Article

[Gennee]

A friend of mine send me an interesting article at the website below.

Gennee


http://epistle.us/hbarticles/christiangayethic.html

[wmanion]

Thanks for sharing this article. It was very insightful. I kept it so I can reread it and go over it in detail.

Bill

[labguy22]

Thank you for the link Gennee. The article reflects many of my personal opinions as to how I understand the new testament.
I enjoyed the fact the author states how he met his partner :"I cannot condemn promiscuity in total because I met my partner in a gay meeting place, which at first led to what I thought would be only a one-night stand."
This is exactly how my husband and I met. Who knew after eight years we would now be legally married.

[Pablo Rafael]

Good Article. Thanks, Gennee.
The following caught my attention:

As Father Gregory Baum wrote, “Persons who are constitutionally homosexuals must accept this orientation and live accordingly,” expressing “their sexuality in a manner consonant with Christ’s teaching on love.”
I was recently asked by a Lutheran pastor, "What do YOU think a God-pleasing homosexual relationship would be?" My answer was similar to the above. The idea of love and commitment is what makes a marriage in my opinion.

Conversely, persons with strong gay sexual desires who are told by fundamentalist leaders that they cannot accept these or act on them often become hate-filled homophobes obsessed with “fighting homosexuality” in society and the church, as a way of trying to keep the lid on their own unfulfilled desires. The problem for gay people relating to NT texts that condemn “fornication” (all sex outside of marriage) is that for them heterosexual marriage would be a tragic disaster and sexually unsatisfying for both partners.
Though I would never have considered myself a fundamentalist, nor was I ever extremely homophobic, I was one of those gays who went out of my way to speak against homosexuality. I thought it would keep people from thinking I was gay. Whenever someone is very vocally anti-gay, I suspect him/her of being a closeted gay.

I thought about heterosexual marriage. I am glad that God kept me from that path. I know that with me it would have been a disaster. What a sad thing that people are forced to choose a path that was not what God had ordained for them.

[Emproph]

He really covered the gamut, yet in a very pointed way, and with all the Biblical footnotes to boot. I put that on my favorites for reference.

These were just a couple of things that jumped out for me.

Moreover, these cultural crusaders have done everything in their power in recent years to deny gay people the opportunity and incentives to form lasting relationships that lead to marriage and thus they actually promote promiscuity among gay people and in society at large.

That’s such a cruel irony of the whole situation. Both for those of us who are LGBT and for the followers of the anti-gay leaders, who then become accomplices in perpetuating the very thing they claim to be against. I realize that this isn’t limited to the gay issue, but it’s nice to see this observation once in awhile.

We should live in a manner that above all expresses agapē love, which is self-giving and which cares about others (5:13-14) and which seeks the good of all, especially other believers (6:10). This is nothing less than the Golden Rule. We should daily “crucify the flesh [our fallen nature] with its passions and desires,”

I love the parenthetical clarification of our “flesh” being “our fallen nature.”

Looking back on certain events in my life where I’ve strained to ‘love the other person,’ and then felt regret for not having defended myself, I’ve had glimpses of how I was indeed right to have put the effort into loving them, because it was most inline with the truth (God’s / unconditional love).

The pain was the result of the lack of certitude that I had done the right thing, and NOT because of any sense of loss on my part for not having defended myself more so.

My point being, that to the extent that we ‘strain’ to adhere to the Golden Rule, we literally invalidate original sin itself, or “our fallen nature,” as Gerig puts it.

[paul]

:lol:... sorry


Paul, who sought practical solutions for difficult problems in his churches, along with emphasizing the central message of God’s amazing love and grace, certainly would have advised any gay Christian to try to find another like person with whom to share his or her life, had he known what we know today about homosexual orientation.

This seems rather a leap to me. "Homosexual orientation" has been around since the beginning of time. The Hebrews were shepherds, they probably could have written the article below. I just cannot buy that we in the 21st century are somehow superior in knowledge when it comes to cultural issues. Bias and bigotry has also been around since the beginning of time.


http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn3008-homosexuality-is-biological-suggests-gay-sheep-study.html


Aquinas posited that human beings have a single human nature, and this can be ascertained by observing nature (Aquinas was apparently not a shepherd). Ironically, Aquinas drew on Aristotle's concept of normative nature, and Aristotle was a part of a culture that readily accepted "homosexual orientation." The Roman Catholic Church managed to take what Aquinas wrote and apply it to homosexuality, concluding that homosexuality is sin against nature (apparently they weren't shepherds either).

It's not hard for me to believe or accept that there were authors involved in writing what we now have and call the Bible who were decidedly homophobic, pro slavery, accepted genocide, and considered women second class, and didn't like lobster. And clearly, there were people involved in it's penning that were not any of these.

To me the power of the Bible is in how it exposes people by what passages they choose to espouse, preach and use to control others in "God's" name.

[wmanion]

Paul,
I understand your views though I respectfully disagree. The Jewish culture believed that sex was for procreation purposes while the Greek culture celebrated sexuality as complete pleasure as well as procreation. Homosexual orientation was not really understood at that time, especially, by the culture in which most of the scripture was written. It was associated as many other things as idol worship and connected it to the equivalence of demon possession. Anything outside of the "norm" for the culture was seen as evil. Those will depression, left-handedness and epilepsy were considered possessed. These same out of the "norm" forms of sexuality are still considered ungodly and against human nature in many countries today. I fail to see how culture cannot play a part in the views that many held during the writing of the scriptures. I agree that biases and bigots existed then as they do today, but biases and bigotry is usually a learned trait in mankind. We are not born with biases or bigoted brains. We are taught these by many sources and experiences. I do agree that to support these biases and bigotry that people use a pick and choose method of what they want to believe out of the scripture and disregard what they do not want to believe...such as eating lobster, slavery, women as property, etc. I have always thought of the bible as a giant jigsaw puzzle that you have to put all the pieces in the right place to understand what is really being said and why it is being said. I do believe part of the why is the cultural understanding of that day. If they had a real knowledge of "sexual orientation," I do not think they would have had the views they espoused. Then again, this could just be my view or wishful thinking.

Bill

[paul]

but will you respect me in the morning?

Hiya Bill,

You mean Solomon was just trying to make babies with all those wives :eek:???

While I may not have said it well, my point really is that culture doesn't dictate understanding, though it may often coerce conformity.

I look at my own ultimate acceptance of my sexuality as a case in point. I didn't accept that I'm gay because I was finally convinced of the science, or cultural arguments. After years of believing myself damaged goods, and even possessed because that was what the culture that I was raised in taught me, after years of living and looking at my own particular situation I came to realize I was neither damaged or possessed. Frankly, no one could have told me in a way that could have convinced me, I had to see it for myself. I figure I am far from unique, either in the modern age or the past ages.

This is all pure conjecture on my part, with no basis that I can substantiate. Where you pull your particular information from (thats an honest question with no attitude attached)?

I admit that superstition does seem to have been more prevalent in times past, until I watch t.v. on a Sunday morning :lol:, then I'm not so sure. Have you ordered you healing hankee yet? Where I come from, they still cast out demons of homosexuality (born in America).

[wmanion]

HI Paul,
Of course I will still respect you in the morning (that is when my respect level is at its highest).
I stated at the end of my post that it was of course my view or wishful thinking. But my thoughts come from fundamental teaching, first in a preacher's foster home from 14 to 17, and then a Baptist Bible College that I attended for a year (where I became totally disgusted with what was being taught me). So I jumped out of those Independent Fundamentalists Baptist beliefs into the Assembly of God roasting fire of beliefs, where again I was taught that the main purpose of sex was for procreation, but it was okay to enjoy the pleasure of it within the confines of marriage.
Oh believe me, I went through the homosexual demon casting out but of course it did no good. I never did try the "hanky" though. I could not pray the gay away no matter what I did.
Any I believe you are correct in saying that knowledge doesn't dictate culture but it does help to change culture over time. Look how many years it took to accept the world wasn't flat despite knowledge suggesting otherwise.

Love and lots of respect,
Bill

[paul]

Billiam,

It sounds like you have survived the fundamental education.

I wondered if some of your history didn't come from that. As a fundamentalist, I used to consider the Bible to be history. In my mind, if the bible talked about fire breathing dragons, then there must have been fire breathing dragons back then because the bible said so. That got trickier when trying to validate the sun standing still.

Any I believe you are correct in saying that knowledge doesn't dictate culture but it does help to change culture over time. Look how many years it took to accept the world wasn't flat despite knowledge suggesting otherwise.

We are on the same page with this, I have actually said the same thing to make the same point before. I don't think the bible is a bad book. I think it is full of good stuff, and science has helped good Christians understand that the earth is round and rotates around the sun. Some people use the bible to promote their personal agenda, and from that we get people trying to cast demons out of us gay folk :eek::lol:.

[Pablo Rafael]

To me the power of the Bible is in how it exposes people by what passages they choose to espouse, preach and use to control others in "God's" name.

Paul,
This is an interesting statement. I had never quite thought of things in this way.

I think a key point that all people need to realize when they read and teach the Bible is that all belief is an interpretation of the Bible. No one believes what the Bible says, for the Bible cannot be read literally. We all come to the Bible with our own method of interpretation. How people choose to interpret the Bible and what passages they emphasize does indeed reveal what their mindset and purpose is.

So whose interpretation is the right one? I think only God has it right. The rest of us understand only dimly and in part. To think otherwise shows a religious arrogance.

My approach to the Bible is that is shows the love of God. Every passage of the Bible must be read in that light. Therefore as children of God it is our job to show that love to God and to others. For the more we love, the closer we get to God.

[matthewspeed]

Well, have you heard of the book of St. Pablo? They found these holy scrolls in Egypt recently. But they were so profoundly scandalous,the council that chooses which writings are to be used, have banned these controversial writings!!

I hear that if you took St. Pablos writings "literally," You would need a cold shower after reading this scandulous book!! LOL!

Pablo! I'm ashamed!!


Just a bit of humor guys/gals!!

[paul]

Paul,
So whose interpretation is the right one? I think only God has it right. The rest of us understand only dimly and in part. To think otherwise shows a religious arrogance.

.

Pab,

This sounds close to "knowing in part and seeing in part....seeing through a glass darkly." Which is why love is so important, because we are mostly ignorant otherwise, and yeah, "arrogant." It seems all divisions occur from two people both insisting that they know what God has to say on any given subject. "Knowledge puffeth up, love edifies."

[Pablo Rafael]

Well, have you heard of the book of St. Pablo? They found these holy scrolls in Egypt recently. But they were so profoundly scandalous,the council that chooses which writings are to be used, have banned these controversial writings!!

I hear that if you took St. Pablos writings "literally," You would need a cold shower after reading this scandulous book!! LOL!

Pablo! I'm ashamed!

Matthew,

I am shocked that you mentioned his scandalous piece of literture. :eek: It is full of sultry, sexually suggestive and highly scandalous material I hear.
YOU ought to be ashamed mentioning it on these forums. And just where do you have a copy of this? We can discuss this later at home.

Pablo

PS: And just what the hell are we talking about here!? :confused: :D

[wmanion]

We were talking about the article of homosexuality, but I must say that I am intrigued by any banned writings and the writings of St. Pablo sounds like something I would definitely want to read, but I have a feeling that Matthew intends to keep his copy to himself.

Bill

[antiochian]

The Gospel of St. Pablo??? Oh, yes, that gospel... the ancient equivalent of "Guys Gone Wild" on papyrus.

[Gennee]

It seems that this thread has taken on a life of its own and I'm enjoying the feedback. Please keep going. Don't stop now.


Gennee


:love: