dying in the closet

[pianoplayer66]

HI
I'm here because I recently read Mel's book. I am still in the closet and don't see myself coming out in the near future. I am married to my high school sweet heart and best friend for 21 years. We were both raised Primitive Methodist. We are now Presbyterian but over the last 20 years I have wanted to leave the church since I was sure that God had left me. With a strong Christian wife and 4 kids and being the church organist, I have stuck it out. Now I know why. Mel's book put into words feelings I had not been able to sort through in my own mind. Mel's husband (yeah!) directed me to this site.

My life looks much like Mel's except my wife doesn't know anything about my inner war. And I am quite sure she would not be nearly as supportive as Mel's family was. Our kids are very open and accepting of gays. They each have several gay friends that often spend time at our house playing cards, etc.

I have 4 teenagers. 2 in college (both getting ready to be engaged!) We love them very much and at this point I really can't imagine hurting them with this kind of news. Coming out would also destroy my career in the small town I live. It simply isn't an option. At this point, I have to find ways of coping with the war inside and hope for the best.

I am so thankful for Strangers at the Gate. It answered so many questions for me. It also pointed out who I am and just why I am so unhappy inside. This troubles me even more in some ways. Before I thought being married would cure me of my real sexual wants. Now I'm sure it won't and can't. And neither will God.

But I still have a committment to my family. I love them all. I can't come out. I know it isn't going to get any better. How do I deal with all of this? How have others dealt with all of this?

If stress shortens our lives, I wonder how many people who die young seemingly from natural causes were silently walking in the same shoes I am.

I welcome any comments and help. I know God has never left me. I am now looking to find a more real relationship with God--one step at a time.

Thanks for listening!

[keltic63]

HI
I'm here because I recently read Mel's book. I am still in the closet and don't see myself coming out in the near future. I am married to my high school sweet heart and best friend for 21 years. We were both raised Primitive Methodist. We are now Presbyterian but over the last 20 years I have wanted to leave the church since I was sure that God had left me. With a strong Christian wife and 4 kids and being the church organist, I have stuck it out. Now I know why. Mel's book put into words feelings I had not been able to sort through in my own mind. Mel's husband (yeah!) directed me to this site.

My life looks much like Mel's except my wife doesn't know anything about my inner war. And I am quite sure she would not be nearly as supportive as Mel's family was. Our kids are very open and accepting of gays. They each have several gay friends that often spend time at our house playing cards, etc.

My story is similar, but I'll let you in on a little secret. I bet your wife knows, or at least suspects. And if your kids have gay friends, you can be sure the ones with finely tuned gaydar have already picked up on you.
I have 4 teenagers. 2 in college (both getting ready to be engaged!) We love them very much and at this point I really can't imagine hurting them with this kind of news. Coming out would also destroy my career in the small town I live. It simply isn't an option. At this point, I have to find ways of coping with the war inside and hope for the best.

I was married to a woman for 17 years. I have 3 kids. They have never felt hurt by my coming out. I'm their Dad, they love me. They know I love them.
Coming out doesn't necessarily have to ruin your career. I know this from experience. I too, live in a small town, less than 6,000. from your screen name, I'll assume you are a musician. Do you play professionally? again, similar story here: I'm a music teacher in an elementary school and a church musician. I'm out at both jobs with no major problems.


I am so thankful for Strangers at the Gate. It answered so many questions for me. It also pointed out who I am and just why I am so unhappy inside. This troubles me even more in some ways. Before I thought being married would cure me of my real sexual wants. Now I'm sure it won't and can't. And neither will God.

But I still have a committment to my family. I love them all. I can't come out. I know it isn't going to get any better. How do I deal with all of this? How have others dealt with all of this?

If stress shortens our lives, I wonder how many people who die young seemingly from natural causes were silently walking in the same shoes I am.

I welcome any comments and help. I know God has never left me. I am now looking to find a more real relationship with God--one step at a time.

Thanks for listening!

A commitment to your family means that you love them and want what is best for them. Your kids will be fine. Think about what is best for you and your wife. Is it honest and loving to live a fraud and deny her the chance at a real relationship with a man who can love her in every possible way? let me be frank: I thought the sex with my wife was good, and I thought I loved her. I know differently now. All the times that I wanted something "more" in the bedroom, was really me wanting someONE else. the love? more like brother and sister. I'm married now to a wonderful man. The relationship we have is far better, much deeper than I ever expected it to be. The sex is far more satisfying and much more frequent than I ever had with a woman.

I'm not telling you what you should do, but I do think you should consider the possibility of allowing your wife to have a better life in the same way that you deserve to be able to live an open and honest life.

[Zerbie]

Hello sweet Piano Player,

Welcome. :) I hope you will find comfort and strength, here and elsewhere. :pray::love:

You have found a safe place to talk anonymously about all these things. :love:

You will meet men like keltic who have been where you are and whose lives have changed, and others whose paths have not changed much, except inwardly (I'm thinking of udog, who is gay and has chosen to remain married to his wife, who knows who he is inside and loves him.)

If you have not already explored this, one option might be to look into what has been said/written about mixed orientation marriages. You might find helpful perspective there, if that literature is new to you.

Is your church music job full time? Is that why your career seems to be at stake if you came out? (Of course, there are churches where that would not be any obstacle, but that's probably too far ahead for you to be thinking right now.)

Or do you have another full time job in another field? If so, would you mind disclosing what? Someone on the site might have experience in a similar or related field that may help you.
By the way, I am a musician too. I'm a classical singer, and I love working with pianists/organists - you are some of my favorite people. :)

It hurts to think of you dying in the closet, and your wife perhaps not having any idea. :'(
What happens when the subject of gay sexuality is discussed around her? Does she react in ways that make you feel that sharing your struggle with her is simply not an option? I hurt to think of your relationship cut off in this way, and I particularly hurt to think of you feeling isolated and alone. :(

I'm so glad you posted here. :) :rainbow: Let us know what concerns might be troubling you right now, and let us know if we can help address some of them with you.

:love:

[pianoplayer66]

Wow...you folks are fast! I never expected that people would be watching this website. I just spent the last couple of hours watching the online videos on the site.

There is part of me that says that you are so right Keltic. I am ashamed to admit that I had a year long relationship with someone that I found online who I happened to know personally before we talked online. Neither of us knew the other was gay or bi before we started chatting online. We fell in love and it went on for more than a year. We broke it off at the beginning of the year because I wanted to spend more time with him than my wife. He is still very much unable to come out or life a gay life at all because of the guilt he feels as it being wrong in the eyes of God. His family would truely disown him. We agreed to break off our relationship, but he still works for me. (you are right, the sex was something far, far more than I have ever had with my wife!)

I own a business with my wife. We work side by side every day. It is a large small business but truely run mainly by the 2 of us with the help of our 12 employees. I was a music teacher in my first career. That is where my love for music comes from. I started playing church organ when I was 14 and have ever since. I also sing and play in a mens gospel group that travels to different churches in a several state area. Can you see how trapped I am in concervative christian surroundings?

I have no doubt that my kids could and would accept me at least if they were a bit older (the youngest is 13). My wife couldn't. We have an employee who's husband came out. She made it clear when they divorced that his wife, who got everything, didn't get enough. I know she has suspected, but I have excused it, brushed it off, made excuses, done it all to cover it up. Is it right? It sure doesn't feel that way. But I know I would loose my business, my livelyhood, my wife (and best friend), and my parents. My brother knows...he caught me and my bf. He is fine with it, but he is also not a christian and lives his life rather freely anyway.

I am still feeling trapped. And the more I write, the more I feel it. I am starting to know that I may not be able to live this life forever. It's not fair to any of us.

What I do know, is that I am so thankful for people like you and places like this where I can express my feeling freely without fear of judgement. THIS is the love of God in action!

Zerbie--I am interrested in mixed orientation marriages. I didn't know there was anything written. Where do I find it?

Thank you both for the time you took to write. It made my day!:):)

Love in Christ,

[Rick336]

Hey,

Welcome to Soulforce. There are many supportive people on this forum so please stay in touch as often as possible.

There's also a National Gay Lesbian Bisexual Transgender Help Center with a toll-free hotline that also offers support for people with questions about homosexuality and coming-out issues in case you need a real voice to talk to.

Their number is 1-888-843-4564

They also have a website. Check it out at www.GLBTNationalHelpCenter.org

But just be sure to keep coming back here.

Rick

[Daniel]

I'm glad that you found your way here and that Mel's book struck a chord with you (yes...pun intended!)

A thought or two crossed my mind as I read both your posts.

1) Have you given any thought to the possibility that you wife's reaction to a co-workers situation (her husband's coming out) might have something to do with her own anger about her relationship with you? You've mentioned in both your posts that your wife couldn't deal with your being gay. And I have to agree with Steve: on some level she undoubtedly knows already. But the key issue may not be what your wife suspects or how she will react, but what you believe and think about yourself. It sounds as though you have taken the first step towards accepting youself. And that is no small matter.

2) The fear that you could lose your business is understandable. But if you were to take legal precautions, matters could prove to be otherwise. Is your business only in your wife's name?

3) Right now you are trapped in fear. Very understandable. But think about it this way: do you want to be in the same place in 10 years? And if you think your wife is angry now, how do you think she will feel when her own dreams have been used up?

4) You didn't get into this situation overnight. And you won't get out of it overnight either. It's going to take some patience and determination on your part. As well, it's going to take planning and a support group. And though this forum in a virtual one, I believe you will find much support here.

5) Talk to our own Paul. He's been dealing with many of the very same issues.

[wmanion]

Hi Piano Man,
I was also married and have three children. My ex-wife ended our marriage because she was not happy. I got custody of the three kids and raised them. However, it wasn't enough that I had fathered three children, married and fought my whole life to pray the gay away. It just never worked. I finally came out when my youngest reached the age of 16. I was so worried about being rejected by them because I loved them so much, but I could no longer live my lie. I never felt as free as I was until I admitted to God and myself that I was gay. When the scripture says the truth will set you free, it spoke an absolute truth. My children are very accepting and soon my seventh grandchild will be born. I know God loves me like no other and he has set me free to be me, just like he created me to be. I do not know what decisions you will make down the road. You are at the path of reconciliation, where you will accept yourself and become free. If you decide to stay in your marriage, you will have the same support here as everyone else. If you decide to come out and live your life without the lie, you will have that support. No one will tell you what to do and how to live your life for ultimately it is your decision to make. I will pray that God will lead you in the direction he wants to take you. You just need to go to him like the old hymn says "Just As I Am." Welcome to Soulforce.

Bill

[Matt Algren]

PianoPlayer, I can't speak to the wife and kids issue, and I think I'm the only man here who isn't a church organist (;)), but I can tell you that when I came out, some of the people I was most worried about were the most accepting. Like you, I sing in a traveling group and I was worried that it would be the end of us. Turns out, the person I was most worried about getting punched by is the most protective.

My point is that you've had a lot of years to come up with scenarios for what each person's reaction will be. There's a good chance that you're wrong. The absolute worst reaction I got in reality was better than the best scenario I had worked out in my head.

That's not to say that coming out would be a walk in the park. It wouldn't be. But I submit to you that the way things are isn't easy either. As we all know, it's exhausting.

In the end, this is a decision only you can make. Every situation is different and every situation is delicate. I'll be praying for you.

[ctozrn]

I can offer a different spin on the others that have been told here. I was married to a man for almost ten years. I always knew that I was attracted to women (since making out with my best friend when I was 12, before it was cool to do so) I was very unhappy in my marriage and asked my husband if he thought that we could have an open marriage, one where I could have a relationship with a woman but we could stay together and raise our two children who where 7 and 9 at the time. He said no and we seperated. I pictured that we would have joint custody and each go about our lives. I was wrong. He filed for sole custody and I found a lesbian attorney, set out to fight for the two children who I had been a stay at home mom to for their entire lives. I live in the south and giving a lesbian mom custody did not happen too often almost ten years ago. I ended up losing my children to him and ended up only getting them one day a week and every other weekend.

Fast forward to 2008, my children are 15 and 17. I have fought their dad for another day and now have them on Thur and Fri and every other weekend. It has been hell. There is no other way to say it but I wouldn't have done it any other way. I was dying living the life I was leading before. I feel as though I have been to hell and back. My children respect me and love me though. They see now how their father is without me saying a word. I thought about staying in that miserable marriage until they were grown up but I knew I would never be happy. I know now what love is.

I am a hospice nurse. I take care of dying people. Many of my patients are in their 20s, 30's and 40's. THEY NEVER THOUGHT THEY WOULD DIE YOUNG! We are not promised tomorrow. We don't know if we will have the golden years, retirement to look forward to. I have learned that you have to live your life now. I have seen many people that thought they would have the chance to live their lives later....but that did not happen. This has taught me to live for today. I don't always do it well but I try. I am glad that I have found and lived in true love before I die. I have woke up with the woman I love sharing my pillow, made breakfast together, fought about who was going to pick up the kids and who was going to get dinner, had that woman staring into my eyes when I awoke from surgery. It hasn't been easy but I wouldn't have done it any other way.

This is my story. Everyone here has one. The love here is unconditional. Nobody will tell you what to do. We share our experiences and support one another. I hope this can be what you need as you face some hard decisions.

Good luck!
Christine

[tymejumper]

Hello and welcome. Many of us have been and are now where you are.

Here is my story.(kinda long for any who want to bail now!:lol:)

I knew I was attracted to women before I married, but I chose to think I could make myself straight. I had slept with alot of boys, as many as I could in order to prove I was straight and 'find' whatever was missing in sex. Sometimes I even enjoyed it physically.

I was married for 16 years to my best male friend, who also happend to be a transgendered man. We had 3 beautiful children together. Within my marriage, I was suffocating, I approached my ex, asking for a divorce. He said he wanted an open marriage instead and we would stay together for the kids. He went and got a girlfriend but I put it off for 2 more years.

Despite my exs sugestion of having an open marriage, and him getting several girlfriends, he began to subtly 'hint' that if I ever tried to divorce him, he would tell everyone I was a lesbian and he didn't know(a lie). The courts would take my children from me, I would never see them again.(he would make sure of it). One night he tried to really hurt me, kicked my kitten across the room and would not let us leave(I was not leaving without my kids) I called the cops. I put my kids into the bedroom and my teenager called again from there, with the door bolted shut, begging for them to hurry before 'dad kills my mom'. They got us out of there and we stayed at my mothers until I could file for divorce.

He spent time stalking me, harassing me, calling and calling and calling at all hours, threatening me. I could not get a restraining order becuase in MI, they have to have two different offenses within 3 months, and he would wait just enough time in between, so I could not use them both.(his best friends were an attorney and a cops son). He outted me to the whole neighborhood, my doctors and friends. His friends, my childrens teachers and anyone who would listen. Not at my job however, I beat him to it!:lol:

The saddest part is the fact he just walked away from his kids, told them it was their fault and that was that. Has chosen to never see them again.

Now for the good news! I met the most wonderful woman ever, just got married and she loves my children like her own. The kids are happy and very much loved and cherished, like myself.

I can't tell you what to do, you have to do what is right for you. But know we are here to support you and listen to you.

Much Metta,
Rebekah

[paul]

Of course you're gay, you're an organist :lol:, omg, is every organist out there gay???? sorry.

Dear friend, welcome.

And yes, you will find response and acceptance here for who you are. You will find not only understanding (which anyone who cares to can have), but also a great deal of empathy, which only those who have experienced something similar can have. You will find most here, to have huge quantities of both.

My own story (to a point) is probably very similar to yours. Married 31 years, to adult sons. Very conservative fundamentalist "Christian" background (was even asked to pastor a church but declined, that particular church would have run me out of town on a rail if they'd known my sexuality... and I knew that). Up until 3 and half years ago, I lived fighting being gay, for God, family and country :lol:. Ah well. I have limited time right this sec, and will get back, also feel free to pm me if there is stuff you'd rather talk about in private, though this is a very safe place, nothin you cannot be free to say out loud.

I will start this with a thought. You understand your position well: "dying in the closet." That is not dramatic, it is a fact. I am glad that you have at least ventured out enough to find us here. Here you can begin to be known and loved for who you are. We need love to live. We need love to survive. Those who claim to love you right now, do not know you, so they cannot fully love you. And I think you know this, which is why you are "dying."
:love:
paul

[Zerbie]

I know this does not answer the question you asked me about mixed orientation marriages, (try a google search on the term and you will know as much as I know about it, I'm sure), but I did notice that you are in Wisconsin.

The following is taking place somewhere in Wisconsin, I've no idea how near or far from you, but even if you cannot make it there, I thought you might like to read the statements these religious straight women have made about their love for their gay neighbors:
http://www.sevenstraightnights.org/article/65

[tymejumper]

I know you can google a few things and find several support groups for mixed orientation marriages. Try just googling that phrase. Also try 'straight spouse network'. They have local chapters everywhere. I will try to find out from the Network, that's the gay mecca of knowledge here in Grand Rapids. I know they have a support group for gay guys in straight marriages here. If they have it here, in Michigan, they will have them other places.

[pianoplayer66]

WOW!
Again I am overwhelmed with all this. I am learning more every day. Every moment. And not just about myself and my sexuality, but even more importantly about the Love of God and God's people! It's absolutely amazing!:)

Yes, Paul, I think every organist that I now know is gay! And I have one of them to thank for getting me here. I was on a beach and overheard a conversation about church organs and got into it. I was alone and traveling. The short story is, two of them were a gay couple. We continued to talk about our lives....it seemed easy and safe since I was away from home. They were the ones that told me about Strangers at the Gate. The next day there was a copy in my hotel room. (I still don't know how they did that). That was a couple of months ago. I found them today and we are planning on meeting each other! God does work in amazing ways! Thank goodness!

Zerbie, I have googled mixed orientation marriages and I have plenty of reading material now. I had didn't even know the term. Thank you.:)

I am so thankful for the support that I have already found here. I want to say you can't even imagine how much it means to me, but I know you all can! That's just amazing!:pray:

[Pablo Rafael]

Hi PianoPlayer,

I just want to welcome you to the forums. My name is Pablo (or Paul if your prefer) and no one would ever have thought it, but I am a church organist. :tup: Yes, ALL church organists are gay. What is the best place to meet a lot of gay men?- Go to an American Guild of Organists meeting.

Having just recently come out of the closet I can understand your feelings and thoughts. I spent decades in the closet. This past two years I was certain that God was directing me to come out. I also started the coming out journey by reading Stranger at the Gate. For me the liberation I have experienced has been amazing. To be free of that closet and all the hiding and excuses has been totally worth it. I feel that I am finally being who God created me to be. (At the age of 47, I am getting a late start at it.)

I am not telling you that you should "come out", however. You will have to judge that for yourself. I had no wife and kids to factor in to the equation. I did lose my teaching job in a Lutheran school. But my new job is fun and I really needed to take a break from teaching anyway - it's a high stress job. The cost to me for "coming out" hasn't been really that high. You have more things to factor in than I had.

Like Matt's experience, the worst reaction I had from anyone was what I had expected to be the best reaction. My mom was the one who was the most difficult to "come out" to. She was very much against anything gay. It wasn't easy for her, and there were some rough patches along the way, but in the past year she has become a supporter of gay rights. At the time I didn't realize how much she would have to go through it with me. She has come out stronger in the end.

Though I worked in a Lutheran school, I go to a Catholic church. I have found support from the people in the Catholic church. There might be some friction there in times to come, but so far all is well. People have loved and accepted me for who I am. The Lutheran church was a little more difficult, but the problem there was only from the pastors and their wives, not from any of the parishoners.

The reaction of almost everyone who finds out I'm gay has been, "Well yeah, we knew that already." It has been sort of funny that way. :lol: Almost no one sees it as a problem.

My advice is to relax and take your time. You don't have to make any decisions at the moment. Another book I would highly recommend is In the Eye of the Storm by Gene Robinson. I just finished it, an absolutely inspiring book. Also found The Children are Free by Jeff Miner helpful.

If I can be of any help, just send me a PM and let me know.
I will keep you in my prayers.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[pnggrad79]

Piano,
I read your post and was in the same situation you are in. To echo Keltic's story, I was married for 19 years to a man, and have two girls. But when I was 27 and pregnant with my first daughter, I met a 16 year old girl that happened to be in my World History class at school. I taught 10th grade then. Well, we had an immediate attraction, but I thought that it was just pregnancy hormones. Well after the baby arrived, the attraction didn't go away and I spent the next 12 years trying to label this thing and struggling with the intensity of the attraction to her. Well, fast forward 12 years, I ended up admitting to her that I was in love with her and I divorced my husband, and we moved in together. My daughters are cool with us and even see my wife as their "other mother".

Coming out is never easy. But if living an authentic life and giving your wife a chance to find love again, then coming out is what you need to do. I have a dear friend who is in the same exact situation you are in, and he is just flat miserable, but won't come out either. I can't make him anymore than I can make you, but I can encourage authenticity and show you that it is much better being with someone you can connect with physically, spiritually, mentally and emotionally.

Everything these people have said is true. We are here to help you through this process should you choose to go through with it. We feel your pain. We've been there.:)

[u-dog]

Pianoplayer,

I too am a church professional (not an organist). I will have been married for 25 years come next Spring. My wife and I have three sons. Two in college, one just graduated from College. I came out to my wife as gay about... hmmm... almost three and half years ago. She knew that I liked guys before we were married but she liked girls as well as boys and so it wasn't a big problem for her. After more than twenty years of disappointing and not very satisfying sexual relationship I had to admit to myself and to her that "bi-sexual" was not an accurate descriptor for what I am. We have spent much of the last three years in counseling deciding what we wanted to do about this reality and have decided that we will stay together. This is a decision that about 15% of MOM's make. In our case we are very close, have a quarter century of common experience together and are looking forward to grandparenting together. We don't necessarily advocate for this decision... its just the one we've made.

Our relationship is WAY more authentic and WAY more satisfying than it was when I was not out to her. We have disclosed our situation to the boys, to my siblings, and to several close friends. Every one in my life has been amazingly accepting and affirming. I am a much happier and more effective person now than I was before I came out to my loved ones. I am a better husband, father, and friend than I was. I am better at my work and I am a more effective servant of God than I was.

Pianoplayer, only you can know what is the best thing to do and when the best time to do it will be, but living honestly and authentically has much to reccommend it. The road will not be easy and there is no way to predict how the people in your life will react but as you say ... you feel like you are dying. You deserve more than that. I wish you all the best in your journey. And like the others, I am available by PM if you want to know more about my story. All those that you have heard from so far are wonderful people and all of them seem to have made the "right" choice for them even if they have each made a different choice. That seems to be how "authenticity" works.

U-dog

[Gennee]

:love::love:Hi, Piano player and welcome. I read your story and almost started to weep :'(. I hear stories like yours from time to time and it hurts me inside.

I am a transgender person who crossdresses. All my life I felt that I was different but never knew why. The inner struggles I had became intense six or seven years ago. How intense? So much that I nearly lashed out at others for no reason. Three years ago I got this crazy urge to try on my spouse's skirt. I thought that I would just do it and the urge would just go away. It got stronger and stronger. Mind you, I was married with one son, in my middle fifties (56 at the time).

I received some counsel and it was revealed that I was a crosdresser. Denial is like being on a torture rack. I kept saying that the desire would go away-but it didn't. Finally, I came out to myself that I am a crossdresser. Immediately, all the struggle and tension left. When I educated myself as to what being transgender is, it connected with me. I came out to my wife and she is accepting but not crazy about it. We do share some clothes :D. My son is okay with me wearing women's clothing :cool:. These are the two people that wanted to tell anyway.

Piano, I will pray for you because I know this is a very difficult thing for you. God loves you because He sent Jesus as a sacrifice for you. When I reconciled by faith with my transgenderism, He confirmed to me that this is what he had planned in my life all along. I have never been happier. I haven't told the rest of my siblings about me but I'm okay with that. If anyone wants to know if I am transgender or that I crossdress I will tell them. I'm not going into closet.

No, I don't play the organ :lol:, but I want to learn guitar. Does that count?

Gennee

:love::pray::wave::rainbow::love::love:

[pianoplayer66]

Well, I again have to thank everyone for their advice, both public and private. You were all correct. I thought this would get easier once I knew what was going on inside me. It did for a couple of days. But once again, I am only fooling no one.

More over, you were all correct that this isn't really fair for my wife. She and I had a rather heated argument yesterday and it came out that she wants more sex and more out of our relationship. She has been keeping track...I couldn't belive it....but she says we only have sex 1.1 times a week (not counting the 6+ weeks I was traveling this summer). Not enough for her. Not enough for me either, but I can't say I feel exactly the same way she does. We are going to Maine in a couple of weeks on a fall trip to try to 'reconnect'. She's my best friend! We connect! It is so hard!

Right now I hate my life of lies and hate the situation I have put myself into. I keep hoping for a break, but it never comes. I feel like I'm living in a dark hole with no way out.

I keep reading things here and don't know what I would do without the support.

Thanks Again!

:pray::confused:

[keltic63]

Well, I again have to thank everyone for their advice, both public and private. You were all correct. I thought this would get easier once I knew what was going on inside me. It did for a couple of days. But once again, I am only fooling no one.

More over, you were all correct that this isn't really fair for my wife. She and I had a rather heated argument yesterday and it came out that she wants more sex and more out of our relationship. She has been keeping track...I couldn't belive it....but she says we only have sex 1.1 times a week (not counting the 6+ weeks I was traveling this summer). Not enough for her. Not enough for me either, but I can't say I feel exactly the same way she does. We are going to Maine in a couple of weeks on a fall trip to try to 'reconnect'. She's my best friend! We connect! It is so hard!

Right now I hate my life of lies and hate the situation I have put myself into. I keep hoping for a break, but it never comes. I feel like I'm living in a dark hole with no way out.

I keep reading things here and don't know what I would do without the support.

Thanks Again!

:pray::confused:

could she have been giving you an opportunity to come out?

[tymejumper]

Most women that I know who would keep track of the amount of sex you have are wondering 2 things:

1) Is my husband cheating? Is that why we don't have more sex?

Or

2) Is my husband gay?

Oprah has had many talk shows about it and I am sure she has talked to friends, or maybe a councilor.

It is very hard to lose your best friend. I never morned the loss of my husband, but the loss of my best friend. I know you feel as if you are in a hole and can't see daylight. (was there myself!) Hang on and know we are here to support you. It is darkest before the dawn.

Have you tought of going to a therapist ? It could help you to sort out your feelings and help you both in the end. They often do help a couple in this type of situation if you chose to tell her you are gay. They could help her to understand and accept. It was the best gift I gave to myself, to go to a therapist.

[u-dog]

Pianoman,

Whether or not your wife was giving you an opportunity to come out, the things that are going on INSIDE OF YOU and the things that are happening between the two of you make it clear that the time for the status quo is running out. You need to start making a plan for how you are going to disclose to her. Tymejumpers suggestion of therapy is probably a good one. A good therapist can help you to strategize about how to share this reality with her. You are in my prayers.

U-dog

[scott snedeker]

I came across this thread that may be a way to connect with this person who authored it.

http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4627


Try to oen your heart for a moment and let in my affirmation:


You are a cherished representative of the magnificent species, homo sapiens, with drives and desires influenced by genetics and nurturing. You are a complete person as is. What makes you feel best is best.....for you. And no one else's opinion matters. Your inner spirit loves you exactly as you are, as you have been, and as you will be in the future!

[pianoplayer66]

Pianoman,

Whether or not your wife was giving you an opportunity to come out, the things that are going on INSIDE OF YOU and the things that are happening between the two of you make it clear that the time for the status quo is running out. You need to start making a plan for how you are going to disclose to her. Tymejumpers suggestion of therapy is probably a good one. A good therapist can help you to strategize about how to share this reality with her. You are in my prayers.

U-dog

What you say sounds true...terrifyingly true! I have no idea how or when to do it. Some days I think I can keep this up at least for a while. Other days it seems impossible. Then I start to think of how to 'come out'. How do I start? Do I sit her down? Take her out or away somewhere? Write a letter and be there while she reads it? Give her the books that I have been reading?

I just don't even know how to start and every time I do start something in my head it ends in disaster. And what I really want is to be with her in the end in some way.

By the way, I have read "The Children Are Free"--eye opening. I'm halfway through "In the Eye of the Storm". Both very good and I don't plan on stopping there.

And how do you find a counselor that will understand the situation and not just judge you?

Thank God you are all so patient in here!!:):pray:

[Zerbie]

What you say sounds true...terrifyingly true! I have no idea how or when to do it. Some days I think I can keep this up at least for a while. Other days it seems impossible. Then I start to think of how to 'come out'. How do I start? Do I sit her down? Take her out or away somewhere? Write a letter and be there while she reads it? Give her the books that I have been reading?

I just don't even know how to start and every time I do start something in my head it ends in disaster. And what I really want is to be with her in the end in some way.

By the way, I have read "The Children Are Free"--eye opening. I'm halfway through "In the Eye of the Storm". Both very good and I don't plan on stopping there.

And how do you find a counselor that will understand the situation and not just judge you?

Thank God you are all so patient in here!!:):pray:

:pray::love:

You will need to go with your instinct, and your integrity, and in a crisis (which this is) it can take a while to sift through and identify what that 'best approach' is. There is no formula.

It sounds like you are doing some catastrophizing (every scenario in your head leads to disaster.) I do that too when struggling with decisions, and still haven't learned how not to, so I won't even pretend to advise. Just empathize. :love:

RE: therapists. I am sure there are therapists somewhere within your region who are supportive of gay individuals, who may have perhaps dealt with couples in your situation before and helped them to a mutual decision about what this means for their marriage.

Check out the resources that the gay community in your area provides. Were you able to find out if there is any kind of support group or therapy near you specifically for Mixed Orientation Marriages? That would be the first place I would look towards finding a trustworthy counselor to talk to about your situation.
If that does not work, or if there is no support for M.O.M.s in your area, then pursue other avenues towards locating a therapist.
U-dog probably has good suggestions about how to begin the search for a trustworthy counselor.

[u-dog]

PP66,

Most secular therapists are going to be open and affirming of your sexuality. Stay away from anyone who advertises as being a "Christian" counselor or therapist. They almost ALWAYS have a conservative evangelical bias and will probably believe in and advocate for reparative therapy.

When you have found someone, you will not be the first person to walk through their door and share this information. You will not be the first MARRIED person to do so. If you get any negative vibe from the therapist then don't make a second appointment. If you get the sense that this person already knows what you should do (i.e. stay together or split up) then don't make a second appointment. You want someone who is going to listen to you and help you figure out what to do next. I suggest seeking out someone with the letters "MFT" or "LMFT" behind their name. These are Marriage and family therapists (licensed or unlicensed) and will have the most experience with the emotional systems that exist within families. I'm married to one and we have GONE to another so I have great confidence in that particular theoretical model.

Also, check out the website of Joe Kort. http://www.joekort.org He is a gay therapist in Chicago who has worked a lot with GLBT people, coming out issues, and mixed orientation marriages. He is very open to the full range of outcomes for MOMs and has some really helpful stuff on his website.

U-dog

[tymejumper]

Try googling the gay yellow pages. This is a site with all types of listings for gay people. If you look in the phone book under therapist/councilors they should have some listed for gay or gender issues. Wisconsin is a pretty liberated area I have heard(the truth however may be wrong). There should be resources. Have you tried PFLAG? They would also have resources for you. The phone book has some listings for gay hot lines and such. Try The triangle organization. They may have a chapter in Wisconsin.

The most important thing to remember is DON"T PANIC! It's OK to feel out of control right now, we all do and we all make it. Just relax as much as possible and breath deep. Take it one step, on day , or one breath at a time. Believe it or not, there will be a teachable moment with your wife and you will know it's the time to say something.

I still would say to get therapy before you approach the subject and get things all sorted in your head first. You need to be comfortable with yourself as a gay man before you can effectively and comfortably out yourself to others. You will get there, there is no big hurry, take your time and go slow. Little bitty steps and you will find yourself feeling better about it all.

I wish I could offer better advice, but unfortunately, it's not an easy thing and there is no easy way. You just have to go through it and no one does it the same way. You will be ok, just hang in there, we are here for you!:love:

[BrianB]

You have my prayers and support, pianoplayer66. When I came out to my parents as bi' I wrote them each a letter. My letter was based on someone else's coming out letter. After they had received their letters I followed up with a phone call to each of them. My terriblizing had me convinced that they would never talk to me again. The reality was that they both assured me that they still love me. Mom had the most problem because she is convinced that unless I repent... I know it's not the same as coming out to a spouse but that is my story. Again, you have my prayers.

PS I played clarinet in the church band. :)

[Daniel]

I searched for a referral from a respected and knowledgeable source.

In my case, I was looking for someone who had clinical experience in dealing with childhood trauma. And I found just such a person who is on the faculty of school. My therapist has a LMSW. That 'L" means that she is licensed. The MSW means Master's of Social Work.

[u-dog]

Piano Player,

You might want to consult the website of the Wisconsin Professional licensing board. It will tell you the liscensing requirements for each of the kinds of counseling professionals. In my midwestern state the practical requirements for Clinical Social Worker, clinical psychologist, and Licensed Marriage and family therapists are quite similar (in terms of the number of supervised hours needed before one can be licensed. here it is in the neighborhood of a thousand hours). Clinical Psychologist must also do a research componant which is not required of the others. The term "psycho-therapist" doesn't refer to a licensed specialty and may be used to refer to any of the three specialities above. a professional with an MA, and MFT, or an MSW can be refered to as a psychotherapist whether or not they are licensed.

[pianoplayer66]

Well, a lot of you have been encouraging me to take steps. Sat nite my wife was working on her adult sunday school lesson which is talking about the infallibility/fallibility of scripture, translations, historical context, etc. After just reading 'The children Are free", I was just bursting with examples for her lesson. I just couldn't contain myself and told her a few examples. She didn't use the examples because there were others that were listed in the materials. However, she was impressed...and said 'I really think my feelings on the gay issues have changed a lot over the years. With this kind of information, maybe it is time we allow them to be ordained.' I was blown away! Later, she asked me why I had been reading all of this. I freaked and told her it was for the issues that are facing our Presbytery (which is part true since this issue is coming up in our Presbytery in the next 12-24 months and I will be somewhat involved in it as our church's representative.) Of course it is only half the truth...one more lie and hole for myself.

Anyway, I just had to let you all know and again thank you for the support.

My motto right now is 'baby steps are steps too!'

Thanks:pray::love:

[Zerbie]

Wow, big stuff!

In an environment where such things are never even mentioned, it is a big deal that you brought it up and shared your reading. Otoh, we see where you had an opportunity to raise the issue that is really on your mind, but you weren't ready for it.

I would suggest you do whatever it takes to feel secure in yourself so that you can 'go there' the next time you and she start opening up the subject in that way. Do you think she might be wondering about you?

I do think your wife deserves to know what is going on, but wouldn't suggest you tell her anything you yourself are not ready to handle, especially if you are concerned about your ability to deal with her reaction. You will need to feel more secure in yourself before facing something as big as that.

Maybe Udog or some of the others who are/have been married and in your situation may have suggestions for you on steps to take to keep building up your inward strength.

Just bringing up the subject in your environment is a big step. Maybe now is the time to nurture yourself for a short time before taking the next big step. I don't know.

I do think that you should have an idea of how both of you can reach out for support for when the time comes that you tell her this information.

[keltic63]

My motto right now is 'baby steps are steps too!'

Thanks:pray::love:

good for you!

I think that your wife may have been giving you another opportunity, but you at least had a conversation. And maybe you feel like you dug a hole, but I don't think you lied. You did not state something that was false, you may have withheld all the information. There's a difference, and while full disclosure might be best at some point, for you, Saturday evening was not quite the right time.

baby steps. you're doing great.

[Daniel]

I agree with Steve: your wife may be giving you an opportunity to come out. Is that a conscious thing on her part? Could be. Could also be that she has a feeling that she can't quite put her finger on. Either way, it sounds as though you are well on your way to disclosure- that is- when you are ready.

[wmanion]

I also took baby steps and as I was also confronted with a similar situation. I was single and raising my three kids and I had a good friend who was gay. He would come to the house to visit and it was no secret that he was gay. My oldest son one day asked me if anything was going on between my friend and I. I told him no. Later when I came out to him in a heart to heart talk he brought up the conversation where he asked me if anything was going on. He felt that I had lied to him. I told him that my friend and I were just friends and nothing had ever happened between us and that when he had asked I answered his question honestly, I just did not divulge to him that I was also gay. I apologized to him for making him feel like I had lied, especially since I had always taught the kids they could be open with me about anything (which at times they were and sometimes it was TMI...LOL), and I explained the reason that I did not come out earlier was because the kids were not old enough to chose which parent they wanted to live with and I had a deep fear of losing my kids because of my sexuality. He did understand and we have a great relationship and always will. I will be not only praying for you but also that God will give your wife the gift of understanding.

Bill

[tymejumper]

How Wonderful! It sounds like she is opening her mind and being accepting.

I am not sure I can give good advice about coming out, since my ex knew I was gay, but I thought myself to be Bi, not just Lesbian. I was 19 when I got married and had not really found out who I was. Also, some of us have to think and be presented with irrefutable truths before we accept the inevitable:lol::lol::lol::lol:

I guess I would just continue to talk to her about gay persons in general. I think I would reassure her she is your best friend and always will be no matter what. (I believe you said you were trying to rekindle your relationship in earlier posts. ) Let her know that your feelings have changed but that you don't want to lose her. You cherish your past and children and all that you have, but you have questions about your relationship. I think that would be an ok way to start.

I wish I had the answer but it's so different for each person that no one has THE answer. I do know that this will be one of the scariest thing you ever do and a therapist would be able to guide you through it.

That's my 2 cents for what it's worth!:D

[scott snedeker]

Well, a lot of you have been encouraging me to take steps. Sat nite my wife was working on her adult sunday school lesson which is talking about the infallibility/fallibility of scripture, translations, historical context, etc. After just reading 'The children Are free", I was just bursting with examples for her lesson. I just couldn't contain myself and told her a few examples. She didn't use the examples because there were others that were listed in the materials. However, she was impressed...and said 'I really think my feelings on the gay issues have changed a lot over the years. With this kind of information, maybe it is time we allow them to be ordained.' I was blown away! Later, she asked me why I had been reading all of this. I freaked and told her it was for the issues that are facing our Presbytery (which is part true since this issue is coming up in our Presbytery in the next 12-24 months and I will be somewhat involved in it as our church's representative.) Of course it is only half the truth...one more lie and hole for myself.

Anyway, I just had to let you all know and again thank you for the support.

My motto right now is 'baby steps are steps too!'

Thanks:pray::love:



I think she knows you are gay. I also think she is taking baby steps with you so as not to scare you or herself. I think she will surprise you again with undestanding and compassion.

Funny how in the end she may feel that you are entitled to more understanding than you feel yourself to be. :cool:

[Zerbie]

I think she knows you are gay. I also think she is taking baby steps with you so as not to scare you or herself. I think she will surprise you again with undestanding and compassion.

Funny how in the end she may feel that you are entitled to more understanding than you feel yourself to be. :cool:

Oh holy smokes! :p

I read your post twice, Pianoplayer, before responding, but I still didn't see that your wife was the one who said she had changed her feelings on gay issues. I thought that you had said that!

It does sound like she may be wondering about you, and trying to open a path for you to tell her, if so.
It's certainly possible. You're there, around her everyday. So you would be in a better position to sense if that might be the case.

I wish both of you all the very best as you approach this issue. And, dear Piano Player, I wish you much courage.

:pray: :love::love:

[spiritplgrm]

Piano, as a child of a family that was virtually destroyed by this similiar situation..I truly plead with you to be honest with your best friend...My stepfather waited way to late into to the marriage to my mother before telling her..and it, well as you can imagine destroyed her....(and on top of this her eldest daughter, me, was a lesbian; though she passed before I ever came out to her) There is nothing easy about this...but the longer you wait I truly feel the more damage will be done...sometimes doing the right thing is the most painful thing. My prayers are with you.

[pianoplayer66]

Well, once again, thank you all for all of your support. Only each of you could understand without me having to try to explain.

I'm doing more reading, trying to ready myself for a decision, and realizing that every day my feelings may be different (come out, don't, etc.) so right now I am waiting until I either can't stand it anymore or decide I am really ready. I hope the latter comes first!:pray:

Friday my wife and I leave for a week long vacation to Maine to see the coast and stay in some lovely b and b's. We are looking forward to it a lot. I have been really stressed and work hasn't helped so I am looking forward to relaxing. We have never been there so it will be fun. (anyone have any suggestions on what to do/see?? Gay clubs are probably out of the question though:lol:

She still is my best friend. I miss my ex-bf a lot, but he isn't ready to start anything over at this point. He still works for me part time and we stay professional. It's hard, but it's better than not seeing him at all I think:confused:. He also works part time for a travel agent so he was the one that booked our trip! Sort of weird, but he is great at it, so I couldn't refuse the offer.

Thanks again to all. You are God's hands in my life right now.:love:

[Daniel]

Piano- just a thought here in the form of a question: what do you feel in your gut about coming out when you are really- and I mean really- quiet inside? Do you feel supported from the inside out? I ask this because my sense is that it will be a lot better to take action from a place of stillness, or inner knowing, of repose, rather than feeling as though you can't stand the pressure anymore. What you don't need is a heart attack or something of the sort. Get my drift?

I'm glad you are going on vacation. I hope you have some fun. You deserve it.

[u-dog]

LOBSTER !!!

If its warm enough, there are these places along the coast where they take the lobsters out of the boat and plop them into one of three tanks (small, medium, and large) you pick the one you want to eat and they fish it out and cook it for you on the spot, then you sit at a picnic table and chow down. MMMMMMMMM !!!!!!!

I did that with a friend once when I went to visit him. I chose the lobster that ate toledo and my friend chose the incredible 50 foot lobster. AMAZING!!!

[Matt Algren]

...and stay in some lovely b and b's.
Any question you had about whether you're gay should be answered by that quote. :lol:

As others have said, it sounds like she gave you an opening to come out a few weeks ago. Have you decided what you'll do if she does that again?

Whatever you decide, just know that we're here to be a sounding board.

[Juls]

For me, I am out with many but not all. For me, it takes time. I kept my secret for years and with some still do. Now my children know and they have no problem at all with it and knew all along. Many of my friends know now, and they knew all along. My boss knows but not all my co-workers. For me, I have never been comfortable being the center of attention so a "coming out party" would have made me miserable. Maybe it would have been like ripping the bandage off and I would have gotten it all over with by now but that isn't my style. For me, I give myself time. I am still working on self acceptance when it comes to my faith. Those of the Christian faith that know me are the ones I fear rejection from. Mom, brother, co-workers relatives. My non-Christian friends and family don't worry me at all. This place, here at Soulforce is new to me too and I thank God for it and everyone here.

[paul]

Hi Piano,

As I read through these threads my own take is to offer a note of caution. Your wife may indeed have inklings, and may even have suggested that it may be time to allow for gays to be ordained... but that is separate from her personal world. You know your wife best, you live with her, we're just kind of speculating here. She could go a lot of different directions if and when you choose disclosure.

You probably get the implication of my "title?" Those in support of nuclear power can appear even gung ho, until it is suggested that one be built in their backyard. Your status as a gay man married to a woman is nuclear. There's no getting around that. How she might respond is anyones guess, but it will be difficult for both of you, but what is the alternative? "dying in the closet," by your own assessment.

Having been through all of this myself, I am with the thought process of getting a good therapist (read: facilitator). Someone, as several have suggested, is affirming and doesn't want to cure you. But someone who is also qualified as a marriage counselor, so your wife feels cared for as well.

I am really sorry for where you are at in this, but can tell you it is much better on this side of the fence, IMO. As difficult as it is to deal with all the pain of disclosure, it beats "dying in the closet." Maybe you can think of it as the pains of re-birth.
:love:
paul

[ronmac1953]

Hi,

My name is Ron MacIntyre and my daughter Caitie is one of the equality riders. I feel for you "Dying in the Closet" because my story is very similar to yours. I too was a church organist and was married for 25 years when I finally came out. It doesn't have to be a disaster. I told my wife and there were plenty of tears but no real anger. We have always truly been soulmates and remain very close friends. I was lost for a long time after I came out. My first relationship with a man did not last long and I was lost and very afraid. I soon met another man however and we have been together for the last 9 years.

When I came out, my children were very understanding. Not to say that there were not problems. There was hurt and some anger, but they all tried their best to be understanding. The church was also somewhat accepting. They did do a special adult education program on homosexuality and the church which of course made me the star speaker! When I moved from the area I took another position as a church organist and from the interview I announced my sexual orientation to be assured that there would be no misunderstandings from the beginning. This church was fine with my sexuality.

Living my life as a total lie is something that I regret. I had been "out" when I first entered college, but that ended quickly when a friend was murdered. I retreated back into the closet as quickly as possible. I do not regret my marriage--my wife has always been my best friend and I can't imagine my life without her in it. But I do regret the hurt I caused her and the years I spent in torment trying to hide the truth from everyone involved. I pray that your story will have a happy ending. It is not impossible. It may seem so at many times, but I and many of my friends can attest to the fact that you can survive it and even flourish afterward.

I wish all the best for you and will keep you in my prayers.

[ocaptain]

It is now time to make your move. I'm sorry but I have to be honest here. I am tired of watching you die in your self-imposed closet. Your wife's demands for more sex and your unwillingness to be honest with her astounds me. I'm exhausted with your personal drama. Do something about your situation. Soulforce is behind you....draw on the support everyone is extending or just lock the closet door and stay inside. Reality is cruel, but your life doesn't have to be. God Bless You!!

[u-dog]

It is now time to make your move. I'm sorry but I have to be honest here. I am tired of watching you die in your self-imposed closet. Your wife's demands for more sex and your unwillingness to be honest with her astounds me. I'm exhausted with your personal drama. Do something about your situation. Soulforce is behind you....draw on the support everyone is extending or just lock the closet door and stay inside. Reality is cruel, but your life doesn't have to be. God Bless You!!

What an astoundingly arrogant post! I don't remember Pianoplayer ASKING you to watch him do anything. He came here to share his story and get feedback from others who have been down the same path. The people who have been down that path have each shared their experiences. Those experiences are as different from each other as night and day and yet each of these people (myself included) had the respect and honesty and humility to acknowledge that their experience was just that ... THEIR experience ... and that Pianoplayer was free and responsible enough to draw what wisdom he could from them and then find his own way.

I have gotten from time to time in my life ... from those VERY close to me ... a good swift kick in the ass ... and have later said "thank you" for it. But those were people who had earned the right to kick me in the ass. I have kicked others whom I love in the ass from time to time ... but I earned the right to those kicks by years of friendship and loyalty. You have earned nothing ... these were your first words to Pianoplayer. HOW ARROGANT!!

The only person who knows what to do next and when to do it in Pianoplayers life ... is Pianoplayer. He knows himself. He knows his wife. he knows his children and their needs. He knows the value of his friendship with his wife. He knows other things about his life which he has not shared with us. He is qualified to find his own way. He has given us the gift of being present with him while he does it. If that gift is a burden to you, then I suggest that you add him to your "ignore" list and forget about him.

U-dog

[Zerbie]

I agree with Udog. Ocaptain, your negative words to Pianoplayer were uncalled for.
If you are 'exhausted' reading about his situation, then just stop reading this thread.

[tymejumper]

It is now time to make your move. I'm sorry but I have to be honest here. I am tired of watching you die in your self-imposed closet. Your wife's demands for more sex and your unwillingness to be honest with her astounds me. I'm exhausted with your personal drama. Do something about your situation. Soulforce is behind you....draw on the support everyone is extending or just lock the closet door and stay inside. Reality is cruel, but your life doesn't have to be. God Bless You!!



Wow, that is really non-supportive. I guess it surprised me that someone here would post a post like that. We are where we need to be at the time we are there. In other words, he is moving forward as he comes to accept who he is. If you have been there, you would have realized that we all go at our own pace. Believe me, when you have children and a shared past, it is the most terrifiying experience you will EVER have, coming out to a spouse.

I don't believe he asked you to become involved with his "personal drama" as you call it. He came for support and he came to find others who have been there, married and gay, and to find out how they delt with it.

I am sure you mean only to help, why would you post otherwise? This post was not an appropriate way to do so. Trying to force someone out never works, we have to come out on our own. Do not be so quick to judge that if he does not do as you think he should he should lock the closet door.:(

[Daniel]

I like and agree with ocaptain's title line. It's a good one. And one I need to remember myself.

Life is indeed too short to be afraid. Too short to be hiding in closets or marriages that don't make either party really happy or fullfilled. But fear does that, doesn't it? It keeps us where we don't want to be.

How to be happy? I guess that's the really tough part. And my sense is that no one can do that for us but ourselves. It has to come from inside, not another person.

[keltic63]

I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire


well, this thread has taken an interesting turn while I was gone. :eek:

In addition to the above quote, which applies to all who have contributed, I have a few other thoughts.

what a boring place this is/becomes when we all sit around agreeing with each other and patting each other on the back.

we've tolerated much more hesitancy and reluctance from others who are afraid to take even the smallest of steps, than we have in this thread.

what true help and advice are we offering if we simply reinforce a person's thought life without any action ever being taken? have we ever stepped in and spoken to anyone about taking some action, and quickly? (hint: the answer is yes) have we ever allowed someone to return time after time with the same questions, the same tired arguments and excuses for not taking action? do we allow this person to continue this exercise in self-abuse? (another hint: the answer is yes)

[Zerbie]

Keltic, hon', I don't think any of us are suggesting that it's a good idea to remain stuck , immoblized, for long periods of one's life, especially when that immobilization affects others.

What we object to (or at least, what I am objecting to) is the callous and insensitive tone with which the OP was addressed. No matter how important or good the message, if it is delivered in an offhand and cruel way, it will not have a good result.

[scott snedeker]

Courage!



What makes a king out of a slave?

Courage!

What makes the flag on the mast to wave?

Courage!

What makes the elephant charge his tusk in the misty mist, or the dusky dusk? What makes the muskrat guard his musk?

Courage!

What makes the sphinx the seventh wonder?

Courage!

What makes the dawn come up like thunder?

Courage!

What makes the Hottentot so hot? What puts the "ape" in apricot? What have they got that I ain't got?

Courage!


But what is courage? For me it is to accept my fear and then decide to act according to reason.

So my first step is to accept my fear, appreciate my fear. Not fear my fear or grow my fear, but grow larger than my fear. And growing takes time and cultivation.

In a word........... Patience

[BrianB]

Courage is simply the willingness to be afraid and act anyway.
By Robert Anthony

I like this quote but it is also important to choose the right time to act. Pianoplayer is in the best position to decide the timing.

[paul]

Wow, I think this has turned into a really interesting discussion. I think what we are exploring here is very essential to living, i.e., the question of how and when to reveal the truth (by "truth" I mean "what is").

I have a few questions to throw in to the mix:

1. Is it proper to 'protect' someone else from the truth?

2. Can/do we 'protect' our self by withholding the truth?

3. Does timing have something to do with disclosure?

4. If we choose to disclose the truth, is there a best method for doing so and what would be the elements of that "method?"

[pianoplayer66]

HI!

I was only gone for a week, but it sounds like a lot longer than that.:lol:
First off, when I read Ocaptains writing the first time, I thought 'how dare you!". Then I read it again...and again. I realized that (to my suprise) that this response is exactly what I use when my wife or kids are faced with a problem all too often...1. identify the problem and then 2. do something about it! Don't just sit there and whine! So in defense of Ocaptain, I am just as guilty in my own life of saying the same thing all too often. And I have done some things to move forward in my life...wherever that may be....:confused:

I am currently looking for a counselor. I need one. Fast. And I have not been real succesful yet. I have always faught against counselors because of very bad experienses with what I now know were very bad ones when I was a kid. They were my father's counselors because he is a very bad manic depressive. We HAD to go as a family and it was a farse. But now I need a good one. Anyone have any good suggestions around Madison, WI?

Second, that is what our 'romantic vacation' to Maine was for...for us/me to reconnect and try and better know how I will handle the coming time with my wife ( how and however long that will be).

While I know some people would be more offended, I have a thinker skin than that, Ocaptain. And I think UDOG was right, there are times we all need a kick in the ass. I think I have been taking steps, mostly in my head, but that is the stage I'm at. I also agree with UDOG that this is usually reserved for people that really know the situation. But I have put myself on this site and left myself open for this too.

Daniel, your question is still haunting me. I really didn't have time on our vacation to think alone since we were together 24/7. I need to do that and I need the help of someone...like a counselor and this site.

We had a great time in Maine...No I didn't have any lobstah because I'm allergic to shellfish. But the Acadia National Forest and Bah Habah were beautiful. And yes, we stayed in a couple of wonderful B and B's!:lol:

What I did find out there is that I still love my wife very much! I can be with her alone, away from work, and it is like a wonderful life...for a time. But by the end of the week I was feeling just as bad as before I left and I know I can't have everything I want. Which would be to be married to my wife and still be able to have my family in tact but be honest about who I want to sleep with and be able to.....totally unrealistic!!! I know, I'm really screwed up right now and that is why I have decided to go get help.

I am very very sad when I think about my marraige ending. I committed to it til death. I know I haven't been 100% faithful, but I want my family and I'm just not mentally ready to risk that yet. Yet. One of the saddest part of this site is that everyone that I have talked to is divorced. Their families are broken. Three of my kids will be in college in June. That leaves only 1 at home. I keep thinking that would be an easier time, if there ever would be an easy time to come out since our 'family' would be moving on naturally, not broken by me.

You see, when I come out, I live in a small, religious right town. When I come out, I loose everything. My wife, my daily relationship with my kids, my businesses and livelyhood (my degree is in music education which I was rotten at. Now we own a pharmacy because my wife is a pharmacist. I'm out of luck). I have a lot of planning to do. And I also need to come to terms with a life without my wife who is really my best friend and always has been. Maybe it will work. I know I just can't imagine it yet.

So that is where I am....slowly moving forward...with the help of all of you. I don't know what the future holds. I am trying my best to let God show me one step at a time.

I was very moved by another thread that was started by a UMC pastor who is trying to come out to his wife and 2 kids. I understood his problem totally. People have been very supportive for him and his situation as a pastor. That is why we are all here. We need the support. And I thank God we all have it.

I am rested from my vacation, but now I have to face my real world and work again. Until I get more resolved in my head and in my life, I am swimming daily to try and get my blood pressure down to normal. Every step (counseling is next for me!) helps all of us no matter how great or small. This is the second big thing I have learned on this journey that only really started this last summer. The first was that God loves me the way I am....These 2 things will take me a long way. Praise God!:)

So, for those of you on the 'other side' of coming out, I applaud you! For the rest of us, please be patient with us and continue to help us in a loving way. That's what we need. That's what God wants. And yes, sometimes love can be tough, but never mean if done with the love and prayerful care of God.

Well, maybe my next career should be a minister since I just wrote a sermon!:lol:

:lol:

[pianoplayer66]

Paul,
You listed the questions that are running through my head all the time! At least right now, I simply don't know the answer to ANY of them and I feel the answers could be quite different for different people in different times and situations.

But, I would love to hear other peoples responses! They can only help all of us.

Thanks!:love:

[Zerbie]

Dear Piano,

I'm glad you came back with an update. Wishing you and your family the best through all this.
:pray:
Zerbie

[paul]

Piano,
I believe you are right about there being different answers depending on the people. I'll give my own particular answers from my own particular experiences, feelings and thoughts.



1. Is it proper to 'protect' someone else from the truth?

I quoted "protect" because I question whether it is possible to protect an adult from what is. I think it may be presumptuous. I think what we end up "protecting" is an illusion

2. Can/do we 'protect' our self by withholding the truth?

In a sense, yes and no. We hide to protect our self from the risk of rejection, or worse. But in so doing, we still experience rejection, because we are rejecting our self, the opportunity to express our self and the further opportunity to be known and loved by others. Since "love" is the food of life, if we with hold that food from our real self, we whither and die or become 'sickly.'

3. Does timing have something to do with disclosure?

I don't think so, not in the broader scope of things. I think it only delays paying the price, but the price will always be there. I doubt there is an easy way to come out of the closet, but I think there are better ways. I think you going to a counselor, finding someone who has experience helping people with this is a really good idea and will help.

4. If we choose to disclose the truth, is there a best method for doing so and what would be the elements of that "method?"

This is a tough one, and I guess this question is the one most subject to personal situation. I do believe that self disclosure is better for the recipient of said information than being outed. I think the idea of having a third party ( a neutral counselor) involved is a good way to do things. Someone who is at the ready to help pick up the pieces and maybe prepare you ahead of time for what you might expect. IOW, having a support system in place or at the ready.

[keltic63]

2. Can/do we 'protect' our self by withholding the truth?

In a sense, yes and no. We hide to protect our self from the risk of rejection, or worse. But in so doing, we still experience rejection, because we are rejecting our self, the opportunity to express our self and the further opportunity to be known and loved by others. Since "love" is the food of life, if we with hold that food from our real self, we whither and die or become 'sickly.'

3. Does timing have something to do with disclosure?

I don't think so, not in the broader scope of things. I think it only delays paying the price, but the price will always be there. I doubt there is an easy way to come out of the closet, but I think there are better ways. I think you going to a counselor, finding someone who has experience helping people with this is a really good idea and will help.



these two points are really resonating with me today. Today is my coming out birthday, and I gotta tell you, that day, only 5 years ago, was not exactly a happy day for me.

first point: I was indeed dying, I have no doubt. I certainly wasn't protecting myself or anyone else from anything by hiding the truth.

second point: the price was paid, would have been paid no matter when I would have come out. perhaps the price would have been less costly if I had been honest earlier in my life. When it comes to truth, sooner is better than later.

[Matt Algren]

I am very very sad when I think about my marraige ending. I committed to it til death. I know I haven't been 100% faithful, but I want my family and I'm just not mentally ready to risk that yet. Yet. One of the saddest part of this site is that everyone that I have talked to is divorced. Their families are broken. Three of my kids will be in college in June. That leaves only 1 at home. I keep thinking that would be an easier time, if there ever would be an easy time to come out since our 'family' would be moving on naturally, not broken by me.

At the risk of sounding like a jackass (which is pretty normal for me), your family already is broken, if we accept that term. You aren't available for your wife. That's not a value judgment, you just aren't.

What you seem to be worried about, and correct me if I'm wrong, is the perception of your family from outside your family. To my mind, what's most important is your family's health, not what the neighbors think about your family. And your family as it is today, based on what you've told us, is not healthy. Not for you, not for your wife, not for your kids.

As far as the 'till death' thing, I see your dilemma, but you also pledged to love her, honor her, and cherish her. It isn't loving to be secretly absent from your marriage. You aren't honoring her by hiding so much of yourself. You aren't cherishing her by removing the possibility of real marriage-quality love for her.

This is f*ed up, no doubt. But you built it that way. Do you honestly think that you can make it right without some level of f*ed up being involved?

[scott snedeker]

I would like to share my coming out story mainly to provide an example of some ways that folks have made this change.

In my teen years i had come close so many times to telling my folks, but I was so fearful of loos of their approval that I didn't do it.

At eighteen I'm off to college and only saw them on holidays, so I could keep up to the act.

At the end of med school I was age 26 and my brother was getting married. I was ready but I didn't want to steal the spotlight of a great moment in his and my folks lives.

Three months later I decided it was time. I was living with my first boyfriend. I was an intern in North Carolina and my parents lived in Florida.

I made THE CALL.

"Mom, Dad, I have found somone very special."

Dad: "Oh, me and Jerry were like that."

"No it's not like that, Dad." (they were motorcycle buddies)

"I'm Gay"

Mom: "Oh God!"

Dad: "Well it's only this century that it's been taboo."

And bless him my father tried not to let his pain, disgust and disappointment show to protect me, but it came out in a series of Tourette's-like homophobic jabs over the next 15 years.

My strategy was to time it so as not to be during a holiday, Not to steal the show of my brother's wedding, and to be abstract, hence telling them over the telephone and not face to face.

I felt that to give them and myself the space to let the impact sink in allowed all of us to adjust before being in each other's presence.

I think it was a fair way to accomodate the change.

As far as new people I was out out outwardly gay! I wore a gay flag oin and a pink triangle pin on the lapel of my intern's jacket below my caduceus pin.

I felt that I needed to face my gayness head on. I wanted it to be as obvious as my eyecolor and gender. I was prepared to meet homophobia head to head summoning courage each morning and...........it was a huge anticlimax 99 out of 100 days:lol:

Most folks weren't even curious just said something like: "Ok my brother's gay too.":lol:

I WAS ACTUALLY DISAPPOINTED!

Later I had my struggles. 9999 out of 10000 were internal. My first phase was the "fearless super-queer doctor saviour" which was, of course, a compensating disguise for a self loathing chump who sacrificed his humanity for people more worthy than he. (which was everybody)

Coming out I discovered was more self-awareness than others awareness of who I am. People's reactions to me are distorted reflections of how I project myself. Genuine self compassion is usually reflected as genuine compassion from others.

False acted out postive self image compensating for self loathing usually reflects distastefully in others.

So to round up this rambling post, what would I universally advise to those who are trying to come out?

Practice compassion and lovingkindness for your self until you genuinely feel it.

Then you have a gift to share.

[paul]

Ash aka Scotty

you are such a wonderful soul.

I appreciate the gentle attitude you had towards your folks, though I don't think their bias merited it. It's a funny thing, separating the person from the idea, especially when they so identify with the idea.

I felt that I needed to face my gayness head on. I wanted it to be as obvious as my eyecolor and gender. I was prepared to meet homophobia head to head summoning courage each morning and...........it was a huge anticlimax 99 out of 100 days

:lol:, yes.

My own fear of coming out and accepting myself at 50 was that I would end up alone, but finally realized that alone is better than lonely and unknown. Turns out, my own idea of how this would go was wrong also (are you listening Piano?), because I recently find myself hopelessly and deliriously in love with someone who feels the same way about me. I am in a state of shock after a lifetime of being told this cannot happen between two guys. It's almost like God is saying to me, "you really have no idea..."

So, Piano, there is another side to this. Your wife may be your best friend, and that is not to be despised, but whoa, words cannot describe being in love with someone who fits.

[keltic63]

My own fear of coming out and accepting myself at 50 was that I would end up alone, but finally realized that alone is better than lonely and unknown. Turns out, my own idea of how this would go was wrong also (are you listening Piano?), because I recently find myself hopelessly and deliriously in love with someone who feels the same way about me. I am in a state of shock after a lifetime of being told this cannot happen between two guys. It's almost like God is saying to me, "you really have no idea..."

So, Piano, there is another side to this. Your wife may be your best friend, and that is not to be despised, but whoa, words cannot describe being in love with someone who fits.

especially after so many years of being underwhelmed by love. and I don't mean that in a way that demeans former spouses of the opposite gender. it wasn't their fault that the relationship was so mediocre, or neutral. I had no idea what an intimate, loving relationship could be. and now that I know! WOW

and I agree (again) that thinking about a coming out scenario, or even planning it, would not match the reality. We might expect one thing to happen, but we can't control or predict all of the variables.

[u-dog]

Ash aka Scotty

because I recently find myself hopelessly and deliriously in love with someone who feels the same way about me. I am in a state of shock after a lifetime of being told this cannot happen between two guys. It's almost like God is saying to me, "you really have no idea..."

.

OK ... so ... Out with it. Details! (is there another thread someplace that I missed??0

[paul]

especially after so many years of being underwhelmed by love. and I don't mean that in a way that demeans former spouses of the opposite gender. it wasn't their fault that the relationship was so mediocre, or neutral. I had no idea what an intimate, loving relationship could be. and now that I know! WOW

and I agree (again) that thinking about a coming out scenario, or even planning it, would not match the reality. We might expect one thing to happen, but we can't control or predict all of the variables.

Dear Steve,

Yeah, "WOW" indeed :lol:. Oh, and happy anniversary. I know and knew you would relate.

While on one end, a part of me always dreamed that such a thing could be, but on the other end, the continuous propaganda had my heart confused and doubting. Both the husband and the wife are victims of the rotten cultural lies about gays that imprison many. The only "demeaning" thing is the lie, and the resulting damage believing that lie, and trying to make it work, causes.

I am amazed and applaud people like u-dog and polly, who have enough heart and soul to accept each other for who they are, have both gone beyond the lie, and experience love. Sadly though, most MOM's (mixed orientation marriages) don't end that way, usually one or both spouses have just simply been too damaged by the lies.

[paul]

OK ... so ... Out with it. Details! (is there another thread someplace that I missed??0


:D, no, I just subtly outed myself. It's still in the peel me off the ceiling stage. I really am in shock. It is absolutely unbelievable udog.

sorry Piano, I shouldn't hijack your thread. back to being a man of mystery

[u-dog]

:D, no, I just subtly outed myself. It's still in the peel me off the ceiling stage. I really am in shock. It is absolutely unbelievable udog.

sorry Piano, I shouldn't hijack your thread. back to being a man of mystery

I'm leaving now to go pick up my son. I will be home later tonight. I expect to find either a new thread or a PM waiting when I do! Don't dissapoint me.

[pianoplayer66]

So if I read this right, does this mean that Udog and Polly are both gay but still married to the opposite sex? Maybe I am missing this totally and I am sorry if I am offending anyone. If so, how have you made that work? What sort of arrangements do you have in your relationships?

Again, I'm very sorry if I'm way off base here, but if that were possible for me.......WOW!

[Zerbie]

So if I read this right, does this mean that Udog and Polly are both gay but still married to the opposite sex? Maybe I am missing this totally and I am sorry if I am offending anyone. If so, how have you made that work? What sort of arrangements do you have in your relationships?

Again, I'm very sorry if I'm way off base here, but if that were possible for me.......WOW!

Since this is out there on the forum in various places, I'm sure Udog won't mind if I answer this.

Udog and Polly are a married couple. Polly is bisexual. U dog is gay, and only relatively recently did he disclose to her that he is gay (maybe just a handful of years ago; he has since come out to their children also.) At present, they are still a married couple and best friends.

[u-dog]

Thats it... in a nutshell. Just one path among many. There are no "one-size-fits-all" answers, Pianoplayer, just the path that you and your wife plot for yourselves. Step one on that path is to share yourself with her. From there ... God alone knows where you will end up. The authenticity implicit in my disclosure has radically improved the quality of our relationship, but I don't necessarily advocate for the path we have chosen. Its just ours. You must chose together what you will do and decide what is ... for you... life giving. God bless you both!

[BenL]

Thats it... in a nutshell. Just one path among many. There are no "one-size-fits-all" answers, Pianoplayer, just the path that you and your wife plot for yourselves. Step one on that path is to share yourself with her. From there ... God alone knows where you will end up. The authenticity implicit in my disclosure has radically improved the quality of our relationship, but I don't necessarily advocate for the path we have chosen. Its just ours. You must chose together what you will do and decide what is ... for you... life giving. God bless you both!

Pianoplayer,

I couldn't agree with udog more. Only God knows where you will end up.

I am 64. Charley is eight years younger than I am. We have been together for nearly 35 years. When I met Charley, he was female. We became good friends, then best friends. I came out to him as a gay man when things seemed to be getting serious in the intimacy department. He said, "So?" We were married within the year.

Back in the early '70s there weren't many options open to gay men. I was out to a group of friends, but if I had been out at work, I would have been fired, I am convinced. Twenty-eight years later, when our two children had both left home, I came out to him again. We hadn't talked about being gay all those years. More's the pity.

We made up for lost time by delving very deeply into both of our selves. We joined groups for mixed orientation marriages. In the course of the second of two gatherings/retreats we attended, Charley found a way to articulate for the first time that he was trans. It's something he knew deep inside of him since he was 3 years old. Until that day, he had never had the words to express how he felt. I was stunned. I knew next to nothing about transgender people and nothing about being transsexual.

He began transition from female to male more than three and a half years ago. He is now the man of my dreams, whom I never knew I had even though I lived with him all those years. God works in strange and mysterious ways. I came out to him, but the disclosure wasn't complete until he was able to come out to me. Nobody was more surprised than I was at how things worked out.

Bless you both on your journeys. Remember that coming out is not an event, it's a process. The hardest one to come out to is yourself. Next hardest is the ones you love. But just because something is difficult doesn't mean you can't do it. Now that you have opened yourself to your own possiblities, you will know instinctively when and how to act. Trust yourself.

[pianoplayer66]

WOW

Thank you, UDog and BenL. It gives me more hope for greater possibilities. And thank you for letting me pry into your own private lives and situations. People like you are what make this site so fantastic!:)

[Ningmom]

My husband and I have been married for nearly 20 years. Pianoplayer, as I read the many posts responding to your first post, I thought about what my reaction would be if my husband were to tell me that he's gay. We two, like you and your wife, are best friends. While the news would be hard to digest in terms of "what's next for us?" I do know that I want him to be happy. I want him to reach his fullest potential as a human. I would likely know, on some level, that "something's going on." Your wife may come to a realization at some point after you tell her (if that's what you choose to do) that finally everything makes sense.

Of course, I am not your wife. But I do think that even in the middle of hurt and pain, people who love each other do want each other to be honest and real and genuine. I would hate for my husband to be suffering in silence just so that he could avoid the inevitable hurt to me.

I am not saying this to hurry you along. You have to take that step when you are ready. I just wanted to add my perspective here.

Ningmom

[Jennifer5]

Welcome! We're glad you have you here! :love:

[ocaptain]

Hello pianoplayer,

First, I want to apologize to you personally for my seemingly "arrogant, negative, non-supportive, callous, insesitive, off-hand and cruel comments". I've been away for a few weeks and didn't realize the stir I had created. I don't pretend to completely understand your situation, but it is not so unsimilar as mine and many others here. I served in the military for several years and fell in love with a married man with children. He felt the same for me. Not only did we live a seemingly secret life from his family but from the military community as well. He was frozen by fear and guilt and the prospect of rejection from family, friends and colleagues was unbearable. I was close to his family and spent holidays and vacations with them. Dec 6, 1986, he died in a single vehichle accident after dropping me off at the base to work an overnight shift at the Air Force hospital. He was heading out to fish at a nearby lake until I was ready to get off the next morning. When they brought him into the emergency room, a friend of mine called me on the unit where I worked to tell me that Kenny had been brought in. He had died instantly. I went with a grief counselor to let his family know. It was an experience that I wish on no one. It was also a defining moment in my life. His wife told me that she always knew about us but that because he was such a good father, friend and husband she had encouraged him to be himself. He never told me this himself. I was more devastated by the fact I had let a secret control my life when there was no reason to be fearful and self-loathing. I learned that love is quite resilient in how it draws us all together during very difficult times. I have not been afraid since. In 2005 I celebrated my 50th birthday by tandem skydiving. I did this to "feel alive". His widow showed up for that celebration with her daughter and 2 grandchildren. That moment made me feel more alive than the 12,000 foot leap I had just completed.

My words were terse and I apologize to you. The responses from others were painful but they also showed that their is a loving community right here who is willing to support you even though they seem to be a bit overprotective.

If we coddle each other, the closet becomes a safe place. If we push lovingly, we may enjoy some semblance of self-worth before we die but many defining moments in our lives happen when someone from relative obscurity says something that hits a personal nerve. It is natural to react with indignation and anger. It is also natural to want to understand our reactions. I believe that you have come very far since your original post.

I pray that you continue to find strength . I have learned that the opposite of love is not hate; the opposite of love is fear.

Take good care,

Sincerely,

Bill

[pianoplayer66]

Thanks, Ocaptain. As I said, no offense taken, but your appology was very heartfelt and easy to accept.

I agree, that if we make it too easy in the closet, we will just stay.

I have been gone for some time also. So much has happened. First of all, my oldest daughter is engaged to a wonderful guy that spent this last summer with us. We are very happy. I think the second daughter will do the same soon. Two weddings...probably both in 2010....We are already starting to save, belive me!

My exbf called last week, very depressed. He found out that he has a 'health problem' that he caught since we have been together (almost a year now) that isn't 'life threatening but has totally screwed up his future'. He wouldn't tell me what it was, but was trying to warn me. Warning well taken. While I haven't always played safe in the past, I am glad I have since I met him.

One of my wife's life-long friends that we both know well called yesterday to tell us that her husband died in his sleep of a heart attack at age 53. A wee bit close to home for us.

and finally, my wife and I. We are doing better. We have openly been talking about gays and gays in the church. It helps that I am a representative for our church to our Presbytery for this issue. I have shared with her some of the books I have been reading and she has been listening. She is definately not as against gays as I thought...in fact she is ready for full rights and almost ready for ordination also. But most of that is because of the major amounts of discussions we have had on this topic lately.

So because of everything that has happened in the last month I am not feeling so trapped and depressed, but I am also moving on and taking steps forward. For me.:)

[scott snedeker]

You have definitely moved forward! And by doing this gradually it is possible that your coming out will be anticlimactic. THere are worse fates.

I think your wife knows already and is waiting for you to be more comfortable telling her. It may be that you and she will still be family, but you will be able to allow yourself to let in the joy of male intimacy. You may have just handled this the best way possible!

Monogamy true monogamy is in my experience, rare and usually contrived. Monogamy for it's own sake is often harmful and a fear-driven behaviour contrary to human nature. Our "attachment" to monogamy is strong, however, and not easily released.

There are no monogamous primates and about 2 known monogamus mammals. Monogamy in nature is generally limited to some species of birds and lizards. I am in a polyandrous relationship with others in a love circle. This is my family a family of communal male intimacy.

I'm not suggesting that you should join a gay hippie commune. (although there is one near you in Vermont) I'm showing you one of the innumerable alternatives to monogamy. Most here would be descibed as living mono-andry or monogyny. Although I believe Isoandry and Isogyny would be more specifically accurate if these were truly legitimate words.

[pianoplayer66]

Well, since I last logged on, I have started seeing a counselor. She is gay and specializes in gay issues.

I went in asking for the 'tools' to make my marriage work. To help me get back into my marriage as a move active player.

She agreed to try and help, but made no promises since she felt it would be simply again repressing who I really am. I am beginning (again) to understand her point more clearly.

She has talked a lot about trust....something that can only be earned. I understand that. But I feel I have really screwed the trust between my wife and I up. If I come out to her and tell her that this has been my disires since before we were married and never told her, how do I ever regain her trust that there aren't other secrets I haven't told her or things I have done that I haven't told her. (I really don't know that if she somehow found out today that I could admit to her that I have had and affair and a few flings over the years. Heterosexual affairs of her father is what destroyed their family and took a decade or more for her to get over.)

This thought thread of trust is another whole thing that I haven't come to grips with or fully understand.

Any comments?

[u-dog]

Pianoplayer,

If your counselor's first words to you were not "bring your wife in here on the double" you are seeing the wrong counselor. There are no "tools" to save your marriage that don't include your wife as a full and equal participant. Anyone who says otherwise is a charletan. You may or may not end up staying in your marriage ... chances are that you will not (only about 15% of couples are still together 2 years post-disclosure)... but the only way forward for the two of you includes full disclosure of who you are.

I am sure that you are accurate that the trust issue will be the primary one, given your wife's family history. You are certainly right that trust can only be earned and built day by day and week by week and year by year. that process is unavoidable and it only begins when you tell her who you really are. You only have just the two alternatives. Continue to live the lie ... and die. OR trust the truth to take you whereever it will.

One thing seems certain to me. Whereever the truth leads you ... either to a new level of intimacy with your wife or to a new chapter as an out gay single man ... it is better than where you are now.

My wife and I found our way to a gay marriage and family therapist. Polly trusted him because he is the 15 year life partner of a colleague whom she trusts. I trusted him because he is gay. He made no predictions or promises at all about what lay ahead for us when we started though there were times that he "held" the promise of our marriage for us when we couldn't. He simply gave us the tools to communicate honestly with each other about what we wanted and needed from each other and for each other.

Screw up your courage. Find the right time and place and TELL YOUR WIFE. Right after New Years might be good? Do some research and have two or three suggestions for a couples therapist ready and let her interview and choose between them (if she is willing).

Udog

[BruceChris]

Pianoplayer,

I suppport you, and I hope that things work out for you. I've been following this thread, but not posting. As an aside, in my mostly gay church, we have two couples, where the woman is still with the man she started to date, who is now a trans woman.

There is also a trans woman, from a nearby small town, married and with children, who is just now coming out, and transitioning. To avoid the complications of doing this in her small town, she is doing most of this in the Twin Cities, and in our church. She says that she is now out to her wife, and her wife is still with her.

As with so many couples, the question is "Well, just where do we go from here?"

In most cases, a woman stays with a man/trans man who is transitioning, only about %15 of the time, so you can see that our church must be a very special place, somehow.

While there is no direct comparison, there is always hope. I wish you the best.

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

P.S.: Whenever I hear one of these cell phone commercials, that ends with the claim, "More Bars, in More Places", I immediately think "Wisconsin!"

[Matt Algren]

Well, since I last logged on, I have started seeing a counselor. She is gay and specializes in gay issues.

I went in asking for the 'tools' to make my marriage work. To help me get back into my marriage as a move active player.

She agreed to try and help, but made no promises since she felt it would be simply again repressing who I really am. I am beginning (again) to understand her point more clearly.

She has talked a lot about trust....something that can only be earned. I understand that. But I feel I have really screwed the trust between my wife and I up. If I come out to her and tell her that this has been my disires since before we were married and never told her, how do I ever regain her trust that there aren't other secrets I haven't told her or things I have done that I haven't told her. (I really don't know that if she somehow found out today that I could admit to her that I have had and affair and a few flings over the years. Heterosexual affairs of her father is what destroyed their family and took a decade or more for her to get over.)

This thought thread of trust is another whole thing that I haven't come to grips with or fully understand.

Any comments?
So you're lying to her for her own good?

Come on, man. That's a gigantic load of bullshit. You're still lying to her every day because you're more comfortable with that than the alternative. Every day you lie to her by not telling her the truth is a day that you cause her harm. Stop it.

[Daniel]

To deal with the consequences of telling your wife that you have same-sex attraction. That's what I think.

At you prudent or merely fearful in moving ahead? Only you can say.

Yes- things would change between you and your wife once you tell her.

But you might want to think about how all this managing of your image, in effect, means that you will never really be intimate. If she can't know you deepest fears and desires, even if it is painful to her, how can you have true intimacy, with her or anyone?

[u-dog]

but you might want to think about how all this managing of your image, in effect, means that you will never really be intimate. If she can't know you deepest fears and desires, even if it is painful to her, how can you have true intimacy, with her or anyone?

precisely!

[tymejumper]

You know? Sometimes good things come out of telling your spouse you are gay.

She will be hurt most likely, but it could also be a hugh relief to her also. Women get insecure about why they can't get their mates to have sex with them, or be intimate with them, or talk to them. She may be wondering what is wrong with her. She may feel ugly or insecure herself. She may be wondering and suspect and feel lost also. It could be that she will grow closer to you and be even a greater more understanding friend to you once she knows.

There is no way to know for sure what will happen, and it will be scary, but unless you take the chance to grab the golden ring, you will never know. Good luck!

[pianoplayer66]

HI
Just thought I would let you all know what is happening.
I have been working with my counselor on being telling my wife. She feels that I am not really ready for the consequences or even sure how I would tell my wife. We are talking and it is good. I am at peace with it right now.

Somewhere the idea started that my wife and I are not having sex anymore. We are, it's just not at all the sex I am looking for or usually over the top fireworks or even as much as either of us would like. But, I feel if I still want a relationship with her (because I do...I love her and she is really my best friend) I have to put this much and much more into the relationship to make it even have a chance of working.

I appreciate all the support and thank each of you for it. :)

[Jennifer5]

HI
Just thought I would let you all know what is happening.
I have been working with my counselor on being telling my wife. She feels that I am not really ready for the consequences or even sure how I would tell my wife. We are talking and it is good. I am at peace with it right now.

Somewhere the idea started that my wife and I are not having sex anymore. We are, it's just not at all the sex I am looking for or usually over the top fireworks or even as much as either of us would like. But, I feel if I still want a relationship with her (because I do...I love her and she is really my best friend) I have to put this much and much more into the relationship to make it even have a chance of working.

I appreciate all the support and thank each of you for it. :)
I am glad to hear that you are making some progress.

As for continuing to sleep with your wife, although it may not be the ideal situation I think it shows a lot of love and respect for her. It's amazing that you are will and able to give that to her. :flower:

[turquoise]

i have a question - i was in deep denial about being lesbian and as a last ditch attempt to prove i was straight, i married a guy - there was some attraction but the marriage was a disaster and turned abusive and i got out. so the question is: am i (and those above) considered to be bisexual or lesbian/gay? turquoise:confused:

[tdogg]

Hi Turquoise!

Sexuality can be fluid, but at the same time just because you married and (I'm assuming) you had a sexual relationship with someone of the opposite sex doesn't necessarily mean you are heterosexual or even bisexual. I actually believe much of the population is bisexual and in the closet. ;)

Sometimes it takes a while to figure yourself out. From the little you posted, it appears that you married your husband in an attempt to 'be straight' and we know that rarely works out. I can't really tell you what your sexuality is, only you can truly know. What attracts you to another person? What characteristics are important to you in a relationship partner, what can you live with and what must you be without? What turns on your sexual 'lightbulb'? These are questions only you can answer.

I was with my ex-husband for over 17 years. That didn't make me straight. I denied by attraction to women due to a religious upbringing, potential family disapproval or worse (that came true) but eventually took time out for myself and decided to live my life for me instead of everyone else. I am clearly attracted to women and always have been. However, I also find the occasional man attractive but can't ever imagine 'going there' again. I have found the best and most complete relationship for me is with another woman. I connect on all levels, not only physical but mental, emotional and even spiritual. That is not to say I can't have some of that with a man, but on a complete level it's women all the way.

I would say that makes me a lesbian. I can't ever see myself in a successful romantic/partner relationship with a man, although I find many to be excellent friends and can't live without them in my life!

You need to just be sure and take time out for yourself. It's for you to figure out and it can even evolve over time. No need to rush to put a label on yourself. Actually labels can be quite limiting. Good luck and don't forget, savor the journey to yourself because it's ultimately more satisfactory and joyful then spending too much time worrying about the 'destination'. Cheers! :love:

[tymejumper]

i have a question - i was in deep denial about being lesbian and as a last ditch attempt to prove i was straight, i married a guy - there was some attraction but the marriage was a disaster and turned abusive and i got out. so the question is: am i (and those above) considered to be bisexual or lesbian/gay? turquoise:confused:



That is something that confuses alot of us. There are many of us here, including myself that have been or are currently married. Some of us married to prove we could be straight, or married other gay people. Sex is a pleasurable activity, so basing your sexuality on just that is not accurate. I like to think that it's where your heart is complete at. I feel more complete with a woman, more fufilled and such. So, I consider myself lesbian. However, I still do find some men attractive, could probably kiss them and enjoy it, but sex is pretty gross for me with a guy. I did enjoy it when I was married sometimes, but as I was married or with a man longer periods, it made me physically ill and I had to get up to vomit and shower afterwards because the smell of him made me feel ill.

I do identify as lesbian, but I consider myself to be less lesbian than other lesbians. I figure I must be nearer the middle than them as I still find guys attractive, just not to have sex with(I love to look at attractive males). The whole bottom line of this is that it does not matter if you are gay, lesbian or bi or TG, anytime you wish to be with the same sex, you're homosexual/gay. Doesnt matter what shade.

[Gennee]

i have a question - i was in deep denial about being lesbian and as a last ditch attempt to prove i was straight, i married a guy - there was some attraction but the marriage was a disaster and turned abusive and i got out. so the question is: am i (and those above) considered to be bisexual or lesbian/gay? turquoise:confused:

Hi Turquoise. Your post really piqued my interest. I'm a transgender person who has embraced my transgenderism. I told my wife 3 years ago that I'm trans and love to women's clothing. After the initial shock :eek:, she has accepted that I'm trans.

Turquoise, it took me nearly 57 years to find out that I was transgender. It understand your confusion because I sure was confused. I felt different all my life. Only you can discover who you are. I am rooting for you.

Gennee

[tdogg]

Sexual orientation has more to do with your heart than with sex. For women especially, sexual attraction can be fluid. Oprah actually had a great show tonight on just that - sexuality of women. In other words, she had lesbians on the show who used to consider themselves straight but finally came out as gay. It was a great show, and turquoise you might be interested in getting a transcript. I think you would find it really interesting.

[pianoplayer66]

sorry if this turns out to be long, but I need someone to talk to tonight.

I some ways, things with my wife have started to get a little better. I am depressed. We both know that and she is concerned for me. She understands that I am unhappy with my job (we own a business together) and my own life (not the kids or her, but who I am and what I am doing). We have started to talk about changes that could be made to move me into another carreer (I really want to go back to conducting choirs and doing more playing piano/organ, but that doesn't pay real well in our area). The problem is several things. Since then our finances have gotten worse just like every other business in america. I can't affoard to not have a paying job, and we have had to lay a couple of people off at work so we are picking up their work also and working even longer hours at a job that has come to bore me to death!

I quit seeing my counselor because of the money and also because every time I talked with her, I got the 3rd degree from my wife about what was discussed and 'don't you feel better!!!' Frankly, most of the time I didn't because nothing had been resolved....only more questions put on the table. We hadn't gotten to the 'feeling better' part yet.

There is part of me that would like to leave my wife right now, but I can't financially. I don't have a degree that is valid any more and no way to supoort myself. Besides, I now have 2 daughters engaged (yeah!!) and some how breaking up the summer that one of them gets married is just too cruel.

On the other hand they aren't getting married until 10 and '11 so I have a bit of a wait.

Oh, yeah, and I did the thing that I said I absolutely wouldn't do, and that was find a male companion. Please don't yell too much. I didn't intend for it to happen and I was not looking for it. He is also an organist and we met at a concert. Over coffee we found out we grew up within 20 miles from each other and he lives only 40 minutes away. We have spent quite a bit of time together talking. I joke with him I owe him my life savings for all of the therapy time. for those wondering, yes we have kissed and fooled around a bit, but really we are much more good friends....

My heartache tonight is that I have been starting to try and get back into my music career even if it doesn't pay well so I have something in my life to look forward to on a daily basis and a creative outlet for my life. I so much need to play and sing again with a good group of muscians. I auditioned for a choir tonight. It was embarrasing. I bombed. It has been soooo long since I have had the chance to sing classically, I couldn't even sight read a piece of music I once directed and sang! I am really bummed out that my skills have fallen that much and realize just how much I need to do to even find a small job in music again.

well, that is enough for tonight. I feel like I could write a book. Thanks for listening:):confused::pray:

[scott snedeker]

So you are trying something that is for your benefit only without sacrificing your joy for someone else by seeing this fellow. This is new for you...and necessary. What's more, you are entitled to this joy.

The problem is you have been taught by your church, parents, friends that you capacity for iintimacy with your own gender makes you a worthless deviant unentitled to anything. Your wife claims an entitlement; that sacrificing your joy is necessary for her joy and comfort.

But here is where that doesn't work: You are joyless and miserable. How can she be otherwise? Could you be happy living with someone who is suffering like you are?

So your sacrifice does not but her joy after all. In fact all it does is allow her to pretend that your lives are stable; to keep the dream alive by believing the lie while secretly kknowing it's not real. This creates a constant fear and frustration until it is unbearable and someone explodes.

It is fear. The fear both of your have of losing the dream. But it is already lost and replaced with a suffering nightmare.

You cannot be responsible for your wife's happiness, only your own. You tried and found that when you did, the result was misery for both of you. You will only perpetuate her misery and yours as long as you continue to try to keep this unmaintainable dream alive. She needs to be freed to find her joy. You are holding her back and torturing yourself in the process.

So you planted the seed of a new dream. A dream where your true nature and capacity for intimate love, which you now understand is with men, and not with women, can grow and bloom. A dream where you can have freedom from constant loathing of your greatest capacity for sharing joy with another being. A dream where your shining being is cherished.

And another thiing that is very important: God made you gay because there is another of His gay children who needs you. Go find him. And when the two of you meet and share His gift of joy, He will smile like a parent watching his child opening a gift on Christmas morning.

[Matt Algren]

Your wife deserves better than the lie you're feeding her.

[Poetic Awakening]

I am no expert, but I know you need to do what makes you happy. If you stay married, it needs to be because you both are genuinely happy to be together. If you aren't, and are faking it, there's no way she can truly be happy either. You can't force her to live a lie, just as you shouldn't live one yourself. It isn't healthy, nor conducive to the level of creativity you will need to pursue your musical dreams. You're in effect, cutting yourself off at the knees. I've learned that much in my own life.

And I'm sure we aren't trying to beat you up over this, or at least I'm not :love: But as a married man myself, sometimes the best thing to do is put the reality of the situation on the table. Yes, you may have cheated, but why did you do it? And I'm sure you know what she'll think of that. So why even try to proceed with deceiving the both of you? I personally would hate to see you go on like that if I was your best friend. And I think your wife might feel at least a little of the same, underneath her own pains. But going on like that isn't living, my friend. It's death. I'm sorry.

I hope you can work through this. I know how these times can be hard, especially with job crises.

[Daniel]

Pianoplayer-It sounds like you are trapped. It also sounds like you had the courage let yourself meet someone. Where did that come from? Perhaps therapy helped you more than you know? You've allowed yourself to actually feel good with someone.

If you keep things as they are, living by half-ways until, as Scotty has intimated- things will explode. And come to think of it, another scenario is possible: things could implode, like a house crashing in on itself. We can only keep ourselves in a state of tension only so long. And then....well...something's gotta give.

If you imagine yourself on your deathbed, and look back on your life- and haven't changed anything from now to then: what would you tell yourself?

The answers are within you. All you need to do is listen to them.

[pianoplayer66]

Thanks for the comments.

Scott, you are so right that the dream is already lost. I have faced a lot of defeats and failures in my life, but this one has been very hard to accept. But when you put it out there that it has already happened, somehow it seems easier to accept and move on. Unfortunately, financially and kids-wise I am still trapped for a time. Maybe until someone cracks, or maybe til I am able to move freely. Only time will tell. I look back nearly 2 years and think it would have been easier to have made the move then. But hind sight is not really 20-20 either so there is no use guessing the might-have-beens.

This thread has probably gotten way too long since no one remembers that a couple of years ago I had a very serious bf whom had he been able to accept his being gay in his religion, I would have left my wife for him then. But neither of us were ready for that and he is still denying everything to himself. We no longer see each other and that is good.

My current friend and I have so many things in common. We can talk for hours. I realize that part of that is the new exploration and learing about each other. But what I love is that I can be me with him. No hiding. No guilt. Of course there aren't really any major responsibilities with him yet either so it is easy...like a vacation. We spent much of the weekend together. It was one of the fastest weekends in my memory. I found enough energy to go back to work and my family and make it work for another period of time. I owe him a lot. No matter how this ends (with or not with my wife) I know he will be a person that I can always count on as a friend. Maybe this is the man God has sent for me to be with. Only time will tell.

Neither my wife nor I deserve the lie that we are living with. But for right now I am trapped in several ways. When those things clear, I can move on to dealing with this ultimate issue. Right now I can't deal with it on the table too....that creates too great a risk for my well being and my relationship with my kids.

Totally contrary to ALL I have said, I have had the sudden realization as to how fragile life is and how much we need to live it to the fullest in the last couple of days. My Dad has had some real heart problems a couple of days ago and the prognosis is only mildly ok at this point. Who said something about lying on my deathbed? you were so very right. With that in mind, I have to make a plan, set a timeline that is realistic to deal with the real issues and to move onto and into another carreer to support myself. I don't want to die this unhappy.

My motto has always been 'Life is short...Live it fast'. I have done that in many cases. now for this....:pray:

[Poetic Awakening]

Yeah, I forgot about the older friend in the original posts. But it's good to see you're a little clearer on this now.

Sorry to hear about your dad. My cousin is sort of going through the same thing, and will need a surgery that is quite risky. I'll say a prayer for the both of you, and hope your dad does well with recovery.

Good luck with dealing with this, and as we all know, it's easy to sit here and post the how-to's and the what-if's, but reality is never so simple. But it sounds like you have a good idea on what you need to do, for you and your wife.

[Matt Algren]

So...you're hanging onto your wife until something better comes along?

That's low, man.

[bnmoore]

Hi Turquoise!

However, I also find the occasional man attractive but can't ever imagine 'going there' again. I have found the best and most complete relationship for me is with another woman. I connect on all levels, not only physical but mental, emotional and even spiritual. That is not to say I can't have some of that with a man, but on a complete level it's women all the way.



I find women attractive and have had a few very intimate relationships. They just weren't sexual. Most people took us for a couple. We didn't care. We loved each other. When we did partner the partners didn't always understand the nature of our relationships.



I would say that makes me a lesbian. I can't ever see myself in a successful romantic/partner relationship with a man, although I find many to be excellent friends and can't live without them in my life!



When I meet a lady I usually tell them I'm gay fairly quickly if they can't seem to spot the fairy. I have some straight male friends that absolutely refuse to believe it. ( They like me. )

I had a little problem a few years back with a married female co-worker whose husband was career Navy and wasn't around much. It amounted to female on male harrassment. For several years after that I wouldn't even speak to a woman if I didn't have to.

I didn't realize how much I missed female energy until my church had a retreat in the mountains that's theme was "Oneness". I got my "Hug" on. The ladies weren't all lesbians either. It's a beautiful thing.

Ben N. Moore

[scott snedeker]

Fear makes us do things that are undefendable. We have all acted on fear and betrayed our hearts and the ones close to us. Matt, you have done so as well I guarantee it. I can't tell you how many times I hurt myself and others by acting counter to my nature because of fear of disappointment and especially fear of other people seeing me as I saw myself: loathsomely inadequate. In time that has changed as I became real and stopped the facade.

Piano, Keep growing your relationship with this fellow. through each other you are getting to know yourselves. Developing compassion for your self enables you to feel compassion for others and summon the courage to love for real. You are no longer isolated and that is crucially beneficial.

You are trapped in your mind. And by discoveing yourself and feeling compassion for yourself you are also finding a way out of the trap. In time when you look back you will see that the trap was all in your mind.

By loving for real you can find the courage to end the lie and be. Your wife and children will suffer pain initailly when they realize the dream is lost. But we are resiliant as a species and adapt and thrive in many changes. A new life without the lie will be genuine, stimulating and cultivate growth of all.

[drobs]

My $0.02. Take it for what it's worth.

Marriages end all the time. I would recommend you talk to a divorce lawyer before coming out to your wife. I hate to be cynical, but being a realist, I think you need to get all the information up front so you don't get completely screwed over.

I would recommend you hold off until your last child at home is either 18 or in college. Let them enjoy their childhood a little longer.

[pianoplayer66]

Thanks Drobs, it really is what I am doing. I don't think it is fair to put my last child's life into an upheaval even if we weren't to get divorced and I came out.

I'm not waiting for something better to come along. I really do love my wife as a wounderful and forever friend. I'm not sure she will see it that way when I come out.

In the mean time, your recommendation to see a lawyer now has me thinking. Maybe there are things that I should be doing now that would protect me in the long run no matter what happens. I should know that.

Much of the fear IS in my mind. I have come to realize it as I have talked with this friend of mine over the last few months. He is single, has been in a LTR twice, and has come out to his family. He doesn't really tell anyone else because he feels it really doesn't matter unless it he finds someone attractive or it comes up in conversation. Then he wouldn't deny it. I have come to feel the same way. I don't 'need' to come out and scream it to the world. My sexuality is my own business for the most part. However, when I do tell my wife, I fully understand she may have a different idea.

I want to thank everyone for their comments and support. It means a lot to me and a lot of other people on this site!:)

[drobs]

I mention in my introduction thread I was a part of a group called Transformed by Grace for a year after I was outed. This was group counseling that was self lead much like an AA group. The group was helpful to me as there were other Christians struggling with faith and being gay. They weren't pushing healing and were more about the struggle and God's grace to see you through it.

My group was made up of about 5 guys. 2 were married the rest were mostly single like myself. I lost track of the guys over the years but can empathize being married, having children, and being gay. A good friend in the group was in the exact same position but his kids were much younger than yours. He wanted to be there for his kids.

You have to take some of the "lessons" with a grain of salt. You also need to keep your senses to you in a group like that. The leader of our small group was an admitted SA (sexual addict). His views of sexuality were so skewed that he saw SA's under every tree.

Some of our group members branched off and started a group at Willow Creek Community Church. I went to a few of their meetings and found myself blasting their guest speakers in a question and answer session. The speaker of the day was attempting to put across the idea that sex was evil and having sex or craving it more than once a month made you a SA.

As I mentioned I made it through a year and quit. I came to the realization that I was finally happy with who I was. Being outed actually broke allot of my chains of depression and self doubt. It was a painful but freeing experience.

It's something you might want to look into. I don't know where you're from but I attended this group in Evanston IL around North Western Campus.

[Daniel]

drobs- finding and participating in such a group is an excellent suggestion: I had no idea that this sort of thing existed. When I came out in 1986 there I was pretty much alone except for the boyfriend I had at the time. That was the sum total of my support system. And that's a lot to ask of one person.

[drobs]

Removed by request.

[scott snedeker]

I think that it is unintentional but the link you provided is a notorious Ex-gay ministry that focuses on eradication "the affliction" of homosexuality on the world through "Christian" persecution. :headbang::injured::tdown:

This is a slip into sacrimoniuos spiritual and emotional self mutilation. It is and institutionaized betrayal of the heart and identity of us and our shining capacity for intimacy with our own gender. I get the image of cuttiing down an ancient redwood forest to put up a whites-only "Christian Church"

PS:

The Capital "C" denotes my mark of shame and betrayal of Christ's teaching by sanctimonious predators.

One strong reason I identified as a radical faerie is that the modifier "radical" gives power, distinction, security and implies an almost Budddhist release of attachment to the pathetic labels straight heterosexism uses to thrust privilege over us.

It says "We are separate at the rooted beginnings of identitty and thus we participate in none of your game of oppression of identity. You have no power of oppression within our self definition and hence you are are stripped of all entitlement and capacity to abuse and judge "

[Daniel]

I believe the larger group is called Exodus International.


drobs- please remove the link in your post: it violates the forum guidelines. My affirmation of a support group is not extended to Exodus. Sorry. But they've harmed a great many people.

[drobs]

I think that it is unintentional but the link you provided is a notorious Ex-gay ministry that focuses on eradication "the affliction" of homosexuality on the world through "Christian" persecution. :headbang::injured::tdown:

This is a slip into sacrimoniuos spiritual and emotional self mutilation. It is and institutionaized betrayal of the heart and identity of us and our shining capacity for intimacy with our own gender. I get the image of cuttiing down an ancient redwood forest to put up a whites-only "Christian Church"

PS:

The Capital "C" denotes my mark of shame and betrayal of Christ's teaching by sanctimonious predators.

One strong reason I identified as a radical faerie is that the modifier "radical" gives power, distinction, security and implies an almost Budddhist release of attachment to the pathetic labels straight heterosexism uses to thrust privilege over us.

It says "We are separate at the rooted beginnings of identitty and thus we participate in none of your game of oppression of identity. You have no power of oppression within our self definition and hence you are are stripped of all entitlement and capacity to abuse and judge "


That's them alright. Just passing on something that helped me in my travels.

[drobs]

drobs- please remove the link in your post: it violates the forum guidelines. My affirmation of a support group is not extended to Exodus. Sorry. But they've harmed a great many people.

No problem removed.

[Daniel]

No problem removed.

It's interesting that the founders of Exodus- two gay men- eventually left the organization, disavowing it, and becoming a couple- if memory serves correctly. It has a tortured history: there is a lot of information about it here, which you can find using the search feature.

[tymejumper]

I find myself respectfully disagreeing with the idea of staying married for the kids and letting them enjoying childhood 'a bit longer'.

Although it is a good idea to protect yourself in a divorce setting, your children will not thank you for letting them believe that you are something other than you are. I only say this because I have learned from experience, that this is true. My teenager suspected many years before I ever told her I was gay, and was terribly upset I had lied and tried to be who I was not. She worked through some anger issues about it in therapy.(anger at me)

If your children are older, I forget if you said they were, the courts will to listen to what they say with reguard to visitation and with whom they wish to live. Most courts start about 10 or 12, the older they get, the more likely they are to listen. I was scared at the time of my divorce as my ex swore I would never see the kids or he would get custody, but the Friend of The Court and the Judge listened to my kids and they were very young.

I guess the only advice I can give you is be fair to her, she gave you your children, but watch out for yourself also. My faith as a Buddist is what helped me. I decided that everything we aquired together were just things, and things are pretty transicent. I went through and split everything, and I mean everything, evenly and fairly. I allowed him to have first choice on the artwork and various things I did not need for the house.

It was a very freeing experience, and I learned a great deal about myself, like what was truly important to me, personally and what kind of person he was also. That is the part that made me the saddest. Finding out exactly how he was. To this day I am still not sure if the reason I was so sad is because I was married for so many years to a person and didn't even know who they were, or the fact he was so out to screw me in any way or form. The good part was that I was able to move on unburded and knowing that I did the right thing for the children and myself.

Whatever you decide, you need to first look into your heart and decide what is not only best for you but what, in the end, will make you the happiest. It is a painful thing to do, but it must be done. If you can move on knowing you did your best, you will have closure and be able to forge a good or better future relationship with your ex. If you look and decide you will stay, you can do it with a full heart and know it is the best decision and not have secret regrets.

Whatever you decide, God Bless and I hope it gives you peace.

Good Luck

[scott snedeker]

.....at how much your children and your wife already know in their hearts but are waiting for you to make the first move. I am more in tune with Tyme jumper's feelings. Waiting to come out for the "benefit" of the children is in part concern for them, but also justification to further put off what you are dreading. Perhaps if you look in your heart to try to understand how much is the former and how much is the latter.

Let's say 90% of the reason for not coming out is fear and dread of all facing what all know or suspect to a degree. This would be a difficult circumstance indeed. Feel compassion for yourself and the suffering you are enduring. Feel compassion for the 8 year old within you who is the innocent victim of pressures to conform to a role that is unnatural and painful for him. Offer yourself warmth and comfort and reassurance that you will make things right and stop the suffering within. Reassure this inner child of his/your entitlement to be happy and thrive just like his peers. Give him hope and a promise that you will protet him/you. Tell him he is adorable and loveable just the way he/ you are right this moment. Grow compassion for youself in this way by keeping you thoughts loving, adoring as well as sharing the pain to reasssure yourself that you are no longer abandoned and sacrificed to suffer alone.

Practice Practice practice! And in a while It becomes easier to do and you feel better. What comes with this practice is courage. Courage to defend yourself on the inside from self-sacrifice, Courage on the outside defend your entitlement to be real, and open and to face the challenge of not sacrificing this entitlement for another's comfort or convenience.

In other words to grow the courage to disappoint, or more acurately to allow others to take responsibility for their own disappointment.

[Daniel]

. Grow compassion for youself in this way by keeping you thoughts loving, adoring as well as sharing the pain to reasssure yourself that you are no longer abandoned and sacrificed to suffer alone.

Practice Practice practice! And in a while It becomes easier to do and you feel better. What comes with this practice is courage. Courage to defend yourself on the inside from self-sacrifice, Courage on the outside defend your entitlement to be real, and open and to face the challenge of not sacrificing this entitlement for another's comfort or convenience.

In other words to grow the courage to disappoint, or more acurately to allow others to take responsibility for their own disappointment.

I could not agree more..

This is the hard part, but the most necessary part, from my point of view. It's not easy. The easy way out is to impose a restriction based on fear rather than love/compassion for one's self and others.

If one stays closeted in the hopes that everything will be better some day....well...that is one hard bet. And what is it based on? Fear.

Let's supposed, for argument's sake that one wants to wait another decade (when the children are 18) before one comes out. That is a decade that has been robbed from one's spouse. And what is going to be worse, the fear or coming out now or the terrible anger that faces one later?

I agree with tymejumper: kids know when things are not right. They may not be able to articulate it, but they can smell a fake a mile away. I learned that teaching in the classroom. It's adults who fool themselves!

[awediot]

In other words to grow the courage to disappoint, or more acurately to allow others to take responsibility for their own disappointment.

That's a bit flippant IMO. It's like you are going to blame the person for being disappointed you really weren't like you've been pretending to be... Like they were a fool to have believed you and should now learn from the lesson you've provided...

[kara speltz]

That's a bit flippant IMO. It's like you are going to blame the person for being disappointed you really weren't like you've been pretending to be... Like they were a fool to have believed you and should now learn from the lesson you've provided...

Idiot, I can't help but wonder why you feel the necessity to turn everything into a protaganist situation. For someone who claims to have refound Jesus, you don't appear to have much of a sense of peace and/or grace, that I most often experience with people who have found their center in Jesus.

Kara

[awediot]

Idiot, I can't help but wonder why you feel the necessity to turn everything into a protaganist situation. For someone who claims to have refound Jesus, you don't appear to have much of a sense of peace and/or grace, that I most often experience with people who have found their center in Jesus.

Kara

"Idiot"...

Ironic way to open that particular sermon.


I'm just looking for help and offering a random mind hand in our search for ultimate truth, and sharing in what it does to us... In this, we are One... When I see what I believe to be a skewed or half truth that may be a source of excess harm and pain, especially in this rarefied context, I feel obliged to bring it up -just as I expect others to bring up my own incorrect thoughts and mistakes, delusions, excuses, and down right bs...

Thank you for doing so.

[keltic63]

"Idiot"...

Ironic way to open that particular sermon.


I'm just looking for help and offering a random mind hand in our search for ultimate truth, and sharing in what it does to us... In this, we are One... When I see what I believe to be a skewed or half truth that may be a source of excess harm and pain, especially in this rarefied context, I feel obliged to bring it up -just as I expect others to bring up my own incorrect thoughts and mistakes, delusions, excuses, and down right bs...

Thank you for doing so.

angry response. edited for reconsideration.

[scott snedeker]

Originally Posted by scott snedeker
In other words to grow the courage to disappoint, or more acurately to allow others to take responsibility for their own disappointment.


That's a bit flippant IMO. It's like you are going to blame the person for being disappointed you really weren't like you've been pretending to be... Like they were a fool to have believed you and should now learn from the lesson you've provided...


I knew while I was writiing this that "responsibility" was not quite the word I was looking for because it could imply what you said; that I blame the other person for being disappointed. This is not what I wanted to communicate.

I am genuinely appreciative that you point this out, because I have much to convey on this very facet of spiritual and emotional evolution

By "taking responsibility" I meant to allow others to be "in charge of" or "in control of" dealing with their own disappointment.

On the issue of blame:

I did want to convey that blame is something to let go of. Blame is no part of compassion for self or the eight year old inner boy.

Blame is a mark of shame and a tool for self-injury and a tool used to injure others also. Blame is a tool of emotional and spiritual unwellness. It is a manipulative tool I call "reciprocal indemnity"

Blame in this situation is "My family is suffering because I am inadequate and therby by my bad self screwing up as I always do I make everything terrible. My existence is only at the expense of everyone else's suffering because I am by nature a pain in eveyone's ass. Therfore how dare I make things worse and not sacrifice my life happiness and opportunity for joy because I have so much to answer for because of what I have done and already cost everyone by existing."

The above is the injurious reinforcement of mental unwellness that magnifies and perpetuates suffering caused by blame. I myself felt my stomach turn after I read it.




Reciprocal indemnity is: "you did this to me, now you owe me forever." I think The Catholic Church is the most excessive user of this manipulative strategy.

Blame and reciprocal indemnityare concepts alien to Traditional Buddhist teaching. In Buddhist teaching Blame is a human "attachment" to circumstances that simply exist. Blame is not an inherent part of the situation and does not exist as "god's judgenment" or anything else outside of the individual's "attachment." This "attachment" is the sole cause of suffering in the situation. Releasing this attachment releases this suffering. But the human mind is wiley and as soon as this attachment is released it will form another one. This continues in circles.

But there is another way...... the way of compassion which starts with one's self and grows over time. Instead of fighting the attachments they disappear as attention to them is diverted away from them toward compassion, lovingkindness and forgiveness.



To Get well

[Daniel]

I did want to convey that blame is something to let go of. Blame is no part of compassion for self or the eight year old inner boy.

Blame is a mark of shame and a tool for self-injury and a tool used to injure others also. Blame is a tool of emotional and spiritual unwellness. It is a manipulative tool I call "reciprocal indemnity"

Blame in this situation is "My family is suffering because I am inadequate and therby by my bad self screwing up as I always do I make everything terrible. My existence is only at the expense of everyone else's suffering because I am by nature a pain in eveyone's ass. Therfore how dare I make things worse and not sacrifice my life happiness and opportunity for joy because I have so much to answer for because of what I have done and already cost everyone by existing."


The blame game.

An old friend- a counselor- once said to me that these three words are often used to blame ourselves or others.

"I should have done that"

"If only I would have not done that my life...."

"I wouldn't have done that if you..."

The effects of our actions- or inactions- are- of course- very real. But perpetuating a state of blame- essentially condemnation- does nothing but make life a living hell. I don't believe any of us want to live life in this way. At least not consciously. However, things can be so bad that we can find ourselves acting out and re-creating the very thing that harmed us in the first place. Why? We can be in great pain, and finding someone to blame seems like good solution. We can even end up recreating a trauma because that is all we know. Sounds odd. But stranger things have happened.

What stops the cycle? Compassion. Sounds simple. But isn't this what Christ and others taught?

[awediot]

Originally Posted by scott snedeker
In other words to grow the courage to disappoint, or more acurately to allow others to take responsibility for their own disappointment.





I knew while I was writiing this that "responsibility" was not quite the word I was looking for because it could imply what you said; that I blame the other person for being disappointed. This is not what I wanted to communicate.

I am genuinely appreciative that you point this out, because I have much to convey on this very facet of spiritual and emotional evolution

By "taking responsibility" I meant to allow others to be "in charge of" or "in control of" dealing with their own disappointment.

The disappointment "YOU" caused... If "you" lie to your wife and kids about being straight, You have intentionally created a false perception and premise in their lives. When you yank it out from under them, YOU are at fault. You've perpetuated and schemed to deceive them. You ARE to blame and that SHOULD hurt you so you learn not to do it again... Of course now it lands in their lap and they must take responsibility for their own emotional reaction to YOUR deception... That doesn't make YOU any less guilty.

YOU may have very good, or even out of control reasons, but never the less... YOU are the responsible one. Don't pass it off to them because you've got a little boy inside who can't handle an adult life yet.

On the issue of blame:

I did want to convey that blame is something to let go of. Blame is no part of compassion for self or the eight year old inner boy.

Blame is a mark of shame and a tool for self-injury and a tool used to injure others also. Blame is a tool of emotional and spiritual unwellness. It is a manipulative tool I call "reciprocal indemnity" Blame is assessing the source of the situation... "You" steal. You get caught. It's your third time. You go to jail...YOU are to blame for your incarceration. It is your fault...let yourself feel like the criminal you are and if that's what it takes, LEARN from it. "Blame" is no evil thing when a lousy situation is in fact YOUR fault. Own it, don't excuse it; then grow out of it.

Blame in this situation is "My family is suffering because I am inadequate and therby by my bad self screwing up as I always do I make everything terrible. My existence is only at the expense of everyone else's suffering because I am by nature a pain in eveyone's ass. Therfore how dare I make things worse and not sacrifice my life happiness and opportunity for joy because I have so much to answer for because of what I have done and already cost everyone by existing."

The above is the injurious reinforcement of mental unwellness that magnifies and perpetuates suffering caused by blame. I myself felt my stomach turn after I read it.The above is wallowing in self-pity. It is an unhealthy over-reaction to owning ones responsibility and goes far beyond "blame". (and a feeling I felt which lead to my suicide attempt some 20 years go).




Reciprocal indemnity is: "you did this to me, now you owe me forever." I think The Catholic Church is the most excessive user of this manipulative strategy.

Blame and reciprocal indemnityare concepts alien to Traditional Buddhist teaching. In Buddhist teaching Blame is a human "attachment" to circumstances that simply exist. This "attachment" is not an inherent part of the situation and does not exist as "god's judgenment" or anything else outside of the individual's "attachment." This "attachment" is the sole cause of suffering in the situation. Releasing this attachment releases this suffering. But the human mind is wiley and as soon as this attachment is released it will form another one. This continues in circles.

But there is another way...... the way of compassion which starts with one's self and grows over time. Instead of fighting the attachments they disappear as attention to them is diverted away from them toward compassion, lovingkindness and forgiveness.



To Get wellOne can feel properly guilty and ashamed of their actions which hurt other people, and still love themselves at the same time.

If you do something crappy to another person (and we all do), admit it, allow yourself to feel crappy about it, and fix it. To deny the phase where you feel rotten because you don't like feeling that way, so excuse yourself as not to blame and allow them to shoulder their own hurt that you caused, is what is unhealthy... To just detach ourselves from the harm we cause is no solution.

[awediot]

The blame game.

An old friend- a counselor- once said to me that these three words are often used to blame ourselves or others.

"I should have done that"

"If only I would have not done that my life...."

"I wouldn't have done that if you..."

The effects of our actions- or inactions- are- of course- very real. But perpetuating a state of blame- essentially condemnation- does nothing but make life a living hell. I don't believe any of us want to live life in this way. At least not consciously. However, things can be so bad that we can find ourselves acting out and re-creating the very thing that harmed us in the first place. Why? We can be in great pain, and finding someone to blame seems like good solution. We can even end up recreating a trauma because that is all we know. Sounds odd. But stranger things have happened.

What stops the cycle? Compassion. Sounds simple. But isn't this what Christ and others taught?

...AFTER we owned up to the damage we've caused, THEN compassion comes into play...

[scott snedeker]

The effects of our actions- or inactions- are- of course- very real. But perpetuating a state of blame- essentially condemnation- does nothing but make life a living hell. I don't believe any of us want to live life in this way. At least not consciously. However, things can be so bad that we can find ourselves acting out and re-creating the very thing that harmed us in the first place. Why? We can be in great pain, and finding someone to blame seems like good solution. We can even end up recreating a trauma because that is all we know. Sounds odd. But stranger things have happened.

What stops the cycle? Compassion. Sounds simple. But isn't this what Christ and others taught?

I like how you put this, Daniel. Several of my spiritual teachers have also pointed out that analyzing and giving attention to these "vicious-viscous circles" perpetuates them and feeds them by adding energy to them. I feel an awareness evolving that confirms these teachings.

It seems that the farther from these "vicious-viscous circles" my spiritual evolution takes me, the more counterproductive and less theraputic my attention to them is for me.

In short, if one of these "vicious-viscous circles" activates I should only give the minimum attention to it required to release it promptly and refocus my attention on Compassion and living free in the joy or pain of the moment.

When I was living these "vicious-viscous circles" day and night, however, it seemed therapeutically necessary to focus on my attachments to them for longer periods of time. Perhaps this is because they came back so very Quickly after I dealt with them and had to face them over and over until I found a way to release them in such a way that they did not come back for longer periods. I suspect, however that the larger culprit was that I was so very much less skilled at practicing compassion, still very raw in pacticing this spiritual art.

[awediot]

angry response. edited for reconsideration.

:rolleyes:

[kara speltz]

"Idiot"...

Ironic way to open that particular sermon.



.

You're right this time awediot, it was ironic. I've just been extremely frustrated with your negativity and I let that push my buttons, and I shouldn't have.

Today's Gospel, says it all to me - Jesus sending out his disciples, two by two, instructing them to take no money, no food, just the tunic on thier back. In other words, we're sent in our emptiness to minister, not in our arrogance, not in our knowledge, but in our faith and our necessity to depend on one another. That's the message of the Christ as I see it. Jesus has little tolerance for know it alls. And truthfully awe, that's how you come across here, as if you know more than anyone else, and that sounds more to me like the pharasees than a follower of the Christ. Your messages reek of arrogance, rather than the humility we're call to as followers.

None of us have all of the answers, and it would be nice once in a while to see you acknowledge that you don't, instead of pontificating the way you do.

Kara

[awediot]

You're right this time awediot, it was ironic. I've just been extremely frustrated with your negativity and I let that push my buttons, and I shouldn't have.

Today's Gospel, says it all to me - Jesus sending out his disciples, two by two, instructing them to take no money, no food, just the tunic on thier back. In other words, we're sent in our emptiness to minister, not in our arrogance, not in our knowledge, but in our faith and our necessity to depend on one another. That's the message of the Christ as I see it. Jesus has little tolerance for know it alls. And truthfully awe, that's how you come across here, as if you know more than anyone else, and that sounds more to me like the pharasees than a follower of the Christ. Your messages reek of arrogance, rather than the humility we're call to as followers.

None of us have all of the answers, and it would be nice once in a while to see you acknowledge that you don't, instead of pontificating the way you do.

Kara

You know, you are right... My reappearance here has been anything but graceful. My honeymoon with this forum ended a while ago, around the time when as I recall, you had just announced you were leaving... I did.

Kara, when I see someone being soothed on the pablum that there is no black or white, in a public forum like this, I gotta step in... The question is where does comforting become enabling?

My bedside manner sucks, and I am sorry for coming back here with a pre-shortened fuse... You guys are taking the brunt of my deflected attention, and don't deserve it. I do really apologize... But I am focused and will speak what I think is the truth and try to remember this isn't that anonymous...


Comforting and Enabling (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6480)

[keltic63]

You know, you are right... My reappearance here has been anything but graceful. My honeymoon with this forum ended a while ago, around the time when as I recall, you had just announced you were leaving... I did.

Kara, when I see someone being soothed on the pablum that there is no black or white, in a public forum like this, I gotta step in... The question is where does comforting become enabling?

My bedside manner sucks, and I am sorry for coming back here with a pre-shortened fuse... You guys are taking the brunt of my deflected attention, and don't deserve it. I do really apologize... But I am focused and will speak what I think is the truth and try to remember this isn't that anonymous...


Comforting and Enabling (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6480)



since when do apologies come with insults?

[awediot]

since when do apologies come with insults?

What insult?

[Daniel]

What insult?

I think you were the one who stated that your bedside manner sucks.

[awediot]

I think you were the one who stated that your bedside manner sucks.

That is different than directly insulting someone...which I didn't.

[keltic63]

What insult?

the following, in red.....

You know, you are right... My reappearance here has been anything but graceful. My honeymoon with this forum ended a while ago, around the time when as I recall, you had just announced you were leaving... I did.

Kara, when I see someone being soothed on the pablum that there is no black or white, in a public forum like this, I gotta step in... The question is where does comforting become enabling?

My bedside manner sucks, and I am sorry for coming back here with a pre-shortened fuse... You guys are taking the brunt of my deflected attention, and don't deserve it. I do really apologize... But I am focused and will speak what I think is the truth and try to remember this isn't that anonymous...


Comforting and Enabling (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6480)

It's clear from your words that you think these forums are pablum. That's insulting.

[keltic63]

That is different than directly insulting someone...which I didn't.

indirect insults are acceptible?

[awediot]

indirect insults are acceptible?

Sometimes, yeah... If one of us says a certain belief is wrong, the person who holds it just might get insulted... There is no cruel intent.

BTW, I was the one called an idiot.

[awediot]

the following, in red.....



It's clear from your words that you think these forums are pablum. That's insulting.

Oh bull. I wouldn't bother on a site that was nothing but pablum... I said what I meant, and if I see someone swallowing the lie that there is no black or white, I will intervene to expose it...Be it on SF, CRAM, the phone or in real life.

[keltic63]

Sometimes, yeah... If one of us says a certain belief is wrong, the person who holds it just might get insulted... There is no cruel intent.

BTW, I was the one called an idiot.

now you're whining.

you've come here with a chip on you shoulder, have made it clear that you have much against the members of this forum, you've made several sly, offhand insults, and now you're going to cry about 1 incident|? an incident that could easily have been a typo or subconscious mistake, given your chosen screen name?????

You didn't answer my question, you qualified the question, then answered it.

Are indirect insults acceptible?

[keltic63]

Oh bull. I wouldn't bother on a site that was nothing but pablum... I said what I meant, and if I see someone swallowing the lie that there is no black or white, I will intervene to expose it...Be it on SF, CRAM, the phone or in real life.

they are your words!!!!!!! Take some responsibility for them or take a walk!

[awediot]

now you're whining.

Who's whining. I'm jyust pointing out the fact I was the one called an idiot.

you've come here with a chip on you shoulder, have made it clear that you have much against the members of this forum, you've made several sly, offhand insults, and now you're going to cry about 1 incident|? an incident that could easily have been a typo or subconscious mistake, given your chosen screen name?????

...hehheh heh yeah, that's what happened.

You didn't answer my question, you qualified the question, then answered it.

Are indirect insults acceptible?

I said yeah, sometimes...


Are direct?

[Daniel]

BTW, I was the one called an idiot.

Ah...something personal. So you do feel. Glad to know it. And that lead to your intellectual inquiry on another thread? If I was a Buddhist with a crystal ball, I would say that you intellectualize your feelings in the extreme in an effort to distance yourself from those very same feelings, which of course begs the question: who or what taught you to cope in this way?

The crystal ball tells me that these things usual originate in one's family.

Oh...why the way...this is the comforting and love you seem to need all packaged in that lovely S & M package that you seem to require.

[awediot]

they are your words!!!!!!! Take some responsibility for them or take a walk!

Read them again. I'll own them. Not your spin...

[keltic63]

Read them again. I'll own them. Not your spin...


folks, it's time to put this to rest. I'm locking this, and will lock other threads in which arguments are raging until the moderators can make some decisions.