Are we disconnected from the real world?

[Rick336]

Here's an interesting article in the current issue of the Advocate about how we gays on the internet may be disconnected from the real gay world:


http://www.advocate.com/issue_story_ektid58429.asp


Rick

[andrewlittle]

Christopher highlights some very important issues - but they are issues that are not limited to any particular segment of society.

The demise of local specialty stores began with the advent of big-box retailing. Not just bookstores, but all kinds of retailers like hardware, optical, clothing, ethnic or culture specific foods, etc., began disappearing because they couldn't compete with the purchasing power, advertising budgets and, most importantly, the desire of the public to feel like they are getting more and more for less and less.

The internet opened vistas for virtual big-box marketing that put even some brick and mortar retailers at risk, unless they were smart enough to jump on the bandwagon. It also put the last nail in the coffin of many more specialty retailers. Many small scale entrepreneurs, however, have figured out how to use the internet to flourish in ways that wasn't possible in a bricks and mortar world. Internet specialties abound.

Ultimately, this all resulted from the public's belief that it needed "more for less" and the convenience of not having to set foot out of their door to get it.

All segments of society are experiencing the same kind of withdrawal and alienation - the internet has effectively closed the door on many people's need for face-to-face socialization and community building. This is regretable for all and makes physical, personal, intimate interaction of people with like interests and concerns much more difficult.

It is also true, however, that people can find community when, in the past, they could not. I have lived in communities the size of Illiopolis, Illinois (the place the person who left a comment named) - one of a multitude of towns with fewer than 1000 people. I don't care what your particular social needs are - be it contact with other LGBT, other woodworkers, other stamp-collectors - it is hard to find community in tiny towns unless you assume the interests of the majority. The internet has changed the landscape for many of those folks - allowing interaction that could only be realized with driving an hour or two away and doing a lot of searching.

Like anything else, it is both positive and negative. We need to respond to Christopher's concerns by becoming more intentional about supporting the local places of community, as well as supporting virtual places where community can be found.

[Rick336]

Like anything else, it is both positive and negative. We need to respond to Christopher's concerns by becoming more intentional about supporting the local places of community, as well as supporting virtual places where community can be found.

After reading Christopher's article, it dawned on me how long it has been since I've actually been involved in a real time gay activity outside of my small circle of friends.

When I was younger I used to be in the middle of everything both socially and politically. But ever since I bought my first PC in 1999, I have gradually moved away from my involvement in local LGBT politics and now I find it easier just to log on and make a donation on line.

As far as my social life, I have a small group of friends that I occasionally party with. Last year a bunch of us went to Disney World and this weekend we're going camping in Georgia. But at age 56 (57 next month) the days of boogieing at the disco are pretty much behind me. ( do they still say boogie?) Most of the time now I'm more content to sit on my front porch and talk with a buddy over a six pack of beer.

Still, the article made a good point. I received an email yesterday from our local Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays about an upcoming fund raiser. Maybe instead of sending a check, I'll actually show up this time. And maybe next week I'll actually go down to the democratic headquarters and volunteer for the Obama Campaign.

And Wayne Besen is organizing a protest in Chicago for November against James Dobson's inclusion into the radio broadcaster's hall of fame. It's been years since my last protest demonstration and this seems like a great reason to get out and get loud. Maybe I'll go check it out.

Rick

[Alecto]

Honestly? This looks like its extremely regional to me. Bookstores? I don't know that my city EVER had a gay bookstore. We've got bars (which admittedly are usually a little hookup-centered; there are nice folks in bars who don't just wanna do you, but they're difficult to find), but more importantly we've got coffee shops and all manner of other stores that may not be "gay coffeeshops", but may as well be. They're definitely gay friendly.

As for the phenomenon of the "troll", I don't even know if I see how that's relevant. Like...it's academically fascinating, yes, and a day-to-day annoyance for us all, but the truth is from what I've seen, most forum-type-sites, if left alone for long enough, develop a core group of members. Some might be a bit more tactful than others, but the core group usually doesn't include said trolls. How they filter the trolls out changes from site to site, but there is a legitimate community that develops, in my experience anyway.

[Daniel]

After reading Christopher's article, it dawned on me how long it has been since I've actually been involved in a real time gay activity outside of my small circle of friends.

When I was younger I used to be in the middle of everything both socially and politically. But ever since I bought my first PC in 1999, I have gradually moved away from my involvement in local LGBT politics and now I find it easier just to log on and make a donation on line.


I read the following article at Towleroad, which links to Out.com. It speaks to the phenomina of being online, gay culture and how we meet each other.

http://www.out.com/detail.asp?page=1&id=24005

The title of the article speaks for itself: Has Manhunt destroyed Gay Culture?

Not being one to have ever frequented the site, I can't speak from experience. But the article made me think about the topic of this thread, that being that more and more, gay people are getting used to not meeting each other in the venues that they used to in the past. It's an interesting change with, I believe, both postive and negative aspects. One thing the article mentions is something you note: gay men used to go to out to various places to meet other men, and now they primarily go out to meet their friends.


Here's Wayne Bensen's perspective on the article.

http://www.365gay.com/features/besen-a-click-away-from-love/

Whether it is a matter of social Darwinism or not, the fact seems to be that being online is here to stay.

[Alecto]

I don't know if that's all true though. Maybe I'm just doing that thing again (I have this constant struggle to NOT project my queer experience onto other people, because I kind of hate when other people speak - inaccurately - for me), but I feel like Yeah. Sometimes if I'm in a mood, I'll go to some queer online places. It's easier to socialize without necessarily exuding your downer-vibe if people can't read your body language. But I know that I can only go so long without stepping foot into physical queer space. Too long in the "straight world", or the "real world" or whatever you want to call it, without some escape into a place that's full of my people (as weird as that may sound), and it's like my soul starts dying just a little bit. Even when I don't agree with them about everything, or even if there's mini-drama, or guys being creepers or jerks, there's still the sense of homeness that I can't get from just talking to folks online. And maybe that makes me unusual, as opposed to the folks who don't feel that need, but I know that for me the internet is NOT going to kill gay bars or coffeeshops or groups. There will always be a need for that intangible atmosphere in physical space.

[Zerbie]

Oh heavens yes, Alecto's response evokes memories in me of times when I've felt a similar sense of 'need.' I'm agreeing with Alecto a lot lately, are you my long lost sibling? :love::p

Anyway. There can be a sense of belonging when the demographics fit with whatever resonates for us. For me, I've noticed I tend to be at my most comfortable in an environment where the majority is gay/lesbian/bisexual. Without some connection to the gay community in my area, I'll feel emotionally like I'm deprived of something. It is very difficult to be happy without that community nearby.
I guess online can work as a kind of band-aid if you want, but don't have, that 3D connection.

If I'm ever in space that seems all straight and heterocentric, I still tend to feel a little held back, and sometimes downright uncomfortable. I'm the happiest in mixed space, where I'll hold hands with my husband, but still where a substantial percentage of folks are LGBT.

Any wonder that when I finally decided to try a church, I chose a church that serves a mostly LGBT community? I don't know if I could feel as comfortable and free to express myself in a more straight-dominant church. To answer that, I would have to switch to a different one in order to compare, which I don't wish to do now that I've found a place I like for the first time in my life. :eek: (Anyone see flying pigs around?)

Anyway. The internet has its uses. I think it's great for closeted folks to safely chat anonymously and get some support from somewhere, which they cannot or will not do 3D. Among other things.
But let's not kid ourselves: life is out there where we can see, hear, touch, and engage in the world. We're mammals, and we have need for physical and emotional engagement and the presence of others like ourselves. Computers cannot replace that.

[RedneckDyke]

I haven't read the article, so I might be off base about it. To me, sometimes the stuff that is called "gay culture" is just another word for "places for young single urban gays to go and make fun of everyone else while they cruise." Sure, when I was young, single, and living in Austin and, I went to bookstores, bars, coffeehouses, and the like. Then I got married and had a ready made family of kids and grew up and settled into a routine. I think that happens to a lot of people. I bet there are straight folk who sometimes wonder why they don't go out anymore and drink wine at gallery openings and the like.

I live in a small rural area and there aren't any gay bars or anything that is specifially marketed to gays. But even if I lived in a big city I doubt I'd go party like that anymore. I am an old fuddy duddy. I'm not in the market for a hookup and the music is too loud.:D

I do have art and culture here. I take ceramics class at the local community college. I can throw a mean chili bowl or coffee mug.;)
My wife and I also have coffee at this cafe run by a fab guy who makes sock monkeys. (supersockmonkey.com)

[BruceChris]

I suspect that it may have something to do with growing older, and spending more time online may go hand-in-hand for some of us; they're both part of the same processes. For me, that's not the same thing as a cause and effect relationship.

Hey, it's much better being online with you guys, than to be in a bar, way past my bedtime, with music so loud that I can't hear anybody, and the anybodies are all a few decades younger, anyway. Peter Pan, I'm not. :disagree:

Peace, Love, and being in bed by 10:00, Bruce Chris

And the Circuit Parties, where everybody snorts meth, and practices unsafe sex are on another planet, I HOPE. :eek: :eek:

[paul]

Are we disconnected from the real world? I guess that depends on the individual. I think Christopher makes some good points, particularly that there are not many gay "temples" out there. A place where glbt people can connect on a spiritual level when many glbt people are indeed put off by religion. I tried my local MCC church, and just couldn't do it, it seemed like they were trying to be gay fundamentalists. Okay, that's probably not fair, but I just couldn't climb the mountain to find out if I was wrong. I settled on the local Quaker group, which I find to be a great fit.

Several of you know that I am in the process of getting divorced. As a married guy, internet friends were my only lifeline to the gay community. There are people here, at SF, who have literally saved my life (not the physical part, that was never at risk). So, I have a special place in my heart for the virtual. Once I am in a position to do so, I fantasize about buying an airline ticket and going around and meeting my SF friends. So, no, the virtual is no substitute for 3d for me, but it has been a interim place when I had nothing else. I imagine the net will always be a part of my life, kind of like the phone, it's an instrument for communication. But I also know that over 80% of communication is non verbal, so I would consider myself (or anyone else) impoverished with out 3d relationships.

[Alecto]

I LOVE Quakers. :) If I were Christianity-inclined, I'd totally go with the Quakers.

As for queer temples...I think everyone finds them for themselves? This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9N9m_F8ryfc) song is all about how sometimes, the bar or the club is that temple. Toronto Pride, more'n a million people crowding the streets outside, a ginormous dance-floor crowded with my people all moving to the same rhythm? In a very real way, that is church / temple for me. And it's not the only one. That's kind of what "queer space" is all about, for me anyway.

[wmanion]

I really do not think this is exclusively a gay problem. There are many straight hook-up, relationship, and dating sites. I do agree that nothing can compare to meeting with like-minded individuals in real life and the interaction that takes place. However, the internet has opened so many doors for those who do not know where to find other gay individuals to socialize with. As with anything in life there are positive aspects and negative aspects with almost everything. It is an individual's responsibility to make sure, as in many cases, that we do not replace the real world with the cyber world. With that being said, I would never have found out about SoulForce and the many struggling gay Christians of the world without being online. I may never have questioned scriptural reference had I not been online and ran into SoulForce. In many cases the internet has connected us and made us stronger. I have two straight friends who began their relationships online and one moved 300 miles to be with the person they met. Another moved from Illinois to Washington, (a move that I would have had many second thoughts about) but it has worked for them and they are happy. The internet cannot take the place of 3D meetings, but it can lead to many wonderful 3D meetings if an individual just uses common sense.

Bill

PS. I live 20 miles from the commenter from Illiopolis, IL. Very Small world!

[Zerbie]

Several of you know that I am in the process of getting divorced. As a married guy, internet friends were my only lifeline to the gay community. There are people here, at SF, who have literally saved my life (not the physical part, that was never at risk). So, I have a special place in my heart for the virtual. Once I am in a position to do so, I fantasize about buying an airline ticket and going around and meeting my SF friends. .

Do you have any idea how much we love you, Paul? You are an angel here, a presence for which I am deeply grateful.

I hope you'll come visit me & hubby in Phoenix some day - have a long talk over dinner someplace quiet where we can gab for hours. Oh, wouldn't that be fun?

OT question for you & Alecto: Quakers are a christian denomination??
I don't know what I thought they were, but I thought they were a separate thing from christian.

[Alecto]

The short answer: historically, yes. The long answer: "erm, uh, sort of (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quakers), for the most part. Sometimes."
;)

[paul]

Alecto,

Yeah, I think the reason I feel so at home at my local Quaker meeting is because there are atheists, Buddhists, Christians, well, you name it. There is an underlying attitude of 'I don't know,' which is kinda my mantra.

BTW, I always enjoy your comments, you're one of those people I find myself wanting to connect with, you seem a kindred spirit.

Zerbie,

Yes dinner and talk would be a blast. I look forward to it, who wants to come?

paul

[Alecto]

Alecto,

Yeah, I think the reason I feel so at home at my local Quaker meeting is because there are atheists, Buddhists, Christians, well, you name it. There is an underlying attitude of 'I don't know,' which is kinda my mantra.

BTW, I always enjoy your comments, you're one of those people I find myself wanting to connect with, you seem a kindred spirit.

paul

What always made sense to me is that I have a certain set of beliefs that, if you break it down, I have because of personal experiences. Things I've seen and felt, and other things that I simply and literally choose to believe. It never made sense to me for anyone else to believe the same things I do if they haven't had those same personal experiences, so it's very much "I don't know for sure", and I literally can't comprehend how other folks think they DO know for sure.

And, also, ::blush::

[Gennee]

Christopher highlights some very important issues - but they are issues that are not limited to any particular segment of society.

The demise of local specialty stores began with the advent of big-box retailing. Not just bookstores, but all kinds of retailers like hardware, optical, clothing, ethnic or culture specific foods, etc., began disappearing because they couldn't compete with the purchasing power, advertising budgets and, most importantly, the desire of the public to feel like they are getting more and more for less and less.

The internet opened vistas for virtual big-box marketing that put even some brick and mortar retailers at risk, unless they were smart enough to jump on the bandwagon. It also put the last nail in the coffin of many more specialty retailers. Many small scale entrepreneurs, however, have figured out how to use the internet to flourish in ways that wasn't possible in a bricks and mortar world. Internet specialties abound.

Ultimately, this all resulted from the public's belief that it needed "more for less" and the convenience of not having to set foot out of their door to get it.

All segments of society are experiencing the same kind of withdrawal and alienation - the internet has effectively closed the door on many people's need for face-to-face socialization and community building. This is regretable for all and makes physical, personal, intimate interaction of people with like interests and concerns much more difficult.

It is also true, however, that people can find community when, in the past, they could not. I have lived in communities the size of Illiopolis, Illinois (the place the person who left a comment named) - one of a multitude of towns with fewer than 1000 people. I don't care what your particular social needs are - be it contact with other LGBT, other woodworkers, other stamp-collectors - it is hard to find community in tiny towns unless you assume the interests of the majority. The internet has changed the landscape for many of those folks - allowing interaction that could only be realized with driving an hour or two away and doing a lot of searching.

Like anything else, it is both positive and negative. We need to respond to Christopher's concerns by becoming more intentional about supporting the local places of community, as well as supporting virtual places where community can be found.

Though there are more ways to communicate, I feel people communicate less. I'd rather sit and get to know a person rather than text message. This is the reality are our modern world and one of the negative aspects of technology.

Gennee

[Rick336]

I suspect that it may have something to do with growing older, and spending more time online may go hand-in-hand for some of us; they're both part of the same processes. For me, that's not the same thing as a cause and effect relationship.

Hey, it's much better being online with you guys, than to be in a bar, way past my bedtime, with music so loud that I can't hear anybody, and the anybodies are all a few decades younger, anyway. Peter Pan, I'm not.

Peace, Love, and being in bed by 10:00, Bruce Chris

Good point. I'm not going to go out to a bar and pay a cover charge to stand around a bunch of guys half my age. My cat is older than some of those guys.

And you're right about the music. It's way too loud. They need to turn that noise DOWN!!.... unless it's Donna Summer... and then TURN IT UP!

Rick