Lambeth Reflection - Ecclesiastical vs. Secular Cultural Activism

[dsdrane]

Reflecting on Lambeth, I find it striking that Episcopalians in the U.S. seem to be "ahead" of their Anglican counterparts in Canada and the U.K., whereas the opposite is the case in the respective secular cultures.

How does this happen? What's at work here?

Thoughts?

[Gregory_de_Bois]

Wait, so who exactly is ahead where? I am a tad confused. I love my episcopal church. Accepting and still orthodox!

[Daniel]

Reflecting on Lambeth, I find it striking that Episcopalians in the U.S. seem to be "ahead" of their Anglican counterparts in Canada and the U.K., whereas the opposite is the case in the respective secular cultures.

How does this happen? What's at work here?

Thoughts?

But my first thought is that it has nothing to do with religion, but rather, everything to do with our Constitution and the long-held ideal of self-determination. Other nations, while 'secular', don't benefit from our particular brand of democracy. As well, we do not have a long and bloody history as some other European and African countries do. Some things, in spite of secularism, are held on to perhaps? That 'some thing' being a conservative religious outlook?

Canada may, in some sense, be it's own ecosystem: my sense is that, while there may be a trend towards conservative views within the church, it is counterbalanced by the establishment of gay rights such as is not seen in our own country. Diversity amd immigration is what has saved their country in the last 20 years or so. Which is something the United States haven't had to deal with in quite the same way. Canada's society has, in that sense, opened up even though, religiously, it remains 'closed'.

[Pablo Rafael]

It seems to me that the Episcopal church in the United States is generally more liberal and affirming than the Anglican church in England. In the United States the Episcopal church is a very small denomination whereas the Anglican church is the largest church in England. Being small, the Episcopal church is less bound to go along with majority opinion on an issue. It seems that smaller groups and organizations are always the one to instigate change. Larger organizations are slower to advance.

I don't know much about the Anglican church in Canada. Is it a large denomination there?

My theory doesn't seem to work with the Lutheran church, however. With the Lutheran church it is exactly the opposite. The Lutheran churches in Europe are more gay affirming than they are in the United States. The conservative homophobic Lutheran churches seem to be in the United States and Africa. (Africa is another whole topic. It seems that ALL churches are very homophobic there.)

[nmwolfboy]

i'm not sure exactly how this might relate to the differences between the Church of England and The Episcopal Church, but there are stark differences in how these two churches are governed. For example:

In the Episcopal Church, Bishops are elected by diocesan delegates, which includes representatives from the laity and the clergy. Existing Bishops then consent (or not) to the election of new Bishops by a simple majority. In the CofE, Bishops are appointed by the crown, based upon recommendations forwarded to the Queen by the existing Bishops, via the Prime Minister. CofE laity and clergy have no official role in the appointment of their Bishops.

The CofE is also the established state church, officially authorized by their government, with the ultimate governing authority vested in the monarch. In the US our constitution prohibits our government from establishing an official state church.

The Episcopal Church is governed by the General Convention, which meets every three years. General Convention is bicameral, consisting of the House of Deputies and the House of Bishops. The House of Deputies, comprised of elected lay & clergy representatives is the older body, and the House of Bishop's authority is much more circumscribed than that of the House of Bishops in the CofE. Changes to the canons, doctrine & rites of the Episcopal Church require the assent of both houses.

The CofE is administered by a General Synod, which meets as often as two or three times a year, and is tricameral, consisting of a House of Bishops, a House of Clergy, and a House of Laity. All three Houses have a voice in conducting the business of the CofE, and in authorizing and changing the canons of the Church. But when it comes to changing doctrine, rites, ceremonies, and the administration of sacraments, the House of Bishops holds all the official authority. Also, changes passed by the Synod must then be submitted to the British Parliament, which can approve or reject them. Changes must then also obtain the assent of the reigning monarch.

I believe these constitutional differences in polity have resulted in the Episcopal Church having more flexibility and being more representative of (and responsive to) a majority of its members, while the CofE is much more conservative and cumbersome in its governance and reflects the status quo valued by its Bishops.

i don't know much about how governance within the Anglican Church of Canada is set up, but from what i've read it seems somewhat similar to the Episcopal Church, though instead of a General Convention, they have a General Synod.

Pax et bonum,
scott

[Sere-Kun]

The Episcopalian church my family goes to is very close-minded. They are very intolerant towards gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and transgenders. They are very strict in their worship style, as they have to conform to Anglican worship. Then again my dad is Calvinist and goes to a "Reformed Episcopalian Church." From what I see the real Episcopalians are more liberal, whereas the "reformed" ones believe in doctrine of election (God creating throw-away people just to damn to an eternity in hell for his own amusement.) and they are extremely right-wing in thought. The priest's son at this church acts homophobic when you mention the word "gay" and he refuses to talk about them, like they don't even exist.

The closest thing to a liberal Christian congregation that I've seen is a United Methodist Church in the downtown area of our city that is a very huge church and they have a banner that says "Open Minds, Open Hearts, Open Doors."

[Gregory_de_Bois]

The Episcopalian church my family goes to is very close-minded. They are very intolerant towards gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and transgenders. They are very strict in their worship style, as they have to conform to Anglican worship. Then again my dad is Calvinist and goes to a "Reformed Episcopalian Church." From what I see the real Episcopalians are more liberal, whereas the "reformed" ones believe in doctrine of election (God creating throw-away people just to damn to an eternity in hell for his own amusement.) and they are extremely right-wing in thought. The priest's son at this church acts homophobic when you mention the word "gay" and he refuses to talk about them, like they don't even exist.

The closest thing to a liberal Christian congregation that I've seen is a United Methodist Church in the downtown area of our city that is a very huge church and they have a banner that says "Open Minds, Open Hearts, Open Doors."

The thing about episcopalians is that the churches can be pretty autocephalous, that is, each can determine certain aspects of their doctrine that are different from other episcopal churches in the same diocese. Also, that church may be an independent church that is not a part of the Episcopal Church in the United States. My episcopal church has a lesbian deacon, who I might add is very animated and awesome:p.

[nmwolfboy]

Then again my dad is Calvinist and goes to a "Reformed Episcopalian Church." From what I see the real Episcopalians are more liberal, whereas the "reformed" ones believe in doctrine of election (God creating throw-away people just to damn to an eternity in hell for his own amusement.) and they are extremely right-wing in thought.

The Reformed Episcopal Church (REC) is a completely separate denomination from The Episcopal Church (formally the Protestant Episcopal Church in the USA or PECUSA). The REC was founded in 1873 by a Bishop of PECUSA along with some clergy and laity who presumably viewed the Episcopal Church as less Protestant and evangelical than they thought was desirable. The REC is far more conservative than the present day Episcopal Church.

Currently the Episcopal Church is in full communion with the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Church of England and is therefore a member of the Worldwide Anglican Communion. The REC is not, though they claim to be the 'really, truly, orthodox' Anglicans through their ties to other conservative assemblies which have split off from Church of England roots.

Totally messy, huh, which should prove that they're all Anglicans. :rofl:

Pax,
scott