Can someone help me?

[Teddybearlover]

Ok, I recently was at church camp and out of curiosity asked a youth pastor where in the bible It says Gay is bad. He brought up Romans 1;25-30. At the time I was to tired to really pay attention, but last night I reread it and now I am confused. I am extremely religious and a firm believer in the Bible but what read confused and disturbed me. So if some one can read it and ensure me that it is still OK to be Gay(Preferably with scripture) That would be so great...Thanks.:confused:

[Steven E. Webster]

Here's a resource on the Soulforce website:

http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible

There are alot of disputes about whether the Bible is properly translated and also whether what it says from and about ancient culture can be directly applied to modern culture without careful thought.

Steven Webster

[Rick336]

Ok, I recently was at church camp and out of curiosity asked a youth pastor where in the bible It says Gay is bad. He brought up Romans 1;25-30. At the time I was to tired to really pay attention, but last night I reread it and now I am confused. I am extremely religious and a firm believer in the Bible but what read confused and disturbed me. So if some one can read it and ensure me that it is still OK to be Gay(Preferably with scripture) That would be so great...Thanks.:confused:


If you're having questions about the Bible and homosexuality, I highly recommend the movie, For the Bible Tells Me So. You can probably find it at Blockbuster or most other movie rental stores. Or you can order it on line.

There's also a book by the same title that is sold at Borders Books. This could save you years of needless anguish from confusing misinformation about homosexuality.

Here's the link to the movie website:

http://www.forthebibletellsmeso.org/indexb.htm

Rick

[u-dog]

Hi TBL,

The resources that were suggested above are excellent ones and I recommend them. I also think that Virginia Ramey Mollencotts book "Is the Homosexual My neighbor" though older now is very good.

Here is how I understand the Romans passage. I credit Robert Jewitt (sp?) with most of this. He was and may still be a professor of new testament studies at Garrett Theological Seminary and is (I think) a Methodist.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of those who by their wickedness suppress the truth. 19For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20Ever since the creation of the world his eternal power and divine nature, invisible though they are, have been understood and seen through the things he has made. So they are without excuse; 21for though they knew God, they did not honour him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their senseless minds were darkened. 22Claiming to be wise, they became fools; 23and they exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling a mortal human being or birds or four-footed animals or reptiles.


Ok... so in this paragraph Paul tells us what the whole argument is really about. Its about the fact that humanity (especially non-jewish or "gentile" humanity) is prone to IDOLATRY or worshipping as a god something that isn't GOD.

24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the degrading of their bodies among themselves, 25because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen.

So... in response to (or as a consequence of) this idolatry, God has acted and "given them up" to self-degradation. So the "sin" that Paul is uncovering is idolatry and "self-degradation" is the result.

26 For this reason God gave them up to degrading passions. Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error.

Paul is referring to SOMETHING that is going on in Roman society. That "something" involves women having sex with women and men with men but... what is the reality on the ground that Paul knows about? We don't know. Was it long term committed and covenant same-sex love relationships where two people got up every morning and discussed world events over coffee, cared for each other in times of sickness, listened to each others hopes, dreams, and fears, and made love before falling asleep in each others arms? I don't know but... I'm thinking not. There were LOTS of nasty sexual behaviors going on in Rome like pedophilia, sexual abuse of slaves, cultic prostitution, etc. Its important to note that Paul, when he refers to "natural" intercourse. Is NOT making a appealing for a authority to the natural world as we might but is really talking about what is "normal" or "usual" or "socially acceptable"

28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind and to things that should not be done. 29They were filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, craftiness, they are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters,* insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, rebellious towards parents, 31foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32They know God’s decree, that those who practice such things deserve to die—yet they not only do them but even applaud others who practice them.
The Righteous Judgment of God

Again, Paul reiterates that the real issue here is NOT SAME SEX BEHAVIOR!! They (whatever those behaviors consisted of) were the result of not acknowledging God. THEY were ALSO not the only consequence of idolatry... he gives the Romans a WHOLE LIST of stuff that results from not acknowledging that only God is God.

2Therefore you have no excuse, whoever you are, when you judge others; for in passing judgement on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, are doing the very same things. 2You say,* ‘We know that God’s judgement on those who do such things is in accordance with truth.’ 3Do you imagine, whoever you are, that when you judge those who do such things and yet do them yourself, you will escape the judgement of God? 4Or do you despise the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not realize that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? 5But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath, when God’s righteous judgement will be revealed. 6For he will repay according to each one’s deeds:

OK, TBL, Here is where the thing gets REALLY REALLY INTERESTING. The fundamentalist, anti-gay, Christians always stop reading at the end of Chapter one but Paul's argument continues into Chapter two. Remember that Paul is speaking to JEWISH CHRISTIANS in Rome. In chapter one he has gotten his audience all worked up about how disgusting the Gentile's are. They are idolators (really bad from a Jewish point of view) and they engage in all kinds of nasty behaviors (both sexual and non-sexual) as a result. Then ALL OF A SUDDEN in Chapter two he turns on the Jewish Christians and accuses them of doing the EXACT SAME THING.

He is NOT accusing them of sleeping with the wrong sex people. he is accusing them of being judgmental of others and MAKING THE LAW INTO AN IDOL AND PUTTING IT IN THE PLACE OF GOD. In other words, this WHOLE argument is really about depending on the GRACE OF GOD THROUGH JESUS CHRIST. He wants the Jewish Christians to let go of their attachment to the law and to depend on the Grace of God in Christ. He is telling them that they must stop judging others because when they do that they are drawing down judgment on themselves.

TLB --- The people who need to read Romans 1 and 2 and TREMBLE WITH FEAR are not GLBT Christians. The people who need to read these passages and be afraid are the so-called Christians who seek to oppress us.

Here is the part of the argument that YOU need to pay attention to:

7to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honour and immortality, he will give eternal life;


TLB,

Are you seeking glory, honor, and immortality by patiently doing good? If so... then relax, God has already taken care of it.

U-dog

[Matt Algren]

In addition to what u-dog, Rick, and Steven said, the more time I spend with Paul's letters, the more important I think it is to read them as that; letters to a specific group of people (and not always the same group), not as books with chapters and verses and sections. That's an arrangement that was added later to make it easier to talk in more depth about specific parts.

The arrangement is fine as far as it goes, but I think looking at the letter as a whole is important in much the same way as listening to a sermon in its entirety is better than pulling out the first two minutes.

Does that make sense? Once we understand the intent of the whole, we can then go back and look at the parts and study them individually.

In the case of Paul's letter to the church in Rome, this becomes very important. As u-dog pointed out, Paul has gotten his audience all worked up about the horrible heathens, only to turn around and catch them in their hypocrisy. He was a MASTER at it.

[u-dog]

You only really see the theological and rhetorical BRILLIANCE of Paul when you see his letters for the sophisticated "wholes" that they are. The man was really a genius. I say that even when he pisses me off as he sometimes still does.

[keltic63]

I believe the church suffers from a rather whimsical division of the scriptures into chapters and verses. The idea was good because it helps us find the information we're looking for, but it separates sections that should naturally be together.

http://blog.preachingtoday.com/2007/10/the_naked_text.html talks about how scripture was randomly divided into the chapters and verses we have now.

romans 1 & 2 is an excellent example of how this division affects interpretation of scripture. Many people stop reading at the end of ch 1 and conclude that Paul is condemning homosexuality, and this is not the case.

Thanks u-dog, for pointing out that when Paul says "natural" he's really talking about "normal" or that which occurs most within a society. Statistics Anyone? mean, median, mode..... I'm guessing Paul is talking about the Mean when he says "natural"