My thoughts about the day at NCU...

[pixeltarian]

So in the visit today, I felt a lot of negativity towards me from soulforce. the issues I brought up were not even homosexuality, but the way they chose to protest. I felt that blocking the doors and not letting us move freely was not in alignment with a 'turn the other cheek' mentality. Soulforce seemed to have the idea that their actions were justified because NCU did not let them in the building. It seemed to me like a sort of passive aggressive revenge masked in "making a statement" or "raising awareness" or "showing the students what's happening." But the attitude of many members of soulforce was most apparent to me: they seemed hurt, and running under the assumption that I had bad intentions.

In following a movement, there is no way to know if some emotional hole or injustice will be soothed upon completion of a set of objectives. a fight will not heal pain. I've heard from many in soulforce about the pain and discrimination they've endured. I skipped all my classes and spent my whole day just taking to many people. Gathering ideas and opinions and trying to grasp what was going on. I love everyone regardless of sexual orientation. So that's not the issue. I was told that I don't know what it's like to struggle with something for 10 years. Well I have and it still is a struggle, but I don't equate my nature to who I am. because our nature is sinful. When Christ enters in, He is entering a territory that is full of sin. For me to say that God accepts who I am, including my sinful desires is ridiculous.

So what do we say of people that are only attracted to adolescent boys? Do we fight to change the law to accept this inside of a Christian environment? or do we try to bring people to a point where they are led by the Spirit so they do not give into the desires of their sinful nature?

That's as specific as I'll get as far as my stance goes. And I don't want to sound like I am condemning anyone. I don't have a leg to stand on as far as living the perfect holy life goes, but I feel that I do know beyond a shadow of a doubt in my spirit, that I have some understanding regarding the truth of sinful desire and living by the Spirit. But I'm sure someone knows beyond a shadow of a doubt the opposite of what I "know." which leads me to believe that there is room for us to think that God is speaking to us when it is our own great hope manifesting itself though our filter of what is right and wrong: our relationship with God.

I just urge everyone that before they take a stance on something, don't ask "does God accept me and love me" That's a given. To use that idea to form a belief can justify living and accepting any sin in one's life. God loves us more than we could ever fathom. I know in my heart of hearts there will be homosexuals in heaven, because if a homosexual can't get in, no one can. For, if homosexuality is a sin, who hasn't committed a sin? I think the question that needs to be asked is "is this right or wrong in God's eyes alone in spite of my own desire, in spite of the years I've spent defending it, in spite of the organizations that support it and tell me its ok. What does God and God alone have to say?"

And though I'm sure many have done just that, and have more grounds to speak than me because they've been on their face for hours in tears about the subject, I just wanted to put it out there because I don't approach this as a topic of sexual orientation, but a method of defining sin of all kinds weather homosexuality is one of them or not...

[keltic63]

there's lots that I'd like to talk about in your post, but I'm running out of time before I head to rehearsal. And though I'm sure many have done just that, and have more grounds to speak than me because they've been on their face for hours in tears about the subject, I just wanted to put it out there because I don't approach this as a topic of sexual orientation, but a method of defining sin of all kinds weather homosexuality is one of them or not...
So, if you're sure we've done this, and there are many of us here who have talked about our struggle to arrive at this point in our lives, is there some reason that you doubt our word, our experience, and in particular our experience of God?
Do you believe in sexual orientation? by making the statement that I quoted above, there will be many members of SF that are offended. Because you make the argument that it's just sin, like any other, we shouldn't be all worked up about it ( I think that's what I hear you saying, you can explain that a bit more if you'd like.) That argument sends us the message that the very thing we are (homosexual) is indeed sin itself. There have been plenty of hate crimes justified by this argument; the gaybashers often feel that they are doing God's work to rid the world of evil, because homosexuality is a sin.....you see how it follows. Bombers of abortion clinics feel the same way. I don't think that is what you intend to say, Pixel, I'm stating why that argument is offensive to us.

Please stick around and talk some more.

[themattperry]

pixeltarian,

Thanks for your post. You make your point of view very clear, and it is a strong one. I'm glad to hear you skipped your classes and engaged in a day of alternative learning ... i often wished for those kinds of experiences when I was in school.

You, like many, use the language of "desire" when referring to homosexual attraction. While no one can deny that the defining characteristic of being a gay person is a desire for intimacy,unity and sexual interaction with those of the same sex, being gay is for me different than other desires. Our sexuality is part of our instinctive make-up -- our nature. We are made that way. Would you or I "desire" to be gay if we knew what it entailed? If we knew that it meant enduring all of the suffering your describe?

I am not saying that all in-born or even un-chosen traits are good. However, given the nature of this particular in-born/unchosen trait -- given that it brings about loving, respectful, holy relationships between adult men and women, and given that it is the insturment with which God has provided me to express my deepest love for another human being, I know it is good, and I know it is right.

I believe that the God is basically uninterested in who is loving whom within the context of respectful, adult sexual relationships. From all I can intuit, God is more concerned with how we love eachother ... with what abandon and with what depth and with what faithfulness.

There is sin all around us, for sure ... and more to the point, within us. But it is not sin for me to love according to my nature when it hurts no one, and brings good things to me and to my beloved. That is simply not sin! So be free from worry pixeltarian -- and know that loving who you are born to love will bring you closer to your creator, your nature and your beloved. That's what I believe.

How about you?

[pixeltarian]

Well I speak more of a nature than desire. I do think we are born with sin. before we come to Christ, sinful nature and a social domestication are all we have. in accepting Christ we strive to go against one of the priciples 100% (the sinful nature) and the other we are simply no longer under, though it may line up with where God chooses to take us. The tricky part is determining what sin is. The point I was trying to make is that it is the will of our flesh to let sin survive, and to justify it. So we must be careful when approaching an array of topics, homosexuality included. I think a romantic relationship with another should be something that happens after a journey with God alone. Give to God, and it shall be given.

What I believe is that I was born to love Christ first, and then everything else will come. I will depend on Him to bring my future partner into my life.

[pixeltarian]

Well often two people can "hear from God" and have opposite conclusions as I stated:

"I feel that I do know beyond a shadow of a doubt in my spirit, that I have some understanding regarding the truth of sinful desire and living by the Spirit. But I'm sure someone knows beyond a shadow of a doubt the opposite of what I "know." which leads me to believe that there is room for us to think that God is speaking to us when it is our own great hope manifesting itself though our filter of what is right and wrong: our relationship with God."

===================
you need to take what I said as a whole. I was connecting the idea that people hear opposite things from God, so we should take the time to put our desires, the movments we follow, the people that support us, and even the sexual orientation we are, on hold and seek answers from God 100% so we can be sure it's the truth. A common tone I feel is that everything's I say is an attack. my message is something that also applies to me. if what God says to you is different from what I feel he has spoke into my life regarding a specific right and wrong issue, it challenges me to meditate and pray about it more, and I hope it does the same for others.

[themattperry]

What I believe is that I was born to love Christ first, and then everything else will come. I will depend on Him to bring my future partner into my life.

I agree pixel ... what if your walk with Christ brings a partner of the same gender into your life? Would that be ok with you? Or do you put limits on the future in this regard?

Seemed like an obvious question, and I'd be interested to hear your response.

God bless!

[pixeltarian]

So, Keltic63 said: "now, pixeltarian, tell us more about you."

be careful what you wish for:

I guess that creative pursuits have kept me from exploring my own sexuality enough to struggle with it. I would much rather create something thran worry about love and certain other aspects of human interaction. I never dated anyone until about the age of 20. I feel that I'm fairly cold in uncaring in relationships, though I cry about that fact when I am alone. I've had a homosexual experience at one time in my life. there are only 3 people in the world that knew that until this day. I feel comfortable saying at this point in my life though, my worth is not placed in the opinions of man. I am a heterosexual now, but if I lived with no moral guide or personal priciples I would probably be pansexual because of my current indifference when it comes to that area. I want to be able to love, but I am unable to empathize when people are in pain or in need. Another struggle in my life has been with lustful desires. I try to remain in prayer and communication with God. I strive to constantly improve myself, and rewrite the what influence has written on me. I daily pray that God would erase the images and negative influences that have been ingrained into me. I hope to be able to treat everyone as child of God, and never as anything less.

I love to hear ideas and opinions. I love observing people and finding out what brought them to be who they are today. I would rather have a lengthy, meaningful conversation with someone than almost anything else. I think mostly with my head, and not with my heart. I've been a Christian since I was 6. I was raised in the Church, and rejected for the most part. There is no real reason for that other than not being popular. I love God in spite of this opposition. I have fanciful notions of someday being a spiritual leader of sorts. hmm... I'm 22. Currently a music major.

there is not one question you could ask that I wouldn't answer 100% truthfully. So if you had in mind some other information that I did not come up with, feel free...

[tdogg]

Pixeltarian,

it seems that you are perhaps just beginning a 'journey' many of us have already been through. That would (kindly) explain some differences in opinion. Perhaps you are still determining what is right and wrong for you. Many of us on these forums have no issue with our sexual orientation and whether or not it is right for us. It is simply who we are.

I know God brought my (same sex) partner and I together at the perfect time in our lives, so we are perfect for each other. There is nothing sinful or wrong about, nothing to debate, nothing to justify. It just is and I know it pleases God.

Maybe you are still trying to figure it all out for yourself? We can understand that. And we ask that you understand the position many of us here are in - we are okay with ourselves and we know that God is okay with us too. By that I mean, not only does he love us, but he doesn't consider our sexual orientation, including our same-sex relationships, as sin or as being of a sinful nature. The issue might not be that you disagree with us, but that you are still trying to figure out what God's plan is for you???

[pixeltarian]

I agree pixel ... what if your walk with Christ brings a partner of the same gender into your life? Would that be ok with you? Or do you put limits on the future in this regard?

Seemed like an obvious question, and I'd be interested to hear your response.

God bless!


Well if the rule is that I have to answer that question wtihout pulling from any outside variable. yes. I am in submittion to the will of God.

but I still am not convinced of the validity. if I am born attracted to women, that question would be like me asking you, "if God brought a partner of the opposite sex into your life would that be ok with you?"

would it?

[pixeltarian]

Pixeltarian,

it seems that you are perhaps just beginning a 'journey' many of us have already been through. That would (kindly) explain some differences in opinion. Perhaps you are still determining what is right and wrong for you. Many of us on these forums have no issue with our sexual orientation and whether or not it is right for us. It is simply who we are.

I know God brought my (same sex) partner and I together at the perfect time in our lives, so we are perfect for each other. There is nothing sinful or wrong about, nothing to debate, nothing to justify. It just is and I know it pleases God.

Maybe you are still trying to figure it all out for yourself? We can understand that. And we ask that you understand the position many of us here are in - we are okay with ourselves and we know that God is okay with us too. By that I mean, not only does he love us, but he doesn't consider our sexual orientation, including our same-sex relationships, as sin or as being of a sinful nature. The issue might not be that you disagree with us, but that you are still trying to figure out what God's plan is for you???

oh no! hehe. I've come across as unsure of myself. I am concerned about my relationship with God and no one else. In abandoning the desire to "find someone" makes me more sure of myself than ever. when referring to my indifference I more meant I would be lost in sexual sin (see definition of pansexual). Well that, and I just have this very laid back tendancy. If I were to reconnect the idea that I wanted to pursue a relationship, it would be with a girl. I've determined my sexuality, but just not something that is outside of who I am like homosexuality. At the same time homosexualiy doesn't freak me out or anything because I'm pretty ok with people of all sorts.

It's pretty neat that you know what is right for you. I think more in terms of right and wrong. I dont think it's a relative thing.

[themattperry]

Well if the rule is that I have to answer that question wtihout pulling from any outside variable. yes. I am in submittion to the will of God.

but I still am not convinced of the validity. if I am born attracted to women, that question would be like me asking you, "if God brought a partner of the opposite sex into your life would that be ok with you?"

would it?


Pixel,

First of all, I definitely would have welcomed whatever partner God might have brought into my life. Yes yes and a thousand times yes. Given that I am 99% of the time attracted to and desire intimacy with men as opposed to women, it's not surprising that my partner is indeed ... a man! But I am and have for many years now been open to God's call in this area of my life. This surrender to the will of God came only after years of struggle to try to be something and someone I am not created to be. I was rebellious and tried to make myself into the straight person that I just am not ... the result was misery and lonliness. I thank God for the man in my life every day. The fact that he is man is somewhat secondary to me ... the main points are that he is in my life spiritually, emotionally and in many other ways, and that we love eachother.

Next ... reading your post brought me to tears, and I am known as a non-cryer. If you were around I would offer you a huge hug. Pixel, I feel for you because I used to be like you. Please know that you are loved and accepted by God and by many of us here -- no matter who you are attracted to or whatever. This is the good news -- the living Gospel -- that you are freed BY love TO love. Your story just brought to my heart and mind the immense, stifling damage that the church's favorite drug brings to people. That drug is GUILT. It is powerful, it is deadly and it is mortal. It is the fear of hell, the fear of discovery, the fear of risk and the fear of loss. The God I gladly follow is the God who so often in the Bible encouraged us all to "have no fear" ... to "be of good courage" ... even in the presence of very scary, courage-draining things.

I don't really know why that came to mind ... but please keep posting Pixel, know that you are not alone, and that there are many here --str8,gay--whatever --- who have been where you are, and have found, through grace, the courage to love again.

[pixeltarian]

In the end love is the only message worth talking about. At this point all I can say is that I hope that Homosexuality is acceptable to God. I will probably never know unless I go through a personal battle with it. I have acquaintances in the GLBC (I hope that was the appropriate abbreviation), but no friends. That is most of the reason I joined the forum. I want to see things from another perspective because I realise people who have gone through the struggle have much more to say than people who condemn them...

[Zerbie]

Hello Pixel, welcome to the forum!

I am not sure how to go about saluting you, as I find you quite on a different wavelength than the one I live on, but what they hey? hello, pleased to make your acquaintance.


It is fascinating that you felt rejected - for a lifetime? In your church as well as elsewhere? You find no reason to which to attribute that feeling?

It's also interesting that you at some level avoid emotional relationships. I can understand your, being in my head, thing - that clicks. But as someone who tends to feel quickly and deeply, and empathize, I find it difficult to understand what it means when you say you do not empathize. I can't visualize it. Perhaps that's something in your character, a trait with which you were born. Or perhaps it's something you *learned* along the way in life, from circumstances that do not seem remarkable to you, but which may have caused you to shut down emotionally.

There were things in my life that I wasn't ready to face as a youngster, and I actively searched for something to throw myself into 100% in order to be too busy to have a "normal" social life. I didn't date much either when young - a handful of dates. Before the age of 22, no relationship that really set bells ringing. I was immersed in music, and really did not have time for much social life with all the rehearsing/classes/practicing, etc. But it was also a conscious decision to throw myself into the career that way in order to avoid things I did not want to face. And I liked having an easy excuse for why I didn't have a boyfriend. That scenario may be something we have in common, or perhaps it is not the case for you as it was for me.

Coupla questions for ya:

What brings you to this forum? Questioning us? Questioning something in your own life? Conflict with the Equality Riders? Other?

And,
What do you mean by, I've determined my sexuality? You mean you chose it? Or you have discovered what your "orientation" is?

[Zerbie]

In the end love is the only message worth talking about. ...

Yes!!!!

If that were the only sentence I read all day, it would be enough.

Ultimately it comes down to love, love of oneself, love of one's neighbor. Love of the Creator. Love of the Life that is in all things.

Nifty that you answered one of my questions to you AS I was typing the question. Glad to have you with us on the forums, Pixel.

[Dash]

I think...

...that the Lamb has been slain on the altar of the world.

...that the world has been cleansed by this sacrifice.

...that we shall not call unclean what God has made clean.

...that all that moves in love is holy.

...that indeed, love makes all it touches holy, for no one can harm or defile that which they love truly.

...that even if at one time our sexuality was considered unclean (as some foods were...as some nations were to the jews) it is no longer.

Peter's dream was a revelation that flies in the face of the tradition of an "unchanging, eternal" word of God. The vision that came to him of all kinds of creatures being let down from heaven for him to eat is a beautiful metaphor that says to me, "All things are now prepared for for your good, and for your use." The voice spoke to him saying, "Eat." He refused because his tradition and law said it was unclean. The voice spoke again not to say the law had changed...but that the nature of all things had been changed.

You may believe in the law of God, but I think must believe that voice. Perhaps the law has not changed, but we are changed. The whole point of a sacrifice in for the ancients was to purify. The Lamb was slain to purify. The world...God's people...everything has been made clean. The voice either spoke the truth to Peter, or it lied. The blood of Christ was either efficacious for cleansing, or it was not.

I tell you friend...that accusing spirit whispers the words of the law in our ears. "Guilty...guilty...law breaker...guilty."

The spirit of God responded not by changing the law, but by changing us. Much to the chagrin of that angry voice, the law no longer applies. The uncleaness...the sin... against which it stood is removed. There is no law against that which is not sin. There is no law against love.

[pixeltarian]

H
Coupla questions for ya:

What brings you to this forum? Questioning us? Questioning something in your own life? Conflict with the Equality Riders? Other?

And,
What do you mean by, I've determined my sexuality? You mean you chose it? Or you have discovered what your "orientation" is?

I just posted why I came to the forum. That and I attend NCU where SF just was.


sexuality:
Well I think there are few ways you come to such a conclusion. mine had nothing to do with religion or social norms. I just came to the conclusion that I have a 5% attraction to men and 95% attraction to women. The 5% might come from the fact that I'm easy going, and I accept people and what they want for themselves. If I was hit on by a guy, I probably wouldn't be uncomfortable, I would respect them and give him attention while trying to make it known that I was a hetrosexual without ruining the mood... To be quite honest; a guy has never made my heart rate go up and my palms sweat. A guy has never made me stumble over my own words. A guy has never been the first thing I thought of when I woke up, and the last thing I thought of when I went to bed. I've never just smiled to myself when thinking of a certain guys face. But all of the above apply to girls. I do feel desire, but have a tougher time with love...

[Daniel]

I do feel desire, but have a tougher time with love...


Hello Pixel,

Welcome to these forums. I'm pretty new myself here.

What you said about love rings true with me. I think that's been at the core of my life for the most part. I could go on about why that is- there are numerous explanations- but suffice it to say that the search for love in its many forms has been a major part of my life.

I'm gay and have been in a relationship for 14 years now. Loving my husband has taken on many different meanings. After the first year blitz of feeling I found that a whole world opened up. And not always so swell either. I found a resistance within me to really do the work- and it seems like work at times- to love him. For me that has meant learning to accept myself first- with all my foibles and neurosis'. That hasn't always been an easy matter. It was hard to realize that I wasn't the great guy I thought I was all the time: I could be angry, jealous and small-minded. And lustful too. And not always for Mr. Beloved. It has amazed me the issues that have come up in being in loving relationship with my guy. My whole being has been opened up for a good sifting . I think this is why I have the line at the bottom of my posts. Love will have its way with us if we allow it. And those ways are as mysterious as they are wondrous.

I identify with you very much about not feeling compassion for others and being in a state of 'unfeeling'. I've had to work at that. A lot. Still do. I learned about methods to address this matter from those who talk about compassion a great deal- the Buddhists- who talk about 'generating compassion.' This perspective has informed, if I am not mistaken, the genesis of the practices of non-violence via Gandhi. But there is equally effective practices to this end in esoteric christianity as evidenced by the teachings of the Desert Fathers- which are extant in monastic settings to this day. One such means is the "Jesus Prayer." This practice endeavors to get the head talking to the heart- in fact- to have the hearts perspective at all times.

Or course, these contemplative skills must be experienced to be understood. Such is the way.

I would not change a thing now these 14 years since I met my guy. These years have made me what and who I am- learning to love and be loved has taken me to the depths and heights of being alive and being human.

My prayers are with you- may your journey be a light one.

[Joe Brummer]

Based on what you have written, I would say you are not gay. But I am, trust me my partner, even after six years still makes my heart race from time to time, he still makes me stutter, and he still makes my palms sweat (usually about the checkbook) but none the less.....

I didn't choose to feel this way, I have always felt this way, I struggled and prayed for it to go away. I went into therapy to "force" it to go away. Guess what? Didn't work, I am still gay. Conclusion after all that, god still loves me because he made me this way. All of the pain and misery I felt trying to be straight was me wasting away what God gave me....a life!

[tdogg]

I know exactly how you feel - about who you are attracted to...

Guys don't make my heart rate go up and my palms sweat either, or make me stumble over my own words, have never been the first thing I thought of when I woke up, and the last thing I thought of when I went to bed. I've never just smiled to myself when thinking of a certain guys face, but all of the above apply to girls....(thanks for letting me use your words!)!!!

Ok, so I'm a girl and it's my attempt at a little humor...Hope it made ya chuckle! Glad you're here!!!:lol:

[keltic63]

So, Keltic63 said: "now, pixeltarian, tell us more about you."

be careful what you wish for:

I guess that creative pursuits have kept me from exploring my own sexuality enough to struggle with it. I would much rather create something thran worry about love and certain other aspects of human interaction. I never dated anyone until about the age of 20. I feel that I'm fairly cold in uncaring in relationships, though I cry about that fact when I am alone. I've had a homosexual experience at one time in my life. there are only 3 people in the world that knew that until this day. I feel comfortable saying at this point in my life though, my worth is not placed in the opinions of man. I am a heterosexual now, but if I lived with no moral guide or personal priciples I would probably be pansexual because of my current indifference when it comes to that area. I want to be able to love, but I am unable to empathize when people are in pain or in need. Another struggle in my life has been with lustful desires. I try to remain in prayer and communication with God. I strive to constantly improve myself, and rewrite the what influence has written on me. I daily pray that God would erase the images and negative influences that have been ingrained into me. I hope to be able to treat everyone as child of God, and never as anything less.

I love to hear ideas and opinions. I love observing people and finding out what brought them to be who they are today. I would rather have a lengthy, meaningful conversation with someone than almost anything else. I think mostly with my head, and not with my heart. I've been a Christian since I was 6. I was raised in the Church, and rejected for the most part. There is no real reason for that other than not being popular. I love God in spite of this opposition. I have fanciful notions of someday being a spiritual leader of sorts. hmm... I'm 22. Currently a music major.

there is not one question you could ask that I wouldn't answer 100% truthfully. So if you had in mind some other information that I did not come up with, feel free...
I've got to say, Pixeltarian, that I really appreciate this post. as far as your 1 homosexual experience, that's common, most guys have that experience. I'm more concerned that you feel you have trouble in relationships, that you know you are cold and uncaring. That is troublesome to me as a christian, not from a sinful standpoint, but rather the idea of letting the love of God flow through you. Perhaps you could explore the ways that you prevent that from happening, or look at ways to practice demonstrating that love to others. It doesn't have to be in an intimate relationship, just find ways to go about showing God's love in tangible ways with the people you interact with daily.
I have to agree with tdogg that you are just beginning on this journey. You're 22, and I know what I was doing at 22. I hesitate to call what I did a mistake, but I do know that I should have done something else. I trust God now that everything happens as it should happen, and knowledge and wisdom comes to us when we are ready to receive.
you mention that you felt we were on the defensive, that everything you said was viewed as an attack. I must admit that from your initial posts, it looked to me like that was what was coming, and in some ways did come. For instance, your talk of orientation and sin came across as "hate the sin, love the sinner" which just doesn't seem possible to us because we've suffered so much at the hands of christians who claim to be showing God's love for us "sinners." You said that you came to our forums to learn more: "I want to see things from another perspective because I realise people who have gone through the struggle have much more to say than people who condemn them..." Much of your early posts felt like condemnation. (you said you'd be 100% truthful, I'm doing the same right now.) I was mildly put off by what preceded the quote above: "At this point all I can say is that I hope that Homosexuality is acceptable to God. I will probably never know unless I go through a personal battle with it." My reading of this, which could be totally off, was that you were patronizing us; your mind is made up and you'll listen to us, but it won't affect your decision. Some other things you've posted, don't support that notion. I do think you can know that homosexuality is not only acceptable to God, but also part of God's wonderful creation. I don't think you need to go through a personal battle with it to understand it.
Again, I appreciate what you've posted here today. and judging from the responses, others appreciate it as well.

[pixeltarian]

To condemn is a pretty specifc thing. It is to make the judgment on where someone's life is going. I never did that. you're pulling out some meaning that I never intended. That's what I am referring to when I say you seem to be on the defensive. even if my opinions do not line up with yours does not mean I am condemning anyone. I never directed any of what I said at a group of people or a sexual orientation. All I have done was present some ideas and some thoughts, I've not told anyone they were going to hell or even that anyone is doing anything wrong. I am trying to get a better understanding by stating some thoughts, but they are not necessarily my personal beliefs.

You're reading between the lines a bit with things I say. I am a straight shooter. If I wanted to say that my mind is made up and that I'll listen but it won't affect my decision, I would simply say just that. Take what I say at face value. when I say "I hope homosexuality is acceptable to God." I mean that I don't know at this point. And obviously the only people that would have the utmost insight on the subject would be people who have sought after answers for years because they needed those answers to have a complete and full life.

[vaguy78]

Hey peeps,
so I have been following the thread and there are some interesting things that seem to stand out i guess when reading through it. This dialogue kinda sparked some comments and questions that I was thinking about so if you guyz can help me out, i'd appreciate it. Sin effects how we respond to God and to the world around us.

From what I understand about human nature, the cross and sin, is that our nature which was very good in the Sight of God was corrupted by sin, not totally consumed. Also when we are redeemed though the blood, that God seems to focus on Character, to make us more in the image of Christ, which more so deals with how we respond or use what we are given, (which implies that what is there is already in tact and ready to be used), not how we are created.

Also I see orientation as a non-character issues. I mean what I do with my orientation could be an issue of character but my orientation in and of itself isn't an issue of character.

for me, my orientation is separate from desire. I remember way before i desired boys that i was oriented towards my gender. It's kinda like how my brother is oriented towards the opposite sex long before his desire for that kind of relationship to move beyond the normal family or friendship boundaries. yes desire and orientation can work together but i'm not sure if they are that intimately related that they can't be separated.

questions

Does sin effected the creative process of God's design?

Can we be unrepentant sinners and have good desires?

Can we be repentant sinner and have good desire?

Who determines what desires are good and which ones are not?

As a Christian, how can we measure if homosexual desires and orientation is not good ,given the inconsistency between the hebrew/greek translation and the english translation of the bible?

If we are transformed in our character, will we still meet the savior even if we are not perfect at his coming?

is perfection and totally obedience a requirement to maintain salvation?

I ask some of these questions to see what people think. I'm curious and has been wrestling with them in the recent past and this thread kinda brought some of that up.

thanks Pixeltarian for the thread

[pixeltarian]

Does sin effected the creative process of God's design?
Can we be unrepentant sinners and have good desires?
Can we be repentant sinner and have good desire?
Who determines what desires are good and which ones are not?

As a Christian, how can we measure if homosexual desires and orientation is not good ,given the inconsistency between the hebrew/greek translation and the english translation of the bible?

If we are transformed in our character, will we still meet the savior even if we are not perfect at his coming?

is perfection and totally obedience a requirement to maintain salvation?

wow that is the motherload. ok let's see what I can come up with...

Sin can affect God's intention for someone's life. If God want's me to give something up, but I hang on to it in spite of God's direction, I am rebelling against what God want's for me.

we can have good desires and be unrepentant. If we only desire things and are are not willing to sacrifice. I can desire God in my life and desire to sin. many people live trying to serve God and justify fulfilling sinful desires at the same time. But if we do that, we are not accomplishing what either part really wants (see Galatians 5:16-18).

The Spirit of God determines what desires are good. I really reccomend reading Galatians. Walking and living by the Spirit of God will keep you from fulfilling the desires of the sinful nature.

there isn't a huge inconsistency between the hebrew and the greek. I recommend the book "Grasping God's Word" regarding that. once you learn the writing style of specific authors and the difference between hebrew poetry and a Greek apostolistic letter, you find there are a lot less discrepancies than what it seems.

"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." We will never be perfect or 100% transformed, but we should be in constant preparation for the coming of Christ.

Salvation comes through believing that Jesus is the son of God that sacrificed Himself for our sins. But perfection and totally obedience should be our goal or we are taking advantage of God's grace.

[vaguy78]

Hey man,

Thanks for the answers. I was just wondering what your thoughts were. With the language question i was more refering to the inconsistencies between how things were translated in english from the greek and english from the hebrew.

so is it possible to achieve total obedience on this side of heaven? and if so, does that mean that whenever we sin, which because of the sin nature it's inevidable, does that mean we are automatically taking advantage of God's grace? and if not, what do u think is the principle behind pursuing a goal that can't be achieved?

thanks buddy

[pixeltarian]

Hey man,

Thanks for the answers. I was just wondering what your thoughts were. With the language question i was more refering to the inconsistencies between how things were translated in english from the greek and english from the hebrew.

so is it possible to achieve total obedience on this side of heaven? and if so, does that mean that whenever we sin, which because of the sin nature it's inevidable, does that mean we are automatically taking advantage of God's grace? and if not, what do u think is the principle behind pursuing a goal that can't be achieved?

thanks buddy

Yes. We have all fallen short, but it is possible to achieve total obedience this side of heaven. Can you pray and sin at the same time? can you be in God's presence and sin? I do not think you can if it's your seeking Him that has led you there. So in these moments where we are not vulnerable to sin is where I realized that it can be this way at all times. We can get to a place where we walk with God and not chase after God. when we catch up to him and are with him at all times is when we achieve this total obedience. I do not think that sin is inevitable. I think it is possible to reach a place where you are free from your sinful nature. I don't think that anyone is there at all times, but I know it is possible. so in this struggle to be pure and perfect I do not think we take advantage of God's grace, I think that we fail to realize what a great gift it truly is though...

Sin is the act of hurting ourselves and our spirit. God's pain I believe comes from seeing our pain. God also has more grace for us than we have for ourselves. This is why we feel guilt and like we're not forgiven even after we ask for it. We don't forgive ourselves. I have learned to separate my self forgiveness from God's. When I feel this guilt I know it my own lack of forgiveness, not God's.

I've not been around in a while, just stumbled back in here after reading a newsletter from soul force. A current thought of mine:

To me it seems that soulforce community is unable to reciprocate the love that some people who don't agree with homosexuality extend. The lack of acceptance is not from a hate for a group of people, but a love for God. Even if doctrinal fruits of this pursuit are wrong, a denomination should have a right to do what they feel is in compliance with God's command. That's why there are different denominations. The GLBC getting angry and protesting isn't going to change what an institution believes is right. It might actually solidify the idea that they are right.

A better strategy might be to love the people that attend schools and institutions. To show them that we are not enemies. To allow them to attend classes freely and not block doors. To listen and try and understand the viewpoints of students. Not just to try and attract attention or force some sort of scene that might make the evening news. What kind of victory is that for the kingdom of heaven? to generate attention in hopes of tainting the image of a group that loves you... it's very sad.

[scott snedeker]

Always Remember that You are a man with the soul of a man. When you make love to another man, you please God with the afffirmation of your true nature. It is a holy encounter. The more you love, The closer you are in connection with the spirit that knows your soul. This is why It feels good! God created you gay so that you can love another of his Gay children. There is no verse in the Bible that can leap off the page and harm you. The only harm comes from what some one or you yourself might do to you in the name of their God. Violence in spirit or material form is not God's will. If a verse causes you to feel badly, then you are misinterpreting it as it was not put there to harm you. You are just not ready at this time to understand it. Select another verse that does make you feel good for this is God's message that you are ready to understand. God wishes you to love another man so that he can share in your joy!

[scott snedeker]

I feel much of you struggle has to do with sin and devotion.

I cannot accept any claim that I am unworthy because I was created. This comes the same direction as being called a worthless deviant because I have sexual attraction to men. Psychologically this seems very damaging.

I have a very negative threatening feeling attached to the word christian.

I believe this stems from multiple experiences I have had in childhood and with sanctimonious predators.

At age 6 I was traumatized when overheard that I was likely to die of a congenital heart defect. Then at the same time I was introduced to the Methodist Church where I was told Jesus was going to take my soul. So naturally I was mortally frightened of Christ whom I then believed to be my killer.

Fortunately I had a successful surgey. But the threat never went away. I believe it may have been just short of a genuine phobia. Only 2 months ago (42 years old) did I make the connection between the feeling of being threatened by Christ and my childhood experience.

Combine that early formative experience, with "christian" condemnation of gays (again the killer threatening me) and you have a hell of a reinforced negative feeling.

Christ, I feel,was a genius of universal love. He was so intimatety connected with the human capacity to love that millions believe him to be God incarnate. And perhaps he is by some definition.

The power of his name however is irresistible to those who would use the condemnation of others to compensate for low selfesteem or just simply to make money or gain power. No universal love there. I sense the word christian has been stigmatized for many as it has for myself.

I like the wwjd approach. Makes one stop and consider. And the Key lesson I learned is that my own interpretation of Christ's teaching --Universal love-- has the most meaning to me. Any teaching of love that is less than universal has no meaning at all.

To give my spirituality a Pro-Gay affirmation I think of Pan. He was paternal, playful and had sex with men as well as women. A face of God that loves me just as I am, A playful fella with the spirit of a satyr. His sigil is the symbol on my posts and a tattoo on me.

By Identifying and defining the cause of negative emotion It becomes less powerful. And we become free.

life is supposed to be fun. Perhaps you could let go of sin. Our entitlement to joy is a given..When you come to know this, All that remains is the exploration of the many different ways to let it in!

Scotty :cowboy:

[pixeltarian]

Let go of sin? Well I cannot let go of something that I do not hang on to. I want to run from sin.

Jesus is the definition of love but not acceptance. He did not accept the teachers of the law and did not accept things that were sinful, He loved sinners but told them to "Go, and sin no more." It's pretty clear.

[Emproph]

Let go of sin? Well I cannot let go of something that I do not hang on to. I want to run from sin.In this case sin is something that is apart of who you are. You can't hang onto or not hang onto that.

Unless you're making a distinction between loving someone of the same gender and the physical expression of that love - sex, or 'homosexual behavior' as they like to call it. If that's the case, would it be acceptable to have a lifetime love relationship with someone if it was devoid of sex?

Jesus is the definition of love but not acceptance. He did not accept the teachers of the law and did not accept things that were sinful, He loved sinners but told them to "Go, and sin no more." It's pretty clear.If sin is the expression of the absence of love, then of course it should be rejected. What happens though when love itself is considered to be the sin?

[scott snedeker]

"Jesus is the definition of love but not acceptance."

Whoa! NOT in my BOOK!
Acceptance and Affirmation of one's nature are two immutable primary truths in one's spirtuality. Absence of these is a Disconnection with Source Energy (God)

"If sin is the expression of the absence of love, then of course it should be rejected. What happens though when love itself is considered to be the sin?"

BY WHOM? Love is never a sin. Period!

What Happens next is that you stop listening to whomever is speaking. Then offer a different interpretation.

Consensual Sex is not a sin.

Making an Agreement of monogamy (or Monoandry) and then breaking it causing pain is a sin to your betrothed and others.

Making the committment itself when you are by nature polygamous (or polyandrous) is a sin against yourself and others.

Telling a developing adolescent That God considers he or she to be in sin because he or she has sexual attraction or even sex with the same Gender is THE WORST PSYCHOLOGICAL INJURY A RELIGIOUS TEACHER COULD DO!!!!!

THAT IS THE SIN, NOT OUR NATURE

That is what makes me angry. Which is healthy.

Anger is the first step out of being a victim. It prepares you for the next step which is frustration with what is. which now and then there rises hope for change. then believing change will occur. Then Knowing change will occur. And with each transition there is the joy of exploration.

What makes me sad and frustrated is when gay guys and gals defend this sin against ourselves. This religious version of "Battered wife syndrome" Requires patience and unending affirmation of us and our nature.

If reading this makes you not even consider that what I'm saying could be true, then your time for change is not now. Your journey has longer to go before you can recognize spiritual trangressions against you.

If reading this makes you fear accepting your nature as a gift from God complete and acceptable, be patient. With focus it will come.

If reading this makes you angry----that's healthy. It means to me that you are closer to the needed change that awaits you. But consider in which direction your anger should go. Toward me? Or toward the one who psychologically abused you as an adolescent?

Love and acceptance,

Scotty:cowboy:

[Daniel]

I would rather have a lengthy, meaningful conversation with someone than almost anything else. I think mostly with my head, and not with my heart. I've been a Christian since I was 6. I was raised in the Church, and rejected for the most part. There is no real reason for that other than not being popular. I love God in spite of this opposition. I have fanciful notions of someday being a spiritual leader of sorts. hmm... I'm 22. Currently a music major.

I've resurrected a bit of an earlier post of yours in this thread for the simple reason that it reminds me of myself at your age, especially the music part and being in one's head- and yes- the need for meaningful and serious- conversation. I spent many an evening arguing with my roommate at Evangel about everything and nothing. It was an intense time. And from what you've posted, would it be fair to say that you've experienced a good deal of intensity via Soulforce's action at your school? Is that what you are talking about below?

To me it seems that soulforce community is unable to reciprocate the love that some people who don't agree with homosexuality extend. The lack of acceptance is not from a hate for a group of people, but a love for God. Even if doctrinal fruits of this pursuit are wrong, a denomination should have a right to do what they feel is in compliance with God's command. That's why there are different denominations. The GLBC getting angry and protesting isn't going to change what an institution believes is right. It might actually solidify the idea that they are right.

A better strategy might be to love the people that attend schools and institutions. To show them that we are not enemies. To allow them to attend classes freely and not block doors. To listen and try and understand the viewpoints of students. Not just to try and attract attention or force some sort of scene that might make the evening news. What kind of victory is that for the kingdom of heaven? to generate attention in hopes of tainting the image of a group that loves you... it's very sad.

I can't say that I can share your perception that the Soulforce community is unable to reciprocate the love that is extended to them by those who 'do not agree with homosexuality.' This seems like a contradiction.

It is really the love of God that makes people- we're talking conservative/fundamentalist Christian here- act so condemnatory toward gay people? You might as well say "We love God so much that we HAVE to hate you. He demands it. We're just following orders." Put in such graphic language, well, it's a bit over the top, isn't it? It equally disconcerting to to hear those who cannot help themselves blame the devil for their actions (Ted Haggard comes to mind here). This speaks to what one believes and how one acts on those beliefs. Are those beliefs informed by a current understanding and knowledge regarding sexuality as in pyschology, science and medicine? I would hope so. We are very progressive about how our doctor treats us- we want the latest treatements- yet seem reluctance to benefit from this kind of perspective as far as our understanding of sexuality/homosexuality and theology.

I hear you saying above that opposition to gay rights has been solidified at your school because of actions like the Eride. And that may be so. If you could be more forthcoming about this I would be interested in hearing about it.

[kara speltz]

I was only on the Texas leg of the Equality Ride and our experiences there were really amazing. Since I wasn't at NCU, I can't comment on the blocking of the doors, though I heard from some that it happened rather spontaneously and that any violence that took place was upon the Riders, not at all by the riders.

But, over all, I think the Equality Ride is the best thing Soulforce has ever done. I'm looking forward to the Equality Ride 2 and the issues it will raise given how many straight folks have NO IDEA how many schools expell LGBTs.

I can't tell you how many of my so-called gay-friendly friends looked at me with astonishment and said there are schools that do that? :mad: Uh, well yea, more than 200!

Again, not to beat a dead horse, but I am consistently reminded that we need to keep educating straights about the privelege they live under and for the most part unconsciously expect us to do without.

My friends think they are supportive, but their ignorance clearly indicates they have a very long way to go. But I do know their hearts are in the right place, and part of my work is to keep pointing out the heterosexual, class, and race privelege they experience daily.

Kara