Equality Ride

[pxlguy]

I have followed along with the Equality Riders as they have made their way across the country. And I have to admit, that, while the cause in and of itself is a noble one, the way this whole activism thing has played out has certainly been somewhat of a disappointment. I also think it makes Soulforce, as the sponsor, as well as the gay community itself look bad. Perhaps a better idea instead of going onto campuses where the riders were not welcome, would have been to have held meetings off the school's campuses in a neutral place. Going onto campuses uninvited, and unwanted, only puts people on the defensive, and makes it harder to a point where positive talks can occur. I am also tired of hearing about these poor "suffering" gay college students in Christian schools. If I were a gay student in one of these colleges, I would be offended by these Equality Riders' approach. I would feel like the riders' in reality are saying that I am too stupid to make an appropriate decision about where I wanted to attend college, and now they are here to "rescue" me from something that I have chosen to do. If gay students are smart enough to go to college, then they are smart enough to figure out the rules and regulations to which they must conform at these christian schools. And if they find that they cannot adhere to the rules, then they should leave. Why should the schools have to change their policies to satisfy students who do not want to follow their guidelines? These are privately-ran campuses, they are NOT publicly funded institutions. I think these schools have every right to conduct their operations as they see fit. And when you start pointing fingers at organizations which base their philosophy on the Christian experience, which is important to many, many people, then you begin to antagonize folks that you are trying to dialog with. Religion can be a strongly divisive, rather than a unifying experience, in confrontational situations. As gay people, we are always encouraging a concept of "acceptance". We should practice what we preach, and be accepting of others who have different viewpoints, and not try to entrench our views on those who do not wish to hear them. Gays should find their own place in society, without tearing down others' views, ideas, and priciples. which may differ from what we think they should. Maybe if the Equality riders would try to be more understanding and tolerant, productive dialog, instead of oppositional force, might occur.

[closetcougar]

I have followed along with the Equality Riders as they have made their way across the country. And I have to admit, that, while the cause in and of itself is a noble one, the way this whole activism thing has played out has certainly been somewhat of a disappointment. I also think it makes Soulforce, as the sponsor, as well as the gay community itself look bad. Perhaps a better idea instead of going onto campuses where the riders were not welcome, would have been to have held meetings off the school's campuses in a neutral place. Going onto campuses uninvited, and unwanted, only puts people on the defensive, and makes it harder to a point where positive talks can occur. I am also tired of hearing about these poor "suffering" gay college students in Christian schools. If I were a gay student in one of these colleges, I would be offended by these Equality Riders' approach. I would feel like the riders' in reality are saying that I am too stupid to make an appropriate decision about where I wanted to attend college, and now they are here to "rescue" me from something that I have chosen to do. If gay students are smart enough to go to college, then they are smart enough to figure out the rules and regulations to which they must conform at these christian schools. And if they find that they cannot adhere to the rules, then they should leave. Why should the schools have to change their policies to satisfy students who do not want to follow their guidelines? These are privately-ran campuses, they are NOT publicly funded institutions. I think these schools have every right to conduct their operations as they see fit. And when you start pointing fingers at organizations which base their philosophy on the Christian experience, which is important to many, many people, then you begin to antagonize folks that you are trying to dialog with. Religion can be a strongly divisive, rather than a unifying experience, in confrontational situations. As gay people, we are always encouraging a concept of "acceptance". We should practice what we preach, and be accepting of others who have different viewpoints, and not try to entrench our views on those who do not wish to hear them. Gays should find their own place in society, without tearing down others' views, ideas, and priciples. which may differ from what we think they should. Maybe if the Equality riders would try to be more understanding and tolerant, productive dialog, instead of oppositional force, might occur.

I totally agree with you....just like the civil rights movement in the 60's :rolleyes: . If we just wait a accept our place in society and be good little boys and girls, then maybe one day we'll be rewarded. I am a gay student at BYU and I do not at all feel the way you hypothesize. I don't feel poor or suffering. I feel empowered to perpetuate the dialogue that SF has generated. I am not too stupid to make a decision and I find this question distracting. The question isn't why did I choose to go to BYU. The question is, why am I not allowed to be at BYU under the same auspices (I don't really know what that word means, but it sounds good) and expectations as my fellow human beings? I earned the right to be at BYU. Period. No excuses as to why I am there and why I don't transfer. I am there for the long haul. There have been thousands of gays who graduated before me and there will be thousands more after me. So the administration can continue to waste money to find the gays and expell them, or they can spend the money on other stuff, like the homeless or a program for the gays who are living lonely celibate lives. From the mouths of BYU students, I didn't hear anything negative about SF, except for the trespassing thing (which SF was completely honest with BYU about; "This is where we'll be. This is what we'll be doing, and this is how many of us there will be").

[Daniel]

...somewhat of a disappointment. I also think it makes Soulforce, as the sponsor, as well as the gay community itself look bad. Going onto campuses uninvited, and unwanted, only puts people on the defensive, and makes it harder to a point where positive talks can occur.

As gay people, we are always encouraging a concept of "acceptance". We should practice what we preach, and be accepting of others who have different viewpoints, and not try to entrench our views on those who do not wish to hear them.

Hello pxiguy,

Your argument is perfectly reasonable, yet reasonable to a fault. If this was the 1930's and the state declared that gay people were sinful and were going to be interred in camps I don't think you would be offering this line of thinking. Yes, it is a different time and place, but I think you are forgetting the matter Soulforce seeks to address.

It's not about gay people accepting others. Oh contraire. If I follow your line of thought to its end, it suggests the 'if we're nice enough they'll be nice to us' thought. Well. Jews thought that in the 1930's before they were sent away. Playing nice doesn't make things nice. It only makes the person thinking such thoughts rather passive.

Now. I hope no one reading this thinks I am comparing Christians to Nazi's. That is not my intention. My point is that intolerance, whereever it is found (and I've used extremes here), is still intolerance.

Soulforces' means and methods are non-violent. That says something in itself. A very active and responsive position. Do the schools they are doing to have the 'right' to discriminate against their gay students? Many would say yes. Others like Soulforce say: why? Just because you have the right to do something doesn't make it right.

[Zerbie]

No. Fascinating.

My intellect puts my current viewpoint somewhere between the two of you, Pxl, and Cougar. My heart is with Cougar and the Riders.

I've said it before and I'll repeat: as passionately as I stand for gay rights and advocacy, I've often disagreed even to the point of anger, with strategies chosen by other gay rights activists. Sometimes activists are downright stupid - not suggesting for a moment that's true of the Riders, just previous encounters. . . Even if we want the same outcome, I've been known to RUN away from some activist groups because their tactics are unnecessarily confrontation and bound to backfire.

To know if the Riders are indeed coming across as hostile as Pxl seems to claim, or not, I would have to be at some of the campus stops with them, and even then my guess is I'd see some folks find hostile what others find inspiring and a great blessing. So the truth probably lies someplace in the middle.

The theory is technically correct that private institutions should have - must have - the right to create membership criteria as they see fit, this including private schools and the students they admit. That changes whenever public funds enter the picture. In theory, I stand with the private institution. In spirit, certainly not, but if I were a judge I would have to put the decision down on the side of the private institution adhering to its own policies.

The trouble lies within the spirit of the policy itself. No, Pxl we don't wish to imply that gay students are "too stupid" to make their own decisions or that they need rescuing. However. When a student in every way earns admission to an institution and the only thing potentially barring them from remaining enrolled til graduation is a policy that prohibits them from engaging in a social process (dating and relationship) which is NOT denied from their heterosexual peers, then it IS discrimination and it is not morally acceptable. All people grow and develop with time, and most if not all of us, can recount stories of how we have had to revise our thought-patterns or our life situations in response to new information. The coming-out process is no different. Especially considering the amount of psycho-social growth one undergoes between the ages of 18 and 22, why on earth should gay students be bound by a code to which they may have agreed when a closeted, conflicted, or not entirely self-aware 18 years old, when they discover themselves to be homosexual at 21 - since said code applies to them ONLY, as gay students, and not to their heterosexual peers?

So, yes, Pxl you're right about many things. Including the letter. I dispute you not one bit. I would "side" with you if so compelled. But the spirit of what is happening here is richer still than you have acknowledged so far.

Oh and - I see this was your first post. Welcome! And what a welcome - gosh, I hope you'll come back again after this.:eek: Please do, these discussions are so important and you obviously have a different perspective to offer. In addition, you and I are geographical neighbors. Howdy, and pleased to make your acquaintance. :cool:

[pxlguy]

Everyone needs to understand that I am in no way implying that the equality riders are on a vindictive or hostile mission--quite the contrary. As I said in my orginal post, I think the idea in and of itself is a good one. The problem I have is with the methodology, not so much in the message itself. yes, I think we can ask the hard questions as to why certain institutions do not allow the openess of gays within their society. But, as I have said, these are PRIVATELY FUNDED institutions, not publicly funded by federal, state, or local governments. Privately funded religious schools go this route so they may teach what they believe in without having the government tell them how and what they must say or do, and the way they do it. Almost everyplce one goes has rules, which must be abided by, in order to be a part of the greater community. I certainly don't think people seeking a college education are "too stupid" to decide where they want to obtain their education, but are rather, smart enough to figure out what they are getting into. But the equality riders are the ones who are saying, repeatedly, that the gay students in these schools are "suffering in silence". They claim to be there to open up these campuses for gays and lesbians, so that these students can be able to be themselves. I don't oppose that. But everyone makes choices in life, and some choices we make, we can have pretty much of an idea what the end result will be. You can use this same logic to look at the situation from another perspective. Assume that straight people come uninvited and unwanted to a gay event where their focus is to try to get gay people to change their lifestyle, and say they are there offering help to the poor, gay captives. Can you imagine the response of the gay community? I know that if I were in this group, I would be very upset and angry that people were invading my space and trying to tell me what i nedd or should do to make my situation better. Most normal people would be upset! And would gay people have a right to be upset? I would think so. However, let me add, that if this were a publicly funded university under the operation of the state, my sentiments would be totally different. I would be the first to not only request, but demand that gays be given equal treatment and consideration. Really, I am more on the side "for" than the side "against", as it were. But I think we need to allow others have their own rules and requlations, and if we choose to affliate ourselves with a particular organization, we should be respectful enough to follow it's rules and guidelines, even if we may disagree. I would not go into someone else's home, and expect them to accomodate my beliefs, especially if they are based on religion. Would you?

[pixeltarian]

I have followed along with the Equality Riders as they have made their way across the country. And I have to admit, that, while the cause in and of itself is a noble one, the way this whole activism thing has played out has certainly been somewhat of a disappointment. I also think it makes Soulforce, as the sponsor, as well as the gay community itself look bad. Perhaps a better idea instead of going onto campuses where the riders were not welcome, would have been to have held meetings off the school's campuses in a neutral place. Going onto campuses uninvited, and unwanted, only puts people on the defensive, and makes it harder to a point where positive talks can occur. I am also tired of hearing about these poor "suffering" gay college students in Christian schools. If I were a gay student in one of these colleges, I would be offended by these Equality Riders' approach. I would feel like the riders' in reality are saying that I am too stupid to make an appropriate decision about where I wanted to attend college, and now they are here to "rescue" me from something that I have chosen to do. If gay students are smart enough to go to college, then they are smart enough to figure out the rules and regulations to which they must conform at these christian schools. And if they find that they cannot adhere to the rules, then they should leave. Why should the schools have to change their policies to satisfy students who do not want to follow their guidelines? These are privately-ran campuses, they are NOT publicly funded institutions. I think these schools have every right to conduct their operations as they see fit. And when you start pointing fingers at organizations which base their philosophy on the Christian experience, which is important to many, many people, then you begin to antagonize folks that you are trying to dialog with. Religion can be a strongly divisive, rather than a unifying experience, in confrontational situations. As gay people, we are always encouraging a concept of "acceptance". We should practice what we preach, and be accepting of others who have different viewpoints, and not try to entrench our views on those who do not wish to hear them. Gays should find their own place in society, without tearing down others' views, ideas, and priciples. which may differ from what we think they should. Maybe if the Equality riders would try to be more understanding and tolerant, productive dialog, instead of oppositional force, might occur.


I couldn't have said it better myself.

[Dash]

No...students are not too stupid to make their choices about college. :) Young people can be very intelligent, informed and methodical about these choices.

Yet...many students go where their parents tell them...or where their parents will help them financially. This is the case with my friend Kim who was sent to Bob Jones University. She was not gay, but endured her time there until the day she could, quite literally, be free. What of the young gay student? What of the student who doesn't realize yet they are gay?

What of the student who has some understanding of their sexuality, but is deeply religious, and still believes that Christian school is a very appropriate option? They enroll in hope, but their internal struggles continue or intensify rather than abate.

For a young 18 year-old (or 17, as I was) those first college choices are not always based on the kind of self-knowledge and resources that you are considering. Quite frankly, I wouldn't have gone to college at all, except that I got a full-ride to a state school based on my academic record. You see how the choices are sometimes made for us?

The fight is not EVER for those who have the power to control their situation, my friends. God is the God of the outcast, the weak, the powerless, and the oppressed, and those are who we as Christians stand up for.

It may not be for ourselves. For everyone of you who were empowered to make these choices...there are others who had none, or whose circumstances changed...or who (yes, it also happens to young people) made a mistake. :love:

[Honestly, I've only known five people who went to religious schools: at Oral Roberts, Bob Jones, Wheaton College, and of course Oklahoma Bible Academy...the parochial high school for Mennonites in Oklahoma (based in my home town for most of the years I grew up...both my brothers went...I did not). I only know them as places that people attend out of coercion or youthful conservatism, and they eventually either regreted the attendance or rejoiced in their escape. ...But that's just my personal experience... and completely anecdotal.]

[MaraJade]

[Honestly, I've only known five people who went to religious schools: at Oral Roberts, Bob Jones, Wheaton College, and of course Oklahoma Bible Academy...the parochial high school for Mennonites in Oklahoma (based in my home town for most of the years I grew up...both my brothers went...I did not). I only know them as places that people attend out of coercion or youthful conservatism, and they eventually either regreted the attendance or rejoiced in their escape. ...But that's just my personal experience... and completely anecdotal.]

hi, I'm new posting here, but I've lurker for a short while. I admit - I attended Wheaton and currently have a love/hate relationship with it. I gained many wonderful things from my experience there, but I have also "grown out of it."

Anyway - this may not be appropiate, but I wanted to post the letter the President of Wheaton sent to alumni about the upcoming equality ride visit -
I write to ask you for your prayers.

On Thursday and Friday of this week we will be visited by a group of homosexual activists traveling on a bus tour across the United States to various Christian college campuses. Their agenda is to draw negative media attention to institutions who maintain an historic biblical stand on the issue of homosexuality. This, of course, Wheaton does. (See Wheaton's Community Covenant) Hence our place on their list of targeted institutions.

We did not invite these visitors to our campus. But since they are intent on coming anyway, we decided to make a virtue out of a necessity by turning their coming into a teaching opportunity for our students. Given the ongoing changes in our culture, today’s students are potentially facing a lifetime of confrontations over the issue of homosexuality. What should be their Christian response? We have endeavored to prepare our students to respond to these visitors with the biblical balance captured in the injunction to “speak the truth in love.”

Wheaton’s provost, Dr. Stan Jones, a psychologist who has done extensive work in the area of human sexuality, has prepared a biblical rebuttal to the false teaching of this group. (See “CACE Resources on Homosexuality”) These and other written materials, along with various scheduled meetings and chapels, have been devoted to helping our students understand the many issues and shape a balanced Christian response. This process has been highly educational for all involved.

After this event is over, we will let you know how it went. In the meantime, please pray for us, asking that God will be glorified, His truth will be upheld with grace and humility, and our Christian witness to a watching world will be an effective one.


Thank you.

Duane Litfin
President
Wheaton College