How Do I Get My Church To Listen ?

[daddyDA]

My dear Brothers & Sisters in Christ, I post these comments from the depth of my heart & in the hope that you might offer me both advice & encouagement.
I am considering becoming involved in the full time & paid ministry of our Church.
Just to give you a little background I am a straight man with a Wife & two wonderful children. We live in the UK & my Wife, through this Church, has recently rediscovered her faith again.
When we raised my feelings on the issue of homosexuality with one of our senior pastors we were met with the 'stone wall' response that she believed Christ calls us to welcome the 'sinner' but hate the 'sin.' With that in mind, Gay people could be Church members but must not practice their sexual orientation.

Both my Wife & myself reminded her that Christ never even mentions homosexuality in the New Testament & that there are clearer prohibitions against divorce but even our Church remarries divorced people.
All she would say was that the whole theme of the Bible, from Adam & Eve onwards, was that a man was called to sexual union with his Wife (& vice versa) anything else was sinful.

I feel that to challenge thisfrom within is possible but will be certainly the most difficult thing I have ever done in my life. It would be easy to lead a double life. To preach Church policy on the one level & to have my own views on the other. Our own Dr Rowan Williams, Archbishop of Canterbury, seems to have done as much himself.
I read in yesterday's Times of letters he wroe some twenty years ago (before his selection as Archbishop) in which he expressed his theological view (after 20 years prayer & study) that committed Gay relationships could reflect the love of God. Sadly he recanted on this before his ordination & now claims that he must teach what the 'bible teaches' because his is commanded to by God. I'm not sure I could live with such a split.

I feel deply for you folks. For years it seems that God has placed your cause on my heart & I suffer greatly because of what I express.
When I spoke to the same senior pastor about Gene Robinson's visit to the UK & how I admired him for having the guts to stand up for who he was, she quickly became defensive & accused him of bringing dishonour to the body of Christ.

I felt that, if I really expressed my views, I would become very angry with her & destroy any relationship that might exist.

I am due to give my testimony next Sunday at another meeting hall within the same Church. In that testimony I am determined to quote at least one short passage from Mel White's 'Stranger At The Gate' & a couple of lines from another book called 'Someday I'll Find You' by H A Williams. (He was an Anglican theologian & a respected Gay man. He was part of an order called The Mirfield Fathers & I read his biography while a student.0

Another senior figure within our Church has criticised Harry Williams & his book along the lines of 'how the mighty have fallen.' I emailed my response to this to our Pastor & she never took it up with me directly.

Well folks, please pray for me on Sunay week. I'm going to speak for about 6 minutes; please pray that God will use me & give me the right words.
I feel a bit like a member of the 'resistance' & it seems I am carrying forward the fight behind ememy lines.
When I look at the logo at the top of this page (still just on my screen) I know that this fight maywell cost me dearly but it has already cost many of you even your lives.

In the words of the great Dr King..."Let FREEDOM RING!"

Blessing to you all from the United Kingdom on a very overcast Friday morning.

[daddyDA]

Please forgive this small indulgence but I used to read this story to both of our boys when they were small. (Our youngest recent brought home a Poster fromSchool saying 'People Are Gay : Get Over It!" - It was from Stonewall:))
The lines are from the final paragraphs of Wilde's 'The Selfish Giant', they used to bring tears to my eyes as I concluded their bedtime story. My Wife brought me the book while on holiday in Wilde's native Dublin..

Theb giant finds the small boy under a tree that has just come into blossom again.

"Downstairs ran the giant in great joy, and out into the garden. He hastened across the grass, and came near to the child. And when he came quite close his face grew red with anger, and he said, 'Who hath dared to wound thee?' For on the palms of the childs hands were the prints of two nails, and the prints of two nails were on the little feet.
'Who hath wounded the?' cried the giant; 'Tell me, that I may take my big sword & slay him.'
'Nay!', answered the child : 'but these are the wounds of love.'
'Who art thou?' said the Giant, and a strange awe fell on him, and he knelt before the little child.
And the child smiled on the Giant, and said to him, 'You letbe play once in your garden, to-day you shall come with me to my garden, which is paradise.'
And when the children ran in that afternoon, they found the Giant lying dead under the tree, all covered with white blossoms.'

The Church is God's garden in which ALL his children are called to play

[Zerbie]

Hello Daddy,

I wish I could actually offer advice for you, but I think you will find for yourself what you wish to say, and what your conscience can and cannot tolerate. For my part, I find that pastor's statements offensive enough that I would not wish to participate in that church, so I do not know what I, were it me, would say to her that would not disrupt the relationship.

What I reflect upon most in such situations is that Christ indicated that how one treats the outcast and the prisoners is how one treats Him. If your pastor cannot know that Christ is in people because some social system taught her those people were inferior, then she has a long way to go before she will understand the essence of Christ's teachings. In various ways, so have we all. Maybe you will say something that will help her grow, and vice versa. I don't know.

I wish you luck. :pray:

[u-dog]

DDA,

Unlike Zerbie, I can imagine loving a church enough to want to stay within it even when it is acting in stupid and mean ways.

Your Senior pastor is engaged in some serious hypocrisy. They marry divorced people ... an issue that Jesus ACTUALLY had a recorded opinion about.

They ordain women to teach men and to speak in church ... a thing that the second and third century church clearly denounced (I don't believe those passages were from Paul's pen ... they were added later)

And yet... they cannot embrace glbt brothers and sisters in Christ.


Why? because she IS a woman. Because she KNOWS lots of divorced people and doesn't want to be mean to them and because GLBT folks are the "OTHER" and they are scarey to her. This is not the Gospel (as you well know)

ALSO ... any pastor who believes that sexual di-morphism is the central theme of the Bible needs to go back to seminary !!!!! (actually back to Sunday School. Yikes!!! Make her sing "Jesus Loves ME'' over and over again and do lines (you will write "Jesus Loves me this I know... for the bible tells me so" 500 times)

If you make your testimony in that congregation you MUST find ways to tell the truth becuase the Gospel is in danger in that congregation.

God bless you !!!

U-dog

[Zerbie]

DDA,

Unlike Zerbie, I can imagine loving a church enough to want to stay within it even when it is acting in stupid and mean ways.

U-dog

But would that attract you to join them in the first place?

[Matt Algren]

Make her sing "Jesus Loves ME'' over and over again and do lines (you will write "Jesus Loves me this I know... for the bible tells me so" 500 times)Thanks for the clarification. That had the potential for disaster!

I agree with you that part (only part) of the problem is that a lot of folks haven't had to question what they've been taught. They haven't had that personal connection to the issue, and consequently it's someone else's problem.

I was recently (Wednesday) asked by a very good friend what she can do to support me and the cause. I'm still formulating my answer, but I keep coming back to the idea that it's kind of like asking a black woman in 1952 America what I could do as a white man.

[u-dog]

But would that attract you to join them in the first place?

Absolutely not !!!

[u-dog]

Thanks for the clarification. That had the potential for disaster!


Now Matt! Behave yourself! DaddyDA is a Brit. "Doing Lines" is an ancient British alternative to getting caned... which now that I think of it might be a better response to his pastors unloving attitude.

[Pablo Rafael]

All she would say was that the whole theme of the Bible, from Adam & Eve onwards, was that a man was called to sexual union with his Wife (& vice versa) anything else was sinful.

I had this exact line of reasoning used with me a month or so ago. I call this formulating one's own doctrine and then using the Bible to try to back it up. I pointed out that people have done this throughout history. You can't just say that there is this universal idea of "one man and one woman" which exists in the universe somewhere.

Then it comes back the the church has "always" understood it this way. Not true, but even if it had, it doesn't meanthat way of thinking is right. I was talking to a Lutheran so I mentioned that the idea of the Reformation was that the Bible had to be the source of doctrine. And since the Bible nowhere speaks against loving gay relationships, how can you say otherwise?

In the end, however, it seems the argument goes nowhere. I say that for me personally I am not attracted to women. And I am sure that I never will be. For me, any intimate relationship has to be with another guy. That is how God created me. It is not wrong. No one else has the right to tell me they are right and I am wrong.

I find that people don't listen to me much. I think you straight allies have more influence within the church than we gays do. I say, keep bringing the subject up. Don't let it drop. People begin to change their minds when they hear something from diffferent people and hear it many times.

Also I find most people I talk to aren't really opposed to gay relationships. They just go along with a traditional way of thinking because they always have. Since it doesn't affect them personally, it doesn't need much attention. But the people like my mom, who it does affect personally, are the ones willing to rethink thier beliefs. I have also found that in my experience it is the clergy not the parishoners that are homophobic.

I am not ststing this clearly. I hope you get what I am saying.

[Matt Algren]

I had this exact line of reasoning used with me a month or so ago. I call this formulating one's own doctrine and then using the Bible to try to back it up.It's called eisegesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisegesis), and it's a common problem that we have to combat. I pointed out that people have done this throughout history. You can't just say that there is this universal idea of "one man and one woman" which exists in the universe somewhere.

Then it comes back the the church has "always" understood it this way. Not true, but even if it had, it doesn't mean that way of thinking is right. I was talking to a Lutheran so I mentioned that the idea of the Reformation was that the Bible had to be the source of doctrine. And since the Bible nowhere speaks against loving gay relationships, how can you say otherwise?

In the end, however, it seems the argument goes nowhere. I say that for me personally I am not attracted to women. And I am sure that I never will be. For me, any intimate relationship has to be with another guy. That is how God created me. It is not wrong. No one else has the right to tell me they are right and I am wrong.

I find that people don't listen to me much. I think you straight allies have more influence within the church than we gays do. I say, keep bringing the subject up. Don't let it drop. People begin to change their minds when they hear something from different people and hear it many times.

Also I find most people I talk to aren't really opposed to gay relationships. They just go along with a traditional way of thinking because they always have. Since it doesn't affect them personally, it doesn't need much attention. But the people like my mom, who it does affect personally, are the ones willing to rethink their beliefs. I have also found that in my experience it is the clergy not the parishioners that are homophobic.

I am not stating this clearly. I hope you get what I am saying.You're stating it fine. We are of like mind on a lot of this.

Sounds like you've been through the ringer for the last couple months, Pablo. I'm so sorry.

[daddyDA]

Thanks for all of you replies folks.

I spoke to another pastor in the same Church today & have forwarded him the link to Soul Force.
To his credit he was at least willing to listen to the view that being gay & taking part in a loving Gay relationship was not sinful.
We even got onto the story of sodom & he seemed to accept that there could be an alternative exegesis for this well abused text.

At least hereI felt we could 'agree to differ.'

He knows I (and Mrs daddyDA) feel called to ministry in the Church & his line was 'fight the battles you can win' & don't push those you can never.
However, there is much that can be done from within.

Our Son's Stonewall poster is still on the Kitchen worktop. I've often wondered what would happen if he took it into Sunday school. I know his teacher well. She's a really nice lady & I know him well too. I know he wouldn't hear things said against Gay people & just remain silent. He's a radical & hates injustice enough to ASK his social studies teacher for a copy of that poster.

He's twelve years old. He and his peers ARE the future & that's encouraging!:)

[tymejumper]

Unfortunately, the unknown terrifies people, and they hate things they fear. Hate is so much easier anyhow, how can someone blame you for hating something that is 'immoral'. This seems to be the belief about gays by the older community, it's just changing now. Blame ignorance and sterotypes. The American Academy of Psychologists and Psychiatrists just about 20 years ago said we were normal and not mentally ill. These people have obviously spent many years being told how sick and immoral we as gay persons are. All you can do is educate, educate and educate. Even if they don't want to listen, present them with phamplets and studies and keep at them like a terrier at their heels. I believe that things will not truly change until the older gemeration dies off, taking their prejudice with them. The younger(X and Ys)generations are raising their children different. They accept diversity and love for what it is.

So, keep at it, keep spreading the word and the truth, they will not be able to deny it. (They say that the truth will set you free, but will make you miserable as all get out first).

I have run into this personally, with my father 60ish and grandmother 80ish. I invited them both to my commitment ceremony in a few weeks, only to be told that they didn't approve. My grandmother also said if I were marrying a man, of color or a minority, she would not come either. After all, whites should marry whites and men should marry women. That simple statement really reminded me of her generation and racist beliefs(which is why I don't have my children around her much at all, not into bigotry on any level) I plan to educate both my dad and grandma by sending them a ton of phamplets I got a this years Pride. Hopefully they read them and get educated, but realisitcally they probably will throw them out. I just need to keep at it.

Oh, and Thankyou for fighting for us, for my family and my rights.

Much Metta,
Rebekah

[Ozgeorge]

What attracts me to Soulforce is its twofold philosophy of
a) non-violence, and
b) relentlessness.
To me, this is the same call that I find as a Christian in 2Timothy 4:2 :
"Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching."
We persistently seek to convince and rebuke our sisters and brothers in the Church that the Gospel demands that we end the persecution of GLBT's, and we do this with "longsuffering". For me personally, this has meant being prepared to take insults, abuse, be misunderstood, and even hated without taking revenge or retaliating with violence.
I think this is what Christ meant by "turn the other cheek". I think He meant that we must be prepared to willingly accept evils done to us, because once it is absorbed, it loses it's power to do any more harm. The greatest successes I have ever had in my Church in convincing people that their ideas of GLBT's were erroneous was to let them see that I am prepared to receive a blow for my beliefs and not change my opinion because of it. People, no matter who they are, I believe are basically good, and if they see us prepared to be insulted and abused for our beliefs, and yet still come back saying that GLBT's are created and loved by God as they are, then the compassion common to all of us will get them to think again.
This takes courage, but courage is not fearlessness, but rather, the ability to move forward despite our fear.