as such, is hardly in the spirit in which you started this thread.

Ok. If you want to take your marbles and go play somewhere else. Fine. But remember, this is a public forum, with many views, some of them which you may not agree with (I noticed you did the gracious thing and ignored my comments! ;))

If you only want to be here to have others agree with you, then that is another matter, and if so, that is not a discussion, but something else entirely.

I think they call that grandstanding.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/grandstanding

And as such, it doesn't make for great conversation. Why do I know all about such a matter? Because I have an ego just like everyone else and can be prone to just such a stance.

Big deal!

How about let's try to get along rather than take offense so easily.

[Matt Algren]

Ditto what Alecto said. I haven't seen anybody in the thread who is 'angry'. If you're talking about me, I'm sincerely not. I asked a question that may have been uncomfortable to you, but seriously, half of my mother's family is German Baptist (just this side of Mennonite); they wear a uniform and that's what they call it. It's not a term of derision, just of acknowledgment.

As for not coming from privilege, you said upthread that you've been married for 36 years. Until four days ago, we didn't have that privilege anywhere in the US. Now we have the privilege in a whole 2% of US states. Ever held your wife's hand walking down the street, or given her a peck on the cheek in the mall, or put her picture on your desk, or just started a sentence with the words "My wife and I..."? We haven't had that privilege. When you were growing up, were you allowed to date, or to just acknowledge that you thought a girl was pretty? We weren't allowed to do that*.

That's not a knock on you, it's just an acknowledgment of reality.




*And girls are gross anyway.

[kara speltz]

Fr. Albert: I have gone back over this thread and see no anger. I'm wondering whether you perceive people disagreeing with you as anger?
Have you ever disagreed with someone and not been angry? Trust me, I'm not angry. I deal with this issue 24/7, and my commitment to nonviolence holds me to respond with love. I have failed at times, but this time, was not one of them. I was not angry. I was simply trying to point out to you where you have some potential for growth.

It appears to me that you are refusing to examine anything people have mentioned here, denying that you have neither white skin nor heterosexual privelege. That to me rings as has been pointed out as being highly defensive.

Truthfully, I have never trusted anyone who said, for instance, "I'm not racist." Racism is institutionalized in our society and it takes a great deal of work to get rid of the racist baggage, we grow up with. This is also true of heterosexism. I spoke of Jimmy Creech who is one of my heros, because I wanted to point out his amazing capacity to examine and challenge heterosexism.

I hope you won't quit. You have much to learn. Just as I had much to learn from my Afro-American friends and family. I have an Afro-American son who is now over 40. But that doesn't mean I don't respond at times in racist ways because of my upbringing. I have to challenge that on a daily basis, even after 40 years.

I invite you to challenge your own racist and heterosexist understandings. It's a wonderful opportunity to learn. You'll never learn about either of these if you just take your ball and go home.

All of this is said in LOVE, not anger. Please understand that.

Kara

[andrewlittle]

Privilege occurs when you are within the "norm" that rules, customs, laws and traditions are designed by and for.

I notice we share something in particular, Father Albert. We are both mixed ethnicity - native American and white, to be precise. Besides a foot anomaly that is common to the Shawnee, the only Indian trait that proved dominant in my gene pool was the color of my skin. I have facial features from my father's side, not my mother's, unlike my sister. She got all the good looks from my mother's side of the family tree.

So, what do you suppose happens when my sister and I are out in public together (which is rare, because she now lives in Australia again)? She is perceived immediately as a Native American, and I am noticed as a white man with a nice tan. We are treated very differently in most places, with my sister usually getting the short straw.

Several things can enter into that, besides the fact that she looks Indian and I don't. She's a "she", I'm not. She's quite heavy set, while I am at the top end of "normal". She wears her hair very short, as do I. But, then again, that makes me visibly gender conforming.

Privilege happens - and to the privileged it is invisible, unless they take the time to understand how privilege plays out. The very fact that someone can say, "I do not have privilege", when they more closely fit the social "norm" is a privileged position.

I have privilege as a male - almost all the rules were established by males and for males to maintain male hegemony. Males don't generally have to worry about "glass ceilings" because of the social class to which they belong, unless they are not - or more precisely, do not look white. Male is the norm - odd, since we are not the majority.

I have privilege because, as far as anyone is concerned, I am white. Since I lost my accent (which was English/Australian because that's where I was raised), I have not been asked where I or my family is from. People of color or other visible ethnic heritage are frequently asked. Why? Because they are obviously not white, and thereore they must be identifiable. White is the norm.

I have heterosexual privilege, not limited to being able to marry someone that I love. I am slightly effeminate in some ways, which raises no eyebrows when I am with my wife. But, if I am with another man, I can see the minds of other people ticking away trying to accertain if I am gay. I become "the other" as is evidenced by the inordinate number of people who have brought up "not having a problem with gays" in initial conversations with me.

I have lots of other privileges, too. Privilege turns into prejudice when the "norm" carries with it the weight of institutional enforcement. As a male, no-one ever questioned my right to vote, and I do not have to wonder at the remarkable feat that someone of my gender has accomplished by running for the office of president. As a white, I never had to read the statistics about how young people of my race die from violent crimes at an lower rate or that I have a lower rate of incarceration. As a heterosexual, no-one ever questioned my right to marry, despite having been married so many times it makes a mockery of "until death do us part."

You, Father Albert, walk down the street holding your wife's hand and you'll get not a second glance unless it conveys, "isn't that cute at their age." But, then again, that the opposit of the privilege of being middle-aged - being in your sixties now makes you an other in that regard. Now, try walking down the street holding another man's hand. What looks or comments would you get then.

That's when privilege starts to become obvious - when you don;t look, act or seem like the wallpaper of dominant culture. And, if it's not too bold, you have the same kind of privilege I used to have - the worst kind - the unconscious kind. Once you become conscious of it, it becomes downright embarrassing how often it plays out.

[FatherAlbert]

Dear Kara,

I have been dealing with bias and prejudice of every king all my life. Believe me I fully understand what you mean by both heterosexual and male privilege. I have dealt with both in my life for many, many years. I have grown far beyond those perceptions and feelings that the majority of Americans possess. It was in 1984 when we were in France that standing in line at the Louvre, I observed two girls openly demonstrating their affection by kissing each other. When we attended the Opéra Comique for a performance two middle-aged men who were sitting in front of us were holding hands throughout the performance. I didn't notice anyone responding in a negative way then, and that's a few years ago. I guess maybe it is I who am very different and don't see color and don't see the big deal with sexual orientation and gender identity. I guess people missed my posting in which I mentioned that we have all kinds of people in my family, Afro-American, Asian, white liberals, white and narrow-minded conservatives, gays and transgendered. We all love each other and celebrate and affirm our differences.

I am constantly berated for speaking up about God's love for all His children and that not one of us can judge the other without turning her/his back on God. I have been accused (I took it as a compliment) of being a "free radical" by a friend. I am a socialist as, I believe, Jesus was politically.

Yes, I have my difficulties with judging as we all have. My judging is on a more personal level. I become very impatient (angry) with anyone who quotes the Bible about almost anything with a conviction that the Bible was written by God. I know all about slavery and isolation and feeling "queer." As I have stated previously, there will come a time when I can share in more depth my journey with y'all; however, right now some of the journey of the past is too painful for me to share. I promise that I shall not leave the conversation. I don't have answers to many questions; much of what you say I can't understand because of who I am and not because I am classified in certain categories.

I was referring to anger concerning another posting from someone who doesn't know me at all. I am one of those transparent people who finds it impossible to tolerate bias of any kind and feel the need to speak out when I see or hear anything that I believe is contrary to the life and teaching of the Good Shepherd. I try never to be hurtful, but sometimes the hateful remarks are so terrible that I can't stop from speaking up.

I need to process much of what has transpired over the past few days of this conversation. I'll try to be quiet and meditate on all that each of you has said. I am very much looking to change the way people treat each other. That is the mission I have been called to and I'll see it through until the end. If one person can become open and affirming of all brothers and sisters, then I'll have done a God joy and I can return to my God with joy and thanksgiving.

Love and blessings to all my brothers and sisters whoever you are, wherever you are.
Never forget that God loved you unconditionally before all time. He never leaves us; we turn from him when we forget to love our neighbor as we do ourselves.

Albert

[Daniel]

I am very much looking to change the way people treat each other. That is the mission I have been called to and I'll see it through until the end. If one person can become open and affirming of all brothers and sisters, then I'll have done a God joy and I can return to my God with joy and thanksgiving.


Sorry to butt in on your message to Kara, but the passage I have bolded above caught my eye.

What was Gandhi's message of nonviolence? To be the change we seek. That is a very difference stance from that of seeking to change others. And perhaps, this may be one of the reasons for the 'disconnect' on this thread.

This site's premise IS all about being the change we ALL seek, not convincing others to believe or think as we do. This may sounds paradoxical, but the statement itself is very different in tone from that the one which you state, which is akin to an imposition.

Let's be frank here: would you really like me to 'change' you? I rather doubt it.

Would you appreciate it if I extended to you the love and care that you deserve?

Isn't that a very different matter?

The injunction as I see it- and as Gandhi and King saw it- and I say this as one who was classified as a Christian and now as a Buddhist: is that we can ONLY change ourselves.

Now. If you meant something else by your words, by all means, please explain yourself.

I welcome your response.

If there is an answer to the question which titles this thread, it lies in an understanding - nay- an experience- of this principle of nonviolence.

[BishopIoan]

Hi, Fr. Albert.
I have visited MCC parishes over the years and most have been accepting and welcoming. One, I visited was while still an Orthodox nun. I was wearing regular clothing but my bishop introduced me as “Mother Ioan”, which made for an uncomfortable time all round. However I understood, because I know of the mistreatment LGBT people, myself included, at the hands of the various churches.

I respectfully submit, Father, that you do not and cannot understand something you take for granted, i.e., heterosexual privilege. Even things you can take for granted—holding hands with your wife or publicly kissing her—can get an LGBT person a great deal of social disapproval, or worse—just because of who they are. I cannot be affectionate with my spouse in public for fear of what might happen.

I have come to realise that I cannot change the world. I can only change myself, which will hopfully bring change in others, and, eventually perhaps the world.

This a very interesting conversation. I hope to see more here to think about,

[FatherAlbert]

Dear Daniel,

Thanks so much for your insight! Yes, I know now that to continue the dialogue is a good thing. I shall explain what I mean by changing the world. Like others who are committed to nonviolent change, I have already been changed. My change is effected through example to others. There are no exceptions to those who, I feel, should be included at the table, literally and figuratively. I understand now that this forum is useful for lots of things; however, because you don't know me as a person and my life and and faith journey, this is not the appropriate venue for me. I have long been a follower of Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Jr., and Buddhist philosophy (mostly through Thomas Merton who lived the authentic life in his words and actions). I now follow many different spiritual guides, Buddhist, Hindu, Christian, and humanist. Please accept my apologies to all for any words I have written which have offended.

I have been this way before in my career as an educator. I know when not to attempt to explain myself any further. After thirty-four years in my profession, I took my marbles and left the forum, knowing I had accomplished what I had set out to do. But that's another story for another day.

I don't have a congregation. We have a small group of people who come together to worship. I don't seek anybody. I meet people and when asked I explain who I am and what I am about. I am a member of an ecumenical religious order composed of people from different denominations or from no denomination, people who work in the world and try to live by the Rule of Benedict. Each person has her/his own strengths and chooses to follow the Benedictine way as closely as they can. It is the same for my priesthood in the United Catholic Church. We come from different backgrounds, have different ministries, and different approaches to spirituality. We are small, but are a place where all are welcome, especially at the Lord's Table. We are cathoic because of our holding to the faith of the early Christian church up to the end of the first millennium or around the second council of Nicea. We are not a denomination intentionally, but a post-denominational fellowship, all sharing the same vision and mission.

My personal relationship with Jesus is what guides me through life. I attempt to follow His journey as closely as possible even when the going gets rough.

'Nough said.

With all love and blessings to all my brothers and sisters and praying that we all arrive at that place of absolute serenity which is God or whatever you name your absolute Truth. Fight the good fight within. Never raise your hand against a neighbor. There are no enemies in this life, only brothers and sisters who differ from us.

I stand firm on my mentor's words in my journey through life: "Nothing we do can change the past; everything we do can change the future." Joan Chittester

Albert, a seeker of the Truth

P.S. I suggest that you might enjoy reading a book named "The Wounded Prophet." It might help you understand me a little bit better.

[FatherAlbert]

Dear BishopIoan,

I appreciate your comments and do understand your feelings about having to refrain from public affirmation of your relationship with your spouse. I don't understand "heterosexual privilege" at all. It is a new term and new concept for me. In my relationship with my friends, we don't have anything we cannot share. I am really thinking hard about my relationships with my GLBT friends. They share everything with me: their feelings, their ideas, their spiritual journey, their open affection for each other. And they accept me for who I am. I have asked them if they consider me "a privileged heterosexual male." All reply, "Absolutely not!" I can only relate to what I know, what I have learned and experienced. Do I understand the difficulties of "coming out" and how hurtful that is for young people? I have been witness to the taunts and cruelties of adolescents toward their peers who are different. I have also been a vocal advocate for the equal treatment and consideration of all. However, even with my counsel and open acceptance of individual differences in my students, I have also witnessed the numbers who can no longer remain in this world because of the cruelty of what I guess you might call "the heterosexual world." I have suffered deeply because of what I see as cruel and abusive treatment by ignorant people. And yet I am also called to be non-judgmental because Jesus' words: Father, forgive them for they know not what they do" reverberates in my very soul. I feel blessed to have been a part of the change which is just, after all these years, at the beginning stages.

I used to call this kind of unacceptable behavior "homophobia." Now I am hearing other terms. I applaud your entrance into this discussion which is long overdue. I ask only that we remain open and attempt to think "outside the box." I realize that not many people are able to do that kind of thinking with lots of help. I guess that is part of my mission: to lead by example in my quiet way, seeking to help people to understand that God loves each and every one of us unconditionally, the way He made us. In His realm there are no rich or poor, black or white, hetero- or homosexual.

When we open ourselves up to love the other, we also must accept the suffering associated with doing so. We all exist in time and space and are all influenced more or less by that fact. God exists outside of those parameters and we seekers constantly strive to come close to Him by leading lives that are transparent to all.

Albert, a seeker

[kara speltz]

Dear BishopIoan,

I appreciate your comments and do understand your feelings about having to refrain from public affirmation of your relationship with your spouse. I don't understand "heterosexual privilege" at all. It is a new term and new concept for me. In my relationship with my friends, we don't have anything we cannot share. I am really thinking hard about my relationships with my GLBT friends. They share everything with me: their feelings, their ideas, their spiritual journey, their open affection for each other. And they accept me for who I am. I have asked them if they consider me "a privileged heterosexual male." All reply, "Absolutely not!" I can only relate to what I know, what I have learned and experienced. Do I understand the difficulties of "coming out" and how hurtful that is for young people? I have been witness to the taunts and cruelties of adolescents toward their peers who are different. I have also been a vocal advocate for the equal treatment and consideration of all. However, even with my counsel and open acceptance of individual differences in my students, I have also witnessed the numbers who can no longer remain in this world because of the cruelty of what I guess you might call "the heterosexual world." I have suffered deeply because of what I see as cruel and abusive treatment by ignorant people. And yet I am also called to be non-judgmental because Jesus' words: Father, forgive them for they know not what they do" reverberates in my very soul. I feel blessed to have been a part of the change which is just, after all these years, at the beginning stages.

I used to call this kind of unacceptable behavior "homophobia." Now I am hearing other terms. I applaud your entrance into this discussion which is long overdue. I ask only that we remain open and attempt to think "outside the box." I realize that not many people are able to do that kind of thinking with lots of help. I guess that is part of my mission: to lead by example in my quiet way, seeking to help people to understand that God loves each and every one of us unconditionally, the way He made us. In His realm there are no rich or poor, black or white, hetero- or homosexual.

When we open ourselves up to love the other, we also must accept the suffering associated with doing so. We all exist in time and space and are all influenced more or less by that fact. God exists outside of those parameters and we seekers constantly strive to come close to Him by leading lives that are transparent to all.

Albert, a seeker

Dear Albert: Daniel tried to address this issue to you and you just ignored it. Your role at this point is to learn. You haven't considered heterosexual privelege before. You hadn't even considered that you might have that privelege. So I suggest you stop justifying yourself, use a little humility and listen.

We all have something to teach one another. The problem I experience with the vast majority of priests is they have no conception that they have anything else to do but teach.

Again, as Daniel pointed out Gandhi taught that "we must become the change we seek." Please step down from your throne and join the throng as we teach one another.

Kara

[FatherAlbert]

Dear Matt,

I wish I had the time to say all that I understand about privilege. I apologize for seeing your comment as coming from anger. That only shows that we are all subject to error and human frailty. I love your comments about equal rights for all. And yes, I am very much saddened by the treatment of the GLBT faction of our society.

I do want you and all my brothers and sisters to think a little about the following:
Women did not have the right to vote in this country until recently.
Native Americans have been relegated to remote corners where they are forgotten by the vast majority of the rest of us.
Slavery and indentured servitude exists, still strong and healthy, in the agricultural community especially.
Irish Catholics in the late 1800's and the early 1900's were told on signs in factory windows: No Irish Catholic need apply!
Today on this planet half of the population is invisible: THE WOMEN
People of color, especially our black brothers and sisters, weren't considered fully human until after the Emancipation Proclamation.
Too many of us are now looking at the world of Islam as the "enemy." What's that all about?
Too few of us look to the East for direction in our spiritual lives. Western religions and philosophies dominate.
Individuals have through their lifelong commitment effected dramatic change in how we treat and perceive our brothers and sisters: Dorothy Day, Oscar Romero, Martin Luther King, Jr., Ghandi, and yes, even Tim Russert who lived the authentic life and who will be sorely missed by all of us, whether consciously or unconsciously.

Let's all think! Can we gather together in love to demonstrate by our action and our word that we can no longer accept exclusion of any group of people. I have a problem with the right-wing fundamentalists and some of the evangelicals. That's my problem. I thank the post that reminded me that, they too, need their space. I'm working on changing that attitude within myself.

Love and blessings,
Albert

[FatherAlbert]

Dear Kara,

I find it difficult to comprehend that you did not feel that I absorbed what Daniel had to say. I did, and I accept his ideas and opinions.

I find it offensive that you place judgment on who I am and what I do by using the term "throne." Unfortunately, you have not grasped much of what I have had to say. I am a learner always. However, I am also a teacher for those who want to listen and to change themselves as I have changed with much prayer, observation, and study. The concept of "thinking outside the box" precludes making judgments of the ideas and feelings of others. That judgmental piece of our humanity is the norm in this world. I guess that is why this forum is not meant for someone like me who is outside the norm and, as I stated before, have become a "free radical."

I have found serenity and true acceptance after a long struggle. I cannot change who I am to suit the needs of others. I am a constant listener and respecter of the other. I shall continue my journey with that commitment.

May you be blessed with all the good that God wants for you and all of us. My prayers are with you and the wonderful brothers and sisters who are seekers of Truth in this forum. For each of us Truth is different and our path back to the Creator is a very long, personal, and often painful journey.

Albert

[Gennee]

My idea of inclusion is that everyone should be welcomed to a church, regardless of who they are. I totally agree about what was mentioned about pedophiles.

I attend a non-denominational church of many races and cultures. When I served as an usher I made a habit of welcoming newcomers. One one occasion, I went out of my way to welcome a lesbian couple. In my mind, if a person cannot feel welcome in church, where else can they go?

I am fascinated by the early Christian church and have done some studies on it. That must have been a very interesting place to say the least. One of the reasons it impressed many pagans was its inclusiveness.

Gennee

[wmanion]

Albert,
The question first posed at the beginning of this thread, was how can we begin to include everyone? I know that at God's table all should be included, no matter what!
However, the first step to inclusion is acceptance. It will not be until society as a whole and faith-based religions on a whole accept the GLBT community that this will happen. I believe that this is the goal of Soulforce.
Being born heterosexual in this world gives an automatic pass to that table. When was the last time you heard that little Johnny was beat up at school for being heterosexual...that little Johnny's parents kicked him out of the house and family for being heterosexual...or that little Johnny committed suicide because he could no longer accept the stigma that came with him being a heterosexual? The heterosexual privilege that is talked about here is the automatic acceptance into society at large and in many of the churches. Boys are not hung in other countries for being heterosexual.
I guess what I am trying to say is the first step to inclusiveness has to be acceptance. I am happy that your worship circle has come to this place of acceptance, however, in the world at large this is not the case. When the threat of exclusion is gone then inclusion will able to take its place. We have come a long way but the journey is far from over.

Bill

[kara speltz]

I've been examining my own responses to this thread and wondering why it was pushing some buttons for me. So here's what I've come up with, does this make any sense?

First I have to say Albert, that what I've experienced in your attitude, was very little humility and a great deal of arrogance about teaching us how to behave. And I never appreciate that.

But my second, and I suspect most intense responses came from the fact that you're addressing the wrong folks. As a heterosexual white male, coming into this forum, you're talking to people who as a whole tried to include and welcome everyone, but because of our exclusion, have a need for a safe and sacred space.

As a heterosexual white male, your questions should be addressed to those who exclude. We may not always welcome people as fully as we might, but we don't exclude anyone. So when you come on to a forum as a new member and immediately tell us we're not doing it right and YOU are going to teach us how, I do get defensive.

I believe in most MCCs, as I have stated before, our allies are warmly and fully welcome. Occasionally you might run into a group that hasn't fully succeeded, but they are the exception.

So my challenge to you Albert is two fold, stay and continue to learn from those of us who have had to walk this journey, humbly understanding that even though you've watched others walk the journey and your heart is broken by the hatefulness you've seen on the part of your heterosexual brothers and sisters, the teaching needs to be directed to those who exclude.

Just as you, as a white male can't teach Afro-Americans, or women how to walk their journeys, it isn't your place as a person of privelege to tell us how to walk ours. Now I understand that you don't believe you are a person of privelege, but believe me you are.

One last thought - had the same questions been raised by one of our LGBT folks, I know I would have received it in a very different place.

Years ago, when I was part of a Catholic Worker that was serving a mostly black population, a black friend of mine said, very honestly. "You need to go work with your own people, because even if you come with the best of intentions, given the institutional racism, it will be received as paternalism."
I didn't want to hear that, I'll acknowledge that, but ultimately, I understood what my friend was saying and followed her advice.

I hope Albert you can comprehend what I'm saying. I'm not saying you should leave, I'm only saying that your work at creating change starts with yourself and then sharing that change with heterosexuals who haven't as yet experienced that transformation.

Kara

[Zerbie]

I do not consider myself heterosexual.

I do observe that I receive heterosexual privilege every day. It's because of the man on my arm. Hardly a day goes by that I don't notice it. And I may as well admit, I enjoy not having to think twice before telling someone that that man on my arm is my partner, spouse, and husband. I enjoy having our relationship recognized and respected Every Place We Go. I like not looking over my shoulder in apprehension that there might be heterophobes lurking in the shadows ready to mess with us.

So, I'm not straight, but I have heterosexual privilege. What's up with that?? The point is, this kind of security about your place in the world and society, this degree of *belonging* is what everyone should have (one of Andy's 'oughts.')

How do we create that world? I've been puzzling lately over the quandary that we cannot change something outside us. I work at being who I know I am supposed to, but what I really want to see change is what's outside me, and that, I can do nothing about.

So what do we do? How do we create the community of love for all?

[Daniel]

Years ago, when I was part of a Catholic Worker that was serving a mostly black population, a black friend of mine said, very honestly. "You need to go work with your own people, because even if you come with the best of intentions, given the institutional racism, it will be received as paternalism."
I didn't want to hear that, I'll acknowledge that, but ultimately, I understood what my friend was saying and followed her advice.


Your words remind me of my husband's experience: he is a tall man- six foot four- and at sight epitomizes white heterosexual privilege. People expect him to be 'in charge'.

As an organist (oh....we could have fun thinking of the men who are organist's and straight, right? Count'em on one hand we could!) he's played in African-American churches and has experienced the full brunt of what it means to represent perceived privilege. Let me tell you: it wasn't pretty. Racism goes both ways, and as a white man in a black church- so he found- can make one the focal point for what I shall call 'uncooked stuff'.

And I would like to point out: we all have uncooked stuff.

I really don't believe anyone who says that are totally open and accepting et al. Why? Because only Jesus Christ Himself or the Buddha or some other Enlightened Being has THAT kind of realization where something doesn't pull their chain. I've even observed for myself (a post on another thread) where the Dalai Lama really doesn't understand or 'get' gay persons in the way that some of his gay followers think he does (and really....why should he....it's totally out of context for him as a monk). And I respect and admire him very much. Follow his teachings. Does that mean he has a total understanding of others and their experience? Ah.....no! That said, does he work daily on being compassionate? Yes!

But I digress!

You are right. It is very hard to minister to those who have a certain view of one, a view which the person perceived did not create.

I agree: our gifts are often meant for others who most need to hear the message. Otherwise, one risks preaching- or teaching- to the choir. And baby- they already know the tune.

Play it again Sam! (wink)

[FatherAlbert]

Dear Kara,

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I have no clue of what you mean by changing myself. I certainly am as far from being arrogant about anyone's ideas, choices, actions, or way of being in this world.

For me there is one message only: God's loves all His children equally and unconditionally. I am not attempting in any way to teach or dictate how we should be in the world. I have the same message for everyone, so that if a privileged heterosexual male should interact with me, he needs to understand what my belief system is as a member and minister in my fellowship. I will not be part of any group that discriminates at all for any reason. I guess what I need to learn is that I am identified as a privileged heterosexual male even if I am not treated as such because I am much more than just that. I am a whole person with my unique idiosyncracies and way of being in the world.

In no posting (I reviewed and printed hard copies of all) is there any arrogance or attempt to change anyone or anything. My one experience was negative and I am not painting any group with a broad paintbrush. I didn't fall upon the congregation whose service I attended. I was invited and encouraged by my good friends who have been committed partners for more than thirty years and were married in Canada two years ago. They felt that I would be a welcome addition to their congregation because we all had difficulty with non-acceptance in the Episcopal Church.

Please don't tell me that I don't know what it feels like to be excluded. I walked that path all my life because I refused to keep quiet when I saw any kind of injustice or inequality. Just like a good psychologist or psychotherapist, one doesn't need to have experienced the illness in order to provide support and help to those that are dealing with problems. I guess that is why I don't understand how readers can pick and choose the parts that they want to see and respond to. I've yet to hear how you can help me to create an environment of acceptance for all. I am an outsider and always have been for lots of reasons. Please don't tell me how it feels to be treated badly or uninvited to groups, or dismissed as a fool for trying to improve situations which I know aren't what they should be. I speak mostly of my experience as an educator. I embraced Howard Gardiner's theories for educating today's children and worked with the state department of education to begin a process of changing how we think of teaching and learning. My enthusiasm and excitement were soon deflated when I returned to my school district to find that the vast majority of teachers were not willing and, in some cases, unable to change for the benefit of our students. I worked for three years to provide opportunities for teachers to begin a process of change, only to be told that I was banging my head against a brick wall. However, in the classrooms in which we had experimented with "inclusion", teachers and students were happier, more productive, and better prepared to integrate in a fully included world. This was accomplished because of the evidence I provided to convince a few good teachers to try. I am humbled and privileged to have worked with and for that small group which still ten years later believes that all children can learn together in the same space without being herded or tracked on tests and assessments that are flawed.

As I write this post I must tell you that I am weeping to think that I have been so poorly received because of my inability to express my sincerity at making inroads in our faith communities for full inclusion. I guess I am a dreamer and I have often been referred as "Don Quijote" because I believe that nothing is impossible except our resistance to change from within.

I shall continue to listen and to learn. I know that I have not been understood in this forum and that is okay. Like I've said; I've been there, done that before.

Blessings to all my brothers and sisters whoever you are, wherever you are,
Albert, a seeker

[Alecto]

Ok, so: I'll say it. Most people here, though wary due to years of past experience, are in no way doubting your good intentions. I myself am 100% sure that you didn't intend to come here to offend a bunch of people. There's pleny of folks that I'm not so sure about (and they quickly find their way to the foyer); that's not you.

As for the original question: I think that building a true community, where we are all treated equally as individuals, and fully embraced, we need to tackle the problem of privilige. This is NOT an unrelated side tangent. I'm not asking you to solve the problem all by yourself, but I do require of my friends, and of people that I would choose to associate with, that they at least acknowledge it.
I didn't start to truly react negatively to you until you said that you had no privilige. Because the fact is, having privilige doesn't mean you're a rockstar and everyone everywhere adores you and never a bad word is said to you. NO ONE here is saying that, by having privilige, you don't know what it's like to be sad. Or to be mocked. or any of that. But there is a part of the queer experience that you do seem to lack, and I subject to you that that is why you don't understand our need for safe space. If you didn't get a chance to read the links about what we mean by privilige, please do. If you read those, and then tell me with a straight face that you don't encounter ANY of them in your daily life, I guess you'll have a very interesting life story to share. Otherwise, you DO carry privilige, and the whole point of this isn't to say "that makes you evil!" The point is that it's not your fault as an individual, and that acknowledging that is the first step in making any kind of peace with those who don't have that privilige.

I'll ask again, because I'm still VERY unclear: what happened at the MCC you went to that was negative? You said it was a bad experience, but then the next paragraph details some positive aspects of it.


As a sidenote: I think it'd be worthwhile to note the difference between bigotry and racism or heterosexism. Bigotry is unkind. It's not a good thing, and I'm in no way defending it for ANYONE. But racism and heterosexism, as words, reflect the fact that there IS one race / sexual orientation in the over-arching social structure that carries more power. When the white guy is treated differently, unkindly, or unfairly because of his race, it's unfortunate, but it doesn't reflect a long-standing pattern in that guy's life, or the history of the rest of the white folks in his culture. All that is to say that, strictly speaking, bigotry goes both ways, but racism really doesn't. [/semantic bitchiness]

[Daniel]

As a sidenote: I think it'd be worthwhile to note the difference between bigotry and racism or heterosexism. Bigotry is unkind. It's not a good thing, and I'm in no way defending it for ANYONE. But racism and heterosexism, as words, reflect the fact that there IS one race / sexual orientation in the over-arching social structure that carries more power. When the white guy is treated differently, unkindly, or unfairly because of his race, it's unfortunate, but it doesn't reflect a long-standing pattern in that guy's life, or the history of the rest of the white folks in his culture. All that is to say that, strictly speaking, bigotry goes both ways, but racism really doesn't. [/semantic bitchiness]

A white man living in Harlem- and I know serveral- would have a different view of this- I have to say. And my husband worked at the church I wrote about for 5 years, not an insubstantial time. Did he come home to a place where he was treated badly? No. Did he go to a place every Sudnay where he had to walk on egg-shells to keep his job because he as white and gay? Yes.

Why did he keep that job for five years? Because they paid him very well. And they figured out - it seems- that they weren't going to get and keep a good musician if they didn't pay for it. That's the reality of the situation I write about. Does the African-American community - in general- have the same access to or level of musical training as that which my husband does? Could they find a good black organist who could play in the very decidedly classical tradition they wanted? In a word: no.

Simply put, I disagree with you. I have seen with my own eyes that racism goes both ways. And I could recount to you some peculiar ways in which it has.

In my own profession for example (opera land). The company I work for hired several African-American singers (were're talking an opera company) to fill positions. I heard the auditions for those spots. In one case, the singer chosen got the postion on merit. And in another case, the singer did not. And in that case, there were a lot of angry people. Why? Because the company chose policy over people. Who did the hiring? White people.

Is it a perfect system? No. Was the goal (apparently) to have greater representation? Yes.

As I saw it then, there was a peculiar kind of racism involved- a reverse kind of racism- on the part of those hiring. But one is not supposed to mention this kind of matter. It is usually swept under the rug.

And my husband certainly experienced what happend to him as racism. He was targeted by one member of his choir BECAUSE he was white and gay. Not so easy to divide the two perhaps. But one has to have lived through the experience to really understand it.

It may be semantics to you, but the felt experience was something else entirely.

[kara speltz]

A white man living in Harlem- and I know serveral- would have a different view of this- I have to say. And my husband worked at the church I wrote about for 5 years, not an insubstantial time. Did he come home to a place where he was treated badly? No. Did he go to a place every Sudnay where he had to walk on egg-shells to keep his job because he as white and gay? Yes.

Why did he keep that job for five years? Because they paid him very well. And they figured out - it seems- that they weren't going to get and keep a good musician if they didn't pay for it. That's the reality of the situation I write about. Does the African-American community - in general- have the same access to or level of musical training as that which my husband does? Could they find a good black organist who could play in the very decidedly classical tradition they wanted? In a word: no.

Simply put, I disagree with you. I have seen with my own eyes that racism goes both ways. And I could recount to you some peculiar ways in which it has.

In my own profession for example (opera land). The company I work for hired several African-American singers (were're talking an opera company) to fill positions. I heard the auditions for those spots. In one case, the singer chosen got the postion on merit. And in another case, the singer did not. And in that case, there were a lot of angry people. Why? Because the company chose policy over people. Who did the hiring? White people.

Is it a perfect system? No. Was the goal (apparently) to have greater representation? Yes.

As I saw it then, there was a peculiar kind of racism involved- a reverse kind of racism- on the part of those hiring. But one is not supposed to mention this kind of matter. It is usually swept under the rug.

And my husband certainly experienced what happend to him as racism. He was targeted by one member of his choir BECAUSE he was white and gay. Not so easy to divide the two perhaps. But one has to have lived through the experience to really understand it.

It may be semantics to you, but the felt experience was something else entirely.

Dear Daniel: While I most often agree with you, this is a place I don't.

As a rule, I don't believe in reverse racism, because my definition of racism has a power component to it. I have a friend who actually was a victim of reverse racism in that he happened to hear a black professor (clearly a person in power in terms of a student) say that he automatically gave his white students lower grades. That was the first time, I was able to acknowledge that racism might be a reverse situation. But for the most part, since blacks in this country have very limited power, I don't believe it applies except in perhaps a 5-10% specific situation.

Now I would call what happened to your husband bigotry. And clearly bigotry runs the gamut. I'm a bit bigoted towards rich people, coming out of a working class background. It takes a lot for me to warm up to people with a lot of money. Since I have no power, I wouldn't call it classism, but I would acknowledge it as bigotry. Can you see the fine line there?

This thread gets more and more interesting as we progress. I always find these discussions around privelege fascinating. Kara

[Daniel]

Dear Daniel: While I most often agree with you, this is a place I don't.

As a rule, I don't believe in reverse racism, because my definition of racism has a power component to it. I have a friend who actually was a victim of reverse racism in that he happened to hear a black professor (clearly a person in power in terms of a student) say that he automatically gave his white students lower grades. That was the first time, I was able to acknowledge that racism might be a reverse situation. But for the most part, since blacks in this country have very limited power, I don't believe it applies except in perhaps a 5-10% specific situation.

Now I would call what happened to your husband bigotry. And clearly bigotry runs the gamut. I'm a bit bigoted towards rich people, coming out of a working class background. It takes a lot for me to warm up to people with a lot of money. Since I have no power, I wouldn't call it classism, but I would acknowledge it as bigotry. Can you see the fine line there?

This thread gets more and more interesting as we progress. I always find these discussions around privelege fascinating. Kara

I'm not sure believing in reverse racism is the point here. It's not like I have brought a theoretical matter to the discussion: I'm talking about a real event. The actuality of the situation, as I see it, speaks for itself. You may call it bigotry, but the reality of the situation was something else entirely.

How was race NOT involved? That's the question I have asked myself. It was not simply a matter of homophobia. It was, in fact, the reaction of a few who saw my husband as the WHITE MAN. A stand-in for all the former crimes of all white people.

Isn't bigotry the when a person holds a view about a subject or persons despite evidence to the contrary? And what is racism? A reaction against, or a fear or hatred of a class of persons because of their physical characteristics? In this case, my husband's very whiteness. Truth is: a few in this congregation wanted a black organist. But guess what? They couldn't find one. So what did they do? They took their prejudices out on my husband. Instead of working to support and foster members of their own race to serve them, they instead chose to take their frustration out on the one white man who would. And he wasn't the first white person that was attacked either- this church has a long history of a revolving door as far as their musician's were concerned.

There was definitely a 'power' component involved. A small faction made life hell for my husband. Did they prevail? No. But did others in the church stand up for my guy? Hardly. In the end, he had to defend himself- no one really stood up for him. He was the one who had to take the bull by the horns. The leadership didn't want to deal with the issue until pushed to do so: I call that passive racism.

If it looks like race, smells like race, and acts like the race card is being played- I say that is it race and not merely a fit of bigotry.

And again- and mentioned in my former post- this is something as liberals we are not supposed to talk about or address. There is a view which supposes that blacks, because they historically have not had power, cannot be racist. Well. That simply isn't so. Not from what I have seen.

It may not be polite to point this out. But it is true nevertheless.

Kara- we don't have to agree about this, but living through the experience of what unfolded went waaaaay beyong bigotry. My man had to defend himself in front of the vestry because of the animus of two members of his choir. He prevailed against them and their groupies, and then started looking for another position, eventually finding one in a predominately black congregation which is pastored by a white gay man who serves at the altar with his partner.

It's the first place in a long string of places where he now feels welcomed. And is indeed welcomed.

[nmwolfboy]

Oi, Kara & Daniel, your exchanges poke at my sore spots. But the discussion is important, though perhaps veering a bit off topic in this particular thread.

My life has included some opportunities & experiences relating to race that i find alot of other Anglos (i live in New Mexico - we're Anglos here, not whites) have not had. From reading Kara's posts over the past couple of years, i believe Kara has had similar opportunities and experiences, and that has yielded the perspective from which she speaks.

Daniel, i read what you've written about your husband's experience at that particular church, and i'm saddened by what he encountered there. How wonderful that he was able to weather it so well, and subsequently has found a place where he is genuinely welcomed.

i really liked the phase "uncooked stuff" that Daniel used up-thread. When discussing racism, heterosexism, straight/white privilege, misogyny, etc., a phrase like that communicates something that other, "ism & schism" loaded words are not able to. What i call racism may differ from what Daniel means when he uses the word. Or when Kara uses the word. We may use different words to talk about the same things. We all season our 'uncooked stuff' a little differently.

What's likely really important is that we have the discussion, in a genuine way. That's what i think has been missing for so long in American discourse, especially in regard to racism, but also with respect to misogyny. And faith/religion.

i admit i initially reacted defensively to the up-thread use of the term "reverse racism". Not because is doesn't exist, because the phenomenon it's supposed to describe does, though i agree with Kara that its actual occurrence is rare, especially in comparison with how often i've heard the phrase bandied about in my life. No, i reacted badly to that phrase's use because in my lived experience, i've heard that particular phrase used way more often to justify bigotry on the part of another Anglo than i've heard it to describe the kind of phenomenon that Daniel's husband experienced.

this is something as liberals we are not supposed to talk about or address. There is a view which supposes that blacks, because they historically have not had power, cannot be racist. Well. That simply isn't so. Not from what I have seen.

It may not be polite to point this out. But it is true nevertheless.

i'm glad you brought this up, Daniel. i've heard it many times before, from people regardless of their race. For me, the idea that people of color cannot be racist is an idea that presupposes that everyone understands we're talking about institutional racism. In that sense, it's mostly true that in the USA, people of color cannot be racist. Certainly not historically, and not to the extent that Anglos have been and continue to be agents of racism. People of color have not been in positions of power over banks, schools, churches, or other institutions that are supposed to serve the common weal.

Where people of color have created their own versions of these institutions, (like lgbt people created MCCs) it is not uncommon to see the same paradigm of bigotry reflected from the power-dominant group. We humans do seem to like our hierarchies, and those only seem to work when we have an easily identifiable scapegoat upon which to project our angst. Sometimes our projections are based on race, sometimes on gender, sometimes on class, affectional persuasion, ability/disability, etc.

Daniel, i think what your husband experienced meets the definition of racism, pure and simple. Just because outside of those particular church doors, both the actively and passively bigoted church members don't qualify as 'opressors' in the larger picture of American society's continuing racism, certainly doesn't excuse their actions. I think that larger reality makes their unfair projection onto your man potentially more understandable, but not excusable. Call it what it was - racism on the part of the power structure of that particular institution. To my ears, using the phrase 'reverse racism' most often has the effect of continuing the splintering of our shared experience. It so often (again maybe just to my ears) underscores the us vs. them, eye for an eye kind of hogwash that gets us all nowhere.

i don't think i have any conclusion or clear point for this post. i just had to add my $0.02. :o

Pax, :dove:
scott

[FatherAlbert]

My dear Alecto,

You have truly saved me from despairing about my seemingly lack of understanding or empathy for the need for the GLBT community to find a haven, a safe place to be. My anger is directed against those who discriminate on any level. As I have previously stated, I am still a "Don Quixote" after all these years. Yes, I am the cock-eyed optimist who really , really believes that one person can begin the changes process.

Kara, I understand now what I can never truly or completely understand that it means to be GLBT. However, I can empathize with those who are. Many of my friends are gay and/or transgendered because they are good people, thoughtful people, and people who celebrate their differences as part of their wholeness. Yes, I know now that I am privileged as a member of that "white, male, heterosexual group. I've just never felt that privilege because of the way I've been treated by that grouping. So, now I can move one and do what you suggested: keep working on the heterosexual population, as well as addressing the powerful and entitled male population. I have all the documentation and the information and the resources to address both of those groups. And I have been for many more years than I care to recall!

A miracle has happened. Yesterday while I was feeling really down by the way people perceived me (arrogant, pontificating, etc.). However, I know who I am and am most comfortable in my skin. I have changed myself to be the person I now embrace and accept. It has only taken more than fifty years for me to begin liking myself. That small part of being GLBT (learning to like and accept oneself as God me you) I fully understand. All the other ramifications of being anathema to the vast majority of humanity, I can only empathize with. Anyway, yesterday I received in the mail, a newsletter announcing the National Conference of Call to Action which is taking place in Milwaukee November 7-9. One of the seminars is entitled: Next Steps: Developing Catholic Lesbian/Gay Ministry Programs led by Jeannine Gramick and Frank DeBernardo. Please indulge my quoting the essence of the seminar as proposed: "How can Catholic communities respond to the gifts, needs, and life experiences of l/g people and their families? How can we build bridges to those who feel alienated and ostracized because of sexual orientation? Presentations, personal reflection, dialogue, and planning exercises are used to teach us that l/g ministry is not 'one size fits all,' but calls us to make ministry choices for our setting. A Loretto Sister, Gramick co-founded New Ways Ministry in 1977, and despite a recent Vatican ban, continues pastoral work with l/g persons. DeBernardo is Director of New Ways since 1996, conducts programs nationally, keynoted the religion-homosexuality conference at the first World Pride celebration in Rome in 2000." I have never heard of Call to Action before this piece of mail arrived. I shall try to attend even though I am like Kara and so many others of us not financially solvent. Yes, Kara, living in Naples has required a great deal of effort on my part not to be constantly angry at the great wealth here. This is where Mr. Bush spent time on Friday raising money for two brother representatives who are running for re-election serving Miami and part of Collier county (not ours, thank God!) I'm learning to accept the fact that power and wealth lead to more power and wealth and that the rest of us feed into that power and wealth by the choices we make. I try to use humor to repress the anger (and refrain from judgment) that I feel. One of my favorite jokes is that the very wealthy suffer from rich people's disease: short arms and deep pockets. I need to learn to really love them as much as I do all the rest of us. But that is my cross. And I'll long remember your lesson, Kara. The only one you can change is yourself. Do you know how difficult that lesson is for "Don Quixote?"

For now, I leave you with all love and blessings of the Christ I try to serve.

Albert

[andrewlittle]

... for now, I will sy one thing and then nurse my aching head.

This conversation - with its twists and turns, with its disagreements and the ways it has highlighted the limitations of languages, with the frustrations that have been obviously raised in some of those participating - this conversation has enriched me greatly. It has called me to think, rethink and reflect on things I hold dear and thought I knew. I, for one, really like it when that happens.

Thank you Fr Albert, Kara, Daniel, Alecto, et al for the privilege of engaging with you - this is the stuff of growth.

[kara speltz]

Dearest Friends: What an amazing thread this is! So much "uncooked stuff," as Daniel calls it. And so much real soul searching for answers, that I got more from reading the responses this morning than I got at Mass!!!!

Albert, I was blown away by your response. Thank you. I suspect Alecto was the stepping stone, when he acknowledged what we all felt but failed to express. No one here thought you were coming from an insincere place. We just failed to acknowledge that and for that I'm deeply sorry.

It's truly amazing what happens when we first validate each other before we digress into where we disagree. I somehow need to keep relearning that, unfortunately.

I'm so grateful for these forums and these in depth discussions that challenge us all to move out of our comfort zones and embrace the "illusional" other.

Kara

[Daniel]

Dearest Friends: What an amazing thread this is! So much "uncooked stuff," as Daniel calls it. And so much real soul searching for answers, that I got more from reading the responses this morning than I got at Mass!!!!

Albert, I was blown away by your response. Thank you. I suspect Alecto was the stepping stone, when he acknowledged what we all felt but failed to express. No one here thought you were coming from an insincere place. We just failed to acknowledge that and for that I'm deeply sorry.

It's truly amazing what happens when we first validate each other before we digress into where we disagree. I somehow need to keep relearning that, unfortunately.

I'm so grateful for these forums and these in depth discussions that challenge us all to move out of our comfort zones and embrace the "illusional" other.

Kara

But don't know it? :D:rolleyes::lol::eek:

Kara- I adore you. Thank you Wolfboy for putting matters into perpective. And Alecto for your introducting the matter of semantics and making me think about the matter, even though we may not eye see eye to eye. And thank you Fr. Albert for getting this conversation going- though I must ask your pardon for taking the theme somewhat astray. And Andy- like I've said to you before: I want you with me in a dark alley!


Fr. Albert- Like Kara, I was blown away by your response. Your taking action- in whatever way you can- well- what can I say? That's the whole point of this forum. You really are among friends. No doubt about that. Looking forward to more discussions.

Re "uncooked stuff". I must give credit where credit is due. I think the phrase came from the woman who was a counselor to me and who taught me to meditate many years ago. Ginger Grancagnolo. Great person with soul, warmth and Presence.

[FatherAlbert]

To all who have contributed to this thread whether by responding or just by reading:

The Spirit will lead us home! Such joy in my heart at the deep feeling that I have found a safe place where I can be who I am! Praise God; thank you, Jesus!

I want everyone to know that because I am a priest in a very small independent Catholic post-denomination fellowship (that's a mouthful!, I am very isolated. I don't have a church, I don't receive compensation for my services (both as a UCC priest and a Benedictine who has taken a vow of poverty, I am an outsider wherever I go. And that's OK most of the time. However, sometimes I become very lonely because I want so much to celebrate the Eucharist with my Episcopalian brother and sisters or with any group that is "catholic." This is not the thread to discuss catholicism except to maybe explain that we believe in the Triune God, the seven sacraments which are more than symbols, and the real presence of Jesus Christ in the bread and wine of the Eucharist. That's where our catholicism begins and ends. All are welcome at the table; I never even say before Communion that all baptized Christians are welcome. Anyone who feels the need or desire to communicate is fully welcomed. You all do understand that if I were to advertise in a newspaper my home Eucharistic service as The Catholic Community of the Good Shepherd, the Roman Catholic archdiocese of Southwest Florida would haul me into court for using the word "Catholic" in the name of my church community. It has already happened in other places; the one I am familiar with is Miami. The Roman Catholic church believes that it only has the right to use the word "Catholic." I so admire Kara who like my hero, Joan Chittester, stays with a church whose politics is so unchristian (that's my opinion, folks.)

Because of this thread and my feeling safe here, I am going to call my friends, Doug and Frank, and discuss the MCC Naples experience I had. I was asked what was negative about my attendance at that one service. I'll try to explain my personal reaction as someone who has become a senior citizen and is still as naïve as a babe in the woods. The pastor gave a wonderful homily (sermon) about giving: giving of oneself, giving to each other, and giving the church a chance to grow by publicizing and talking about their wonderful inclusive community. The pastor is a gifted preacher and teacher. After the service I spoke with him, explained who I was and what I was about and told him that I would like to share some ideas about growing the church. I sent an email two weeks ago about meeting and getting to know one another. I also told him that I could be a good support because I am not allowed to take any monies for the services I offer. I was thinking that I might be invited to celebrate the Eucharistic liturgy when the pastor was ways or need a break or whatever. I have presided at liturgy at Integrity meetings and was warmly received, especially by Doug and Frank. We have a really good rapport and have provided me with moral support since my first meeting with Integrity. Remember, I am not an Episcopalian so technically I cannot be a member of Integrity.

I guess that's a real sore spot for me: being an outsider and very isolated from my UCC clergy brothers and sisters. We meet only once a year and have contact through our emails and telephone calls. Our presiding bishop is a wonderful woman who fully understands me and my problems with always being a fifth wheel wherever I go. She reassures me that we are the advance guard, preparing the way and serving in whatever capacity we can in whatever faith community will accept our services.

Because of my passion and enthusiasm for my calling to serve, I do become discouraged at the many closed doors I try unsuccessfully to pry open. Remember, I am a newly ordained priest (two years) and come to priesthood through a near death experience after surgery six years ago this July 20. My experience with Jesus was one that transcends any human experience anyone can ever imagine. And so at the age of 64 I began the calling that has been stalking me since I was seven years old.

I go on, but at least I'm in the "faith" area, am I not? As long as I have found a home, a safe place to be who I am and remain among friends whom I need to teach me and love me with that love that Jesus commands of us, I will continue my journey with a smile on my face and sunrise and love in my heart at sunset.

P.S. Daniel- I too meditate; I follow the way of centering prayer which is very much like meditation in the Buddhist tradition and other traditions of the East. Morning and night I spend twenty minutes centering. Without that special time with God, I would not be able to be the optimist, the "Don Quixote" that I have learned to accept about myself.

All love and blessings, my friends. Let the discussion continue! May Love rule the world through our influence on all the naysayers.

Albert

[nmwolfboy]

Re "uncooked stuff". I must give credit where credit is due. I think the phrase came from the woman who was a counselor to me and who taught me to meditate many years ago. Ginger Grancagnolo. Great person with soul, warmth and Presence.

Ah, but it was you who introduced the phrase to me. Thank you. :love:

Fr. Albert, by starting this thread and continuing your participation here you help to renew my hope that the Kingdom/Queendom of God is always at hand!

Everyone else, this thread is amazing. There's no way i can adequately express how much the SF forum participants challenge me to grow in unexpected ways. :weee:

Pax, :dove:
scott

[kara speltz]

Dear Albert: I'm sure you're going to enjoy the Call to Action gathering. They are an amazingly open group of people. I've only personally attended one of their conferences, but it was awesome.

As for New Ways, while they do excellent work, I'm saddened that they continue to refuse to expand their ministry to bisexual and transgender people. I've spoken with Jeanine Grammick about this and her response was that it wasn't in their mission statement. I spoke at the New Ways conference pleading with them to recognize that it was transgenders who first fought at Stonewall and the need to expand their understanding.

In terms of the MCC pastor who was so ungracious, I'd suggest checking out a couple others to see if there is a pastor who might truly be grateful for your assistance. As I said, MCC's are very different from place to place.

I stay in the RC, because of my own parish, which is absolutely phenominal. I have been involved in ministry in this parish for over 20 years. We've celebrated a Gay Pride Mass every June for the last 11 years.

The bishop of our diocese, is not happy with us, and pointedly said to me that our parish had made a huge mistake in including bisexual and transgender people, continuing "we will never accept them."

I tried to help him understand, by reminding him of the early civil rights work within the Catholic Church and the Catholic Interracial Conferences. We white folks were only comfortable with those blacks who had fully assimilated into our culture. But ultimately we had to recognize that our discomfort was our problem, not someone elses.

I explained to him that 10 years ago, I also was uncomfortable around Ts and that I had to consciously work on that. I'm sure it had no effect on him, but I will keep trying.

You are not alone. Somewhere you will find a place for ministry, probably when you least expect it. Our God is a God of surprises, trust Her.

Kara

[Daniel]

It is good to hear more of your journey- thank you.

I am sorry to hear that you were not fully welcomed at MCC, that is, as you wanted to be. As as Kara has noted, I would seek out other places- surely you will find your niche- or it will find you. ;)

What you bring up, without exactly stating it, I believe, is the problems encountered when lineage, power, validation and recognition become involved.

We do live in a world that relies heavily on outside sources for recognition. We seek it, and demand it of others. In my own field, it is not enough- as it was when I was in graduate school- to have a Master's degree to teach college. Now- one must have a doctorate. Thus- I have seen the ramping up of requirments and such. Ultimately, it is somewhat life-draining to jump through so many hoops. It can become more about jumping through them than anything else.

I don't know if the recognition of your status as a priest has been an issue for others, but I can imagine it being so, especially in the mainline church community. You say yourself that you are not able to take communion at various places.

Perhaps I don't understand the dynamics involved, but that seems a very strange thing: all the Episcopal churches I have attended and sung in the last 15 years or so haven't make this an issue. But then, I do not wear a collar as you do, which implies something altogether different.

Outsider Status. That is what I hear you invoking and talking about. And those of us here can identify with that. That is part and parcel of the experience of being GLBT. It becomes more intense in communities of faith, especially those which are conservative.

Centering Prayer: my sense is that we speak the same language, though the outward form may seem different. Inwardly, we are journeying that same road- going within using the same means that all who succeed in doing so do- through attention to simple things like breath and the heart.

How does one include everyone? (the title of this thread!) I would say by the very means you are using. That is, by keeping your heart open and 'centered'.

May you have much peace.

[andrewlittle]

To all who have contributed to this thread whether by responding or just by reading:

The Spirit will lead us home! Such joy in my heart at the deep feeling that I have found a safe place where I can be who I am! Praise God; thank you, Jesus!

Amen and Amen, Fr Albert.

I want everyone to know that because I am a priest in a very small independent Catholic post-denomination fellowship (that's a mouthful!, I am very isolated. I don't have a church, I don't receive compensation for my services (both as a UCC priest and a Benedictine who has taken a vow of poverty, I am an outsider wherever I go. And that's OK most of the time. However, sometimes I become very lonely because I want so much to celebrate the Eucharist with my Episcopalian brother and sisters or with any group that is "catholic." ...

You share a great deal with my wife, Jenna. I won't tell her story, since it is hers, but I will say that she is truly a pastor at heart, has been rejected by the UMC because of her feminist and LGBT advocacy, and feels at sea, lonely and an outsider when it comes to living into the call God has placed on her life. She will be being ordained into a Methodist "movement" in the near future - a movement that sounds remarkably like a protestant version of your UCC.

Because I care so deeply for Jenna and how she feels as a minister without a church, I can also care deeply for you. Just as I trust that God's call on Jenna leads her to being the pastor God intends, even without a church, I trust the same for you - you are a pastor and you are doing God's will and work.

I pray that you will find the community that is such an important part of the church in the world. In the meantime, and even after you have found it, I think you ca rely on us here to be your virtual community. It may not be as physical, but from my experience I will tell you that it is powerful.

Because of this thread and my feeling safe here ...

Once more - Amen and Amen.

I guess that's a real sore spot for me: being an outsider and very isolated from my UCC clergy brothers and sisters. We meet only once a year and have contact through our emails and telephone calls. Our presiding bishop is a wonderful woman who fully understands me and my problems with always being a fifth wheel wherever I go. She reassures me that we are the advance guard, preparing the way and serving in whatever capacity we can in whatever faith community will accept our services.

Because of my passion and enthusiasm for my calling to serve, I do become discouraged at the many closed doors I try unsuccessfully to pry open. Remember, I am a newly ordained priest (two years) and come to priesthood through a near death experience after surgery six years ago this July 20. My experience with Jesus was one that transcends any human experience anyone can ever imagine. And so at the age of 64 I began the calling that has been stalking me since I was seven years old.

And through your courage to self-disclose, I find yet more affinity with you.

I was ordained in November in the PC(USA). My "near death" experience was a failed suicide 12 years ago, after which God changed my life completely. I entered seminary at 47, and graduated at 52.

"Prying doors open" adequately describes why I chose to remain in the PC(USA) as opposed to going with a more open and affirming denomination. It is difficult and discouraging at times, but then I don't have to pry the doors just to be accepted myself. It has to be just that much more difficult in your situation. I will keep you in my prayers, Fr Albert.

I go on, but at least I'm in the "faith" area, am I not? As long as I have found a home, a safe place to be who I am and remain among friends whom I need to teach me and love me with that love that Jesus commands of us, I will continue my journey with a smile on my face and sunrise and love in my heart at sunset.

Many of us here "go on" - it how we process and learn and grow. Pray do "go on". "Home", "safe place" and "friends" are words that describe this place for me - I hope they become even more descriptive of your experience here.

We sometimes disagee - actually, we many times try to disagree since it gives us fodder for growth - but generally we try to do it lovingly. We fail that test, occasionally, and usually ask forgiveness, offer the olive branch and kiss and make up. It's just like family in a lot of ways, complete with the occasional dysfunction.

Welcome to the family, Fr Albert. Can I consider you my brother?

As to your initial question on this thread, like others have said, it happens slowly with efforts just like this. We may chomp at the bit for instant change - and rightly so - but every journey is made up of those small, single steps towards what ought to be. If we can accompnay ech other on the journey, then so much the better - but we always go hand in hand with God.

So, Don Quixote, keep striving against those windmills. Some may think you're just crazy, but the world never changes except by the efforts of those willing to look a little off. Praise God - we have found each other on the journey.

[BishopIoan]

I really don't see angry people on this thread, just people who know what it is like to be queer in America. We were pointing out that heterosexual privilege is implied and you are so used to it that you don't notice it.

A little experiment might be enlightening. See if a male friend will pretend to be gay...nothing much--just holding hands in public. I guarantee you that you will be made aware that until now you hae been living under the assumption that everyone is heterosexual and the privilege which flows from that assumption.

[FatherAlbert]

Each and every one of us who is born into this world is unique with unique experiences in life. Then there is the layer of perception added to the uniqueness of the individual and the uniqueness of the perceptions (interpretation, if you will). I need to be somewhat abstract in my response because of the privacy issues around what I am about to reveal.

My best friend is a gay man who is leading a heterosexual life and has been for 38 years. I never hesitate to take his hand or to embrace him in public places; and yes, people do look askance and make those faces they do and those comments that are hurtful. So what! I truly understand the privileges I have as a heterosexual white male. However, I also feel deeply the hurt and sorrow of my friend who live a life unfulfilled by choice.

The reason I am here in this discussion is to learn- to learn how to make life better for my friend and for all my brothers and sisters. I spend hours and hours with my friend as he unburdens himself of his guilt at living a lie in order to conform to the particular religious institution to which his wife is committed. I do no want to say too much other than to establish myself as an advocate for all who deal with their sexual orientation or their sexual identity in a hostile environment every day. I constantly affirm my friend's feelings when he tells me that even after all these years he is physically attracted to men. I can only tell him that what does he expect to feel: he is a gay man. All the praying in the world to that strange God that he follows is not going to change who he is or who I am. I love him deeply and tell him constantly that he is the best person I have ever known. Do I feel pain and anguish for him and all the brothers and sisters who find themselves in that position? I hope you know the answer to that question.

To all those who have given me support and hope to continue this discussion around "faith and non-violence" I thank you and bless you for helping my journey to continue. To Andrew and Daniel and Kara- please continue to guide me and to encourage me. I have shared only a small portion of my story and what makes my calling to serve so difficult at times. I must tell you that your prayers and good thoughts have lifted me up tremendously. I once again know that Jesus is holding my hand and sometimes carrying me along when the going gets too rough. I am out of the dark place that wants to gobble me up and separate from the God Who is always present. She never leaves me; it is I who abandon Her.

I've spent two days reading a book called "The Shack" by William P. Young.
My friend and his wife gave it to me for my birthday. He read it and assured me that it would be reaffirming of so many of the things about faith and God that I have been telling him for the past seven years. Well, I read the entire book in two days: I laughed, I wept, I smiled, I went through the entire gamut of human emotions. I was emptied and then filled up. I think that many in this thread will enjoy and also revel in the depth that this book brings to our belief system and helt us to change the way we think of God. I'll share one piece with you: in the book the God whom the main character encounters is an Afro-American woman! That should pique your curiosity. The book is categorized as a novel, but is much more than that. It's an allegory or extended parable or something much more than just a novel.

I've got so much to catch up on now that I've spent two days digesting this wonderful book! I'll not forget to post when I come up with other thoughts or suggestions to consider along our way back to wherever we came from! I have been to that place, if only for seconds; and believe me, it's great and awesome and more than we can imagine. You'll find some of that in the book, too!

Love and all blessings to my brothers and sisters whoever you are, wherever you are.
Albert

P.S. I would love us to share things we read what enhance our understanding and encourage us to make change without violence. I especially would like to do more reading in Eastern thought; my knowledge is limited mostly to the Buddhist tradition.

[Daniel]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/24/books/24shack.html?_r=1&scp=2&sq=the+shack&st=nyt&oref=slogin


Fr. Albert- you might find the link above interesting reading- a recent article on the book you just read. It's a surprise best-seller. And interestingly, some conservatives aren't too happy with the character of God, but we knew that already, didn't we? ;)

It' saddends me to know that your close friend has been closeted for a very long time. My own sense of things, or rather my observation in this kind of situation, tells me that there is very little that you can do for your friend other than what you are doing already: being a good friend. Being in the closest as long as he has- makng the compromised he has made- is not something that is easily changed. Yes- I am sure he is unhappy in a very deep way- regardless of his love for his wife: sexual fulfillment in relationship is a need, just like food, and the man has been starving himself as well as his wife - it should be noted. Part of him is 'not present'- I would think. He has desires which go unfulfilled and realized. The result? I can imagine introversion and depression.

I think several things keep your friend in the situation he is in: habit (easier to keep doing what one is doing); theological and spiritual ignorance (he may not experience himself -as yet- as a having desires that are holy and good); community pressure- the longer one waits to come out the harder it can become- especially if one is invested in a conservative community of faith. Coming out in those circumstance often means loosing everything. And for a man well past his 50's, this can be devestating. It's not like one is 30 and can easily fit into the stream where finding another man to love is an easy matter. One can feel as though one's options are narrower as one ages.

Now I broach a very senstive matter Father. Do you have same-sex feelings yourself? And are you attracted to his man?

(I am not known for holding back!)

If so, then this complicates the matter considerably. Not only for you, but for him.

Some things must be said so that they can be dealt with- that is- if one wants to live a life unburdened by one's own oppression, much less the oppressive thoughts of others. One must first deal with one's own thoughts before that of others.

Ok. I could be barking up the wrong tree. Please feel free to bark back! :D

The clue:


All the praying in the world to that strange God that he follows is not going to change who he is or who I am.

[FatherAlbert]

Dear Daniel,

I'm so pleased that you feel free enough to ask what you believe is a sensitive question. No, I don't have sexual feelings or an attraction to D-, but I am as some of you have already guessed and sort of said I am an odd duck. I not a very sexual person; I never have been. I've been sexually intimate with only one woman, my wife. We had a very fulfilling sexual relationship when we were younger. Now we are both celibate by choice, still enjoying the intimacy that a committed relationship brings.

My friend D- is not attracted to me in a sexual way. We do share all our thoughts and feelings and I make every attempt to convince him that he is turning from God by denying the person who he is. He is also not being fair to his wife who has forsaken a sexual relationship for these many years. I'm not saying that in earlier days there wasn't a sexual relationship outside the marriage on both parts. However, D-'s wife has found a congregation which is locked into a very literal sense of the Scripture. She feels it is a way to keep D- from straying. D- and I have discussed this openly. He feels that now as a senior citizen his sex drive is waning and that he will less and less have those yearnings for an authentic and complete relationship with another man.

This is very difficult for me because I truly love D-. I love his openness with me, his support of myself and my wife emotionally; his goodness and his acceptance of all the differences in people that I accept. He is in a very dark place much of the time because both my wife and I love D- as he is and are pained that he has spent a lifetime trying to be happy and closeted at the same time. It doesn't work.

I have been queer all my life in a different way. I never fit into any of the categories that the ordinary folk seemed to find fulfilling. I have a passion for good music and became an accomplished pianist. I love art and have done some very good oils over the years. I write poetry. I love dance and theatre. Maybe that is why I connect so easily to the GLBT community and why we have so many friends that are wired that way. Giftedness in the arts seems to be very much connected with sexual orientation. I have come to accept myself as God made me, an oddball and a little (a lot!) off the path that most people follow.

It took a long time and years of strategizing around my deep depression and finally a breakdown which sent me into years of psychotherapy. The Spirit led me to good people for therapy who helped me to like myself as I am and to teach me that performance and accomplishment have nothing to do with who a person is. (I'm ashamed to say that I have a bachelor's, three master's, and a doctoral degree.) After many years I realized that I was trying to gain my mother's love through academic accomplishments which she valued highly, or, at least, to get her to say aloud the words, "I love you." When she became a victim of Alzheimer's, I had to deal with that lost opportunity. Instead, I came to realize that each one of us does her/his best in our role as parent, child, friend, etc. That's all we can expect. My world opened up and I developed a much deeper relationship with the God Whom I love. And I know(with a lot of help from my partner, my wife) that my mother loved me very much. Funny how she could tell her daughter-in-law but not her son.

Yes, Daniel, "The Shack" is a book that forces one to think on a totally different plane. It is definitely theologically challenging. I must tell you that I love John Shelby Spong and am always open to question traditional belief. The time has come in the process of human evolution to re-evaluate and re-think much of what we learned was absolute truth. Thank you for reminding me that there are lots of people who still are in that locked box where they are not allowed to question, and if they do, they are mocked, excommunicated, or even in the case of one, Jesus, crucified for daring to question the prevailing thought of the day.

I hope that I am not baring too much and that I'm not boring the members of our thread with useless information. But, again, that's me. What you see is what you get-- no apologies.

Love and blessings to all my brother and sisters. Let's continue to open the doors and windows and let the fresh air in! How good God is!

Albert

[Daniel]

You answered my second question and skipped over the first, which was, do you have same-sex feelings? Perhaps I should have asked "Have you ever had same-sex feelings for other men- any man?"

I understand all about being a queer duck as well as your interest in the arts. I have those interests as well which gives one something of an 'outsider' status. Being gay only ups the ante.

This queer duck wanted to be a classical dancer as a child. Then an artist as well as a superhero. Actually I should amend that statement: at the age of 8 or 9 I found myself quite attracted to Aquaman- the cartoon- that is. Many an early Saturday morning with my head pressed inched away from the TV set with the sound turned waaaay down so I didn't get 'caught'. Even then, without being told, I knew that my feelings for that blond hunk man on the screen- the image of which made my feel like a vibrating tuning fork- were verboten.

I don't doubt a word of your statement, but you do seem rather shy in the self-disclosure department, which, I have to say, is actually Ok. You can say- or not say- whatever you want. That said- you will find me a open book. I think it's a better way to live- and love.

Pardon the interest. but I do have a curious mind. You can answer as you choose to. :)

Namaste,

Daniel

[FatherAlbert]

Dear Daniel,

Yea, I'm a skipper! Not intentionally; it's just a function of getting older. I don't think that I have ever had same-sex feelings. I guess that sounds stupid; but I was so repressed as a child that anything might have been possible. I do know that in the Army men were attracted to me sexually. A good friend in my barracks told me to watch out because there were some aggressive guys in our holding company that might come on strong. I was somewhat effeminate and "soft". I had been often labeled a "fairy" or queer boy" in adolescence. However, I was never physically aroused by another male and was very much aroused by females. Since I was a virgin until I married at age 30, I guess that maybe I fall in some other category if one exists. The whole idea of physical intimacy was difficult for me to deal with until I met and fell in love with my wife. I had no problem with any sexual activity with her and we were extremely active during our first years of marriage. I guess all the repression on both our parts opened up a dam when we finally connected. I find this discussion a little embarassing even now. I need to tell you all that I still have difficulty displaying affection in public and am scandalized by anything that resembles real sensuality in public, whether hetero- or homo-sexual. Holding hands and a peck on the cheek are fine but when I see groping and French kissing in a public place I get a little crazy. Guilt and repression are part of my Roman Catholic and Anglo background. I realize that and try to be a little less reactionary these days when everything is much more open.

I hope that helps to answer your question. If not, do keep prodding me. I'll get there yet. I kind of think that sexuality is a very complex part of human beings. And feeling good about one's sexual orientation and identity are absolutely critical to living a satisfying and fulfilled life. About that I do feel good. As I have said before (I think) it has taken me a long, long time to learn to love myself and to accept God's unconditional love for me just as I am. I have many qualities and strengths that traditionally are reserved for females in this culture. I now embrace that side of me and actually appreciate those virtues. Compassion, empathy, intuition, psychic ability are some of the qualities that are mine. I am not tough and find it impossible to keep a stiff upper lip when I feel that shedding tears is what I need to do.

Love and blessings
Albert

[Daniel]

Those of us- myself included- who grew up (I as an adolescent) in Fundamentalist or Conservative circles- can identify with your statement about not having much feelings in the sexuality department one way or another until later in life.

Case in point: the story I told about my childhood was somthing that I remembered after I came out at the age of 28. Between 8 and 28 I was one closted fellow- to myself and others. And I feel compassion for that young man. I could have been dating men my age in my 20's. As it is, men are now marrying one another in their 20's- something inconceivable before the last few years.

Not letting love into one's life- I believe- takes a massive toll on one's psychology- and even- in some cases- one's health. The energy wants to go somewhere after all. And if it is pushed down and out of sight....well...very often there is hell to pay.

I am glad that you have had love in your life. That's a wonderful thing. Know what? My sense is that you have what gay men have been noted as having (which has been substantiated via recent research), that is to say-a female brain.

Intuition. Empathy. Psychic abilty. All thing associated with the right hemisphere. In other words, not logic oriented- left dominant ie your typical straight man who falls asleep at the Ballet!

Would not surprise me to learn that you are left-handed too. ;) Goes with the territory.

Ineresting stuff.

[FatherAlbert]

Thanks, Daniel,

You have described in few words who I am. I am not logic-oriented at all. That also makes me very vulnerable, at some times naïve. How intuitive you are! I am left-handed, completely left-handed. As a child in kindergarten and first grade, I was punished by my teachers, especially in first-grade by Miss Raschdorf who hit me knuckles with her ruler and switched the pencil into my right hand, like I was doing something really bad or "sinister". I'd check to see where she was in the classroom and immediately switch back to my left hand. What a bitch! Lord, forgive her for she knew not what damage she might have caused if I hadn't been stronger than her! In those days, the '40's, being left-handed was thought to be a handicap. Wow, you brought up a lot of feelings I thought had been long buried. Good job!

Keep up the wonderful communication, all my friends out there. By the way, tomorrow is my birthday. I'll be 66 on 6-26. Is there a mark of the devil somewhere in that combination!! Who thought I'd ever live to be that old! Not me, for sure!

Love and blessings,
Albert

[Daniel]

I think I should get a prize or something! Tupperware perhaps? :D

Happy Impending Birthday! Tomorrow that is! I have my own coming up on July 11th. The Big 50! Celebrating Big Time. Hope you have a great time!

You know, while it sounds like we share a good many things- I am left-handed as well- my husband- while a musician- has a male brain if there every was one and is very much right-handed. Logical logcial logical. Oh...the 'gay brain' (as I call it) sneaks out here and there, but the man thinks like a straight man. :lol:

Pray for me! :pray: :lol:

Seriously. I understand the whole 'teacher trying to change one's handedness' thing. Went through that myself. In my case, I was one stubborn little boy. No one was gonna tell me how to use my hand (no cracks from you Steve!). Lucky for me: those were the early years (60's) when teachers started to let students decide for themselves. That said, my teacher encouraged me to use the right. I refused!

I'm not sure that being left-brained makes one naive or vulnerable. Would we use those words to describe the majority of women, who, naturally, have more right-brain use than men? Of course not. Your feelings, if I may posit so, may arise from the circumstances of your life and your upbringing- or lack of it.

That said- those who are overly right-brain oriented can be 'out there', 'spacey' and 'not grounded'. I know that score. Played it for many years- and still work at 'being here now'.

That's why I exercise (go to the gym and weight train) and practice yoga. Gets me into my body and out of my head. You know the logic left-brained folks have the same issue often. They are in their 'heads' but on the other side. Into detail et al. Workaholics etc. They need to feel their bodies too. 'Get grounded' - as they say in human development language.