The Fall Gathering on Short Mountain

[scott snedeker]

Once again The Radical Faeries are gathering on Short mountain for Communion, Reunion and the unfettered Sharing of love of the heart. With this sharing of heart, spirit and body comes the natural healing joy, permitted to enter with the evapoartion of boundaries of my heart.

From where I began before my first gathering, I have opened myself to my Pan, my Buddha, and even let go of much of my fear of Christ.

I have begun yet another spiritual study of the concept of subject-SUBJECT consciousness as introduced by Harry hay, Founder of the Radical Faerie movement.

Subject-SUBJECT consciousness, a concept proposed by Harry Hay believed by Hay to be queer people's unique perspective on the world. Hay saw heterosexual society existing in a subject-object dynamic; where men, who had the culturally acceptable power, saw only themselves as subject and therefore higher than women, who were treated as objects and property. Hay extrapolated this interpersonal-sexual dynamic (male-power:female-subordinate) into a broader social context, believing that the subject-object relationship was the driving force behind most all of societies ills. Objectification served as a barrier, emotionally separating an individual (subject) from another individual by dehumanizing them, making them object.

When Hay looked at homosexual relationships, however, he saw a different dynamic at work. He believed that homosexual relationships were based on mutual respect and empathy for the other, a longing for a companion who was as equally valuable as the self. Hay termed this interpersonal-sexual dynamic subject-SUBJECT (which Hay capitalized for emphasis in all of his writings). He believed that this subject-SUBJECT way of viewing the world was queer people's most valuable contribution to the greater society. By empathizing with all people, relating to each other as equal to equal, society would change drastically and social injustices would be eradicated


The context of Harry hay's subject-SUBJECT consciousness reflects the continued need for change in a crumbling yet persistent bastion of white heterosexual male privilege. But unlike other political movements his strategy was to grow another separate society next to it.

He did not seem to promote oppostion or intergration, but instead attraction to those whose interest was keen and cultivation without regard to the opinions of those who were fearful and phobic. By this effort springs creation of separate sanctuaries and faerie space that are spiritually sacred to the precious radically queer heart of many of us.

I bring this little reminder to the forum here for the purpose of illumination:

That not all gays and organizations have integration and equality as their goal. That the purpose of some is to create separation.....and that this too is an essential element of the whole.
PS.

If you would like to attend the fall gathering I will PM. you the information. The Sanctuarians strongly oppose publishing dates, directions or details.

[Zerbie]

Congratulations on your continued journey.

Funny, I've been letting go some of my horror of christians too, lately. Dear God, I'm even going to a church nowadays!!

[Gregory_de_Bois]

Congratulations on your continued journey.

Funny, I've been letting go some of my horror of christians too, lately. Dear God, I'm even going to a church nowadays!!

Not all Christians bite.:D (although those smiley-teeth might say otherwise...)

I have noticed myself becoming more orthodox, in the historic/apostolic/inclusive sense. I believe more strongly in the Divinity of Christ and other doctrines, but I stop here lest I hijack this thread.

The subject-SUBJECT relationship makes so much sense, to me as a gay individual and a human being. I see it so much in how I see the world.

[Alecto]

I love the idea of subject-SUBJECT. Like...I've thought about that before, but had only cumbersome words with which to talk about it. It's like because we've had to question society once, we're more willing / able to question it about other things. And because we can't fall back on assumptions about roles as they relate to gender, we have the freedom to renegotiate all of those roles. I always liked the idea that we had more potential for more equal relationships (however frequently it may or may not pan out that way).

[BruceChris]

From what I can see, a Subject-Subject relationship is very much like what Martin Buber called the I-Thou relationship, in his seminal book I And Thou.

"It is possible, notes Buber, to place ourselves completely into a relationship, to truly understand and "be there" with another person, without masks, pretenses, even without words. Such a moment of relating is called "I-Thou." Each person comes to such a relationship without preconditions. The bond thus created enlarges each person, and each person responds by trying to enhance the other person. The result is true dialogue, true sharing."

Source, http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Buber.html

Also, If I value and respect myself, as well as yourself, I would use a Subject-Subject construction.

Addressed by wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_and_Thou

Buber uses two pairs of words to describe two fundamentally different types of relationship: "I-Thou" and "I-It." Here, I and Thou are Subjects, while It refers to things that we see, and use, as objects.

Scott: If I'm not stepping on your toes too much, I would ask that you check out these sources, and see how their concepts fit with yours.

Also, as someone largely heterosexual, and as a feminist/humanist, I do hold it as an ideal to approach all people with the assumed possibility of an I-Thou relationship. I would have to say that this should be the starting point for a thoughtful Christian. And I know that in many cases, especially Re certain politicians in power, I fall far short.

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[Alecto]

I totally came across that in a textbook today, Bruce, and was all excited to compare notes and timelines. Far as I can tell, it's the same concept with possibly a slightly different focus and I'd argue definitely a different worldview behind it. :)

[BruceChris]

I do believe that it is possible for people of any gender combinations to preceive the other as Person, just as I can preceive myself that way, at least on one of my better days. (Ex: With a good night's sleep, some exercize, and before I find myself on the down side of the day.)

And I do believe that heterosexuals can be just as capable of this as gays.

Oh yeah, gays objectify people, too. Insensitive hetros, if no one else.

P&L, BC

[scott snedeker]

From what I can see, a Subject-Subject relationship is very much like what Martin Buber called the I-Thou relationship, in his seminal book I And Thou.
Scott: If I'm not stepping on your toes too much, I would ask that you check out these sources, and see how their concepts fit with yours.

Also, as someone largely heterosexual, and as a feminist/humanist, I do hold it as an ideal to approach all people with the assumed possibility of an I-Thou relationship. I would have to say that this should be the starting point for a thoughtful Christian. And I know that in many cases, especially Re certain politicians in power, I fall far short.

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

Wow! What a Zeitgeist! What a meeting these two could have had! I will have to read this further! Tanks!

[scott snedeker]

From the "I and Thou" wikipedia link:

"Love is a subject-to-subject relationship. Like the I-Thou relation, love is not a relation of subject to object, but rather a relation in which both members in the relationship are subjects and share the unity of being. The ultimate Thou is God. In the I-Thou relation there are no barriers, and this means that man can relate directly to God. God is ever-present in human consciousness, and manifests himself in music, literature, and other forms of culture. As previously mentioned, Thou is inevitably addressed as It. Because of this, the I-Thou relation becomes the being of the I-Thou relation. God is now spoken to directly not spoken about.

God is the worldwide relation to all relations. There is no world that disconnects man from God. What this is a world of It alone. The individual’s action is guided by I-Thou. "One who truly meets the world goes out also to God."

Coincidentally, Buber's I and Thou (Ich und Du) was published in the same year as Sigmund Freuds The Ego and the Id (Das Ich und das Es lit. "The I and the It").


Will and Grace
The 1998-2006 U.S. TV sitcom Will & Grace takes its name from this particular work. Writer and literary graduate David Kohan recalled that Buber stated that in order to achieve the perfect relationship one must have "the will to go after it and the grace to receive it." He decided that if he wrote a love story one day, he would use these names because they made up the two parts of a whole relationship."

The area highlighted in red strongly parallels the Druidic Pagan practices including Sex Magick. The ritualized sexual union creates an intense connection to the Creator [God]. Our repesentation commonly manifests as Cernunos or Pan.

Pagan Sex Magick strengthens the affirmation that desire for the same sex and the joy of sharing is holy. This intensely spiritually and psychologically heals the trauma experienced during the sexually formative adolescent period. By taking an active role the individual takes direct responsibility for owning his entitlement to living as a sexual being.

Because this trauma was commonly at the hands of Abrahamic spiritual homophobia, I don't believe Abrahamic faiths can accomplish quite the same healing. I believe this is why so many of us have returned to our pagan origin for spiritual healing and growth.

Suffice it to say, Gyver, Sapphire and I are counting the hours. It seems the contrast of promise of healing two weeks hence makes our old wounds much more sensitive with each day!

[Alecto]

I do believe that it is possible for people of any gender combinations to preceive the other as Person, just as I can preceive myself that way, at least on one of my better days. (Ex: With a good night's sleep, some exercize, and before I find myself on the down side of the day.)

And I do believe that heterosexuals can be just as capable of this as gays.

Oh yeah, gays objectify people, too. Insensitive hetros, if no one else.

P&L, BC
Bruce; I don't meant to imply that our relationships are always "better", or that straight folks just can't get it. But I like to think that a reversion to assumed gender roles is one less obstacle that we have to overcome (when we've got enough other obstacles that straight folks don't anyway).

[Gennee]

This is an interesting post. Subject-Subject relatinship is a great analogy about society in general. It's strange but right away I thought about ancient and how the men were owners and movers while women were merely property. Sadly, this ideal is still with us.

When a social construct is developed, I wonder what is the purpose for it and the motives behind it. The gender binary system is a good example. As a transgender I have seen many expressions of gender. The construct has done harm in that everybody does NOT fit into the strict mold society says we should be.

Gennee

[Zerbie]

Not all Christians bite.:D (although those smiley-teeth might say otherwise...)

.

I wasn't worried they might hurt me.
I was afraid if I went to church, I might become a horrible person.

[BruceChris]

But this does bring to mind the real sin of Sodom. Inhospitality. Failure to reach out to the stranger, make him/her welcome, and provide food and shelter.

This sin is the essence of the sort of thing that narrowly focused Christians often do. They have the One True Religion, and if you are not exactly like them, they may not welcome you, and if you are accepting of the GLBT crowed, they will almost certainly judge you. They may see this as very righteous, or being in defense of the Faith, narrowly defined, but it is very un-Subject-Subject behavior.

And this is the message of the United Church of Christ, in their TV ads saying that all are welcome here.

When asked, "Who is my brother", Jesus replied with the parable of the Good Samaritan.

I think that I may have hijacked the thread somewhat, or at least diverted it, but this does seem like the perfect place to insert these comments. So, Scott, let me wish that you have a great time with your Radical Faeries, and practice lots of I-Thou, or subject-Subject behavior.

Peace, Love, and lots of shared empathy, Bruce Chris

[scott snedeker]

But this does bring to mind the real sin of Sodom. Inhospitality. Failure to reach out to the stranger, make him/her welcome, and provide food and shelter.

This sin is the essence of the sort of thing that narrowly focused Christians often do. They have the One True Religion, and if you are not exactly like them, they may not welcome you, and if you are accepting of the GLBT crowed, they will almost certainly judge you. They may see this as very righteous, or being in defense of the Faith, narrowly defined, but it is very un-Subject-Subject behavior.

And this is the message of the United Church of Christ, in their TV ads saying that all are welcome here.

When asked, "Who is my brother", Jesus replied with the parable of the Good Samaritan.

I think that I may have hijacked the thread somewhat, or at least diverted it, but this does seem like the perfect place to insert these comments. So, Scott, let me wish that you have a great time with your Radical Faeries, and practice lots of I-Thou, or subject-Subject behavior.

Peace, Love, and lots of shared empathy, Bruce Chris

If this is hijacking then we need lots more hijacking!:lol:

I like the United Church of Christ's message! I feel completely disarmed, which is uncommon for me to feel toward christian churches. Sounds like a winner!

Thanks for hijacking!:love:

[Zerbie]

If this is hijacking then we need lots more hijacking!:lol:

I like the United Church of Christ's message! I feel completely disarmed, which is uncommon for me to feel toward christian churches. Sounds like a winner!

Thanks for hijacking!:love:

I think you'd like the one I found in Phoenix. I still can't figure out what "kind" of church it is. When I tell people I go to a church now, they all ask what kind it is. And I'm like, errr, a NICE church. :p

Anyway. If yer ever in Phoenix and want to give them a visit, PM me and I'll give you their name and address.

Oh and, Chris -- thanks. :):)
:love:

[labguy22]

The context of Harry hay's subject-SUBJECT consciousness reflects the continued need for change in a crumbling yet persistent bastion of white heterosexual male privilege. But unlike other political movements his strategy was to grow another separate society next to it.

He did not seem to promote oppostion or intergration, but instead attraction to those whose interest was keen and cultivation without regard to the opinions of those who were fearful and phobic. By this effort springs creation of separate sanctuaries and faerie space that are spiritually sacred to the precious radically queer heart of many of us.

I bring this little reminder to the forum here for the purpose of illumination:

That not all gays and organizations have integration and equality as their goal. That the purpose of some is to create separation.....and that this too is an essential element of the whole.


Scotty, ever since the Nov 4th votes that went down, this post has been popping back into my mind. I have to wonder if it is time to choose separation from a group that I don't especially want to be part of.

[scott snedeker]

I am reminded of my reading of Fredrick Douglas' My Bondage and my Freedom in which he develops an awareness of how the institution of slavery degrades all but victimizes the heart of the salvers the most. That by suffering at the hands of slavers, the slaves at least can grow compassion from their pain.

His solution was to finally leave the United States for France and eventually Haiti, Where in the 19th century Africans were not counted as lesser beings to europeans.

Creation of separate sanctuaries are an essential component of survival for many gay folk as are public nonviolent displays and resistance. Sanctuaries focus on What is miraculous about being different than the majority. In appreciating this beauty we can by contrast see the smallness and insignificance of heartless oppression by nihilistic religious hate groups such as FOF or LDS.

By involving myself in a separate creation I realize that I spend too much attention and energy on their smallness and heartlessness when instead I could be creating beauty by giving fellow faeries and other gay folk. Creation in its way is much more powerful than oppostion because the energy is efficiently used positively and can achieve wonderful healing and development of compassion within that is expressed outwardly.

Dashing my energy against resistance and oppostion has a futile feeling with no growth of compassion. Im not saying that opposition is wrong or inferior but that it is very costly. Some gay folks have the fire in them and find this the best direction of their energy and I am thankful for them! Believe me!

[Zerbie]

Brilliant!

Yes, it's exhausting to always speak out AGAINST something.

I try to balance that by cutting the threads that attach me to opposition and re-directing all my attention onto creative and positive things. It's a lot easier to do something than to not-do or un-do something. Besides, this is where the real solution is.

My vote is to keep your focus on beauty, keep your focus on love, on health, on kindness.

[Daniel]

[SIZE="2"]The context of Harry hay's subject-SUBJECT consciousness reflects the continued need for change in a crumbling yet persistent bastion of white heterosexual male privilege. But unlike other political movements his strategy was to grow another separate society next to it.

He (Hay) did not seem to promote oppostion or intergration, but instead attraction to those whose interest was keen and cultivation without regard to the opinions of those who were fearful and phobic. By this effort springs creation of separate sanctuaries and faerie space that are spiritually sacred to the precious radically queer heart of many of us.

Makes sense when you think about it, that is, Hay's perspective was a product of the time that he lived in, that is, gay rights were few and far between, so there would be a natural desire to affirm the best of what could be gotten within the available context. One wonders how he would feel today about the latest happenings.

That said, I strongly believe that gay people need 'gay space'. I went on a yoga retreat with gay men this past year, and it was wonderful, amazing and transformative. It's the kind of experience and connection that one doesn't find in everyday life. As such, there is a need for places and organizations which foster such 'meetings' of the mind and heart.

I don't know if we have to have a separate society in terms of law, but I do see the need for 'society' in terms of culture, which is something that is - historically speaking- is passed down from generation to generation. And I wonder how much of that wisdom has been lost with the terrible decade of AIDS. A whole generation that would be entering the sage years was cut down.

You write of beauty Scotty, it's creation and furtherance. My own sense is that it's existence can only truly flourish when the society that it takes place in makes space for it as well. And the struggle for the latter is what seems to be taking place right now.

We need sanctuary. But we also need the right to sanctuary, whether it is the mountain top or the marriage bed.

[Zerbie]

I don't know if we have to have a separate society in terms of law, but I do see the need for 'society' in terms of culture, which is something that is - historically speaking- is passed down from generation to generation. And I wonder how much of that wisdom has been lost with the terrible decade of AIDS. A whole generation that would be entering the sage years was cut down.

You write of beauty Scotty, it's creation and furtherance. My own sense is that it's existence can only truly flourish when the society that it takes place in makes space for it as well. And the struggle for the latter is what seems to be taking place right now.

We need sanctuary. But we also need the right to sanctuary, whether it is the mountain top or the marriage bed.


:'(:pray:

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