Harassment, a Circus and Lies

[Venari]

All I have to say is wow.

Honestly how the Equality Riders conducted them selves is less then pathetic. Many students felt harasses and threatened. Namely this is though the antics of not allowing students to enter the school. Ok this is not only where they have class but where they live; their “homes” are there. I am sorry but today was just a sad day.

Then David Coleman, "Afraid to go to classes for fear of an ex-boyfriend." Well, the person he claims was his boyfriend denies any relationship. But importantly this other young man dropped from classes early Feburary,05, when he was critically injured in a car accident. Before then David approached the school as a way to get him back for ending their friendship. David accused this young man of going to take his life, something he was nearly dismissed for a few years back. So who was harassing who?

I am sorry but after seeing my fellow students harassed and seeing a person I know to be a loving and caring person be cruelly slandered I am going to take some time off here and re-evaluate what I think of Soulforce. At this time I am straining to think of anything good I can say.

I thank all of you for the welcome you have given me and I am sorry for my tone here but seriously I have seen a lot of students hurt today. Please feel free to send me an e-mail though the site here if there is anything you want to say to me, as I do not know how long it will be before I check back again.

-Venari

[pixeltarian]

I think if they wouldn't have blocked the doors, many many minds would have been changed, at least about basic civil rights. It seemed like SF was trying to get a reaction instead of trying to inform... many students I talked to liked what was happening, and then changed their minds when they saw people fighting for access to doors to their houses...

[Zerbie]

:mad: :mad: :mad:

This is the SECOND time I've read today that the Riders are blocking access to classrooms!

Is this indeed what they are doing? if so, frankly, it is stupid.

The mission they are on is beautiful and potentially incredibly powerful. But it is common sense that if you obstruct someone who is innocently going to class on campus, that is completely inappropriate behavior. Soulforce needs to seriously re-evaluate their tactics.

I think perhaps the Ride is being too long. Or over-shooting.

If this happened today on my campus, *I* would be pissed off at the Riders. Yes, I would. And most or all of ya know how strongly I advocate for our causes. But blocking doors is inappropriate at best. I personally would find it threatening. I once had my path on a sidewalk blocked by someone recruiting membership for Amnesty International - which I was then planning to join. based on that one person's action, I changed my mind. It left the taste in my mouth that Amnesty was an aggression, threatening, nasty bunch of people who I had no wish to associate with.

Why would the Riders be perceived much differently if this is what they do?

I am feeling pretty angry too. I don't want to lose Venari - he raises important issues that no one else does. I hope he will come back.

[Joe Brummer]

I think we need to hear from one of the riders to clarify we have all the facts here. No offense to Vernari, but we need to collect information first. Remember the steps of nonviolence. Step 1) Gather information.


Can we hear from a rider about this claim and have both sides of this story?

[Venari]

http://www.kare11.com/video/player.aspx?aid=25675&bw=

http://www.kare11.com/video/player.aspx?aid=25667&sid=123213&bw=

Joe,

Here you go you can see some of what I saw today.

-Venari

[Joe Brummer]

I have watched the videos and what I can say is Venari, Have you ever read about the lunch counter sit-in's in the South? The business owners were out out by the loss of revenues they lost during the protests. The crowds were confused by the ongoings not knowing what would happen. Of course we know now what happen. It worked. Nonviolence worked. It caused the right amount of tension to bring the issues to light.

I understand you are dismayed by these tactics, and I agree with the idea that SoulForce needs to teach nonviolence to more people before engaging in these tactics. I can say from watching this video that the Riders were completely nonviolent. No one seemed afraid. No one seem threatened. It would appear that if someone took the doors by force, the Riders would still have refused to leave, but those wishing to get in, could have.

No one was left in danger. No one was threatened.


It was a perfect nonviolent action. I would suggest you read about the 6 most important nonviolent actions. In no particluar order.

The Montgomery Bus Boycotts
The lunch Counter sit ins
The Salt march
Selma 1965, the Edmond Pettus Bridge
The Freedom Rides of 1961
The boycotts of 1963 in Birmingham



Stop, look and listen. It isn't the eqaulity riders you should be afraid of, it is the underlying reasons they are there in the first place. Don't be scared of what the Riders are doing, Don't criticize what the Riders are doing, look to the reasons they are there in the first place.

I have been very critical of Soulforce lately, and at one point I wanted to start a Soulforce Chapter. I try to be open minded, but from what i have seen on the clips you have provided, I think SoulForce is doing what they have to do to create the tension that forces the world to address the issues.

These tactics worked in the past in the campaigns i mentioned. Trust me when I say, your fear of Soulforce is more a fear of the underlying circumstances.

I will leave you with the words of Dr. King, from the letter from the Birmingha Jail:

You deplore the demonstrations taking place In Birmingham [the Equality Ride]. But your statement, I am sorry to say, fails to express a similar concern for the conditions that brought about the demonstrations. I am sure that none of you would want to rest content with the superficial kind of social analysis that deals merely with effects and does not grapple with underlying causes. It is unfortunate that demonstrations are taking place in [these colleges] Birmingham, but it is even more unfortunate that the city's white [religious] power structure left the [GAY] Negro community with no alternative.

In any nonviolent campaign there are four basic steps: collection of the facts to determine whether injustices exist; negotiation; self-purification; and direct action. We have gone through an these steps in Birmingham. There can be no gainsaying the fact that racial injustice engulfs this community. Birmingham is probably the most thoroughly segregated city in the United States. Its ugly record of brutality is widely known. Negroes have experienced grossly unjust treatment in the courts. There have been more unsolved bombings of Negro homes and churches in Birmingham than in any other city in the nation. These are the hard, brutal facts of the case. On the basis of these conditions, Negro leaders sought to negotiate with the city fathers. But the latter consistently refused to engage in good-faith negotiation.

[Zerbie]

I wish I could see the videos. They didn't load properly on the computer and the browser crashed. Is that a Mac incompatibility thing?

If I could see the video, I would have a far better idea what we're talking about. My gut reaction is still that if the Riders came to my campus today and I couldn't get to class because of them, I would be incredibly angry with the Riders and with Soulforce. I would be very turned off. And I say that as a passionate advocate for the LGBT community. So I am hesitant to jump along with Joe on this point. Why should tuition-paying students by denied their classes, even for a day, by any outside group with an agenda?

I still don't know.

[Joe Brummer]

I have two points to make:

1) We are all part of the beloved community. There are no real outsiders or insiders, we are all part of one humanity. What affects one of us, effects all of us.

2) Why should a tuition paying student be kicked to the curb for being a "sinner" when other sinners get to stay? Why does the university get to judge our sins, when Christ clearly asked us not to judge.

[vaguy78]

So, before I watched the clips, I expected things to be at it's worse. I thought it was gonna be something very robust and in a lot of ways shameful but I really didnt' see anything wrong with the protest.

yeah they blocked doors, but I don't see how people could feel scared or threatened by what the protestors did. I think sometimes we over exaggerate things when in our heart we want things to be portrayed a particular way, even if the truth speaks otherwise.

[Zerbie]

2) Why should a tuition paying student be kicked to the curb for being a "sinner" when other sinners get to stay? Why does the university get to judge our sins, when Christ clearly asked us not to judge.

No kidding. That's exactly the point. So you are now saying that because university policy effectively does that to some students, everyone should be deprived in some way to make a point?? I'm not with ya.

Joe - I'm not talking about the big picture and the overall meaning here, I'm talking (and mostly asking, I think) about the specifics of this individual incident today. In which case, the word "outsiders" does apply.

Now having read two reactions to the video I'm even more frustrated that I can't get it to load on this computer, b/c I'm quite confused now as to what happened.

DID the Riders block a door (doors) or not? WERE students able to get to their class or not? If they were, did they have to have a verbal altercation to get in the building?


Okay, tech gurus: editing this post to ask, any suggestions about viewing those videos? The browser just died again when I tried to view them. I'm using a Mac and browsing with Safari. I have Firefox, should I try that?

[pixeltarian]

you can protest any way you'd like as long as no one get's scared or threatened?

how about just talking to students like they were in the begining? to bring about a change in someones heart and/or mind you need to show you care about them. Just talking to someone I learned a lot about how many basic civil rights need to be established. as soon as I saw people fighting to get in and out it made me think it wasn't about informing me, but about provoking the school so SF could get some media sob story. It's the same as witnessing. if I want someone to listen to the gospel, I don't block all the doors on a college campus. I do as much as I can. I don't piss people off... which many were. one girl came to me and some friends crying when she realised that her reaching out and taking with SF was pointless because it wasn't about dialog, but making a scene...

[pixeltarian]

DID the Riders block a door (doors) or not? WERE students able to get to their class or not? If they were, did they have to have a verbal altercation to get in the building?


Yes, almost all doors were blocked. nothing I could say would get me into the building, the only responce I got was "sorry this door is blocked." a police officer (I think he was, he had a badge and looked different from the security guards) was at one door and didn't allow people to sit in front of that particular one. so I had to walk through 3 buildings to get to my dorm room.

[awediot]

I absolutely believe in the message of SF, but thier target can get blurry... The videos just made the riders look petty and childish. They were just a nuisance and mostly to the ones they need on thier side...Hell, the guard was more courteous... No one learned anything good. Bad News and a step back...

[pixeltarian]

Jesus ever took an action like this, he only spoke the truth. "he who has ears let him hear." Remember that guys? in fact the only actions I remember Him taking were feeding people, talking to people, healing, casting out demons, and dying on a cross.

anyway, it's just a thought...

I was actually hurt when SF did this. It was almost like a feeling of heartbreak.

[Dash]

I understand that there is a lot of pain because of the action today, but friend, you have forgotten the time when Jesus drove out the money changers.

I was taught that the big issue in that story was that they had set up shop in the "court of the Gentiles"...the only place where a Gentile could come to worship God. That was as close as they were allowed in the temple. Jesus' act was....well you know. It was rough.

I was taught that part of the intent of that act was to return that portion of the temple grounds to a place of worship rather than business so that the Gentiles would be allowed a place in the community of God.

Again, I understand people are heartbroken over the way things played out today...I haven't sorted out all of my feelings about everything yet.

Hoping the wounds heal well.

[pixeltarian]

This is true... it totally slipped my mind. I do think that the idea does not apply to NCU becasue it's not all a temple, and the worship center is used to worship. So it's serving it's fuction well...

[Daniel]

I wish I could see the videos. They didn't load properly on the computer and the browser crashed. Is that a Mac incompatibility thing?

I had the same problem..I have a Mac.

[Dash]

This is true... it totally slipped my mind. I do think that the idea does not apply to NCU becasue it's not all a temple, and the worship center is used to worship. So it's serving it's fuction well...

You're quite right...there are differences. Sometimes it's good to remember this unusual action by Jesus, though. I would ask....do you think there are any similarities to the aspect of denying Gentiles a place in the community of God and the denial that gtbl people face? Generally speaking...

[pixeltarian]

You're quite right...there are differences. Sometimes it's good to remember this unusual action by Jesus, though. I would ask....do you think there are any similarities to the aspect of denying Gentiles a place in the community of God and the denial that gtbl people face? Generally speaking...


yep. I know people that "hate fags." actually that's what one of my good friends said to me right when he got out of the army... and my heart sank when I heard it. He is a Christian I guess, but I just was baffled at that loveless statement. So yes, that mentality exists.

Many many many churches will let anyone come and worship, it is very commonplace that they will not allow someone to speak about a accepting what they view to be a sin... in my mind, Churches that would kick you out for your orientation are missing the point.

[Venari]

No one was left in danger. No one was threatened.

Joe,

Yes students were harassed and threatened. When many students attempted to enter the school they were faced with threatening postures preventing them from gaining access. That is harassment intended to intimidate another person and comes very close to violence. The sit-ins never intentionally caused people emotional distress nor did they put people directly in harms way ... what if there was a fire and people tried to escape and they were sitting in front of the doors? Hypothetical but still valid.

The actions the Equality riders too today were ones intended to harass and intimidate people and not engage in conversation. Its is the school with the policies not the students so why punish the students ... plain and simple short sightedness looking only for media attention.

Yes I am very angry that many students felt harassed and it is a valid feeling... had they stood there and allowed students to come and go and ask to talk but let their presence be felt that would be a good thing. But intimidating people to not be able to go to class or their dorm rooms is plain and simple harassment.

So good job today Equality Riders... instead of reaching people you harassed an "entire" community that was mostly in support of future dialogue. Nothing like slamming the door on your own face.

-Venari

[themattperry]

The riders protested today (however hamfistedly) at a school that has a discriminaotry policy on its books and a president who spews hate (see below). The school did not allow them on campus like many similar schools. So the riders did what they did to bring attention to an UNJUST situation. They did so non-violently. They did not try to make everyone feel better, hold everyone's hand or make the supporters or apologists of injustice feel good ... but they did what they did in love and in truth. So let's park our good-boy/girl, suuuuuuper polite, midwest attitudes (that describes me too -- I'm a St Olaf College grad and former resident of the land of 10000 lakes), at the door for just a second. Personally, I'm not interested in how Minnesota-nice-or-not the protesters were. Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. They went to where injustice lived, did so peacefully, and frankly I don't care who they pissed off.

So a few doors got blocked? So someone had a hard time getting to class or to their dorm room? Are you serious?!!!? *arrrrrghhhhh* If the shrill students of North Central really have nothing in their community that needs healing, then why aren't they in classes, discussions and forums with the riders right now, rather than stepping over them to get to class or their dorms?

And if we really want to talk about academic freedom and free speech, it seems like the students of North Central need to look closer to home before they criticize any Equality Riders for blocking access to anything or preventing debate etc .... I'm not sure if this has been posted beforem but here's what the president of North Central does when facts and options he doesn't like are about to appear in a public forum .... He calls the printing presses and cancells the printing of the school's own newspaper ... yes you heard me right. But wait, there's more ... then he FIRES the Christian, husband-and-wife team who edit the paper: details below:

from Inside Higher Education:
http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2006/04/11/newspaper

from Duluth/Superior News:
http://www.duluthsuperior.com/mld/duluthsuperior/news/politics/14297116.htm

The deposed editors have started their own website here if you care to read:
http://www.nlnews.org

Still upset about some doors being blocked and other related impoliteness? Maybe we can all listen again to president Anderson (of North Central) compare us to pedophiles and practitioners of bestiality and then, in his final words, threaten us with hell if we disagree with him: here's the MP3 just in case:

http://www.nlnews.org/Anderson_9-16-05.mp3

Can you tell that I'm angry? I am!!!! I'm going to take a break!

Let's keep our eyes on the prize ... let's welcome with open arms all dialogue, all honest engagement, all support and all prayer. But let's not apologize for engaging in direct action at a place like North Central. Only good can come of that.

And if I were a student at the school, perhaps I'd be shrill too ... it must be humiliating to have to put up with the kind of injustice that you obviously deal with on a regular basis.

[Joe Brummer]

It seems people are much more interested in the protest as opposed to the reason the protest exists. Why not address the underlying issue.

Sorry Venari, from what I saw on the video, I don't think some people blocking a door is threatening.

[keltic63]

It seems people are much more interested in the protest as opposed to the reason the protest exists. Why not address the underlying issue.

Sorry Venari, from what I saw on the video, I don't think some people blocking a door is threatening.

But Joe, some of these students had to walk through 2 or 3 buildings just to get to their dorms and classrooms. And even worse, some had to actually *gasp* look at a homosexual!!!!! :eek: Haven't they suffered enough? ;)

ok, all joking aside. I have wrestled with this all night. It's clear that this demonstration was a bit more dramatic, but it was non-violent. They blocked a few doors. It may have been inconvenient, nothing more. I agree with Joe (yes, I said it; despite not always seeing eye-to-eye with him) the underlying reason for the protest needs to be addressed. President Anderson, as Matt pointed out, is very clear about his views, and in making those statements as president of the NCU, this is the official opinion of the college.

[Daniel]

The riders protested today (however hamfistedly) at a school that has a discriminaotry policy on its books and a president who spews hate.

So a few doors got blocked? So someone had a hard time getting to class or to their dorm room? Are you serious?!!!?

Let's keep our eyes on the prize ... let's welcome with open arms all dialogue, all honest engagement, all support and all prayer. But let's not apologize for engaging in direct action at a place like North Central. Only good can come of that.


Matt,

Thank for your post and the links provided.

Being a youngin' on this forum- though being at times more than twice the age of those posting- I cannot help but mention the following:

Those throwing up there hands about the actions (and get out the politeness meter at every turn) of the ERide have forgotten- don't know the history and fight- as yes- it is that at times- of the civil rights and gay rights movement. Several of the students have told of being able to be at least quasi- open about their presence on campus. Well. That's a far cry from when I was in school. There wasn't any wiggle room then- the gulf between the 'sinner' and the activity of 'sin' was firmly closed. You weren't allowed to 'be' gay and 'not act' on it. Hello? That little turf of ground these students are standing on would not exist without the deaths and efforts of a great many people. They have forgotten the shoulders they are standing on.

Ride on ERide!

[Venari]

So a few doors got blocked? So someone had a hard time getting to class or to their dorm room? Are you serious?!!!? *arrrrrghhhhh* If the shrill students of North Central really have nothing in their community that needs healing, then why aren't they in classes, discussions and forums with the riders right now, rather than stepping over them to get to class or their dorms?

So the friend of mine that call crying because she felt threatened by one of the Eqaulity Riders is ok? The videos did not show everything, the did not show the harassment.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

NCU needs change but what happened yesterday only caused more hurt to a greater number of people.

And yes the friend that called me is struggling with issues of being a lesbian. That is why we became friends I am someone she talk to and trusts. She was also excited the Equality Ride was comming ... now she is hurt and sees Soulforce as a group that harasses people for their own polotical agenda.

Being a gay student at NCU I can fully speak to the pain a student faces for ebing gay and the pain we not have from the visit. You saw the video you were not there. You didnt se the hurt people have gone through.

[keltic63]

Being a gay student at NCU I can fully speak to the pain a student faces for ebing gay and the pain we not have from the visit. You saw the video you were not there. You didnt se the hurt people have gone through.

were any of these gay students hurt by President Anderson's address (the one you posted for us to listen to)?

[Venari]

were any of these gay students hurt by President Anderson's address (the one you posted for us to listen to)?

Yes and we "called" him on it and he issued an apology. The clip is taken out of context.

[Vanessa White]

I am like many of you, struggling with this process as well, about what the right and "wrong" way is to stand up for what you believe in. I believe you, Venari, when you tell us that some of your friends felt harassed and frightened, but any action that goes against the grain, or causes disruption to our lives can feel frightening and very uncomfortable. Even if persons were not happy with the way in which the Riders conducted their visit there, it does not mean it wasn't necessary for the greater purpose. As many others have said here, oppression/injustice of some is so for ALL. No matter what we debate about what policies a school does or does not have on the books, and what it means, it is beyond speculation that every campus they have visited so far has closeted LGBT persons there, some of which have considered or tried suicide, or have had so much pain over their orientation and/or struggle that they want to die. If these nonviolent, nontraditional ways of protest and demonstration save some of those lives, then it is all well worth it. No one likes to be removed from their comfort zones, but it is really the only way that we learn and grow, learn about ourselves and others. We need to struggle and feel the sickness in the pit of our stomachs in order to realize any real change. I also have to say that just because the visit was not well received, or that persons disagreed with the methods, does not mean that all the riders were looking for was media attention. I think that demeans the whole idea of the rides and is a personal criticism of the Riders that is well undeserved.

I am going to continue to think on this, but the Riders and Soulforce still have my heartfelt support. Peace to all struggling, and I am glad that you have been sticking around Venari, even with your upset over this. I hope that your friends and yourself may come to look at this in a different way.....Vanessa:love:

[keltic63]

Yes and we "called" him on it and he issued an apology. The clip is taken out of context.

but you are the one who posted it. so did you take it out of context?

[Venari]

but you are the one who posted it. so did you take it out of context?

I was refering to http://www.nlnews.org/Anderson_9-16-05.mp3.

The address about the visit to NCU is correct. I agree that the argument that homosexuality is ok because it is natural and there for morally netural is a fautly one that opens the doors for other claims.

Dr Anderson did not say it is the same thing he said the arguement can be used the same. Which is correct, and which is why homosexuality cannot be argued from that angle or else we place ourselves on a slippery slope.

-Venari

[Daniel]

Yes and we "called" him on it and he issued an apology. The clip is taken out of context.

Who is the 'we' in the sentence above? Why am I doubful of this statement? Why do I get the impression that you overstate your influence?

Venari- you are one challenging guy. You are welcome here. But after listening to those words- and the gross ignorance expressed in them- it would take quite a turn-a-round for there to be an apology. Exactly how did you extract that apology? Please enlighten me.

[keltic63]

Dr Anderson did not say it is the same this he said the arguement can be used the same. Which is correct, and which is why homosexuality cannot be argued from that angle or else we place ourselves on a slippery slope.

-Venari

ok, you've got to speak english here. I don't follow you.

[Venari]

Who is the 'we' in the sentence above? Why am I doubful of this statement? Why do I get the impression that you overstate your influence?

Venari- you are one challenging guy. You are welcome here. But after listening to those words- and the gross ignorance expressed in them- it would take quite a turn-a-round for there to be an apology. Exactly how did you extract that apology? Please enlighten me.

WE = fellow students.

And he later said he could have worded it better. But the underlying point is how things are presented.

And Daniel, please refrain from the personal attacks you have proven more often then not you assume things about me that are competly false. I think it may be best if you ask me before making statments about me.

-Venari

[Venari]

ok, you've got to speak english here. I don't follow you.

One typo, better now?

[tdogg]

I wasn't there, I haven't seen the videos. But there are a couple of things that seem pretty clear to me. First, Venari, you were ready for something like this to confirm your suspicion that the Equality Riders were only going to be an obstruction to a school administration that was just about ready to change and accept gays and lesbians, so I can't help but feel that your posts are conveniently exaggerated to further underline your point - the point you attempted to make prior to the Riders even arriving at NCU.

Then, although you state over and over again in several different threads that NCU is just about reading to change their attitudes towards gay and lesbian students, you have provided no proof of this apparent soon-coming change. From everything I've read and heard on this matter, I just don't see any of the administration 'just about to change' their attitudes or anything else. There is some really negative stuff being spewed out by NCU administration, and there is no doubt that, while you and your friends may profess to love your school and have no problems with the administration, there are students that have serious problems with it and have been negatively affected by the administration's opinions and how it operates. It sounds like the Riders were eventually able to reach out to some students and help and support them, and if that's the case then it sounds like the event was worth it, even in the ensuing chaos.

Change for the better doesn't happen by just sitting around and letting things go, it happens by doing something, sometimes the something has to be a bit drastic. If you don't tend to your garden, it's not going to bear great flowers or vegetables, it's going to be full of weeds in no time - and when that happens, you literally have to tear the garden up before you can start to rebuild it. That is what I see the Riders doing, they are trying to get that garden ready to rebuild.:rainbow:

[pixeltarian]

So the friend of mine that call crying because she felt threatened by one of the Eqaulity Riders is ok? The videos did not show everything, the did not show the harassment.


good point. just because something is nonviolent, doesn't mean you aren't hurting people. and two wrongs really don't make a right...

[Venari]

I wasn't there, I haven't seen the videos. But there are a couple of things that seem pretty clear to me. First, Venari, you were ready for something like this to confirm your suspicion that the Equality Riders were only going to be an obstruction to a school administration that was just about ready to change and accept gays and lesbians, so I can't help but feel that your posts are conveniently exaggerated to further underline your point - the point you attempted to make prior to the Riders even arriving at NCU.

You have the right to your opinion, but read what other students have said when the Equality Ride visited their schools, I am not saying anything new.


Then, although you state over and over again in several different threads that NCU is just about reading to change their attitudes towards gay and lesbian students, you have provided no proof of this apparent soon-coming change. From everything I've read and heard on this matter, I just don't see any of the administration 'just about to change' their attitudes or anything else.[/QUOTE]

I never said it was coming soon, just that change was happening. What is most important is the change among the students as we are the future leaders of the AG.


Change for the better doesn't happen by just sitting around and letting things go, it happens by doing something, sometimes the something has to be a bit drastic. If you don't tend to your garden, it's not going to bear great flowers or vegetables, it's going to be full of weeds in no time - and when that happens, you literally have to tear the garden up before you can start to rebuild it. That is what I see the Riders doing, they are trying to get that garden ready to rebuild.:rainbow:

Yes but an ignorant gardener is more prone to do damage then to pull the weeds... also doesn’t Jesus talk about this. I remember something about human attempts to pull the tares from the wheat and how we end up pulling out the wheat.

So I guess that is ok since the prevailing logic seems to be two wrongs make it right. GLBT students are getting hurt so we'll come in there and do what ever we can to upset and possibly hurt people to make it better.

-Venari

[tdogg]

Still no real indicate of anything changing there at least going by the news of the event, your posts and the experiences of other students who were helped by the Riders. For those students who you say were hurt by the Riders, are you speaking of physical harm, great mental or emotional harm that is going to require therapy (other than the events forcing these students to look at themselves and ponder their own sexuality?), as a direct result of anything the Riders did?

I stand by my post - the Riders aren't ignorant gardeners, possibly young and not totally experienced (same as you), but definitely not ignorant. I'm sure as time goes by we'll hear more about the events at NCU and the picture may become clearer, or it may become more cloudy. At any rate, I support the Riders and what they are doing, even it makes some students uncomfortable, it obviously has been a help and support to others, at NCU and all the other schools they have visited. Some schools have even openly welcomed the Riders and it appeared to be a very positive experience for all involved.

Very often, we tend to create the exact situation which we are afraid of. I truly hope some of the students at NCU weren't at the ready to assist in the creation of a chaos they believed would happen well prior to the Riders' visit...

[Venari]

Still no real indicate of anything changing there at least going by the news of the event, your posts and the experiences of other students who were helped by the Riders. For those students who you say were hurt by the Riders, are you speaking of physical harm, great mental or emotional harm that is going to require therapy (other than the events forcing these students to look at themselves and ponder their own sexuality?), as a direct result of anything the Riders did?

Well, I have yet to hear of a student who was helped. Many thought they were over the top with their actions. Many felt harassed namely I heard a few time that "A burly girl threatened me not to allow me to my dorm room." How people process this depends on the person.

The fact remains the actions taken have no resemblance to the sit-ins or any other civil rights movement. The actions taken were done to harass and intimidate others.

I my stance is if you think these actions; intimidating students from entering campus, blocking doors potentially creating safety hazards and creating media spectacles are ones the MLK or Gandhi would do then you have greatly missed the mark and are engaging in near terrorist tactics in you use intimidation and harassment to achieve your goals.

-Venari

[dewdrop_world]

I my stance is if you think these actions; intimidating students from entering campus, blocking doors potentially creating safety hazards and creating media spectacles are ones the MLK or Gandhi would do then you have greatly missed the mark and are engaging in near terrorist tactics in you use intimidation and harassment to achieve your goals.
I oppose this kind of rhetoric as much as I oppose casual use of the word "holocaust" to refer to the injustice of the month.

I think, when we've all had time to cool down, we will probably end up agreeing that Soulforce is not Al Qaeda.

Venari, I know you're upset, but I think you're allowing your sense of hurt to cloud your judgment. This is understandable but I hope the discussion can move past that point.

hjh

[Zerbie]

Well I still haven't seen the videos. . . .

It's kind of impossible to comment now. Reading all your responses, I'm more confused than ever about this and probly will be unless I can see some of what happened.

I guess I'm just a pissy person - my instinctive reaction is it sounds like the Riders were a disruption, not in a good way.

But I'm the same girl who in undergrad used to cross the street TWICE on my way to a class b/c the campus gay rights activists were engaging in dramatic protests of the ROTC which was between the bus stop and my classroom building. There was a lot of screaming on both sides, and activists would try to engage passers-by and press them to take sides. I don't know if I would now, but back then I found the situation intimidating, which is why I crossed the street to go around them. The tension level that I observed there every morning was so high, it turned me off to activism in general, and was the reason I waited several more years before trying again to find my own niche as an activist.

Does that mean I'm over-cautious?

[Daniel]

And Daniel, please refrain from the personal attacks you have proven more often then not you assume things about me that are competly false. I think it may be best if you ask me before making statments about me.

Attack? Let's remember here the story about the little bird who thinks he's being dumped on by the cow. Ever hear of that one? The little bird is all upset that the cow has pooped on him. Well low and behold- while he's extricating himself and fussing about the actions of others a wolve comes along and eats him. The moral is: the person who you think is pooping on you may just be your friend.

[Venari]

I oppose this kind of rhetoric as much as I oppose casual use of the word "holocaust" to refer to the injustice of the month.

I do not intend to compare Soulforce to Al Qaeda.

But using the definition of the word is using intimidation to achieve your goals.

I do agree with zerbie there may need to take a time out. I know on my side I need to take some time to breathe and "count to ten." I hope from my previous posts you will understand despite my opposition to the visit I was looking for the best. Also I hope you understand my being upset is deeply genuine and please respect me on that issue.

-Venari

[Daniel]

again to find my own niche as an activist.

Does that mean I'm over-cautious?

No. You just have a nose for self-preservation. A good thing. We can't be angels all the time- and there are those situations where 'angels fear to tread'.

Fear is a very real thing- and these situations kick up a lot of it on both sides. I think that's something to look at. But as they say in the theatre when you've fumbled that high note:

"Never reproach youself!" :)

It takes a lot of courage- and yes- daring- to get out in front of an audience or engage in actions of non-violence. Missteps or not- it's getting out there that's the point.

[NathanATX]

Venari, I just want you to know I'm praying for you and for your friend. It sounds like you both have a lot of fear about people finding out about your sexuality. It must have been quite a shock to see gay & lesbian people stand up for themselves in such a bold and unapologetic way.

I'm praying for your peace & freedom.

Nate

[Dash]

One of the things that I have been thinking about for some time is the differing approaches toward this activism that are debated here. Namely:

• a patient, long-term plan for gradual change from within

vs.

• high-profile confrontations with more immediate goals

I've almost never really left the University setting since 1989, and I am aware of the power that students can have. At least in the secular intuitions of which I have been a part, when the students get riled up and there is a clamoring of letters and calls to the administration...protests and stand-ins...sidewalk chalkings and general dismay...when the students get together for change, the administration actually does listen. On the other hand, long-term proposals can be problematic for one very important reason...

...the student population is constantly changing.

The active, experienced and involved students are always on their way out to be replaced by new students who may or may not yet be involved. Here at Northwestern University, this there was a recent discussion of how the student government simply had no idea what programs and legislation had gone before in the previous twenty years or so. There was no historian and no real chain of connection between "generations" of students.

After learning more about NCU, it occurs to me that there is (internally speaking) a stronger, more constant base of support for the conservative tradition than for the progressive. The donor/alumni base does not change, whereas the student bodies are always in constant flux. With an administration that seems to strictly control student publications and dissent...and also (necessarily) seeks support of the older donors, it seems that student-led change might be seriously handicapped.

There's always is the issue of money unfortunately. Schools...even Christian schools are a business. Tuition generally does not cover all the costs of running a university, and dissatisfied donors simply will not give to a Christian organization that they think is heading down a wrong path. Progressive moral change is inherently at odds with older, generally more conservative, donors.

Am I making a valid observation? If so, how will it inform our methods of activism?

Love to all.:love:

[dewdrop_world]

I do not intend to compare Soulforce to Al Qaeda.

But using the definition of the word is using intimidation to achieve your goals.
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/terrorism

"the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion"

I also haven't seen the videos, but I would have to suppose that there's a very great difference between a systematic use of terror (we must not lose sight of the gravity of that word) and an unarmed protest which, admittedly, caused some inconvenience and hurt some feelings (the latter of which is of more concern to me).

Also I hope you understand my being upset is deeply genuine and please respect me on that issue.
I think there's an opportunity here for understanding. I can see that you feel violated, and there's a genuine rage in response. This is not much different from the rage I feel when a Christian pastor, however well-meaning, insists that my experience of, and relationship with, God is simply irrelevant because I am an "unrepentant homosexual." I'm not yet able to articulate how deeply dehumanizing it feels to hear such words, especially from people who are supposed to embody the love of Christ.

The NCU community is, naturally and understandably, going to react first with self-defensiveness. Anyone would--I would if the tables were turned. During that phase, it's natural to view the opponent as entirely unjustified. But eventually the need to defend oneself passes. What happens then?

One of the ways I cope with my heartbreak over what Christianity has become is to ask myself, repeatedly, what do I not see clearly yet? People hold these views, and take harmful actions based on them, for a reason. Without understanding and addressing that reason, no progress is possible. Will NCU ask, "What do we not understand about our LGBT brothers and sisters in Christ?"

Now we're in a situation where NCU and the protesters have something in common--the feeling of being unfairly targeted, and powerless to stop it. This is a great foundation for bridges to be built, though it will take a very special person at NCU to begin that building. You might even be that person! For you can already see both sides more clearly than most at your school.

James

[tdogg]

Dash, you make a good point regarding the school receiving donations and having to be careful not to upset the donors and, therefore, lose them. Again, seems to boil down to 'its all about the :dollar:

Working for state government, I see the similarity with elected officials attempting to 'regulate' an industry that provides the them with significant campaign donations. It's almost impossible. So, while on the surface the blame may seem well laid onto the school's administration, they could very well be reacting strictly (and/or mainly) with what actions they feel are necessary to continue receiving much needed funding to run the school. Kinda "Catch 22" situation or even 'vicious circle'.

BTW, my girlfriend is a graduate of Northwestern U (although some years ago), attended on a full softball scholarship. She's such a jock! ;)

[tdogg]

Ok, I watched the 2 videos that Venari linked up (Mac at home but PC at work!), read the articles regarding the school paper editors being dismissed, and listened to Dr. Anderson.

I don't see any indication that anyone wants to change as far as the school administration goes. Perhaps some students want change while others don't? The videos did not demonstrate anything that I could attribute to creating hurt, nothing more than a minor inconvenience. It didn't show any of the Riders doing anything other than sitting in the entrance in front of the door (one person was actually in front of the doorway itself), calmly having a positive conversation with a student that appeared to support them. The only hurt or pain that I could think of happening to the students you talk about, perhaps is that issues regarding their own sexuality and/or their own stance on the subject is painfully brought to the forefront with the actions of the Riders.

The 'stuff' spewed forth by Dr. Anderson shows he has no inclination of allowing for any discussion of opinions other than the school policy and those opinions of the people who fund the school - again, this is proof it's all about the money.

The school newspaper editors being dismissed just confirms that the school administration is not about to let anything majorly controversial hit the papers and infiltrate the minds of the students - thereby, keeping a safe haven for school fund donors...again, all about the money.

Sorry Venari, in all the I've seen, read and heard on this thread, I just can't find anything to support what you are saying. I don't see anything that equates to an apology, only hate from the mouth of the Dr. But I'm glad you're here and praying for you all at NCU. Keep up the faith! :pray:

[pixeltarian]

It didn't show any of the Riders doing anything other than sitting in the entrance in front of the door (one person was actually in front of the doorway itself), calmly having a positive conversation with a student that appeared to support them.

The same student was in tears later. I was there. they blocked every door but one. I was there. so either you call me a liar now or you accept the fact that their mission was to block entrances. I saw people hurt. so call me a liar or accept that people were hurt.

[dewdrop_world]

The same student was in tears later. I was there. they blocked every door but one. I was there. so either you call me a liar now or you accept the fact that their mission was to block entrances. I saw people hurt. so call me a liar or accept that people were hurt.
I don't think anyone here is (or should be) denying that feelings were hurt.

I feel moved to quote myself from a couple of messages ago:

I think there's an opportunity here for understanding. I can see that you feel violated, and there's a genuine rage in response. This is not much different from the rage I feel when a Christian pastor, however well-meaning, insists that my experience of, and relationship with, God is simply irrelevant because I am an "unrepentant homosexual." I'm not yet able to articulate how deeply dehumanizing it feels to hear such words, especially from people who are supposed to embody the love of Christ.

The NCU community is, naturally and understandably, going to react first with self-defensiveness. Anyone would--I would if the tables were turned. During that phase, it's natural to view the opponent as entirely unjustified. But eventually the need to defend oneself passes. What happens then?

One of the ways I cope with my heartbreak over what Christianity has become is to ask myself, repeatedly, what do I not see clearly yet? People hold these views, and take harmful actions based on them, for a reason. Without understanding and addressing that reason, no progress is possible. Will NCU ask, "What do we not understand about our LGBT brothers and sisters in Christ?"

Now we're in a situation where NCU and the protesters have something in common--the feeling of being unfairly targeted, and powerless to stop it. This is a great foundation for bridges to be built, though it will take a very special person at NCU to begin that building.

James

[keltic63]

The same student was in tears later. I was there. they blocked every door but one. I was there. so either you call me a liar now or you accept the fact that their mission was to block entrances. I saw people hurt. so call me a liar or accept that people were hurt.

does it have to be either/or? I mean, I don't doubt that the student was crying, or even that the student was hurt. Could it be that the discussion brought up painful issues for the student? Could it be that the E Rider was candid and firm and perhaps spoke with such conviction and force, that the student felt intimidated?

I hesitate to use this illustration, but it seems appropriate. A few months ago, I took my youngest son to see the movie Hoodwinked. It's an animated re-telling of Little Red Riding Hood. The story is told 4 times, each by a different character who is suspected of being the "Goody Bandit" Each version of the story is radically different, yet each believes their version is truth. The kicker: each version is the truth, given the limited information that each character has. I think the same may be happening here. All of us have limited information about the story, including the student who was in tears. All of the versions could indeed be true according to the bits of information we have.

[themattperry]

The same student was in tears later. I was there. they blocked every door but one. I was there. so either you call me a liar now or you accept the fact that their mission was to block entrances. I saw people hurt. so call me a liar or accept that people were hurt.

Unless I'm mistaken, pixel, no one is calling you a liar. Also, no one is denying that people's feelings were hurt. Sometimes the truth can be uncomfortable.

Was the student really in tears because they "blocked all doors except one"? Or was there another more revealing reason?

Was it because the reality of the discrimination and injustice of her school was being revealed and it felt embarassing? Was it because she thought it was unfair for the riders to be at North Central? Was it because the peaceful status-quo of her campus was interrupted?

I don't doubt, as others have stated, that protests bring people out of their comfort zones. That is the point. That said, I do wish the student involved much peace, but also much truth and much courage.

Pixel, I wish you courage as well. Join us in speaking out -- North Central has already spoken and silenced silenced student dissent. Here again, is what president Anderson thinks in case anyone has any doubt:

http://www.nlnews.org/Anderson_9-16-05.mp3

Where is his retraction?

[Dash]

The same student was in tears later. I was there. they blocked every door but one. I was there. so either you call me a liar now or you accept the fact that their mission was to block entrances. I saw people hurt. so call me a liar or accept that people were hurt.

I must admit that as I watched the blond girl speaking with the Equality Riders sitting at the door--even through the filters of television and the internet--I saw someone riding the edge of all her strength. I'm not surprised that she was in tears afterwards. She looked to me to be someone who was doing her darnedest to meet the riders with Christian love.

I imagine that she was terrified and feeling awkwardly exposed. She was being filmed for goodness sake! Oy! I was hurting for her because I could tell how much she was holding in.

I can tell you also that I (me personally) would not have made the decision to block doorways. But, then again, I'm a scared rabbit in person...desperately introverted...the whole idea of going around the country to confront and protest is terrifying to me...I'd collapse after the first confrontation!

Which...is also why I admire the riders so much.

**********
I've been wanting to mention this for days, and haven't yet. This may not be the appropriate thread, but here goes...

I read a discussion (www.talk2action.org, I believe) about how organized the Christian "right" is, and why the "left" cannot organize as effectively. The reason they gave is playing out right here in this forum:

We all may agree about the ultimate message, but we never march in lock-step. We value dissent. We value the journey as much as the end. We question the veracity of every opinion...we don't know...and value that! We doubt our methods. We test ourselves and each other. So, we end up stumbling all over ourselves. All of this comes from the wonderful qualities that make up the individuals in our community. We are creative, compassionate, empathetic, emotional, unique, and we want fellows who are just as diverse and unique as each of us.

This is not the way the "right" functions. They present a world-view that is monolithic. They have a sacred, written charge to "make disciples of the whole world" ... to convert the whole world to "their way" of thinking. They value unity of thought rather than many diverse opinions. They offer rewards and punishments at the end of the journey. In fact, many of their exhortations are rooted in fear...the fear they feel and the fear they infuse in others. They "know" the answers and make a much clearer path to their goal.

In the end, one of these "world-views" is much more effective at organizing and maintaining action. Our own progress is hindered by our very nature. Alas!!:confused:

And...I'm sorry that the distinctions I'm making divide everything up into "us" and "them". But nonetheless there are some very real differences that are relevant to this debate.

[NathanATX]

We all may agree about the ultimate message, but we never march in lock-step. We value dissent. We value the journey as much as the end. We question the veracity of every opinion...we don't know...and value that! We doubt our methods. We test ourselves and each other. So, we end up stumbling all over ourselves. All of this comes from the wonderful qualities that make up the individuals in our community. We are creative, compassionate, empathetic, emotional, unique, and we want fellows who are just as diverse and unique as each of us.


GREAT post! What can we do to create a monolithic response? :)

[Venari]

Attack? Let's remember here the story about the little bird who thinks he's being dumped on by the cow. Ever hear of that one? The little bird is all upset that the cow has pooped on him. Well low and behold- while he's extricating himself and fussing about the actions of others a wolve comes along and eats him. The moral is: the person who you think is pooping on you may just be your friend.

Daniel,

Does that mean your a the cow Shi**ing on the weak or are you the wolf devouring the weak?

-Venari

[NCUap]

Hey,

I'm an NCU student. I really don't see how you guys can say you experienced "redemptive suffering at North Central University; Physical altercations begun by North Central Security." I guess we can just look to the news reel to see what that was like...I'm really confused on whose mind you are trying to change with this campaign, it really seems to me that at a lot of places the goal has been to get arrested. I know we have had groups here before who have just set up on the sidewalks and I have seen many students stop by and chat with them and find out where they are coming from... However, with this approach it gave students who might like to actually talk to you guys the choice between talking or going to class and with finals coming up in less than two weeks it is obvious why many chose to just stay inside. Over and over again we have been told by our president to love everyone at soulforce as brothers and sisters in Christ. I went to your guys' rally and it made me sad to see you who are Christians 'bashing' a good Christian man like our president and others who tried to show our love towards you. I mean I love you all with Christ's love just as I love my homosexual friends but a display like that just made me question the integrity of what is supposed to be a 'Christian' organization like Soulforce. I honestly now have problems holding any respect for your guys' organization.

[Venari]

Was it because the reality of the discrimination and injustice of her school was being revealed and it felt embarassing? Was it because she thought it was unfair for the riders to be at North Central? Was it because the peaceful status-quo of her campus was interrupted?

Having seen it with my own eyes it is not that the "discrimination and injustice" was in our faces, or that our peaceful status quo has been interrupted. It has been discussed and talked about for months now.

The reason people are hurt is because of the actions of the Equality Riders towards the students and the school. Plain and simple people are hurt for that reason.

-Venari

[dewdrop_world]

The reason people are hurt is because of the actions of the Equality Riders towards the students and the school. Plain and simple people are hurt for that reason.
I repeat my question:

What is it about the situation that you aren't seeing yet?

This may not be something you can answer today, but it's a crucial question.

And to repeat my challenge, what is the opportunity here for greater understanding?

Meant as rhetorical questions for now... but you should try to answer them, preferably while you still feel the urgency in your heart as you do now.

James

[Venari]

Venari, I just want you to know I'm praying for you and for your friend. It sounds like you both have a lot of fear about people finding out about your sexuality. It must have been quite a shock to see gay & lesbian people stand up for themselves in such a bold and unapologetic way.

Nathan,

I deeply respect you but this has nothing to do with it. There are several students who are open with their sexuality on campus... each to varying degrees.

The shock comes from seeing "gay & lesbian people stand up for themselves in such a bold and unapologetic way" and cause pain to an entire campus, several of who are GLBT. Its sad that they are unapologetic for hurting a number of people.

-Venari

[NathanATX]

I don't know if this applies or not, my mentor worked through this with me.

"I have just stabbed you... is it a good thing or a bad thing?"

My reaction was that it was a bad thing.

He responded, "what if I was a surgeon and was opening you up to remove a life threatening tumor? Good or bad?"

I think that relates to the situation you're describing. It's uncomfortable and maybe even painful to be confronted by someone who is standing up for their own dignity and equality. Is that pain good or bad?

[tdogg]

...please understand, I didn't say or imply anything about you in my post. There are no accusations - according to what I saw (videos that were linked in Venari's post), what I read and heard (links from another post) I didnt' see what you and Venari reported. Perhaps there was suffering and pain and hurt, but nothing that was posted or linked showed that, to me anyway.

Dewdrop, you have the right idea. What can we learn from this and how can we progress, those are the questions we need to be asking. And Venari, we all have the same questions, why are those who hurt others and cause them pain not apologetic - the GLBT community asks this now of those who hurt, slander, accuse, belittle, shame, and block our access to the doors of equality and humanity - where is their apology to us??? Good question. Keep in mind, the Equality Riders are feeling hurt and pain too, at their life experiences including one of them who was expelled from NCU. It doesn't sound like any apologies were forthcoming to that person/them.

Dash - you make excellent points. Maybe those of us who are posting here can try and look at our similarities instead of our differences, that could be a good start towards finding a common ground and having positive dialogue.

[NCUap]

Hey,
I'm not sure where to add this... so I'm just doing a quick reply on your post...but I read through the article about the visit to our campus and I wanted to note that our doors are always locked, not just for this such occassion. Only students and faculty have ID cards that will let them access the buildings.

[studying]

I just joined this website and must say that I find the methods of relentless activism a bit disconcerting. I am actively seeking to understand what the LGBTQ community actually wants of "Christians."

There are many other ways to form religious movements than to force your views on people that do not share them.

Mormons have never forced their way into schools or colleges demanding that their religious opinions be accepted by those that will not accept what they view as a different Gospel. A different religion.

Ae there not many biblical texts to support the disapproval of homosexuality?

Yes, Jesus obviously would accept anyone; but are there not clear boundaries? There are far more Biblical texts to disagree with on-going homosexual behavior than just the few we see bantered about and they shouldn't be viewed through the lens of political correctness. Jesus wasn't politically correct and none of the Apostles were either.

"I" as a Christian, do not support the method being employed by Soulforce to bust their way into "anyplace," to try to get a message across. There is too much freedom of choice in where you can go to school or to worship, to advocate others (Christians) to accept the "forcing" of homosexuality into a Christian body of believers.

I feel the backlash will be that Soulforce is not tolerant of the freedom of others to worship according to the dictates of their conscience, and before God, which everyone has to give an account. I viewed the news reel and was shocked that students were being forced and harrassed to learn opinions and veiws that are ubiquituos, and that they know very much about. This is not 1960.

This is not a political/social issue between Christians. The Christians holding to the scripture about marriage, holiness and sexual purity are not bigots, hateful or phobic. They are just following the clear teachings of the New Testament writers. Some of which are uncannily accurate for today 2006.

Christian Universities should not be the target of LGBTQ activism.

That is my opinion. I welcome input.

[hpets05]

I also am a current student at NCU and I share the feelings of NCUap. From the information that I have about yesterday's events, and what I personally saw, I don't see how Soulforce Riders were in any way physically harmed. I have, on the other hand, spoken with many of my friends here who were not able to get into buildings because Riders were sitting in front of them and said to these students "you aren't letting GLBT people into your school today, so i'm not going to let you inside either" How this declaration makes any sense I cannot tell. We pay to go here, and it is a closed campus ALL OF THE TIME. Soulforce knew, before they came here, that they were not invited to come into any buildings. This was discussed before the visit took place. It was clearly stated. So...why was there a spectacle about all of this? It makes me question the true motives of Soulforce, at least how they were used and seen yesterday. I also know from one of our security guards that a student was hurt when she was trying to leave one of the school's buildings. This does not help the cause of Soulforce either, but instead turns people away. As students here, we were encouraged to accept the Riders with love as brothers and sisters in the faith. The administration was taking a stance that they feel is necessary, to avoid disruption of the school day and to hold up to the biblical principles that this school is founded upon. If the mission of Soulforce is to bring respect for all people...wouldn't it also respect this school?

The entire day has caused many of us to think about the real agenda behind Soulforce...and question their real motives.

If the message is love in Christ, I have to say...I did not see that example from the Riders yesterday.

[NathanATX]

I also am a current student at NCU and I share the feelings of NCUap. From the information that I have about yesterday's events, and what I personally saw, I don't see how Soulforce Riders were in any way physically harmed. I have, on the other hand, spoken with many of my friends here who were not able to get into buildings because Riders were sitting in front of them and said to these students "you aren't letting GLBT people into your school today, so i'm not going to let you inside either" How this declaration makes any sense I cannot tell. We pay to go here, and it is a closed campus ALL OF THE TIME. Soulforce knew, before they came here, that they were not invited to come into any buildings. This was discussed before the visit took place. It was clearly stated. So...why was there a spectacle about all of this? It makes me question the true motives of Soulforce, at least how they were used and seen yesterday. I also know from one of our security guards that a student was hurt when she was trying to leave one of the school's buildings. This does not help the cause of Soulforce either, but instead turns people away. As students here, we were encouraged to accept the Riders with love as brothers and sisters in the faith. The administration was taking a stance that they feel is necessary, to avoid disruption of the school day and to hold up to the biblical principles that this school is founded upon. If the mission of Soulforce is to bring respect for all people...wouldn't it also respect this school?

The entire day has caused many of us to think about the real agenda behind Soulforce...and question their real motives.

If the message is love in Christ, I have to say...I did not see that example from the Riders yesterday.


"you aren't letting GLBT people into your school today, so i'm not going to let you inside either"

To me they are saying they are going to give you only one day of what might be like to be openly gay on your campus.

Were you physically harmed or simply inconvenienced?

Maybe instead of thinking along the lines of "how dare they impose themselves on us"... maybe think about what it might actually be like to be gay or lesbian at your school. Maybe that will bring some compassion up for you.

[studying]

"you aren't letting GLBT people into your school today, so i'm not going to let you inside either"

So harrassing people is OK?

To me they are saying they are going to give you only one day of what might be like to be openly gay on your campus.

They were free to go anywhere they wished that does openly accpet them. mormons would not have been allowed to do what the LGBTQ activists did. Mormons started their own religion.

Were you physically harmed or simply inconvenienced?

The same applies to anyone, no matter their sexual orientation. Soulforce is not going about their mission in the correct way.

Maybe instead of thinking along the lines of "how dare they impose themselves on us"... maybe think about what it might actually be like to be gay or lesbian at your school.

How about a Christian in a secular world? Not everyone sees things through sexuality. I thought the soulforce activists were about "freedom?"

Maybe that will bring some compassion up for you.

Compassion is a two-street. It also goes in two different directions.

[Venari]

To me they are saying they are going to give you only one day of what might be like to be openly gay on your campus.

Were you physically harmed or simply inconvenienced?

Maybe instead of thinking along the lines of "how dare they impose themselves on us"... maybe think about what it might actually be like to be gay or lesbian at your school. Maybe that will bring some compassion up for you.

Nathan,

That raises the question who are they to teach that lesson? If it is the Equality Ride is it because of the claims of one former student, claims that are highly questionable to say the least. Or is the equality ride listening to the voices of the current students.

Or maybe Soulforce knows better then we do and we never knew we needed you to come and show us the light?

Regardless of the why the issue remains many students were hurt, I knew of emotional pain from being harassed and threatened and now some students are coming forward with physical injuries from the actions the Equality Riders took.

So my question is how many students need to get hurt before the manner in which the Equality Riders conduced themselves is inappropriate. To me one student getting hurt, emotional or physically, is one too many... that is unless you take the stance the school is wrong in hurting GLBT people so the Equality Ride is justified in causing pain to the students.

-Venari

[Daniel]

Daniel,

Does that mean your a the cow Shi**ing on the weak or are you the wolf devouring the weak?

-Venari

You decide. After all, the Kingdom is Within, isn't it?

I wish you much peace and joy on your journey.

[themattperry]

Nathan,
Regardless of the why the issue remains many students were hurt, I knew of emotional pain from being harassed and threatened and now some students are coming forward with physical injuries from the actions the Equality Riders took.
-Venari


Venari,

I really have to say that the stuff about physical injuries sounds like a total load of you-know-what to me. You have a history of vague and -- upon further investigation -- false accuasions agains SF personel here on these boards. Please immediately produce evidence of these physical injuries or withdraw your implied charge. You know as well as anyone that SF is a NON VIOLENT organization. If their action produced physical injury, then we have a serious problem and I need to look into my support for the action yesterday.

As far as hurt feelings, I do not doubt that feelings were hurt. But feelings are often hurt by non-violent means. No one wants the status quo they've built and relied on to be interrupted.

Also, you are very correct -- no one ASKED the students of North Central if SF could come on campus. SF INVITED the community of North Central to participate in the visit, but the equality ride's visit was not a negotiable item --- it was going to happen whether you or anyone else wanted it to. That is the nature of direct action. And sometimes it does not feel good.

I want to find common ground here -- but that is predicated on all of us telling the truth... me included. If you have evidence that the equality ride's visit to your school resulted in physical injury to the students at your school then please let us know where we can find out more about that. I need to know.

Please provide the details or withdraw your accusation.

Thanks

Matt

[Venari]

I really have to say that the stuff about physical injuries sounds like a total load of you-know-what to me. You have a history of vague and -- upon further investigation -- false accuasions agains SF personel here on these boards. Please immediately produce evidence of these physical injuries or withdraw your implied charge. You know as well as anyone that SF is a NON VIOLENT organization. If their action produced physical injury, then we have a serious problem and I need to look into my support for the action yesterday.

Matt,

Funny thing is I think the same of you. I believe you spin facts to give favour to the image of Soulforce. With the issues of the schools allowing the Equality Ride to visit verse not. So in light it is you who is providing false information; you who recite what Soulforce tells you or me who seeks out and speaks to the other parties involved?

What proof can I offer except what another student who posted here said was someone was injured because of the riders blocking a door and a few other students, one which I spoke to, claims one of the riders shoved them to prevent them from entering the building.

So what do you want from me? Pictures, a video ... what? I am only relaying what other students have said.


Please provide the details or withdraw your accusation.

No I do not withdraw my statement, I heard it from fellow students who have more credibility with me then Soulforce does at this time. So why don’t you prove me wrong and ask the students what happened then coming here accusing me of providing false information ... which to me I proved you wrong and another person backed me up... and put your money where your mouth is and prove the students that have posted here that harassment and intimidation did not occur and at some students claim to have been injured by the actions of the equality riders.

-Venari

[Joe Brummer]

Venari,

I really have to say that the stuff about physical injuries sounds like a total load of you-know-what to me. You have a history of vague and -- upon further investigation -- false accuasions agains SF personel here on these boards. Please immediately produce evidence of these physical injuries or withdraw your implied charge. You know as well as anyone that SF is a NON VIOLENT organization. If their action produced physical injury, then we have a serious problem and I need to look into my support for the action yesterday.

As far as hurt feelings, I do not doubt that feelings were hurt. But feelings are often hurt by non-violent means. No one wants the status quo they've built and relied on to be interrupted.

Also, you are very correct -- no one ASKED the students of North Central if SF could come on campus. SF INVITED the community of North Central to participate in the visit, but the equality ride's visit was not a negotiable item --- it was going to happen whether you or anyone else wanted it to. That is the nature of direct action. And sometimes it does not feel good.

I want to find common ground here -- but that is predicated on all of us telling the truth... me included. If you have evidence that the equality ride's visit to your school resulted in physical injury to the students at your school then please let us know where we can find out more about that. I need to know.

Please provide the details or withdraw your accusation.

Thanks

Matt


Okay then, lets us not resort to attacking Venari! Although I can see your post is well intended and you raise some good points. It is always important to remian nonviolent not only in protests but in dialog. I know you all might think I am the "nonviolence Police" but I really feel it is important we remain nonviolent even in our posts. SoulForce puts itself out there as a group whose mission includes nonviolence, if we are going to support them, then we too, should be nonviolent.

Joe

[themattperry]

With the issues of the schools allowing the Equality Ride to visit verse not. So in light it is you who is providing false information; you who recite what Soulforce tells you or me who seeks out and speaks to the other parties involved?

Venari,

Ouch, I'm not going to have a flame war with you here .... regarding our previous disagreement, we obviously disagree about who was correct. I provided extensive, sourced information in that thread in support of my arguments. You did not. You characterized some of the Californian schools as unwelcoming of the Equality Ride. The San Francisco Chronicle and officials at the schools themselves contradicted you in articles I linked. I did not spin, I backed up my arguments with real third-party sources. We sort of left it there, and I'm happy to put that thread to rest if you are. Speaking honestly, it was not constructive for me to make reference to our previous interactions, and for that I apologize.


What proof can I offer except what another student who posted here said was someone was injured because of the riders blocking a door and a few other students, one which I spoke to, claims one of the riders shoved them to prevent them from entering the building.

So what do you want from me? Pictures, a video ... what? I am only relaying what other students have said.

No I do not withdraw my statement, I heard it from fellow students who have more credibility with me then Soulforce does at this time. So why don’t you prove me wrong and ask the students what happened then coming here accusing me of providing false information ... which to me I proved you wrong and another person backed me up... and put your money where your mouth is and prove the students that have posted here that harassment and intimidation did not occur and at some students claim to have been injured by the actions of the equality riders.


I am under absolutely NO obligation to prove that physical injury or anything else DID NOT happen at your school the other day. You, and anyone else making the accusation is obligated to substantiate such a serious charge. That is how it works -- we don't get to fling serious, defaming accusations around and then have them stick unless proven otherwise ... Coming on here and accusing ER of causing injury is simply too serious and inflamatory a satement to be backed up only by a "I heard from so-and-so who heard from so-and-so" sort of justification. So far I have only heard vaguaries.

Let me be clear: If indeed a rider shoved or otherwise intetionally physically harmed a North Central Student, I will work to see that this member of the ride is removed from the ride. I am dead serious about this. Such an action would be a betrayal of everything I support about the ride. To do that I need just a few simple details -- no videos or anything like that just: Who got shoved by whom? When did it happen and how? What injury resulted? Can anyone answer these questions instead of floating vague, but extremely serious accusations? If so, then I will join in calling for that rider's immediate removal from the ride. Just post the info ... I will email the rider and the organizers today!

Would you be willing to join me in finding out the truth here Venari?

Peace to us all this evening.

Matt

[pxlguy]

OK, let me say again, that I think the work being put forth by the Equality Riders is basically noble in it's cause. I think it is great to see people stand up for that in which they believe. However, after viewing the video, and based on a number of responses here in our forum, we need to assess how this is all going to be played out by the mainstream media. Scenes such as this only reinforce the negative thinking that prevails among many people about gays and gay rights in general. Not only does this kind of behavior have zero impact on "changing" things. It simply further alienates those whom we are trying to change. We need to remember that these students' first objective is trying to obtain an education for themselves. No matter what their sexual preference may be, that is a secondary issue, and education should be the first and primary objective of these students. May I remind each of you that none of these Christian schools are on a "witch hunt" to seek out gay people. As long as the students follow the universities' code of conduct while they are in attendance, they will not be singled out. Straight people, too, are expected to follow the same code of conduct, and if they do not, they are susequently expelled, just the same as a gay person would. There are no differences here, folks. Everyone is held accountable to the same standards of conduct. Simply put, if anyone, regardless of sexual orientation is uncomfortable with, or cannot conform to the rules set down by these Christian universities, then they are in the wrong place, and should go to another school to which they will more readily adapt. Why is that such a difficult concept to understand? The world is not always going to agree with us, no matter what we do, or what the subject. The sooner we learn that the world is not a perfect place, the better off we all become. I think alot of gays are looking for a "one size fits all" model. Things just don't work this way. If I were a pastor of ABC church, and decided that I was going to open up my own post-secondary educational center, shouldn't I be allowed to set my own requirements for the school based on my faith, and the faith of my worshipers who are supporting it? These schools are not asking secullar society to support their organization, they are doing it independently and voluntarily. When a student pays tuition to attend these schools, they attend full-well knowing there is a philosophical issue involved. And, if these schools then permit openly gay students to attend and participate in campus life, against their own established philosophies, how soon will it be before the schools are called upon to teach that abortion is ok, or that infidelity is a part of the human experience, for example? If these schools dissolve their values, then where is the opportunity for choices in the educational experience? Then we are right back at a "one size fits all" attitude. Suppose that a smoker rents an apartment in a non-smoking apartment building. One day he decides, enough is enough! He thinks to himself, that he is paying his good, hard-earned money to live in that apartment, and he thinks, to hell with it, I'll smoke if I want to. Other people in the apartment complex begin to compain about the smell of smoke wafting through the air, and sure enough, the culprit is cause, and summarily evicted from the premises. While his philosophy may be right, he also knew the rules before he moved in. He is not being discriminated against, he is simply being held accountable to the rules and regulations of the place, rules to which he agreed to abide by to begin with. His neighbors moved into this apartment complex because they wanted to be away from a smoking environment. Likewise, the vast majority of students in Christian schools go to these schools for the benefit of receiving an education filtered through their beliefs. I must say, that I admire the Equality Riders for their strong convictions, and their desire to make a difference. And I think they should continue to spread their message of inclusion and continue their work, because it is homorable to stand up and be accounted and take a stand for one's beliefs. But don't you think you can pursue your activism without trespassing on others' territory? The message should promote a peaceful exchange, not hostile tirade among opposing groups. And if there are those of you who cannot see this, well, I don't think I am going to get through to you, anyway.

[themattperry]

Okay then, lets us not resort to attacking Venari! Although I can see your post is well intended and you raise some good points. It is always important to remian nonviolent not only in protests but in dialog. I know you all might think I am the "nonviolence Police" but I really feel it is important we remain nonviolent even in our posts. SoulForce puts itself out there as a group whose mission includes nonviolence, if we are going to support them, then we too, should be nonviolent.

Joe

I apologize from bringing up a pervious disagreement that I had with Venari -- that was inappropriate and not constructive, and I'm sorry. It was also counter to the way I wish to view "adversaries" (as the credo talks about them) Sometimes I tend to get argumentative. Venari and everyone else , I hope you will forgive me for that.

The rest of the post I stand by. I am seeking TRUTH here, and I simply wish to know if violence occured at North Central. The presence of TRUTH is a requirement for non-violent action. When Venari comes along and claims that physical injury occured, this concerns me, because I wish to ensure that the SF I support is devoid of violence, and would call for some action and healing on the part of SF if indeed violence of any kind occured. The enemy of us all is untruth, and I tend to get somewhat zealous in its presence, or when I think it might be around ....

All I ask, and I am not ashamed to ask this, is that accusations of this sort against the Riders simply be SUBSTANTIATED or WITHDRAWN. I am willing -- with God's help -- to live with the truth wherever it may take us.

Untrue accusations are in fact violent. And I will resist them.

Joe, thanks for your grounding post.

[Venari]

Would you be willing to join me in finding out the truth here Venari?


Matt,

The point of this thread was to address the very real/perceived harassment and intimidation of NCU students by the Equality Riders. Also to address the actions the riders took wile at the school.

Frankly I came here because I want answers why this occurred. All I can say is what I saw and what other told me they saw... several students have posted here stating the same, I wasn’t even the first student to bring up how a student claimed injury as a result of blocking the doors or being shoved.

These are issues that are vital to be addressed and discussed. We were expecting one thing and we faced another.

-Venari

[Venari]

Daniel,

Does that mean your a the cow Shi**ing on the weak or are you the wolf devouring the weak?

-Venari

I want to apologize to Daniel for this comment. While we have had a disagreement I want over the top on this on. No matter how I felt about his comment to me I was completely in the wrong to respond in such a way. I deeply and sincerely apologize.

-Venari

[themattperry]

Matt,

The point of this thread was to address the very real/perceived harassment and intimidation of NCU students by the Equality Riders. Also to address the actions the riders took wile at the school.

Frankly I came here because I want answers why this occurred. All I can say is what I saw and what other told me they saw... several students have posted here stating the same, I wasn’t even the first student to bring up how a student claimed injury as a result of blocking the doors or being shoved.

These are issues that are vital to be addressed and discussed. We were expecting one thing and we faced another.

-Venari

I agree with you almost all the way Venari -- let's find out what actually happened. As I said, if violence occured, then I will need to take action myself. I would love to join you in discovering what happened. So far, I just have not seen any evidence or even any story about a specific act of physical violence. As soon as I do, please believe me, I will act.

In fact, should a specific act of violence come to light, I would like to invite you to write a letter of protest to SoulForce with me Venari. Maybe we can, as a way of finding common ground and healing in this, compose this letter together to SF to ask that it stop perpetrating violence. This is not a ploy. This is a serious invitation that, should a specific act come to light, I'd love to write this letter in all humility with you asking that the violence not be repeated, and the people involved be held accountable.

[Daniel]

OK, let me say again, that I think the work being put forth by the Equality Riders is basically noble in it's cause. I think it....

pxlguy,

At the risk of being the Paragraph Police, could you please create a least a few breaks in your posts? This reader wants to know your views but finds it very hard slogging when it's one long sentence.

Paragraph Police
Second 3, Unit 4

[Dash]

When a student pays tuition to attend these schools, they attend full-well knowing there is a philosophical issue involved

Now, friend, I responded to the basic thrust of your argument in another thread. You didn't respond there. If you want to understand our perspective, I think it is only fair that you participate in this discussion in a straightforward way.

Yet...many students go where their parents tell them...or where their parents will help them financially. This is the case with my friend Kim who was sent to Bob Jones University. She was not gay, but endured her time there until the day she could, quite literally, be free. What of the young gay student? What of the student who doesn't realize yet they are gay?

What of the student who has some understanding of their sexuality, but is deeply religious, and still believes that Christian school is a very appropriate option? They enroll in hope, but their internal struggles continue or intensify rather than abate.

For a young 18 year-old (or 17, as I was) those first college choices are not always based on the kind of self-knowledge and resources that you are considering. Quite frankly, I wouldn't have gone to college at all, except that I got a full-ride to a state school based on my academic record. You see how the choices are sometimes made for us?

The fight is not EVER for those who have the power to control their situation, my friends. God is the God of the outcast, the weak, the powerless, and the oppressed, and those are who we as Christians stand up for.

It may not be for ourselves. For everyone of you who were empowered to make these choices...there are others who had none, or whose circumstances changed...or who (yes, it also happens to young people) made a mistake.

There follows in that thread another posting from a Wheaton graduate. Surely our honest responses deserve the respect of your attention. Let us know what you think about our position...tell us why it is fallacious...whatever. But to just repeat and reiterate your position...on a different thread... Is that a good discussion? Why should anyone respond to your posts, if you don't give attention to their replies?

----------------

You use the analogy above of a renter who decides he wants to smoke in a non-smoking facility. This analogy relies on the common argument that homosexuality is just a decision that people make. That kind of thinking is generally going to be received poorly in this forum. I think you are probably aware of that.

The bigger problem I have with your reasoning (and this is my theme of the night) is the disingenuous statements that float around such as:

As long as the students follow the universities' code of conduct while they are in attendance, they will not be singled out. Straight people, too, are expected to follow the same code of conduct, and if they do not, they are susequently expelled, just the same as a gay person would. There are no differences here, folks. Everyone is held accountable to the same standards of conduct.

Now, I think you know there is a difference, and to say there is not is a pretense that masquarades as good reasoning. The truth is...heterosexuals receive no condemnation for their sexuality. Lesbians, gays and bisexuals on the other hand are roundly condemned by these Christian institutions as being comparable to such things as pedophilia, murder, rape, etc.

Maybe we can all listen again to president Anderson (of North Central) compare us to pedophiles and practitioners of bestiality and then, in his final words, threaten us with hell if we disagree with him: here's the MP3 just in case:

http://www.nlnews.org/Anderson_9-16-05.mp3

I understand that he later apologized, but do I really think his opinion changed? Doubtful. These awful comparisons are made again and again by anti-gay Christians, and we will constantly have to weed our garden of them.

These schools want to make it appear that all things are equal in terms of the way they treat gays and straights, when in fact they are not. No one is cursing heterosexuals for their very nature.

This pernicious attitude that suffuses right-wing Christianity--as well as these institutions that the Equality Riders are protesting--filters down into society in a most harmful way. Those who hold and teach such attitudes like to say (again disingenuously) that they do not promote violence. And when gays, lesbians, transgendered folk and bisexuals are being beaten, shot, or otherwise experience violence from people who sincerely believe that God hates us, they cry and weep...as if they didn't plant the seeds of that hatred in society that now blossoms into pain for us.

sigh...I'm tired of writing now...Your turn. :p

[And...please. I second Daniel's request. hahah...put in some paragraph breaks! :-) I'm getting a headache from trying to track your substantial posts.]

[Joe Brummer]

I think the conversation between Matt and Venari is going very well. I applaud both of you for remaining in a nonviolent space, Gandhi believed that apologizes were a source of enlightenment. I am gald to see you are both engaging that. I also think you are two are on to something, and both seek the truth (me too!). I would encourage you both to not be distracted by the other conversations happening, and concentrate on this good dialog you have going. If need be remove yourselves and go to PM's. It is a good conversation with much to be gained!

Peace and love,
Joe

[pxlguy]

OK, guys. Sorry to make your reading difficult. Sometimes my fingers work faster than my thinking; or maybe its the other way around; or maybe they are in are race to see who can get what out first. Who knows? At any rate, I'll try to cut some breaks in here. Sorry.

COLOR="Blue"]"What of the student who has some understanding of their sexuality, but is deeply religious, and still believes that Christian school is a very appropriate option? They enroll in hope, but their internal struggles continue or intensify rather than abate."[/COLOR][/COLOR]

Again, it is about choices. If the person believes that a Christian school is an appropriate option, at least they will learn that is not for them, and they can transfer to another school that better meets their needs. They must decide which road to take. Obviously, some gay Christians can, and do, navigate their way through these institutions. And while it is true that perhaps, people's circumstances change, with perseverance, determination, and God's help, people do overcome obstacles that may clutter their way.

"Now, I think you know there is a difference, and to say there is not is a pretense that masquarades as good reasoning. The truth is...heterosexuals receive no condemnation for their sexuality."

I think your above statement is true. Now, I don't want to get into semantics here, but we are not talking just about sexuality. We are talking about sexual behavior. And that is what gets both straights and gays in trouble in these schools. And I don't know of any of these Christian schools that condone any kind sexual behavior outside the realm of marriage. But many would say that gays cannot marry, so that negates that idea. But if you think about it, the majority of college students are not married anyway. And the rules would be applied equally to both straigh guys engaged in sexual activity just the same as it would to gay guys.

"Lesbians, gays and bisexuals on the other hand are roundly condemned by these Christian institutions as being comparable to such things as pedophilia, murder, rape, etc."

I have never heard gays, lesbians and bisexuals being compared to murderers. And Christians would be hard-pressed to make a comparative to pedophiles, considering all the priests found out within their own inner sanctums. True, some radicals will make statements such as these. But the sources are highly suspect to begin with.

Originally Posted by theMattPerry :
Maybe we can all listen again to president Anderson (of North Central) compare us to pedophiles and practitioners of bestiality and then, in his final words, threaten us with hell if we disagree with him: here's the MP3 just in case:

And as we all know, there are people who actually believe these sorts of lies, but are we ourselves not intelligent enough to discern the truth, and realize that these are personal beliefs and are not Christian-based theological truths? And when 95% of the rest of the population basically believes this is crock, what will we actually believe? Now, let me be clear: I do not approve of such statements, and are, in MY opinion, not christian-based, and neither are they Christ-like words. But I still believe that each person has a right to their own beliefs, and we, in turn, also have a right to interpret how we view those beliefs.

"You use the analogy above of a renter who decides he wants to smoke in a non-smoking facility. This analogy relies on the common argument that homosexuality is just a decision that people make."

This was not my point, I think you misunderstood my intent here. We all know that homosexuality is not a decision one makes, like turning a faucet off and on. My point is that the choices we make in the context of who we are affects how people view us. For example, my parents would never allow me to bring home a boy and sleep in the same bed with him, and I would never do that out of having respect for my parents. But when I am in my own space, that belongs to me, they, in turn, would never tell me that I cannot do that. If I choose to usurp my parents in their own home, then I know I had better be prepared for whatever consequences that might entail. And the same concept applies when attending college. When I am on campus, I must follow the rules, or face the consequences of non-compliance. When I am off campus, I am no longer under the schools' administration, and what I do then is my choice, which has no effect on the school itself.

"Those who hold and teach such attitudes like to say (again disingenuously) that they do not promote violence. And when gays, lesbians, transgendered folk and bisexuals are being beaten, shot, or otherwise experience violence from people who sincerely believe that God hates us, they cry and weep...as if they didn't plant the seeds of that hatred in society that now blossoms into pain for us."

I would tend to disagree with this statement. It is not Christians who plant such seeds as this, I mean, there are many people who have something against someone, and it is not necessarily based on religion. I think we all live in a crazy, mixed-up, not so pretty world, where anything can pretty much happen to anyone at any time. Sure, the far-right wing espouses a hatred, but most people understand that they are living on the fringe, anyway. We can only be fortunate that there are not more Fred Phelps types in the world.

[closetcougar]

Yeah, maybe we should just sit back and let these religious universities decide when we should have the same rights everybody else has.:rolleyes:. I'm sure they were almost coming around until soulforce screwed things up.:rolleyes:

[Dash]

Sure, the far-right wing espouses a hatred, but most people understand that they are living on the fringe, anyway.

Well...perhaps I'm too tuned-in to the the rhetoric of groups like Focus on the Family. I read a lot of GLBT news and blogs, and see their kind of "fringe-babble" again and again. Or perhaps you aren't encountering all the things that are actually being said in our society about us. I think perhaps it would be good for you to take a closer look at the dreadful mass of anti-gay commentary that comes out of the religious right. Just think how much it informs the political process! I think if you followed all the states that are looking at anti-gay marriage legislation you would get a better picture of how religious rhetoric pollutes our society with damaging hatred.

We may just disagree on the issue of the Church's puritanism informing society's hatred of our sexuality. I guess that's ok, but that will probably hinder our ability to find any common ground regarding the motives, purposes and methods of the Equality Riders. For me, my support of them is based on this larger aspect of the Church's influence on society as well as the individual pain that some people experience within the universities. I feel the two sides of the sword are inseparable, and both cut our people deeply.

I'm glad if I mis-understood the intent of your analogy. Your clarification makes me feel better.:cool:

Reading your response about people transferring out of these schools made me think: what if instead of expelling students that are gay or struggling, they addressed the issue but assisting them in a transfer to another school? :love:

[themattperry]

I think the conversation between Matt and Venari is going very well. I applaud both of you for remaining in a nonviolent space, Gandhi believed that apologizes were a source of enlightenment. I am gald to see you are both engaging that. I also think you are two are on to something, and both seek the truth (me too!). I would encourage you both to not be distracted by the other conversations happening, and concentrate on this good dialog you have going. If need be remove yourselves and go to PM's. It is a good conversation with much to be gained!

Peace and love,
Joe

Thanks Joe --

I think we are on to something too. Perhaps I will send Venari a P message tomorrow to see if he about and/or if he's found out anything more about what happened at the school

Is it unreasonable to suppose that if physical violence occured we would be hearing from North Central right about now?

I'll be on the lookout for other sources of information -- anyone who has any first hand knowledge please let me know.

The search for truth together continues!

[Joe Brummer]

Remember that all the "facts" fly about and somewhere in that lies truth. The ultimate search for god, is the search for truth. I pray you both find it, but I believe you two have a productive conversation going and at all costs that dialog should continue........Anything less would be violence.

[dewdrop_world]

Had some other thoughts today (hindsight is a wonderful thing). I wondered what creative responses NCU students might have come up with before ER's appearance. If the administration declared the doors closed, I would love to have seen what would happen if some NCU students invited the riders in as their personal guests, to have lunch or something. Would the administration have been able to stop it?

We saw this from students at Liberty -- even when they were advised not to have any contact with the riders, some of them went out anyway. So it may have been a missed opportunity at NCU. That's not to minimize the hurt feelings, but I'm wondering if the students really had no choice but to passively accept the administration's position.

James

[Venari]

I wondered what creative responses NCU students might have come up with before ER's appearance. If the administration declared the doors closed, I would love to have seen what would happen if some NCU students invited the riders in as their personal guests, to have lunch or something. Would the administration have been able to stop it?

So it may have been a missed opportunity at NCU. That's not to minimize the hurt feelings, but I'm wondering if the students really had no choice but to passively accept the administration's position.

Dewdrop,

First I want to say NCU is always a closed campus. For the fact all the buildings have classrooms and dorms. So it is extremely rare for any outside group to be allowed access to any building besides the CLC, College Life Center, which is where Nate Ruch gave his interviews that day and where the administration offices are held.

I know many students were planning out reaching out to the Equality Riders. But when things went the way they did the plans were scrapped. Above that the students were asked not to interact with the Equality Riders but were not prohibited from doing so... this was more to preventive as to warn students if we made a scene we would face consequences, that is if any student went out there and started a yelling match.

So we were in a rock and a hard place, we couldn’t allow a group who’s motives were suspect access to the buildings where students were housed and we were cautious about interactions that if one side started a confrontation.

As I said before I would be more then willing to organize student leaders to sit down the Jacob and Herrin and talk about what they feel and what we fell to gather a better understanding. I know several gay and lesbian students that would be willing to do so. But I cannot seek them out to arrange such a meeting.

-Venari

[dewdrop_world]

Venari,

Thanks for the explanation. I didn't understand the physical restrictions.

Mostly I was wondering what would have happened if some students, prior to ER's arrival, had contacted the ride with the message, "Despite what our administration says, we want to meet with you and have a dialogue, off-campus if need be." My guess is that it would have been well received and it might have prevented the more demonstrative action (though I can't say so for sure). I know at least that if I were on the bus, a little gesture of defiance from the students in advance would have carried a lot of weight with me.

I hope I won't be misunderstood--I understand the feelings of isolation and anger (I would feel the same if some anti-gay people decided to picket my house). While I understand the motivation for the action, I'm pretty conflicted about it as well. To my misgivings, I feel I must add the regret that there was not a creative response from the students in time to change the situation.

James

[Venari]

Mostly I was wondering what would have happened if some students, prior to ER's arrival, had contacted the ride with the message, "Despite what our administration says, we want to meet with you and have a dialogue, off-campus if need be." My guess is that it would have been well received and it might have prevented the more demonstrative action (though I can't say so for sure). I know at least that if I were on the bus, a little gesture of defiance from the students in advance would have carried a lot of weight with me.

From what I know a few students e-mailed Jacob and Herrin and offered their "inside" view point and were given the brush off.

Also we had planned to "reach out” but after some of the things said about NCU before the visit we decided against it. As I said before I would now be willing to gather student representatives and meet with them to discuss what happened. But any deeper involvement is pretty much out of the question at the moment.

-Venari