Turn of Events....

[tymejumper]

Well, here is some interesting news from the backwards state of Michigan. In Grand Rapids,(my stomping grounds) there are currently 4 gay bars. One is for the younger crowd, one is a guy hangout, although everyone is welcome, one is a dance club(my hangout) and the other one is a general pub that serves food. The dance club and the general pub are on the same main road, with a formally empty building in between it.

Last month, a little italian resturant opened its doors there. They have bouncers that are outside, so there has been no trouble, especially on weekends.

There are ladies nights at the dance club and Ellie and I have noticed that there are a TON of straight and heterosexual couples that now come there. They apparently have dinner at the resturant and then go to the gay bar to dance. No one really seems upset that there are many gay couples that go there and kiss, dance etc. Also, I have walked outside the bar and held hands with my wife, as have many other couples done. We have gotten a surprised look or two, but no one seems that they are offended.

I think this is a good thing, integration of a type and also diversity training. The only thing I have an issue with is all the straight people at the bar, they can go anywhere and be together and because I am gay, I can't go to a straight bar without hassle.

Comments please

[BruceChris]

Madison, Wisc. All of the good dance floors were in the gay bars, and on weekends, straight people would take over the dance floors, and you had to have well tuned gaydar, in the dim light, to tell which was which.

And Soglin, or Soggy, as we called the mayor back then, had been seen in the Cardinal. Madison was, and still is, a very liberal place. (And I was younger, then.........

And the home of A Room Of One's Own, one of the oldest and proudest feminist bookstores in the country:

http://www.roomofonesown.com/NASApp/store/IndexJsp

Homophobia just isn't all that popular in Madison. Rebekah, try it out sometime.

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[Alecto]

;;sigh:: just lost a long-winded response; will try to keep this one shorter.

I do see both sides, but I tend to lean more towards finding it problematic than I do as seeing it as progress. Part of the reason the "Rules for straights in gay bars" part of the Queer Nation Manifesto doesn't offend me is that it ends with an alternative: if you don't like it, go back to your bars and do everything you can to work to make sure that they would be safe for us there. Integration means that everyone is welcome everywhere, not that those with more social power can crash our parties, but we're still in danger if we're seen with an SO at a straight bar (and nevermind actually hitting on someone you have't met before).

I think part of the reason I feel this way is that I've seen it happen to a club in Buffalo, and it's now more "straight" than "gay", and is no longer necessarily safe space. I don't know if it's a local thing (I don't think it is) but the "Mens" and "Womens" on bathrooms in gay bars, if they're even present, don't really mean much here. For the first time EVER I had some woman flip out at me for using the mirror in the women's room (the men's room was full and busy), and it just felt to me like these people coming into our space and changing the rules and making it their own despite that they've got a million other places to go not two blocks away, and we really don't (especially not to dance).

[Zerbie]

Alecto,

This may be because much of what you first typed vanished before it got posted. But I need a context for what you're talking about with "rules for straights", etc. I've never heard of this. What's it from? Where can I read this list of rules?

As for the rest of what you've posted, I find it odd that people would want to hang out at a gay bar but then try to change it to fit a different set of expectations. That doesn't sound like joining in, being friends, enjoying the atmosphere - it sounds more like a hostile takeover. Is this sort of thing common?

[Alecto]

Sorry, that was supposed to be a proper noun (google-able) ::fixes:: The rules are here:

RULES OF CONDUCT FOR STRAIGHT PEOPLE

1. Keep your display of affection (kissing,
handholding, embracing) to a minimum. Your sexuality is
unwanted and offensive to many here.
2. If you must slow dance, be as inconspicuous as possible.
3. Do not gawk or stare at lesbians or gay men, especially bull dykes or drag
queens. We are not your entertainment.
4. If you cannot comfortably deal with someone of the same sex making a pass
at you, get out.
5. Do not flaunt your heterosexuality. Be Discreet. Risk being mistaken for a lezzie or a homo.
6. If you feel these rules are unfair, go fight homophobia in
straight clubs, or:
7. Go Fuck Yourself.

I'm not here to advocate for or defend the document (http://www.qrd.org/qrd/misc/text/queers.read.this) in it's entirety, but I am kind of ok with these specifically. I feel that if you want to hang out in our bars, you should identify as an ally (which is very different from just "someone with gay friends"). And an ally is not so defensive as to be constantly reasserting their heterosexuality, which is what a lot of this behavior tends to come across as.

I'm only familiar with what happened to the one club in Buffalo, and what happened to an (oddly) similar club in Rochester, but...in two different cities, it went down exactly the same way; I'd believe that it's common.

[tymejumper]

For the first time EVER I had some woman flip out at me for using the mirror in the women's room (the men's room was full and busy), and it just felt to me like these people coming into our space and changing the rules and making it their own despite that they've got a million other places to go not two blocks away, and we really don't (especially not to dance).


I enjoy the fact that I don't have to feel like I tresspassed if I have to go into the mens bathroom. I had my bra strap break once on the dance floor and a shear top on, so I had to get to the bathroom quick! The ladies room had a hugh line out of the door so I stuck my head into the guys room and shouted "any straight guys in here?" and was answered "no, we're all as queer as a two dollar bill, come on in sister". And so, I got my brastrap fixed quickly and was no worse for the wear. I even had an offer from a Queen to help. You can't do that in a staight bar and the straight girls get upset if a TG person or really Butch woman comes into the girls bathroom at the gay bar. We have a large TG/MTF crowd that comes into the bar on ladies night and also Sunday, they use the womens room and no one has an issue with it. It's really not their fault that they got trapped in the wrong body!

[tymejumper]

This may be because much of what you first typed vanished before it got posted. But I need a context for what you're talking about with "rules for straights", etc. I've never heard of this. What's it from? Where can I read this list of rules?

As for the rest of what you've posted, I find it odd that people would want to hang out at a gay bar but then try to change it to fit a different set of expectations. That doesn't sound like joining in, being friends, enjoying the atmosphere - it sounds more like a hostile takeover. Is this sort of thing common?


[COLOR="Navy"]I don't think that people try to change the general workings of the gay bar, but they have a habit of bringing their code of conduct with them. Like the Mens and Womens bathroom thingy. In the straight world and bar its guys with guys and girls with girls. They don't always understand we are more fluid and have so many other shades to us, more than male or female.

I also think that their being uncomfortable makes us uncomfortable. It is a safe space where I am accepted. If they come and stare or get angry if you make a pass, it's like we were again made to feel that we are no longer safe there, just like in the outer straight world, like we are a freak. That is the reason we come, to fit in, to be a community, have support for who we are and whom we love.

I like to think a lot of people come for the music, but they are supportive also to some degree. Why make themselves uncomfortable if they don't have to? I think that there are people that come into the gay bar and they are uncomfortable because they make it a point to hang on their SO of the oposite sex. I think they either want to try to show support and become uncomfortable unexpectedly, or they have gay friends or family and are trying to become comfortable with it.

I do know that I am uncomfortable with telling straight couples that they don't belong. Or couples that appear straight. (One could be Bi or TG and they appear straight). Ellie and I went to a Halloween party where there was a straight couple entering into the costume contest. The girl had seen me struggling in the bathroom with my costume top and helped me tie it tighter so it wouldn't come off. Well, the DJ was mocking them because they were a straight couple. He was telling them to go to the straight bar and that they were not welcome, and others were laughing and agreeing. We got so mad we left. I wanted to appoligize to them, I was ashamed, they didn't deserve that kind of treatment.

[Alecto]

Odd as it is, I am against any policing of those rules. I like the idea of them, I like the idea of posting them even, but policing is problematic at best for the reasons you've pointed out. I'm against singling out or demeaning bisexuals in relationships or transfolk.

I have seen drag queens / MCs / Djs single out bisexuals, and it pissed me off a lot. But I do see something problematic about people from outside of the community coming in (with friends, or in a grossly Othering attempt to "see what it's all about" or even, as the manifesto says, because we have good music / know how to party) and imposing their standards and norms onto a place. I don't suppose I have a solution, as such, but I do want to emphasize that it is a problem.

I also want to say that I support anyone's efforts to become more comfortable with new ideas, but that invading safe space might not be the best way to do that. The concept of "safe space" for me is very ... "loaded" and kind of complex, but at its most simple, I don't think that if someone is a true ally that their education should come at the expense of any queer person's comfort. If they can't handle not staring down the couples dancing with looks of shock on their face, then, yeah ok good for them for trying, but maybe they're not ready to be in that space.

[Zerbie]

I had a really thoughtful reply all written, but the computer froze for a while and then told me this server was not available.

What I had said was that most of the 'rules' made sense to me, with huge exceptions to the one about f**king off, and also a problem with #1. Assuming we're not talking about some kind of heavy petting that no one wants to see, regardless of who's involved. #1 just strikes me as nothing more than a role reversal of the same garbage that is heaped on gay folk. Garbage is garbage no matter who is the recipient.

I very strongly agree with #s 4, 5, and 6.

Since my vanishing post was originally conceived much earlier today, the conversation has gotten onto the subject of biphobia. Oh man, do I have issues with THAT shit. I can't tell you how many times I have worked hours and hours, practically killing myself over some equality issue or other, only to be rewarded by straight homophobes calling me names and screaming at me, and to have gay folk view me as a stranger. At least, in recent years I have been welcomed into the community with open arms and no issues, but they almost always assume I'm straight (an assumption I find very ironic coming from the lgBt community.)
IF I were to hear offenses like what Tyme referred to coming from others in MY community about bisexuals, they would be hearing about it in no uncertain terms. It's no fun being thrown out of home for being 'gay' and then thrown out of the gay community for being 'straight.' But this is the crap that sometimes happens.

[Alecto]

In fairness, that last one was an "or" if ya don't like the other ones. And I view pretty much all the other ones (including my reading, anyway, of the first one) as re-hashing out number 5. It doesn't say "NO pda", but to keep it to a minimum. If I see an opposite-sex couple constantly touching each other in a gay bar, it does come across, again, as a giant neon sign: "Yup, I'm here, but I'm not gay and I don't want to be mistaken for gay because nothing's worse than people thinking you're gay!". And that is both unwanted and offensive.

[Zerbie]

Alecto: I think we agree and are talking about normal boundaries, and about being reasonably sensitive to one's environment.

My problem with #1 is with the language about affection being unwanted and offensive. I find that attitude offensive, no matter who it comes from.

[ctozrn]

I personally don't want to see pda from anyone really these days.....gosh, I am getting so old! I don't want to see it from gay, straight, bi, or anyone else! I don't mind some on the dance floor or in the club but when it gets too heated it is time to go home!

Zerbie, it is funny how you said that most people assume you are straight when you are in fact bi. I am a very femme girl. When I go to a gay event or bar without my partner, I am treated much the same way. I get the looks as though I am an outsider. When I am with my gf who is butch, I am looked at very differently...suddenly I belong! It is a strange thing.....Then I have all the straight men who automatically think I am straight...EVERYWHERE I go! That is a whole 'nother story!

Christine

[Alecto]

Alecto: I think we agree and are talking about normal boundaries, and about being reasonably sensitive to one's environment.

My problem with #1 is with the language about affection being unwanted and offensive. I find that attitude offensive, no matter who it comes from.

Heh. They weren't exactly known for their tact with regard to language choice, but I think there's some value in there. :)

[tymejumper]

Zerbie, it is funny how you said that most people assume you are straight when you are in fact bi. I am a very femme girl. When I go to a gay event or bar without my partner, I am treated much the same way. I get the looks as though I am an outsider. When I am with my gf who is butch, I am looked at very differently...suddenly I belong! It is a strange thing.....Then I have all the straight men who automatically think I am straight...EVERYWHERE I go! That is a whole 'nother story!


I had to laugh after I read your reply. I run into that all the time! I am also very femme, my wife is a butch. I also get ignored at times in the community(not at my usual hangouts)for being a 'stealth lesbian'. Usually it's the gay guys that can pick me up, but other lesbans do not always do so. I have had some tell me to leave for a straight bar! They don't believe I am a lesbian, I really wish I had a card or something to prove it. I ALWAYS have the ONE straight guy in the whole gay bar hit on me. When I say that I am not interested, I'm with my wife, they tell me that I must be lying or looked so shocked that it's hilarious.

[Zerbie]

Geez! Ladies, I feel so much less alone!! :lol:
I'm sorry this stupidity happens to you. But at least I know it isn't just me now. Refusing to believe you're lesbian? Good grief! That's stupid.

When I realized I was in fact bi, it was stuff like what you two ladies have just described that showed me the odds were I'd end up with a man. The numerical odds, I mean.
I just wasn't meeting many women. It was the rare woman who would pick up on me (and when it would happen, I felt like I was jumping over the moon :p.) But gay men didn't pick up on me, either. If I saw gay gusy and had the reaction, "Oh, here's 'family,'" those men would distance themselves and I could almost hear them thinking "Why is this straight chick smiling at us -- doesn't she get that we're a couple? God, how stupid straight people are." And I'm like, "No - no! We're "family," get it?? Ummm, nope.
Almost everyone gets a 'straight' vibe from me.

Oddly, my husband was one of about 3 people I've never had to come out to; he knew I was bi within days of meeting me without me ever saying a word about it. I appreciated that he really knew who I was. And fell madly in love with me, too! :weee::weee::D

[tymejumper]

I post on other sites, like Butch-Femme.com and they actually have several forums about Femme and Bi visibility. It really is a pretty rampant issue. I guess gay men who are more traditionally male(no offense intended) and into the sports and such have the same problems. They probably get told to leave the gay bar because they are thought to be straight!

I actually was chatting to a gay male friend one day and a butch lesbian came over to me and said rather nastily "you can always tell the straight girls in the gay bar, they spend their time talking to the guys". I just looked at her and said "or they are Bi, and are just upping their odds of a date" she looked really mad but backed off. :lol::lol::lol::lol:

One of my wifes friends didn't think I was gay enough and just playing games with Ellie. I had been married to a man and therefore I guess I could not be trusted. I think she thought that since I was not registering as a 'real' lesbian with her,(whatever that is) I would change my mind and go back to men.

Did you know that many lesbians consider a woman who has EVER been with a man even once to be Bi?

[Alecto]

There's a really bizarre spin on it in the world of gay men. For lots of folks "straight-acting" (the phrase makes me cringe) is actually more desire-able. It's like, there's all these different groups, and each group thinks they're the best queers. The leather-daddies (an anti-stereotype) are ashamed of the nelly queens who are "more queer" than the "straight-acting" who aren't "bad for the community" like everyone else and no one wants to hang out with bisexuals or transfolk. I've seen this going on forever and I don't know how to "fix" it, but it's definitely out there.

[ctozrn]

It is so funny that you both have been through exactly what I go through all the time! Zerbie, I have gotten the dirtiest looks from gay men when I tried to "bond" with them in public over our being family. They look at me the same way as you, "why is this straight girl being so nice to us..." I go out with my gf and the gay men just love us!

Don't even mention those lesbians that think that the only "real" lesbians are those that have NEVER been with a man. I hear this so often and it makes me sick! I have been out for almost 10 years, I have nothing to prove to anyone. I too have posted on other lesbian sites and have heard the proclamations that "I am a TRUE lesbian since I have never been with a man!" I think that we as LGBT have enough to deal with outside of our community. We don't need to turn on each other!

Christine

[BrianB]

I have to say "me too" as a bi' man. Unless I go in to a gay club with a friend that is obviously gay people assume I'm straight. It makes me so happy when a man asks me to dance. Otherwise, I'm nursing a drink all night. Most people seem to be paired off or waiting on someone.

[Zerbie]

I think we're proving my hypothesis that the famous Woody Allen quip has it precisely backwards.

We have half as much chance of finding a date as one of you lucky folk who are either gay OR straight. :mad:

Thank God for sending me such a wonderful DH! I didn't even realize until after I was married what horribly pessimistic statistics there were, indicating that I might have had basically NO reasonable chance of ever finding a partner. :eek:

But somehow, I got the most fantastic one out there. . . what a miracle!! :love::love::love::love:

[tymejumper]

Zerbie, I know everyone teases and jokes that Bis have more to chose from, but in truth, there is so much Biphobia that they are lucky to EVER get a date!