Help California Stop Prop 8

[kara speltz]

If anyone has Catholic friends in California, I urge you to send this flyer to them and ask them to take a stand for justice. This is a perfect opportunity to ask our straight allies to stand with us and confront the Catholic church on its heterosexism.

The Catholic church is working hard to deny us our civil rights. While the current polls are predicting that the constitutional amendment banning same gender marriage probably won't pass, it would be a great mistake to sit back and rest on our laurels. In my area, the diocese is holding a meeting the end of September "to assist clergy & lay leaders in preparing the faithful to vote with a Catholic conscience." Given the bishops stand in support of Prop. 8, it would be foreseeable that they will include Prop 8, in this presentation. I urge you copy this leaflet and distribute it wherever you can. Kara

Since the Catholic Church has never attempted to deny the civil rights of divorced heterosexuals, what is really behind their support of Proposition 8?


Conservatives would have you believe that the recent court decision declaring marriage a fundamental right, would force churches to perform same gender weddings. The Catholic Church has been refusing marriage to divorced people for centuries. The situation for lesbians and gays would be exactly the same as any divorced Catholic heterosexual. No church would be forced to perform weddings contrary to their doctrine.



The California bishops have already begun a campaign urging Catholics to support Prop 8. The Knights of Columbus just donated $1,000,000 in support of Prop 8. Where is the moral leadership in denying equal rights to all California citizens? Please stand with us in asking for justice for all Californians and vote NO on Proposition 8.





CATHOLICS AGAINST PROP. 8 (CAP8)

contact kara4peace@aol.com

[inca nitta]

The California bishops have already begun a campaign urging Catholics to support Prop 8. The Knights of Columbus just donated $1,000,000 in support of Prop 8. Where is the moral leadership in denying equal rights to all California citizens? Please stand with us in asking for justice for all Californians and vote NO on Proposition 8.

regarding this statement about Knights of Columbus. Last time, I checked, in the US any churches and non-profit religious organizations are prohibited by law to endorse financially any political candidates or donate money any politcal campaigns. Then, what is the deal with K of C? Are they considered being a non-church? Why do they lobby? What is going on, here?

[offog]

Hi! Greetings from a Canadian fan. Glad to see people paying so much attention to this issue. Prop 8 has to be shot down, and I agree that you can't be complacent about it.

One thing you and your supporters should do is make sure you are eligible to vote. I've read a lot of stories about vote caging and vote suppression. When I was browsing through comments in Democratic Underground yesterday evening, I came across an interesting post. This person suggested a movement to make October 1 National Make Sure I Can Vote Day. So maybe on October 1, everyone who opposes Prop 8 can take a little time to make sure they are properly registered. Also find out about requirements, such as bringing I.D.

Good luck with this fight!

[Zerbie]

One thing you and your supporters should do is make sure you are eligible to vote. I've read a lot of stories about vote caging and vote suppression. When I was browsing through comments in Democratic Underground yesterday evening, I came across an interesting post. This person suggested a movement to make October 1 National Make Sure I Can Vote Day. So maybe on October 1, everyone who opposes Prop 8 can take a little time to make sure they are properly registered. Also find out about requirements, such as bringing I.D.

Good luck with this fight!

What a cool idea!!! :D

Thanks for passing it on.

[Gennee]

Hi! Greetings from a Canadian fan. Glad to see people paying so much attention to this issue. Prop 8 has to be shot down, and I agree that you can't be complacent about it.

One thing you and your supporters should do is make sure you are eligible to vote. I've read a lot of stories about vote caging and vote suppression. When I was browsing through comments in Democratic Underground yesterday evening, I came across an interesting post. This person suggested a movement to make October 1 National Make Sure I Can Vote Day. So maybe on October 1, everyone who opposes Prop 8 can take a little time to make sure they are properly registered. Also find out about requirements, such as bringing I.D.

Good luck with this fight!

It's very important that people are registered to vote. This is a very, very crucial time for LGBT people.

Gennee

:agree:

[Unmasked]

I don't really know any straight people in California, I know a lot of LGBT minors who are friends of a younger friend who lives out there. I'll get on the horn and see if she can help me do a little informing out there. She's a suburbanite, but extremely cool, and aware that there's a world around her.

[BruceChris]

Let us do our best to make sure that all Young people are registered.

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[Daniel]

Gotta love the guy. He puts his money where his mouth is. That is, putting up 100K to stop Prop 8. :cool:

http://www.365gay.com/news/brad-pitt-donates-to-marriage-fight-conservative-group-fights-utility-contribution/

[Daniel]

The San Diego Union Tribune is a conservative paper, so it is big news for it to support the opposition of Prop 8.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/op-ed/editorial1/20080918-9999-lz1ed18top.html

Now that's progress!

[Daniel]

Now here's a sobering thought: all those voters in California registered by the Obama campaign could very well likely vote for Obama and Proposition 8 in November.

Why? Black voters are in denial about homsexuality and gay people.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/21/us/politics/21gay.html?scp=1&sq=same-sex%20marriage%20ban%20is%20tied%20to%20obama%20fa ctor&st=cse

The black community has long had a conflicted relationship with gay men and lesbians, Mr. Buckmire said, equal parts homophobia and denial.

“For too long, black people seemed to think there were no gay people around, especially black ministers,” Mr. Buckmire said. “They’d say the most insanely anti-gay things, and then the choir would come up and the choir is 50 percent gay.”

Still, the tendency of black voters to oppose gay marriage extends beyond religion. Patrick J. Egan, an assistant professor of politics at New York University who has studied black voting patterns on same-sex marriage, said black voters consistently polled much lower than white voters on approval for same-sex marriage, about 16 percentage points, even when religion was not a factor.

The solution here?

A strong effort to inform black voters that Obama himself opposes Proposition 8. Who's doing that?

And Marriage For All.


We are African American community leaders, families, clergy and faith leaders, elected officials and supporters from around Northern California. We have joined together to create a space where we can talk about the importance of freedom—in particular, the freedom to marry for same-sex couples.

http://www.andmarriage4all.org/staff.html

[Gennee]

Now here's a sobering thought: all those voters in California registered by the Obama campaign could very well likely vote for Obama and Proposition 8 in November.

Why? Black voters are in denial about homsexuality and gay people.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/21/us/politics/21gay.html?scp=1&sq=same-sex%20marriage%20ban%20is%20tied%20to%20obama%20fa ctor&st=cse



The solution here?

A strong effort to inform black voters that Obama himself opposes Proposition 8. Who's doing that?

And Marriage For All.



http://www.andmarriage4all.org/staff.html

Denial can be worse than bigotry. It was the same thing when the AIDS epidemic hit in the earlier eighties and the crack epidemic a few years later. The sad thing is that it affected our communities the most.

It's time for my African-American brothers and sisters to acknowledge that there are LGBT people among their congregations.

Gennee

[kara speltz]

Gotta love the guy. He puts his money where his mouth is. That is, putting up 100K to stop Prop 8. :cool:

http://www.365gay.com/news/brad-pitt-donates-to-marriage-fight-conservative-group-fights-utility-contribution/

What disturbs me is that Ellen (of all people) has not given one red cent to defeat prop 8!!! Kara

[kara speltz]

Denial can be worse than bigotry. It was the same thing when the AIDS epidemic hit in the earlier eighties and the crack epidemic a few years later. The sad thing is that it affected our communities the most.

It's time for my African-American brothers and sisters to acknowledge that there are LGBT people among their congregations.

Gennee

Here in Oakland, there has been a great deal of work done in regards to AIDS and the black community. And my favorite radio station which places mostly R&B, has been carrying really excelent radio ads talking about voting no on prop 8. The head of the NAACP makes the connections on one ad to the fight for civil rights. Another ad is from a grandmother supporting her grand daughter when she, "jumped over the stick," with her partner. I've been extremely pleased to hear these ads.

kara

[Daniel]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/23/steven-spielberg-donates_n_128503.html

Keep it coming Hollywood!

[labguy22]

If you're pinched for money (as we all seem to be) but still want to show support, I found a link to downloadable PDF's that you can print at home. Looks great in my cars back window!

http://www.noonprop8.com/page/?id=0007

[tdogg]

What disturbs me is that Ellen (of all people) has not given one red cent to defeat prop 8!!! Kara

Nothing from Ellen??? Maybe she is waiting for October???

Come on Ellen, you are married now. You should support the No on 8 campaign. You have a personal stake in this issue.

[Matt Algren]

I was going to give this its own thread, but it fits wonderfully here in a thread about the Catholic Church and Prop 8.

Father Goeffrey Darrow (http://blog.mattalgren.com/2008/10/father-geoffrey-farrow-a-voice-in-the-wilderness/) stood up for his homily in Fresno's St. Paul Newman Center and preached of inclusion, acceptance, love, and against Prop 8. It's an exceptionally moving homily.

He'll probably be suspended then fired today.

[kara speltz]

Dear Matt: Thanks so much for posting that sermon. What an absolutely courageous priest.

The latest polls show that Prop 8 may pass. We have to do everything we can to stop Prop 8.

Kara

[tdogg]

Latest polls show Prop 8 passing by 5 points. The prior poll (that I heard of) showed it behind by about 7. The Yes ads are out (full of lies and poorly done but apparently effective) and the proponents are on a roll.

I received an email from my mother's uncle a couple days ago, threatening that I would go to hell if I didn't vote yes. We've all heard the lies these people are using to sway voters. We can't let the lies and deceit win this one, but I fell it will be a close call on Nov 4th.

I'm calling Equality for all, to donate and to volunteer for the phone banks. I know that polls aren't always accurate predictors but we can't take any chances!

[1engelbythesea]

Tdogg said:

I'm calling Equality for all, to donate and to volunteer for the phone banks. I know that polls aren't always accurate predictors but we can't take any chances![/QUOTE]

I concurre that polls aren't always accurate and that we cannot take any chances. This is a time to support and model ourselves.
:pray:Prayer is always effective as well.

[Rick336]

I received an email from my mother's uncle a couple days ago, threatening that I would go to hell if I didn't vote yes. We've all heard the lies these people are using to sway voters. We can't let the lies and deceit win this one, but I fell it will be a close call on Nov 4th.

I'm calling Equality for all, to donate and to volunteer for the phone banks. I know that polls aren't always accurate predictors but we can't take any chances!

Some polls now have Prop 8 passing. California needs our help!!!

Donate here ----> http://www.noonprop8.com

Rick

[u-dog]

Here is a question for you politicos:

What will an early blowout by Obama on the east coast on Election day do for or against Prop 8 in California? In other words if it is clear that Obama is going to the White House by supper time in Indiana will that depress voter turnout in California? And if so will that help or hurt the efforts to defeat Prop 8? Just asking you to prognosticate. So.... prognosticate away!

[tdogg]

I don't think it will affect voter turnout. We have a high percentage of absentee voters here in CA. And in speaking with people I know, there aren't too many undecided, as far as who they want for president. Most of the undecided folks seem to be Republicans, so if anything it could create an even wider margin for Obama to win.

Could it have an effect on Prop 8? That's the really good question. Right now, it's hard to say. The latest poll had Prop 8 winning by 5, while a few weeks back it was losing badly. With the newest commercial out from the No campaign, it could have even swung back our way by now. There is a pretty large group of folks who definitely want Prop 8 to win, nothing will influence their vote. Same as the No votes. But then we get to the difference between Prop 8 and President - I believe there are far more undecided voters on this issue than on the presidency. A lot of people haven't made up their mind and if they are waiting for Nov 4 to decide, we probably won't know anything about the results on Prop 8 for two or three days afterwards. I really don't see it being a landslide either way, it's going to be pretty close.

I would like to say if more people choose Obama last minute they'll also vote no on 8, but I know quite a few Democrats who are voting yes on 8. Scary thought...

[Rick336]

In 1978, many voters in California changed their minds three weeks before the election and defeated the Briggs Initiative by a 2 to 1 margin. Maybe that will happen this time around too.

Rick

[u-dog]

There is an interesting analysis of the relationship between prop 8 and polls on the website "fivethirtyeight.com" http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/ check it out.

[kara speltz]

Dear Friends: The fight to save same gender marriage here in California is very, very close. Some polls show us winning; some show us losing.

If there ever was a time to come out as LGBT, it is NOW! If you know anyone in California, write them and let them know that you need them to vote No on Prop 8. This is no time to hide in the closet.

We can no longer afford to live in those soul-killing closets. Please take some time this weekend to write to anyone you know in California explaining to them that you, or someone in your family is gay and how much we need for them to take a stand for justice.

Kara

[Matt Algren]

Here's an editorial on the subject from a small town (population about 21,000) newspaper. (Reported by the Box Turtle Bulletin.) (http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/10/23/4129)

Preserve independence by voting down Proposition 8 (http://www.desertdispatch.com/opinion/voting_4616___article.html/down_independence.html)
October 23, 2008 - 10:29AM
By SCOTT SHACKFORD, editor

Today I’m shedding the more impersonal “authoritative” voice of one of my typical editorials: Proposition 8 means something more personal to me. It directly affects my rights. As such, I want to make a more direct appeal to try to convince Barstow residents to vote against Proposition 8.

Small, modestly conservative towns like Barstow know what it’s like to feel powerless in the face of the majority. We have little control over the state’s electoral votes — our major cities dominate. Congressional and state districting has given us very little control over who represents us in either legislature. We can’t even get local representation in the California Assembly, due to population centers in Tulare County skewing the results in their favor.

So when a bunch of judges tossed out Proposition 22 — which blocked recognition of gay marriage — because they perceived a violation of the state’s constitution, that no doubt again made local conservative voters feel powerless. When one of the few ways Barstow residents can shape state policies is through ballot initiative votes, it stings.

I come to you now from a position of powerlessness. California’s gay residents will not determine the result of this vote. Much as Visalia — 200 miles away from us — gets to decide who represents us in Sacramento, you get to decide whether I can get married.

October marks six years that I’ve lived in Barstow. My urban friends don’t get it. I’ve had gay friends in places like New York and Los Angeles who don’t understand how I can enjoy life out in this community, this empire of red on electoral maps of the state (recent registration trends notwithstanding). But then, they don’t quite understand my libertarian leanings that well.

The engine of a small town is an interesting mix of tradition and independence. Tradition gives a town its identity and character and is slow to change. Just look at the conflict that arose over the idea of changing the date of the local Halloween parade. Independence is the consequence of that feeling of powerless, the understanding that the town is on its own. While it may get some special assistance from the state and federal government now and then, the town knows not to rely on anything more than the typical disbursements.

Understand the balance between these two motivations — tradition and independence — and a small town can be a wonderful place to live, regardless of age, gender, race or sexual orientation. You’re not going to change the nature of a small town; on the other hand, people here aren’t going to try to change you either. From a purely libertarian standpoint, I’m free to live my life in Barstow in ways I could not in a place like West Hollywood. I’m often critical of government demands on our lives, but the City of Barstow’s intrusions are a mere nuisance compared to what people experience in large cities.

There’s one significant barrier, however: marriage. Here, tradition and independence have come into conflict. Allowing same-sex marriage changes a tradition. Forbidding same-sex marriage denies gay couples their independence, the right to define their relationships the way they choose.

But this conflict doesn’t have to be defined in these terms. The fear among opponents of gay marriage is that they will lose their own independence and control over their own traditions, their faith and their values. Religious leaders who don’t support gay marriage fear the government coming in and forcing them to recognize these relationships that violate their traditions.

I understand, and I wish I could say with confidence that no gay couple would ever consider such an effort, but not everybody respects the traditions and independence of others. No doubt, somebody will try.

But we should not be afraid of extending new liberties to others out of the mistaken belief that we will ultimately lose our own. In the event that some couple, any couple, attempts to force any unwilling church to marry them, I would stand among those who side with the church. We do not grant new freedoms to some by taking them away from others.

Consider Visalia and Barstow again: What does Visalia know about Barstow’s needs from the state? Could the average Tulare County resident even find Barstow on the map? How does it feel to depend on people you don’t know to decide who should represent you? How does it feel to be powerless?

And now reverse it. Would you want the responsibility to decide what is best for 100,000 people 200 miles away? I hope your answer would be no. I would hope that you would not want to interfere with this community’s independence and need for self-determination.

That is all I ask of you. You have the power to control an important part of my future. You can control my independence. Is that something you’re truly comfortable with?

I ask you to vote in favor of our tradition of independence. Vote no on Proposition 8.

[Jamie McDaniel]

I saw this on Andrew Sullivan's blog:

Apple is publicly opposing Proposition 8 and making a donation of $100,000 to the No on 8 campaign. Apple was among the first California companies to offer equal rights and benefits to our employees’ same-sex partners, and we strongly believe that a person’s fundamental rights — including the right to marry — should not be affected by their sexual orientation. Apple views this as a civil rights issue, rather than just a political issue, and is therefore speaking out publicly against Proposition 8.

[tdogg]

Most polls are now showing Prop 8 losing; however, the Yes on 8 people are spouting off about a couple of polls showing 8 winning. I think at this time, it's a toss up and we absolutely cannot afford to become smug. We've got to keep donating, volunteering and talking to people. One by one, people are getting involved. Donating lots of money. Coming out of the closet (we've had a couple recent well-known Sacramentans come out gay and against Prop 8). We have to keep talking to people.

The Yes people are gearing up for a major 'fight' until election day. They continue spewing their lies and being 'everywhere' in a last desperate attempt to convince people to pass this thing. I really hope we can launch a successful campaign to counter their efforts. With recent donations and famous people getting involved, that will help. The newest No ad features the CA superintendent of schools, which I think helps greatly. We need more of that.

I feel desperate too. I feel like we really have to try and do everything we can to defeat Prop 8. I know there are other states with the same thing going on (Arizona comes to mind especially - thinking of you Z), and we must help out there too where and when we can. But I truly feel desperate about the situation here in CA.

[keltic63]

the past few days, I've been confronting several Prop 8 supporters on their single-issue blogs. I'm amazed that when asked a few simple questions, these people reply with long tirades about what gay marriage will do to children, why it's impossible for 2 people of the same gender to be married (defining the word marriage) and all sorts of other talking points, but none of them, NONE of them ever answer my simple questions:



If, as you are trying to convince me that calling my union a civil union, is just as sweet as marriage, why are you fighting so fiercely against gays and lesbians using that word to describe their love? Would you be willing to have the secular government declare that all unions, straight or gay, be called Civil Unions from now on? If it is as you say, I’m sure you won’t mind the change



If they are your friends, by all means, show them this blog and see if they are still your friends.
what choice are you talking about? Which lifestyle are you referring to?



As far as your idea that same-sex marriages should be banned because they can not biologically produce a child, then you must also support the prohibition of sterile individuals, sr. citizens, and others who can not possibly create a baby. If this is the purpose of marriage, then it would also be safe to say that married couples who do not produce offspring within a reasonable amount of time should have their marriage licenses revoked and their marriages anulled.



Teenagers growing up in a society where the differences are clear? I’m one of those former teenagers who grew up in a society which made it very clear that being straight was expected and being gay was not normal. It screwed me up for a long time. Is that what you’re advocating here, let’s not let the kids know that being gay is natural?

[Zerbie]

My husband told me (and I don't know where he learned this,) that a prominent leader in the Mormon church is instructing women it is their obligation, as mothers, to disown any gay child who does not 'change' and stop being gay. So in answer to your last question, Kelt, yes, apparently they DO want their gay children to learn that who they are is unacceptable.

[tdogg]

I have yet to hear a reasonable logic to any of the pro-8 arguments. It just isn't there. Eventually they will fall back to "God" and the bible. That's their best defense. I think much of the anger I hear from them, is a result of not being able to logically defend their position, so they resort to yelling, name calling and the like.

Today, working on the No on Prop 8 phone bank, I realized that our supporters - those voting No - are a pretty diverse group. Overall they 'sounded' the most intelligent (but it's the phone, so who knows). Many are passionate, for various reasons. Most of the 'yes' people declined to indicate how they voted (hence, I assume they voted yes as I clearly explained was calling from "No"). One yes person was nice, but adamantly said she had to vote yes. Another demanded my home #, and then proceeded to yell at me.

A few more supporters than non. My favorite quote of the morning "of course I'm voting no, I believe that gay people should be able to marry who they want, I believe that anyone should be able to marry who they want. We live in America, don't we?"

[keltic63]

a little tongue in cheek, but funny, and supportive http://jesussaysnoon8.com/

[Matt Algren]

a little tongue in cheek, but funny, and supportive http://jesussaysnoon8.com/
That tax protest guy is EVERYWHERE lately.

[keltic63]

That tax protest guy is EVERYWHERE lately.

yeah, but at least his comment wasn't a cut-and-paste of his standard shtick.

[tdogg]

Exploits children while spewing out the usual lies re: gay marriage and teaching it to children. Apparently these are the children who went with their parents to their teacher's wedding (a gay wedding). The trip was set up by parents and not a school function. Yes on 8 people are using it to 'prove' gay marriage will be taught in schools. The parents are requesting the Yes people to remove the ad with their children but they won't.

So, these are Christians, exploiting minors against the request of the parents and using them to lie to the public. Nice, people. Seriously, the whole prop 8 thing has me almost to the point of being anti-christian. It doesn't mean I'm anti Christ, I'm just sick and tired of lying, deceiving and threatening people who say they are Christians. These people, let by the chief deceiver, Frank Schubert (our local beast) are so desperate to keep us from having equality they have resorted to the lowest of the lows to try and get this thing passed.

I'm just really sad, pissed and feeling a little desolate right now. :mad::'(

[u-dog]

There is an interesting analysis of the relationship between prop 8 and polls on the website "fivethirtyeight.com" http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/ check it out.


Here is an update from Nate Silver over at fivethirtyeight.com concerning a new poll out on Prop eight:

The Field Poll's final numbers on Proposition 8, the same-sex marriage ban on the ballot in California, are not out yet, but a statement put out by the No on 8 folks provides the following tease:

"The Field Poll shows that Prop 8's deceptive campaign has failed to move their numbers much at all. Prop 8 is trying to run a campaign to get to a Yes vote, yet they have remained in this and other polls well below the 50 percent margin necessary for success. We are running a No campaign, and we are successfully keeping our opponents below 50 percent.
"We are highly energized across the state and we believe this will be a close election. We reject any suggestion that there will be a last minute surge for Prop 8 in a year where California is expected to go overwhelmingly for Sen. Barack Obama.
"In fact, today Prop 8 Campaign Manager Frank Schubert released a blog statement fretting that the presidential election would be called early on the East Coast, thereby depressing conservative voting in California.
"Finally, we note that the Field Poll has a stellar record on initiatives and has been accurate 94 percent of the time."

Field's previous poll in September had the 'No' side winning 55-38 ... a 'no' vote protects gay marriage in California. From reading this memo it looks like ... the 'no' side is winning 50-45 or somewhere thereabouts? We will know shortly.

EDIT: Per a commenter, the measure is trailing 49-44. My guess was pretty good! But ballot initiatives are notoriously hard to poll, so this is probably best considered to be a toss-up.


Notice that the head of Yes on Prop 8 is afraid that an early call in the Presidential race will depress conservative turnout. I hope that's true but I fear just the opposite. Yikes! I can hardly wait til Wednesday when all of this nail biting is over.

[tdogg]

The newest poll in the news shows Yes on 8 trailing only 3 to 5 points and gaining. In this case, it's much to early to call it either way. Polls are biased depending on location and demographics, as we've seen from the presidential polls. I'm crossing my fingers, holding my breath and sitting on the edge of my seat, in addition to joining rallys in the area and working 14 hours on election day.

Meanwhile, I had a thought last night - maybe it should be a separate thread.