Being gay in church

[pnggrad79]

About 3 months ago, my wife and I met with the associate pastor of a church here. A friend of ours assured us that we would be accepted and loved and could be ourselves and not have to shove ourselves back into the closet. So, I introduced my wife and I as such to this associate pastor. He wanted to meet us and "talk" with us. So we did, and he was very sweet, but said that the "official" party line was heterosexual marriage as God's plan for humanity, but they wouldn't bash homosexuals or keep them from joining and being involved in this church. Kinda like you can come, but we ain't gonna make a big deal of it.

Anyway, 3 months later, we are signed up to be a part of the new member class they have. I registered us online and called her my wife on the form. This same associate pastor calls me yesterday and asked me, oh so sweetly, to please not cause waves in the class by referring to my wife as my wife. He asked me to refer to her as my roommate or my friend.

I told him that I was not ashamed of our relationship, and I would go to the mat with anyone who wanted to "discuss" homosexuality. However, this was not the forum for demanding equal rights and such and I wouldn't embarrass anyone by waving my rainbow flag.

It angers me that I have to downplay my relationship with my wife here at this church, but you know, we may just have to take it slowly. There was a time when I couldn't even seek membership in this church, and now they are at least letting us in. We are not only knocking on the door, metaphorically speaking, we are in the door, and we will stay. I do not intend to be silent about our relationship, and I told him that. If anyone asked, I would be honest. And if the leadership wants to start a discussion about homosexuality, I will be happy to lend my 2 cents.

This church has been nothing but nice to us and a lot of people are accepting of us. The leadership seems scared of us, but welcoming nonetheless if it is only partially. :rolleyes:

What do ya'll think?

[labguy22]

I think it's wonderful that you have found a place to worship. There are many times, especially with my family, that my husband and I keep it on the down-low. We joke with each other that as far as my parents are concerned, ours is a love which shall not be named :eek:. They love him and have accepted him as part of the family, but prefer not to talk about our marriage. I honor that to a point and do not throw it in there face, but I also do not hide it.
When it comes to church, I feel a bit different. I have attended both a Methodist and United Church of Christ where being out and with my husband was accepted. I would feel uneasy having to give that up just to pretend for others that he was just my room mate. In essence they are asking you to lie, and in church of all places :pray:.
I hope this is not coming off as being judgmental or preachy, it is certainly not my intent. We all must choose our battles, and as long as you and your wife are willing to accept their terms, then all the better for you. Perhaps you'll be able to change a few minds and hearts when they see you are no different from them :love:.

[keltic63]

I agree about choosing our battles, but this minister has come to you and asked you to lie, all so that they can continue to feel comfortable about their own bias and prejudice. It feels, to me, that they are asking your blessing on their continued bias against you.

"do you mind terribly if we continue to treat you as something less than other people?"

no thank you.

[Alecto]

Put simply, I think I couldn't deal with it. If you can, and this church is important enough to you to be worth it, then more power to you. I have very little patience with that, generally, and would probably say "eff this" and find a different church.
In fairness, I might be a little reactionary right now too as I've recently started seeing a guy who works for a catholic church, and I'm not sure how well I can deal with that.

[tymejumper]

It would make me very uncmfortable to worship in a place that did not accept my marriage as holy. Perhaps that is why I do not attend church.

[nmwolfboy]

Perhaps it's just this particular associate pastor who is discomforted by your loving relationship. I'd be interested to hear how he considers it in any way pastoral to ask one of the flock to bear false witness against their beloved to the rest of the community of faith.

[pnggrad79]

Well, we went to the new members class and I didn't necessarily refer to her as my wife, but I said "us" and referred to "our daughters". So unless they aren't listening, they must have drawn the conclusion that we are together. I hope they did. Because I told this pastor I would not lie and tell people she is my roommate if they asked, but I would not offer the information.

On the one hand, it makes me mad as hell and I feel like just going in there and kissing her in front of them, but on the other hand, maybe changing hearts and minds of these people will not require a militant attitude but one of showing them our lives and that we are not threatening to their marriages or the church. I want to give it time, because he did say that we had forced him to examine some of the ways he thought about homosexuality and maybe God has us there to be pioneers and be mavericks in this forum. Hey we are in the door, we can only go from here.

My friend who invited us here in the first place, told me that she was glad to see us there and becoming involved. She said it would be the first time gay people actually came, didn't slink down in the back row and hide, but were out and open and unashamed of who we are. She said it would force the church to have to deal with us, and if they invite us to come as we are and be a part, then they need to put their money where their mouth is. If you want me like I am, I am a lesbian Christian who wants a place to worship my Creator and God.

We got a little pamphlet and this is what it said.

1. We are a family and a family is INCLUSIVE not EXCLUSIVE.

2. We will concentrate on the essentials-The Lord is God, and Jesus is His Son, and He died to save us.

3. We will be gracious with the non-essentials- We will not entertain debates about things that are disputable. (I thought, homosexuality is one those disputable things) We will not harp on versions of the Bible, dress code, hairstyle, building funds, etc.

4. We will love you no matter where you are on your journey.

So if that is their creed, I can live with it. I really want them to see there is more to me that just a lesbian. I am a Christian first. What makes me lesbian is who I choose to have a relationship with, and doesn't define me as a Christian. I can love God and a woman at the same time. And I don't think God gives a rip about it.

[keltic63]

Well, we went to the new members class and I didn't necessarily refer to her as my wife, but I said "us" and referred to "our daughters". So unless they aren't listening, they must have drawn the conclusion that we are together. I hope they did. Because I told this pastor I would not lie and tell people she is my roommate if they asked, but I would not offer the information.

On the one hand, it makes me mad as hell and I feel like just going in there and kissing her in front of them, but on the other hand, maybe changing hearts and minds of these people will not require a militant attitude but one of showing them our lives and that we are not threatening to their marriages or the church. I want to give it time, because he did say that we had forced him to examine some of the ways he thought about homosexuality and maybe God has us there to be pioneers and be mavericks in this forum. Hey we are in the door, we can only go from here.

My friend who invited us here in the first place, told me that she was glad to see us there and becoming involved. She said it would be the first time gay people actually came, didn't slink down in the back row and hide, but were out and open and unashamed of who we are. She said it would force the church to have to deal with us, and if they invite us to come as we are and be a part, then they need to put their money where their mouth is. If you want me like I am, I am a lesbian Christian who wants a place to worship my Creator and God.

do you want to be the couple that fights this battle in this particular church? if so, then you know what you're in for. In some ways then, this becomes your ministry to them.


We got a little pamphlet and this is what it said.

1. We are a family and a family is INCLUSIVE not EXCLUSIVE.

2. We will concentrate on the essentials-The Lord is God, and Jesus is His Son, and He died to save us.

3. We will be gracious with the non-essentials- We will not entertain debates about things that are disputable. (I thought, homosexuality is one those disputable things) We will not harp on versions of the Bible, dress code, hairstyle, building funds, etc.

4. We will love you no matter where you are on your journey.

So if that is their creed, I can live with it. I really want them to see there is more to me that just a lesbian. I am a Christian first. What makes me lesbian is who I choose to have a relationship with, and doesn't define me as a Christian. I can love God and a woman at the same time. And I don't think God gives a rip about it.

Then there really is no reason that this pastor should have asked you to hide your relationship. If you're up to it, I'd take the pamphlet to him and explain that his request that you lie about your wife (which is what he asked you to do) doesn't line up with the stated policies of the church and ask for an explanation. bottom line: you are either welcome there, or you are not.

[Matt Algren]

Well, we went to the new members class and I didn't necessarily refer to her as my wife, but I said "us" and referred to "our daughters". So unless they aren't listening, they must have drawn the conclusion that we are together. I hope they did. Because I told this pastor I would not lie and tell people she is my roommate if they asked, but I would not offer the information.
It sounds like you've entered into a "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" arrangement.

It's easy for me to say, but I think the church would be well served by some boldness on your part. I also think your daughters would find it less confusing.

[Daniel]

Oh...I think I would hate being in your shoes going to this church. It would be hard for me to put up with what has been asked of you. But you know what? I think part of being authentic is listening past the fear of others and standing tall, standing quietly, and radiating a certain confidence. That speaks for itself, more than manufactured smiles ever will.

Know what I saw in my head as I read your posts? You sitting in a pew, holding hands with your honey. Just being there. Not having to say anything. Just being.

When the time is ripe, I bet that others will seek you out and start asking questions. That's the adults. The kids? They will know the score at first glance. That's how they are. They haven't learned to edit out their best thoughts yet. And love between two people? That's a best thought. And you have that.

I say let it shine.

[pnggrad79]

I plan on it. I told the pastor that I do not intend to hide my relationship or be dishonest. I only agreed that this meet and greet atmosphere was not the time or the place to take this to the mat. I am proud of my wife and our relationship. I do not intend to hide it or go back into the closet just to appease some uneasy pastor who wishes he didn't have to deal with us. But he made the claim that anyone is welcome, and we could come and be a part. He said that this was a church who was INCLUSIVE not exclusive. So I interpret that to mean ALL and ALL means ALL.:)

[Rick336]

I plan on it. I told the pastor that I do not intend to hide my relationship or be dishonest. I only agreed that this meet and greet atmosphere was not the time or the place to take this to the mat. I am proud of my wife and our relationship.

ALRIGHT!!! :tup:


Rick

[scott snedeker]

I think that it may be simpler than you are anticipating. Now that the meet and greet is over you wil be merely one on one or in small groups. So as naturally and as casually as you can you might say: "My wife and I have been so thrilled to meet such wonderful folks!"......

And that's the end of the "covering" as Daniel put it years back. The word "wife" slips off the tongue so much more easily than "significant other" or "companion" or "life partner"

Ten years ago when I attended medical functions I had one of my colleagues who waas self-conscious and uncomfortable ask me: "How do I refer to Michael?"

I replied with: "Just call him Scott's 'other half', or if he is present he will be tickled if you referred to him as Scott's 'better half'."

If you are casual and natural, then they will likely be reassured and accepting of your marriage as status quo and not a spectacle.

If you are tense and evasive, they will likely be tense and avoidant.

[Daniel]

If you are casual and natural, then they will likely be reassured and accepting of your marriage as status quo and not a spectacle.

If you are tense and evasive, they will likely be tense and avoidant.

Reminds me of the phrase:

We teach people how to treat us.

Don't know where I heard it, but I like it. :D

[scott snedeker]

Reminds me of the phrase:

We teach people how to treat us.

Don't know where I heard it, but I like it. :D

Gonna steal that one!:cool:

[pnggrad79]

I love that saying Daniel, it is so true. We do teach people how to treat us. If we are ashamed, they will sense that and be ashamed for us as if our partner or wife is something hideous that we need to keep hidden. My wife is tall, dark, beautiful and I am proud as punch to be with her. She is the love of my life and anyone with half a brain can see it written all over my face.

I wrote the associate pastor and told him I didn't like having to downplay my relationship with my wife because 1. no one else was asked to downplay their relationship with their wife, so why was I? 2. if they are INCLUSIVE, then be INCLUSIVE. All means ALL. If that has any other definition, then don't claim it if it ain't true.

He emailed me and wanted me to attend a Starting Point class for questioning people who wanted to know more about the church and the beliefs of the church. I wrote him back and said that I had been in church since I was 11 weeks old and that I knew well how the church worked and what it believed.

It was almost as if, a gay person wouldn't know what the church is all about, hence they wouldn't be gay. I think they may be trying to "save" me from my "life of sin". Well it ain't a sin. Go try to save someone else who needs it.

[scott snedeker]

[QUOTE=pnggrad79;60360] I wrote him back and said that I had been in church since I was 11 weeks old and that I knew well how the church worked and what it believed.

QUOTE]

Maybe you should take him up on his offer since you have been in the church longer than he, and offer to teach as well as learn. Your position on inclusiveness of gay folk should be one of the foci .:cool: Affirm in no uncertain terms that this is your church too. THat room is to be saved for your life and family!

[Gennee]

You got in the door and that's a good step. Maybe God wants to use you and your wife for enlightening the members about being gay. I pray that you get the opportunity to do that. When you reach a crossroad you can go ahead or in another direction. I'm pleased that you have chosen the former.

Gennee

:love::love::pray::pray:

[Matt Algren]

I had an "incident" in church today. This Saturday is my one year Out-iversary, which means that my minister has known that I'm gay for 50 weeks. He's been supportive, and he's a great guy, but...

I just couldn't handle it when he wrote yet another on-ramp to talking about the gays into his sermon and drove right past it. The whole thing was about the sanctity of life, and how that doesn't mean abortion but acknowledging the sacredness of every person in every part of their lives, and he gave a few examples and brushed right up against it and then ... nothing. He was done, moving on to communion.

He's just so afraid of upsetting the more conservative people bigots in the church, and I don't want to be his Dirty Little Secret anymore. I've gone from being patient and understanding of his position to wondering if he'd rather I hadn't come out to him and put him in this position.

So I'm sitting there in the third pew, boiling with unfocused rage (I didn't figure out why I was mad until later) and when he started to talk about how the Table is open to everybody (UMC), I wondered if that's true. If it's open, why do I feel like I've been punched in the gut?

And I made a decision so fast I kind of startled myself. I decided to sit out communion this morning. It was awkward, because I was right in the middle of the pew, so everybody had to do the church pew sidle to get by me. Also, because I was close to the front, so people surely noticed that hey, that guy didn't get up.

I left as they started singing the last hymn and couldn't stifle a sob before I got out the door. I don't want to leave my church, but I can't keep on with things like this. At the very least, communion is out for the time being, because the truth is, locally and internationally, full communion in the UMC isn't open to everybody. My communion, and that of my LGBT* sisters and brothers, is limited to what the bigots will let me do.

So. I have no idea if I made the right decision or not. I feel like crap, and I haven't eaten today, and I have a headache that extends into my shoulders, and I just want to get in bed and stay there.

Dammit.





*Seriously, guys. We have got to come up with a name that isn't so clumsy, and don't say 'queer', cause I'm vetoing that one.

[Steven E. Webster]

I had an "incident" in church today. This Saturday is my one year Out-iversary, which means that my minister has known that I'm gay for 50 weeks. He's been supportive, and he's a great guy, but...

I just couldn't handle it when he wrote yet another on-ramp to talking about the gays into his sermon and drove right past it. The whole thing was about the sanctity of life, and how that doesn't mean abortion but acknowledging the sacredness of every person in every part of their lives, and he gave a few examples and brushed right up against it and then ... nothing. He was done, moving on to communion.

He's just so afraid of upsetting the more conservative people bigots in the church, and I don't want to be his Dirty Little Secret anymore. I've gone from being patient and understanding of his position to wondering if he'd rather I hadn't come out to him and put him in this position.

So I'm sitting there in the third pew, boiling with unfocused rage (I didn't figure out why I was mad until later) and when he started to talk about how the Table is open to everybody (UMC), I wondered if that's true. If it's open, why do I feel like I've been punched in the gut?

And I made a decision so fast I kind of startled myself. I decided to sit out communion this morning. It was awkward, because I was right in the middle of the pew, so everybody had to do the church pew sidle to get by me. Also, because I was close to the front, so people surely noticed that hey, that guy didn't get up.

I left as they started singing the last hymn and couldn't stifle a sob before I got out the door. I don't want to leave my church, but I can't keep on with things like this. At the very least, communion is out for the time being, because the truth is, locally and internationally, full communion in the UMC isn't open to everybody. My communion, and that of my LGBT* sisters and brothers, is limited to what the bigots will let me do.

So. I have no idea if I made the right decision or not. I feel like crap, and I haven't eaten today, and I have a headache that extends into my shoulders, and I just want to get in bed and stay there.

Dammit.

Matt,

I've certainly been there before. Try not attributing the worst motivations to the pastor. Assume the pastor may still be uncomfortable with the LGBT issue himself, despite his openness to a more genuinely liberal attitude & behavior. You may have some conservatives on board, but it's probably not as bad as either your pastor or you may think.

Try not to make it a personal criticism of the pastor, but find some tactful way too say you were disappointed in the sermon, and that you have very strong feelings about the way the church (in general and not just the local church) has excluded LGBT people who want to come to Christ's table.

It takes patience and persistence to relate to a congregation. Has your congregation done any studies of "the issue" with materials from either Reconciling Ministries Network or Soulforce or even the United Methodist denominational resources that were progressive for their time. (I'm remembering correctly that you are United Methodist, Matt?)

Steven Webster

[Zerbie]

Omigosh, Matt! :(:love::love::love:

I'm so sorry to hear that it hit you in that way. What an awful way to feel!

Please, take some food, do something to comfort yourself. Then get good rest.

Can you logically perhaps attribute the best possible motives to your pastor? Maybe this was his way of signaling the very opposite message from the one that got conveyed to you: that he wants all people to feel loved, valued, and included.
Given the degree of malevolence one sometimes hears from our society at large around 'gay issues,' maybe he himself is afraid to 'come out' as an ally. Doing so can be a really big deal for many people.
This sermon today may have been the best and most he is personally ready for TODAY. But tomorrow or next month or next year he might be ready to speak out very clearly and mention the gay community specifically by name. He may have been too timid to specifically mention the gay community, but that might change with time.

Given how strongly this has affected you, I agree you can and probably should say something to him. But wait until the incident is not upsetting you emotionally any more before you do. Then tell him how you felt and why. And why not outright ASK him to speak out as an ally? Sometimes all that is needed is that we ask.

[Matt Algren]

Matt,

I've certainly been there before. Try not attributing the worst motivations to the pastor. Assume the pastor may still be uncomfortable with the LGBT issue himself, despite his openness to a more genuinely liberal attitude & behavior. You may have some conservatives on board, but it's probably not as bad as either your pastor or you may think.

Try not to make it a personal criticism of the pastor, but find some tactful way too say you were disappointed in the sermon, and that you have very strong feelings about the way the church (in general and not just the local church) has excluded LGBT people who want to come to Christ's table.

It takes patience and persistence to relate to a congregation. Has your congregation done any studies of "the issue" with materials from either Reconciling Ministries Network or Soulforce or even the United Methodist denominational resources that were progressive for their time. (I'm remembering correctly that you are United Methodist, Matt?)

Steven Webster
Methodist, yes. I'm trying really hard to put the best possible face on his silence, but for some reason this one is harder, probably because it's so close to the Out-iversary. I wonder if part of it is that I had my hopes up a little higher than usual this time. He was visibly nervous (as in his hands were shaking considerably) when he started his sermon, which is absolutely never the case, and he spent a good 30 seconds telling people that he might offend them. Abortion is a hot button issue, obviously, so that must have been it, but he's spoken on that before and never been this nervous about it.

I just need him to be bigger than this, and I don't know if that's a reasonable thing to demand. I want to stress again that he's truly one of the holiest people I've met, and I don't use that term lightly. But the church has been so far behind the curve so many times, and I want my church to be ahead of it.

I wanted to stand up and shout "I'M REAL! I MATTER! YOU CAN'T MAKE ME INVISIBLE!", but that would have been a bit too drama queen-ish for me.

As for studying 'the issue', no we haven't, and that bugs me a little bit too. We're under orders from our Annual Conference to be doing so, and not only are we not, one of the homophobes is teaching a Sunday School class on Leviticus. I'm going to slip him some materials, but it probably won't do any good.

The next problem I have is whether to say something to the preacher or not. He knows my opinion on the subject; I told him a few months ago that he shouldn't hold back because of fears for my safety (some general statements were apparently made at a bible study). And he was directly in front of me and ten yards (at most) away both when I didn't go up for communion and when I left. We've had open channels about this for the past year, and I've made my feelings and intentions known. I don't know how much more I can push.

Zerbie, I finally ate a little today, but no sleep last night. I'm a zombie. I have a feeling I'm going to crash when I get home.

[Daniel]

Matt- you've mentioned that your church is under orders to study the issue of gay folks and that this isn't happening.

What about figuring out a way to get the issue studied at your church? Can you start the process in some way, even be the sponsor for whatever is necessary? After all, you are member of this church, right? Doesn't that count for something?

I think you could push this as far as you want to. This is something you could take up with the pastor. And this might help in the sense that it would place the emphasis on the issue rather than on his person.

If you are going to be angry, you might as well do something with it.

[Zerbie]

He was visibly nervous (as in his hands were shaking considerably) when he started his sermon, which is absolutely never the case, and he spent a good 30 seconds telling people that he might offend them. Abortion is a hot button issue, obviously, so that must have been it, but he's spoken on that before and never been this nervous about it.


The next problem I have is whether to say something to the preacher or not. He knows my opinion on the subject; I told him a few months ago that he shouldn't hold back because of fears for my safety (some general statements were apparently made at a bible study).

What??
What kind of statements? He has fears for your safety?? Why?
It seems to me that this is a big, big part of the picture.

Matt, I am sure you have a strong friend and ally in this pastor. What I'd want to know were I in your shoes, is just what kind of statements were made that causes him to fear for your safety? I think that is the larger issue, and your pastor may be treading lightly in order to avoid vicious cowards from directing negativity at YOU in response to what HE says.

But the most important thing right now is to eat nutritious foods in good amounts, and make sure you relax and rest tonight. You'll feel much better (or at least much more capable of dealing with this) once you've eaten well and slept well.

[Daniel]

What??
What kind of statements? He has fears for your safety?? Why?
It seems to me that this is a big, big part of the picture.

I'm sure I don't know s**t about this, but I wonder if this is a case of bullies. And bullies usually back down when confronted. If one buys into their crap, they win. They mean to dominate through fear. Best not to let them do that.

A questions comes to mind: what's the worst that could happen?

Knowing that and having a plan to deal with it might put the matter into perspective.

[Juls]

This is for Matt:
I can just see your face sitting there in church. That must have taken a lot of guts to not partake of Communion. When ever I haven't felt truly 'invited' to partake I have ignored the feeling and prayed then participated anyway. That may have been wrong on my part. To take a stand like that knowing that so many were watching and wondered why is something that I know you must not have taken likely. But rather think "who cares what they think" maybe an opportunity will arise from this to open a dialog about this. An opportunity to tell your pastor how you feel.

[Matt Algren]

What??
What kind of statements? He has fears for your safety?? Why?
It seems to me that this is a big, big part of the picture.

Matt, I am sure you have a strong friend and ally in this pastor. What I'd want to know were I in your shoes, is just what kind of statements were made that causes him to fear for your safety? I think that is the larger issue, and your pastor may be treading lightly in order to avoid vicious cowards from directing negativity at YOU in response to what HE says.

But the most important thing right now is to eat nutritious foods in good amounts, and make sure you relax and rest tonight. You'll feel much better (or at least much more capable of dealing with this) once you've eaten well and slept well.
Do Rice Krispies Treats and Pepsi for breakfast count? Please?
I'm sure I don't know s**t about this, but I wonder if this is a case of bullies. And bullies usually back down when confronted. If one buys into their crap, they win. They mean to dominate through fear. Best not to let them do that.

A questions comes to mind: what's the worst that could happen?

Knowing that and having a plan to deal with it might put the matter into perspective.
I'm pretty sure Daniel's right, and it's just a bully throwing words around. They won't tell me exactly what was said, so I'm betting that he/they invoked the 'shall be put to death' business.

And I take Daniel's position here. What are they going to do? One day after the tenth anniversary of Matthew Shepherd being attacked is probably the wrong day to say that, but I know the guy who was apparently doing the talking (who has since noticed that I'm one of the gays), and he's a blusterer.

If he blusters? That gives me an opening. If he attacks physically? Even better. I'd rather have the overt bullshit than the quiet kind.

The day after I found out about that (a friend who was also there let it slip and was almost physically ill over it*), I emailed him a go-ahead and told him that if something happens, I'd rather it be me than some kid who's just figuring out that he's gay. I'd rather it happen now than let it fester another couple years while the gay folks who sit in the pew silently. We've got a few of both, though I wouldn't out them on my own.

I don't know. I'm just tired of waiting. Maybe I'm reading intentions into his sermons, but he's preached on the subject of inclusion and acceptance (both God's and man's) over and over, but he never addresses the gays outright. Frustrating.

Meantime, and I'm going to give this its own thread in a minute, but I read last night (and blogged about this morning) Father Geoffrey Farrow's sermon (http://blog.mattalgren.com/2008/10/father-geoffrey-farrow-a-voice-in-the-wilderness/) on Sunday. What a brave man.

(Maybe I'll send his homily to my minister. Hmmm....)





* He's also the one I was most worried about punching me when I came out. I love it when people surprise me.

[tdogg]

Hope you are feeling better. I don't think Pepsi for breakfast was exactly what Zerbie was talking about, but hey, in this instance if it makes you feel better, maybe it's ok?? ;)

A lot of times people who may support us in secret are afraid to show public support. They are afraid of what others will think of them, if they will be respected or ridiculed. If they will be even welcome in their own environments. Your incident tell me that maybe some people in the church wouldn't respect your pastor, but ridicule and judge him. An experience that sometimes results in that person deciding to go public with their support. Sometimes, time and patience and maybe even some prayers can result in positives down the road.

If you feel you can talk to your pastor, it may help. Maybe a lot. If not, then find those who will support you and talk to them. Be yourself and be present. Be out and proud. You never know who is getting support from you, just by you being there.

I'm pretty much out and proud, so when I started working at my current job (almost 4 years ago), I was the only 'out' person I knew there. Not too terribly much longer another person - a sister - came out. I like to think maybe she felt more comfortable (safety in numbers and all) having someone else take the first plunge. Maybe she wasn't entirely in the closet, but she is definitely not in the closet now!

[Matt Algren]

Sent an email to him a few minutes ago. Hopefully we'll be meeting to discuss things later this week.

[Pablo Rafael]

Matt,

Sorry I am so late in responding to this thread. I have not been keeping up with things here at the forums lately.

I have seen this same sort of thing in the Lutheran church where I worked. People were supportive of me and so many people said that they thought that the LCMS really should change its stand on gays in the church. But in public everyone avoided the issue because they didn't want to face any opposition or go against the official stand of the LCMS. At school they said that I "left for personal reasons". There seems to be a big difference between being privately supportive of LGBT* rights and being publically supportive.

You have an advantage of being in a denomention that is more affirming than is the LCMS. But I don't know a lot about the Methodist church I will admit.

I don't think it does any harm to let people know you are upset. And if people get upset, let them. I also think most violently anti-gay people are a lot of talk and not much substance. I am totally convinced the best way to stand against a homophobic person is simply to be kind and loving. It has the advantage of making him look (and hopefully feel) like a jerk.

I am involved in two churches. The little Episcopal church up here near my mountain cabin where I now live is totally affirming toward gays. It is great to walk into the place and know that I am officially accepted and my presence is desired. The Catholic church where I am musician is 75 miles away. I am usually there twice a month. There I face the problem of being in an officially non-affirming denomination. I have never heard any anti-gay sentiments in the seven years I have gone there. I have not been made to feel unwelcome. However, I have decided if the priest decides to preach against homosexuality, I will just leave. It will be fairly noticible because the musicians are up at the front of the church. I will have to unplug my guitar from the amp, pick up the guitar, wind up the cord and walk out the side door. It would be during the sermon so that would make it particularly obvious.

Gene Robinson made a great point in his book In the Eye of the Storm. He said that when he first entered adulthood most people could honestly say they had never met a gay person (that they knew of). Now there is practically no one who doesn't have an openly gay friend or relative. The same in the churches. The option used to be that gays just had to leave. But then there are those of us who have been to stubborn to leave. Now the church is forced to deal with us. Now people are having to get used to gays in their midst. (And hopefull realize that we aren't that bad at all.) :good:

You are making a change just by being honest and being present. We are at the point with gay rights in the church where the civil rights movement was in the 1960's.

Tu Amigo,
Pablo

* I agree. This is an clunky term. We need something with more style.