Perhaps now they'll understand....

[dsdrane]

Good morning, All.

Perusing the morning news and points of interest in the blogosphere, as is our custom, catching up on election news and commentary added while we were sleeping, Dash made the following observation:

Perhaps now they'll understand the anger and frustrations GLBT people have felt attempting to counter the radical right's lies all these years.

He was referring, of course, to our allies who -- many, perhaps, for the first time -- are confronting the blatant, flat-out lies that continue to be used by the McCain-Palin campaign. We, as GLBT people, are well-schooled in the kind of jaw-dropping nerve with which our opponents will ignore FACT in favor of dogma and ideology. You can talk until you're blue in the face...(usually) to no effect.

I wonder if some of our allies -- especially those who like to tell us to be patient, to "wait a season" -- will follow their own advice if this election slips out of their hands.

Perhaps now they'll understand....

[ctozrn]

Very good point. It will be interesting to see how things are played out. Things seem to get more interesting by the day. I think if we lose this election to the Republicans for another four years, 12 total, who knows what will happen to all the progress, laws, and policies thatare either in place or we are trying to put into place. I believe that having another four years of Republican policies we stand to see some of the progress that has been made in our community in severe jeopardy. It will be a day of mourning for sure. It makes me very nervous.

Christine

[u-dog]

One ofthe interesting things about the upcoming election is that while the Presidential race is close (due in large part to racism) the senate and house races are not. the Democrats are poised to gain large new majorities in both houses. So even if Obama loses, McCain is NOT going to be able to deliver a far right agenda to his supporters (and I don't think he really wants to do that anyway). He will have to work extensively with his bi-partisan networks to get ANYTHING accomplished. and as it happens, this is what he has always been good at.

I DO NOT want him to win. Don't get me wrong. Especially now that Sarah Pinhead is a heart beat away. But if he DOES win I don't think that its the end of the world. Now... if we end up with President Barbie in the White House... THAT might be the end of the world.

Sigh.

U-dog

[Alecto]

I'm a lot more concerned about appointing Justices. :- /

[Gennee]

Good morning, All.

Perusing the morning news and points of interest in the blogosphere, as is our custom, catching up on election news and commentary added while we were sleeping, Dash made the following observation:

Perhaps now they'll understand the anger and frustrations GLBT people have felt attempting to counter the radical right's lies all these years.

He was referring, of course, to our allies who -- many, perhaps, for the first time -- are confronting the blatant, flat-out lies that continue to be used by the McCain-Palin campaign. We, as GLBT people, are well-schooled in the kind of jaw-dropping nerve with which our opponents will ignore FACT in favor of dogma and ideology. You can talk until you're blue in the face...(usually) to no effect.

I wonder if some of our allies -- especially those who like to tell us to be patient, to "wait a season" -- will follow their own advice if this election slips out of their hands.

Perhaps now they'll understand....

The last paragraph brings up a valid point. While they say "wait a season" more LGBT are discriminated against and even killed. An excellent point, dsdrane.

Gennee

[u-dog]

I'm a lot more concerned about appointing Justices. :- /

All of whom have to be ratified by a democratically controlled Senate.

[ctozrn]

I am learning so much about politics on this site. I have never really been that interested until now. I always voted, I just didn't pay this much attention. Thanks to U-dog and the others for the information. It has helped me to learn so much about how this process works.

Christine

[Zerbie]

All of whom have to be ratified by a democratically controlled Senate.

But with the backbone democrats do NOT have in this day and age (did they ever?), doesn't it stand to reason that they will eventually just cave and okay someone we don't want? Because McBush is going to nominate whoever Gary Bauer and James Dobson want him to. I'll be floored if he ever defies the theocrats.

[dsdrane]

One ofthe interesting things about the upcoming election is that while the Presidential race is close (due in large part to racism) the senate and house races are not. the Democrats are poised to gain large new majorities in both houses. So even if Obama loses, McCain is NOT going to be able to deliver a far right agenda to his supporters....

My (or, rather, Dash's) observation is not so much about the election, as it is about the bigger dynamic of a larger part of society potentially coming to experience -- and perhaps even understand? -- the anger, frustration and real pain that come from fact and truth losing to dogma and lies.

GLBT people know what it's like; women know what it's like, racial and religious "minorities" know what it's like...but I wager there are many out there, who don't know what it's like and, given the times and the merits (or lack thereof) of the two contenders, cannot imagine how Obama might not win.

What happens when being right isn't enough?

Hopefully right will be enough this time and my musings will be rendered moot.

[keltic63]

My (or, rather, Dash's) observation is not so much about the election, as it is about the bigger dynamic of a larger part of society potentially coming to experience -- and perhaps even understand? -- the anger, frustration and real pain that come from fact and truth losing to dogma and lies.

GLBT people know what it's like; women know what it's like, racial and religious "minorities" know what it's like...but I wager there are many out there, who don't know what it's like and, given the times and the merits (or lack thereof) of the two contenders, cannot imagine how Obama might not win.

What happens when being right isn't enough?

Hopefully right will be enough this time and my musings will be rendered moot.

I knew that I had recently read an Irish proverb about this sort of thing:

The well fed does not understand the lean.

at least that's what this discussion brings to mind. I've had the opportunity to talk about these things with some of my colleagues. Because they haven't experienced oppression, or a denial of their civil rights, they don't understand why I might be so upset with this election and the scapegoating of a minority for the sake of winning an election.

[Zerbie]

I've had the opportunity to talk about these things with some of my colleagues. Because they haven't experienced oppression, or a denial of their civil rights, they don't understand why I might be so upset with this election and the scapegoating of a minority for the sake of winning an election.

They DON'T UNDERSTAND why you would be upset by that??????

What the bleep is wrong with them??? You don't have to BE in such a position to see how upsetting it is!!!!

[Gennee]

This is where the problem is, Keltic. Many folks don't understand what it is to be oppressed.

Gennee

[keltic63]

This is where the problem is, Keltic. Many folks don't understand what it is to be oppressed.

Gennee

and that's what reminded me of that Irish proverb.

The well fed does not understand the lean.



it's unbelievable the number of people I work with who did not know that my PA is not recognized by our government. They did not know that I could marry legally in MA. They did not know that my legal MA marriage is not recognized by the state of PA, nor the majority of the other states.

[tymejumper]

Very good point. It will be interesting to see how things are played out. Things seem to get more interesting by the day. I think if we lose this election to the Republicans for another four years, 12 total, who knows what will happen to all the progress, laws, and policies thatare either in place or we are trying to put into place. I believe that having another four years of Republican policies we stand to see some of the progress that has been made in our community in severe jeopardy. It will be a day of mourning for sure. It makes me very nervous.

Christine



I am past nervous, I am downright scared. I remember when all these people signed for the amendment to be put on our constitution in Michigan about marriage. They thought that people would never vote it downa nd that is why they signed it, so it could pass and then no one would be able to overturn it. Well, it backfired.

The writters of it marketed it that coroporations and private colleges could still offer health benefits to gay couples. So, straight people voted to say marriage is only a man and a woman and figured that gay couples would still get the same benefts if a company wanted to give them. Now, there are colleges and companies that are offering benefits and they are being taken to court because "the will of the people and the constitution bans it".

I don't trust ANY of them. I am afraid that people will not vote for Obama and we will be forced to be second class citizens once again. This time, with worse consequences.

[Zerbie]

I'm scared outta my mind that maybe, just maybe, the US elects McCain (perhaps questionably, if many democratic and/or low-income voters are challenged at the polls, or maybe just via Rovian campaign tactics of other sorts,) and that McCain gets in office, and dies. That would leave us with an inexperienced right-wing ideologue as President of the US, and what would that do to the US in relationship to the rest of the world, to our Constitution and Bill of Rights, to the Supreme Court, etc etc etc. ??

Yep. When McCain nominated this incredibly polarizing, dishonest, "pitbull" extremist as VP, I became not merely angered at the idea of a McCain presidency, I became horrified and in great terror of it. I cannot imagine the shambles that could become of the United States if Sarah Palin held the highest executive office in the land. In my worst nightmares, I never anticipated this.

[Alecto]

They DON'T UNDERSTAND why you would be upset by that??????

What the bleep is wrong with them??? You don't have to BE in such a position to see how upsetting it is!!!!

There's a LOT of folks in one marginalized group who still take part in the oppression of other groups. And I'll admit, I think that if I wasn't gay, I probably wouldn't "get it" as much as I do. There's something to be said for privilege not being able to see itself (and that's not always the individual's "fault" as such).

[inca nitta]

I'm scared outta my mind that maybe, just maybe, the US elects McCain (perhaps questionably, if many democratic and/or low-income voters are challenged at the polls, or maybe just via Rovian campaign tactics of other sorts,) and that McCain gets in office, and dies. That would leave us with an inexperienced right-wing ideologue as President of the US, and what would that do to the US in relationship to the rest of the world, to our Constitution and Bill of Rights, to the Supreme Court, etc etc etc. ??

Yep. When McCain nominated this incredibly polarizing, dishonest, "pitbull" extremist as VP, I became not merely angered at the idea of a McCain presidency, I became horrified and in great terror of it. I cannot imagine the shambles that could become of the United States if Sarah Palin held the highest executive office in the land. In my worst nightmares, I never anticipated this.

And if this speculative situation would actually occur, I could assume that Sarah Palin might nominate Condoleeza Rice to be our VP, just for the sake of shocking the world and playing the best political game ever! If something like that happens, I'll loudly scream: "Oh boy!"

So, what about Constitution and Bill of Right? What could Sarah Palin do to them?

[Rick336]

I am also frightened by the prospects of a President Palin. So much so that last Saturday I volunteered down at the Obama headquarters canvassing door to door and registering voters. This weekend I will attend two fund raisers here in town and the first week of October I will be working at the Democratic Party booth at the Dixie Classic Fair.

Being involved seems to help.


Rick

[ctozrn]

I like all of you, am getting more scared by the day. I want to scream at people on TV, the radio, people in public...they just don't seem to get it!!!! Do they really realize all that this woman stands for? Do they know what could happen if she were to land the number one spot in our goverment? I truly believe that we could possibly see the reversal of Roe vs Wade, anti-sodomy laws, hate crime laws, and forget all about gay marriage, adoption or any thing else pro gay people!!!

I am beyond scared, I am terrified! I see more and more people on the news, in the paper, loving Sarah Palin! It is beyond my comprehension... When this whole fiasco started I thought it would blow over, people would see her for who she really is and she would be toast! The opposite is happening. I believe it is all out of fear. There are many people that don't want a black man for President. Plain and simple. I believe that if Obama was white he would win by a landslide. I will keep pulling for him. I believe in him, but I am afraid. I am very afraid.

Christine

[u-dog]

I like all of you, am getting more scared by the day. I want to scream at people on TV, the radio, people in public...they just don't seem to get it!!!! Do they really realize all that this woman stands for? Do they know what could happen if she were to land the number one spot in our goverment? I truly believe that we could possibly see the reversal of Roe vs Wade, anti-sodomy laws, hate crime laws, and forget all about gay marriage, adoption or any thing else pro gay people!!!

I am beyond scared, I am terrified! I see more and more people on the news, in the paper, loving Sarah Palin! It is beyond my comprehension... When this whole fiasco started I thought it would blow over, people would see her for who she really is and she would be toast! The opposite is happening. I believe it is all out of fear. There are many people that don't want a black man for President. Plain and simple. I believe that if Obama was white he would win by a landslide. I will keep pulling for him. I believe in him, but I am afraid. I am very afraid.

Christine

I agree with you Christine, if Obama were white this election would not EVEN BE CLOSE.

I was talking to my eldest son this week on the phone. This is only his second presidential election as a voter and he was begging me to help him understand the very phenomenon that you are describing. He kept saying, "Why don't people see that she is a fake ... a construct... a product. Its so obvious that she is a liar and is just saying what she needs to say to get elected. Her record and all the facts are right there and people don't want to see it." He's a really smart but he's young and a little naive. The obvious stupidity of the electorate was flabbergasting to him.

[ctozrn]

It is equally flabbergasting to me! (and I am neither young, nor naive :) ) I watch people like her more and more everyday and they aren't even listening to her. They just don't get it. If we lose this election to them it will all be based on fear and ignorance.

Sometimes I am amazed that it is 2008.

Christine

[Zerbie]

I am also frightened by the prospects of a President Palin. So much so that last Saturday I volunteered down at the Obama headquarters canvassing door to door and registering voters. This weekend I will attend two fund raisers here in town and the first week of October I will be working at the Democratic Party booth at the Dixie Classic Fair.

Being involved seems to help.


Rick

THANK YOU!!!! We need more people like you!
As soon as 7 Straight Nights is over I want to get involved in the Obama campaign, too.

Zorn (it's Christine, really, right?) alluded to a problem we have in this country that is deeply affecting me too, right now, and I don't know how to deal with it in everyday life, let alone solve it: The polarization that's going on. I understand her feeling like she wants to scream at people.
It feels like we are developing a psychological war amongst citizens. And just when I saw hope for unity, for unifying us as Americans and moving forward to a healthier society.

Yesterday, my Obama buttons had just arrived so I wore them for the first time. Near my left shoulder.
I was DRIVING MY CAR and stopped at a red light. Two pedestrians were passing on the sidewalk to my right. They stopped. They leaned in over the shoulder of the road towards my car and started gesturing, indicating (by pointing to their own shoulders) that they wanted to know who the buttons were for. I mouthed Obama until they read it correctly, whereupon the woman walked off and the man made a sick, nauseous face and walked off shaking his head.
That left me shaking my head that there are people out there who are sickened by a desire to end a wrong war, save lives, save the planet, restore our country to the civil liberties guaranteed by the Bill of Rights but which have been slowly dismantled, and give the economically and politically disenfranchised a chance at fair representation (and in the case of economics, that means a chance at survival, really.) So I thought, wow, that man is sickened by love. And all the judgment that comes with such a thought.

How do we heal rifts like this????

[u-dog]

Zerbie,

I'm sure that those people would not characterize Obama's agenda in those positive terms. They perhaps would use terms like liberal, pro-abortion, tax and spend, soft on terrorism, anti-gun numbskull. They probably wonder how you can justify voting for such an evil person. They no doubt think that you are a moron. If you ONLY watched campaign ads on TV that is almost certainly how you would view the choice in this election. It is very similar to the conversation in my denomination around the moral significance of homosexuality. The people on each side assume that they know the arguments on the other side and don't listen on those rare occasions when they actual talk to each other.

I am working with a colleague of mine, a woman I admire greatly who is on the other side of the issue from me. She and I are developing a little "dog and pony show" where we will converse with one another in front of an audience about recent decisions made by our church and why it is that we hold the positions that we do. Our goal is to model ACTUAL effective communication around differing points view and to demonstrate how it is that people who like and respect each other can hold radically different points of view without assuming that the other person is a moron.

We are going to try it out on my congregation and then hers (both of which are much more conservative than I am) then if it works we may take it on the road to other interested congregations. I'll let you know how it goes ... but it MIGHT be one way to begin to heal the rift. it means finding someone who disagrees with you on the issue but agrees that improving the level of communication is at least as important as being right.

U-dog

[Zerbie]

I don't usually do this -- delete most of a post. But I am so not me today -- it was just a lot of angry ranting that was not even based on anything except a tide of angry emotion, which I can't even identify the source of. There is enough angry ugly stuff out there on the internet without me adding my own crap to the pile.

**
I want to heal the rift, but I'm not able to tolerate the medicine right now without throwing up. I think it's temporary stress.

Also - for some reason, I am all nerves and frayed edges this week. I have had a level of percolating anger going constantly and have absolutely no ability at present to tolerate even the slightest annoyance. It's like Mr Hyde has taken over. That persistent Affekt is certainly coloring the way I look at the conversation around the presidential campaign, as well. The things I'm writing don't look like me or my views, and the way I'm feeling doesn't feel like me, either. I can usually understand a variety of points of view. Something about the polarization going on has frozen me into a hostile mind-set.

[Zerbie]

The people on each side assume that they know the arguments on the other side and don't listen on those rare occasions when they actual talk to each other.

Waita minute, you said TALK to each other? Nobody's talking to each other. It's all sound bites and talking points, and at least since Palin entered the picture, that campaign is riddled with lies. As in completely made up stuff. Complete reversals of the truth.

I would LOVE it if we would talk about issues and find solutions. It's the deliberate lying, the deliberate appeals to racism, the deliberate sell-out to extremists and weirdos like Gary Bauer et al., that precludes conversation. They don't want conversation. They want unchecked power.




I am working with a colleague of mine, a woman I admire greatly who is on the other side of the issue from me. She and I are developing a little "dog and pony show" where we will converse with one another in front of an audience about recent decisions made by our church and why it is that we hold the positions that we do. Our goal is to model ACTUAL effective communication around differing points view and to demonstrate how it is that people who like and respect each other can hold radically different points of view without assuming that the other person is a moron.


U-dog

I normally enjoy disagreement. But not about basic human rights.

[Unmasked]

Perhaps I've missed a bit, but the last time I checked, James Dobson called McCain anti-family, and at the beginning of primary season said that he would refuse to vote if McCain won the primary. A lot of his acolytes have expressed similar sentiments. Unless I missed out on the last divine revelation, I understand that a lot of fundies won't vote.

Please correct and enlighten me if I'm dead wrong.

<3

[Zerbie]

Perhaps I've missed a bit, but the last time I checked, James Dobson called McCain anti-family, and at the beginning of primary season said that he would refuse to vote if McCain won the primary. A lot of his acolytes have expressed similar sentiments. Unless I missed out on the last divine revelation, I understand that a lot of fundies won't vote.

Please correct and enlighten me if I'm dead wrong.

<3

Yes he did, but that was Before.

My impression is McCain picked Sarah Palin for VP because Dobson and his ilk insisted upon it. And that since she was announced for VP, Dobson et al have signed on as supporters.

Can anyone verify if I indeed recall all of this correctly?

[ctozrn]

I have heard and have NO doubt that the evangelicals are the ONLY reason that McCain chose Palin. I have heard that the evangelicals were the group that he really needed to win over. I think if he had not picked someone that was a fundie that he would have never gotten their support. He is not exactly the most spititual of men from what I've seen. Now that Palin is on the scene she has more than made up for what he lacks.

Kinda funny though, as evangelical as she is I see not an ounce of Christ's love coming from her.

(Sorry if this post seems a little judgemental but I am getting so frustrated and cynical with this whole absurd situation. I can't believe the country is not OUTRAGED about this woman!!) :mad:

Christine