hell

[Mia14]

Do you believe in hell?

[Emproph]

It's an extremely intersting topic and an Idea I think we all contend with.

[Lydia]

Yes, but I don't believe in an eternal hell.

[Daniel]

"Hell is other people" is the famous line from Jean Paul Sartre's play "No Exit".

JEAN Paul Sartre's No Exit was first performed at the Vieux-Colombier in May 1944, just before the liberation of Paris. Three characters, a man and two women, find themselves in hell, which for them is a living-room with Second Empire furniture. Each of the characters needs the other two in order to create some illusion about himself. Since existence, for Sartre, is the will to project oneself into the future--to create one's future--the opposite of existence, where man has no power to create his future, his hell. This is the meaning of the Sartrean hell in the morality play No Exit.

The most famous utterance in the play, made by Garcin, when he says that hell is other people, l'enfer, c'est les autres, is, in the briefest form possible, Sartre's definition of man's fundamental sin. When the picture a man has of himself is provided by those who see him, in the distorted image of himself that they give back to him, he has rejected what the philosopher has called reality. www.theatrehistory.com


If life is informed by art, then the art of Sartre has an interesting resonance with the goals of Soulforce. Those who do not have the means to be self-determined - GLBT persons of faith- and are not free from the condemnation of others experience a particular kind of hell. Not a hell in the afterlife, but a living hell.

I say hell no to that.

[Venari]

So far I think I am the only person who has voted yes. I believe there is a hell. But not the hell man has made it to be. You know the hell with all the fire and brimstone and demons torturing people.

To me hell is eternal for people who willingly reject God. And hell is much worse then anything people could come up with. But mostly after we die and we face God and know beyond a shadow of a doubt there is a truly Just and Loving God will we have an eternity in His presence or without it knowing we made that choice.

So I guess hell is having to live with the consequences of your choices with no way out but to face up to them in an eternity in Gods presence or and Eternity knowing there is a God but never knowing his presence again ... I guess an eternity without hope.

Just my rambling thoughts,
Venari

[themattperry]

Thoughts on traditional hell:

If hell is worse than the worst thing we can think of, can it possibly exist? For, if it is ever instantiated and availbale for observation or experience, I would then instantly be able to think of something worse (for example, the same thing, just twice as bad) The concept is not one that is available to my mind in any real way. It is nonsense. But even nonsense has a purpose: to generate fear.


That said, we all experience hell every day. We create our own hells. We find hells within us and in others. Just watch the news.

If you haven't heard it, I recommend listening to the stroy of Carleton Pearson, at one time Oral Robert's protege and an extremely prominent evangelical pastor. One day he woke up and realized his idea of hell didn't make any sense and actually turned the loving, living God into a cruel torturer. This changed everything for him. He is featured on an episode of NPR's This American Life. Free to download at:

www.thislife.org

Look for the December 16, 2005 episode. It also concerns his relationship to the glbt community. Extremely moving.

[Dash]

Years ago I was working through Dante's trilogy. When I got to "Purgatorio", I had a very strong reaction which immediately informed my belief about hell. At the time, I was in so much internal pain...questioning, doubting...self-hating...that the idea then of being consigned to some eternal--or even temporary-- post-corporeal punishment seemed ridiculously redundant.

In short...my life was already hell. So, hell now...followed by hell then...don't believe it.

I believe the Divine Spirit functions in the direction of bringing humanity out of our hell...that vast river flows only one direction...back to it's source.

[awediot]

I believe that we can ultimately, conclusively and with eyes wide open, still reject what God has to offer us. The 'harsh' realities of heaven and 'brutal' honesty it may require, simply may not be ones cup of tea. If we fight against God and all His efforts, refusing His help and guidance, He eventually concedes and lets you go, into all that is left without Him, into what you have demanded. God is defeated by the triumphant damned. He sends no one away and it is the self imposition that consumes, not any sadistic delight in punishnent... He just leaves you alone as requested. If that is hell, then I would answer yes...No one is dragged to His side.


Life is hell? ...I can escape life.

Check out Lewis' The Great Divorce, a piercing fable about a bus full of tourists visiting Heaven, where they are more than welcome to stay if they choose... It is a twist that hits too close to home at times and adds a dimension to free will that is hard to shake.

[Lydia]

In short...my life was already hell. So, hell now...followed by hell then...don't believe it.


So what do you think happens to us after we die, Dash? Heaven for everyone? Do we cease to exist? Are we reincarnated?

Just trying to get a feel for your beliefs.

[Dash]

Well, first of all, I believe we ARE. There isn't really as much of a difference between existence here and "there". Death is just a change of attire...perhaps an un-shading of our eyes...a step back into the garden.

(The way is guarded by a terrible angel with a flaming sword...and we are meant to hesitate at that gate, but that is where the Divine Spirit intends for us to be.)

The literary concepts of Heaven and Hell seem to me to have developed solely as methods of goading and luring humanity into good behavior. Since I believe it is mercenary to be led by my belly and slavish to be chased by the whip into virtue, I shun both images (heaven & hell) as distractions. Or said differently...I choose to be good regardless of whether I am offered heaven or hell. So both "salvation" and "damnation" (as commonly viewed) are somewhat frivolous suppositions to me.

I believe that we are in the process of co-creating ourselves with the Divine Spirit. We are given this beautiful opportunity to shape our own being. When the wrapping comes off...when the mold is shattered...when the curtain drawn away, we shall see how all our work has turned out...a marvel how the fingers of God helped shape our clay.

Some are lesser vessels, some greater...some are designed for very particular usage...some perhaps ornamental... We'll see...

I'm also influenced by Science which taught me that nothing is made or destroyed, but only transformed. There is constancy in the volume of all that is. So I don't believe that souls are destroyed utterly and it seems wasteful to keep a prison for eternity. I believe in the transforming power of Christ which goes far beyond what we can conceive.

I don't believe that we have all the facts just yet, and I don't know what choices any soul, however seemingly heinous and reprehensible their earthly acts may seem, will make when Love comes striding majestically up to greet us at that gate. It's not inconceivable to me that even the "Hitlers" of the world will immediately see the idiocy of their behavior; or even that all of us together might share great gut-shaking guffaws of laughter at the foolishness that marked our childhood.

Here's a beautiful book, if you haven't already read it: Till We Have Faces: A Myth Retold (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0156904365/002-1975577-0417668?v=glance&n=283155) by C. S. Lewis.

[schoolboi]

I believe it is often helpful to find out what something is not before defining what it is.

I have often heard people define hell as separation from God. That sounds good at first glance, the problem is that separation from God is impossible.

Psalms 139:8 "If I make my bed in hell you are there."

If nothing can separate us from the love of God, and God is love, then nothing can separate us from God. Not even sin.

Our concept of God is limited because our concepts of time and space are limited. God is truly "all in all". Nothing can exist outside of God, because God is truly all there is. I am not talking about pantheism. I am just saying if God is not there, then there is not there. Therefore nothing can be separate from God.

This does not say much about what hell is, but it does say a lot about what hell defiantly is not. Hell is not and cannot be separation from God.

[Venari]

To elucidate my point, it is not a separation from God but the absence of His Spirit.

[awediot]

...and mine as well, as it seems to hinge on this seperation...

I would ask, what if ultimately one does not want the love of God, or in other words, one is unwilling to bend to the superiority of God and assume the natural and necessary role of second fiddle? (original sin?) Can such a rebelliousness even exist in the face of Truth, or will this naked Truth burn away the capacity to prefer the self? I think if such an ego is possible, it would rather burn away into nothingness than to follow its impulse to fall on its face in humble worship. I feel free will must be allowed to conclude, even to the point of God allowing Its children to give up existing at all, and go to the one place where God indeed, is not.

[Mia14]

I do not believe in hell. I don't think any loving divine parent would be able to banish children into a horrible place for eternity no matter what the children may do. It simply doesn't fit with my belief of a loving and all-forgiving God.

[Daniel]

Sometimes I think of this:

We live in a world of phenomina- up and down- white and black- good and bad- light and dark- evil and good- male and female.

I wonder if hell isn't simply the gap between all things. The abyss we fall into thinking that everything is as it seems to be. Separate.

How can we concieve of One when all we see is two?

Is that heaven?

One?

[Venari]

I do not believe in hell. I don't think any loving divine parent would be able to banish children into a horrible place for eternity no matter what the children may do. It simply doesn't fit with my belief of a loving and all-forgiving God.

Is this imposing your view on to the issue? That is to say you have an ideal of what God is and that He may do something contrary to that ideal is what you take issue with.

But life is like that in many ways; we have what we want and how things are ... which are often in conflict. As children our parents often did things that seemed harsh and hurtful and we did not understand them ... how much so is it with God?

-Venari

[Jennifer5]

I do not believe in hell. I don't think any loving divine parent would be able to banish children into a horrible place for eternity no matter what the children may do. It simply doesn't fit with my belief of a loving and all-forgiving God.
I don't think I could put my opinion any better.... I would say prefectly said in my mind:)

[Mia14]

Is this imposing your view on to the issue? That is to say you have an ideal of what God is and that He may do something contrary to that ideal is what you take issue with.

But life is like that in many ways; we have what we want and how things are ... which are often in conflict. As children our parents often did things that seemed harsh and hurtful and we did not understand them ... how much so is it with God?

-Venari

I agree that sometimes parents do things that their children may not always see as kind and that often show to be in our own best interest. I don't think that a divine parent would send souls to hell, though. I can understand temporary pains our God may put us through in order tobetter us alter on, but I don't think hell, with no end, would be one of those learning situations.

It's always possible that I'm wrong, especially in this case where nobody truly knows until we're past the sharing opportunity. *shrug* This is where I stand.

[awediot]

It is a tough subject... One thing to ponder on, if I may suggest; --God does not send anyone to Hell. To some, it may just be preferable to the demands of a restored existance... It has been said that Hell is locked from the inside. The tenants may be damned proud of it...

[pnggrad79]

I believe in a God whose love for me and willingness to save me was planned before the universe as we know it existed, i.e from the foundations of the earth. I also believe that when Christ died, I died with him. He not only took my sins to Calvary, he took me as well. I think a person doesn't need to admit he is a sinner to be saved. Salvation is a recognition of what Christ has already done for us. Having said that-I believe we had to be saved from something, or else Christ's sacrifice was meaningless. Ultimately, God's whole purpose and design was to bring His creation back into communion with Him, and Christ was the agent. The Bible is filled with example upon example of people who rejected God and the consequences for such rejection.

Now what happened to them, I am not sure of. I know the Bible says there is a hell, but I don't know if it is metaphorical, or if it is literal. I know we needed to be saved from something-maybe a life that doesn't have God in it. I don't want to belittle the importance of Christ's work on the cross, because it is so great a sacrifice. If we don't accept the life that God intends for us to have, then what is the result? A life apart from the blessings of God? yes, definitely, and all that that implies.

Christ's death was so pivotal, because he changed everything for us. He conquered death and hell. I don't know if hell was different before the Cross than now or not. If Christ conquered it, then is it still the same as what existed in the Old Covenant? It would seem that it wouldn't be. The theme of Jesus' life and God's grace shown to us, would not seem to include the concept of a fiery hell, however, I do think that if we choose not to accept Christ's sacrifice on the cross, we create for ourselves a life without God and that is hell. Maybe after death, our spirit continues to live with those choices. I don't know. I would rather focus on Christ's redeeming work in my life and what that means for me after death, we will see. ;)

[NathanATX]

Maybe the crucifixion was more about man's cruelty and opposition to people who challenge "the status quo" than it was about God having to rescue mankind from something He created...?

[themattperry]

I agree with Bishop John Spong, who called this kind of Jesus the "life-preserver" Jesus.

It is unfortunate that our view of destiny, the cruxifiction etc is limited in that way -- we tend as a race to be so focused on preserving our own skins ... even unto eternity I guess. Instinctual.

Matt

[themattperry]

So if there is a Hell, who goes there?

Do people who have never even heard of Christ go there? Do babies? Can lack of knowledge alone get you the big ticket downstairs? After all, evangelicals tend to believe that we are born (as in birthed) with the stain of sin that only Jesus through our (often adult) baptism can cleanse with his sacrificial blood. So what's the deal?

To use Carleton Pearson's pivotal example. what about the Tibetan Shepherd who has lived a long and virtuous life but never hear the word "Jesus" much less seen a Christian before. Does he end up in the cosmic furnace?

What kind of God would permit that?

[awediot]

?#1: ...who ever sees God as a dick and would rather go to Hell.
?#2,3,4,5,6: ...of course innocent ignorance is no reason for God to damn. He is not a dick. All will be given the chance to make an informed choice.
?#7: ...only the god in your head.

:mad:

I can honestly only partially apologize for the "enough already" vibe of my reply. It is astounding to me the lengths some will go to redefine and update the most basic of Christian concepts. Its source, history, charity, logic, influence and future are meticulously analyzed out of obvious meaning and selectively expounded into the ground without the slightest adjustment or effort to comprehend the childish nature of your exaggerated dilemma... After All, try cutting the familiar, old God a little slack before wasting so much energy concocting His replacement... With all due respect, I hope you are above that last, simplistic post.

[NathanATX]

?#1: ...who ever sees God as a dick and would rather go to Hell.
?#2,3,4,5,6: ...of course innocent ignorance is no reason for God to damn. He is not a dick. All will be given the chance to make an informed choice.
?#7: ...only the god in your head.

:mad:

I can honestly only partially apologize for the "enough already" vibe of my reply. It is astounding to me the lengths some will go to redefine and update the most basic of Christian concepts. Its source, history, charity, logic, influence and future are meticulously analyzed out of obvious meaning and selectively expounded into the ground without the slightest adjustment or effort to comprehend the childish nature of your exaggerated dilemma... After All, try cutting the familiar, old God a little slack before wasting so much energy concocting His replacement... With all due respect, I hope you are above that last, simplistic post.

Uh... You sound so hostile, I'm a little disturbed by your post.

Even the answers you gave reflect elements of what Matt said. Could a sentient & sane human being choose the torment of hell? Most likely not.

[themattperry]

?#1: ...who ever sees God as a dick and would rather go to Hell.
?#2,3,4,5,6: ...of course innocent ignorance is no reason for God to damn. He is not a dick. All will be given the chance to make an informed choice.
?#7: ...only the god in your head.

:mad:

I can honestly only partially apologize for the "enough already" vibe of my reply. It is astounding to me the lengths some will go to redefine and update the most basic of Christian concepts. Its source, history, charity, logic, influence and future are meticulously analyzed out of obvious meaning and selectively expounded into the ground without the slightest adjustment or effort to comprehend the childish nature of your exaggerated dilemma... After All, try cutting the familiar, old God a little slack before wasting so much energy concocting His replacement... With all due respect, I hope you are above that last, simplistic post.


Hmm ...

I guess I don't really know what to say, other than I guess I touched a nerve. I certainly meant no offense.

I guess the only thing I can say is that the answers to my questions that you give are are not always shared by other Christians ... for example, many fundamentalists. For these, ignorance is indeed grounds for damnation (or at least some kind of "modified ignorance" ... I won't bother to try explain what this means because the various expainations of its nature never made any sense to me in the first place.)

I quite agree with you awediot, my questions are easily answered for me ... but that's because I don't conceive of Hell in the traditional way!

But for those who do admit some notion of eternal, extreme damnation and torture after death, the question of who gets to partake must arise. It seems like you are confident in the answers you provide ... However, many of Christians might disagree with you.

This huge variance of opinion is interesting to me.

Anyone else have ideas about this?

Matt

[awediot]

Yeah Matt, ya did hit a nerve, and it's one that has been rubbed raw recently. I am sorry you happened to be one of the final, accidental straws. I appreciate the understanding response. From what I have observed about you here, you do have my respect and admiration. You were just in the wrong place at the wrong time, with just the perfectly wrong innocuous thought to offer...

I must admit to a growing chip on my shoulder that this site does not cause, but collectively adds to. It is a fascinating and frustrating microcosm that allows me to focus where I cannot in the "real" world. I also have put higher expectations on all of your heads than I do the majority of shallower souls that make up my day to day. Fair or not, it is a yoke I think most here are comfortable with... I simply was incensed to encounter such a mistaken, indeed rare set of reasons to dismiss (my) truth. Especially on this intelligent forum, and doubly so because I know no Christians who would argue that an infant is damned for any reason. They are an urban legend in my experience and it seemed they were being magnified for the purpose of discrediting more than it had a right to. (looked like the freakiest on a media blurb of a pride parade).

The exploding Aquarian improvement of so called obsolete absolutes is liberating this country from the very idea of basic right and wrong. And it is done in the gentlest, most condescending ways, seemingly designed to get under my skin, and at that nerve. I wish this were the hell they were describing...

...and Nate, your decidedly sincere desire to understand the crucifixion in a new light played quite a part in my tirade, for reasons I hope are apparent. It is a catalyst of a subject to just make up new meanings for, and I've no doubt I am not the only one who shuddered a little reading it...Matt just blocked for ya.

...the fading away of my balancing 'Heaven' thread, is a tad depressing, and hopefully meaningless. It is a strange constant that we prefer the topic of Hell...

[themattperry]

I simply was incensed to encounter such a mistaken, indeed rare set of reasons to dismiss (my) truth. Especially on this intelligent forum, and doubly so because I know no Christians who would argue that an infant is damned for any reason.

Thanks for the reply awediot ... you seemed to have cooled down which is good. I can also really tell that you very attached to the idea that there is a traditional hell. I think many people are attached to the idea because it contributes to their sense of order in the universe and of who God is, and the lack of a hell does exactly the oposite.

I guess it's completely the reverse of that for me ... in fact, your truth -- for me -- turns God into a torturer and makes no sense to me as a person of this era. Therefore, I don't believe in Hell, either as a place or a state of eternal, absolute being. Just my best guess as of now knowing what I know. Absense from God's Spirit? Human misery? I understand these things. But a punative Hell? I can neither intuit nor understand the concept.

Nathan,

I agree with your point alot -- no one would choose hell if given the choice. Another way people have stated it, however, is that people make choices that result in going to hell.

Still doesn't help me thogh if I just don't understand what Hell even is.

[awediot]

Hey, chilling comes and goes. I'm glad to see you're not the type to get scarred by some cyber stranger's over-reaction. I do feel the type of person who is drawn to express themselves here, share a mutual respect in lieu of agreement. The shear willingness to ask the hard questions, is in itself a potent bond encircling this group... For the record, and future reference, I find the relentless, hyper-nonviolence that saturates this forum, to be a powerful and beautiful methodology for changing one's rival, but here, it is overkill and compels a stifling, heightened fragility that degrades normal, common courtesy. It should not be used to second guess your own passions or delay even hastily pounded out replies to each other. Thoughts and ideas and progress are lost that way...

I can also really tell that you very attached to the idea that there is a traditional hell.

Well, if my believing that the raw honesty, loss of ego, return of power and perfecting of desires, which I imagine make-up much of the nature of Heaven, may in fact be Hell for certain people, and God makes good on His gift of freewill, allowing some of us to defy Him to the end, and go where they want, then I guess you pegged me... But I doubt you got that is the way I see it... I am more than willing to abandon every notion in my head if something better comes along. That is why I am on this site, and on this planet.

I agree with you as well, and cannot conceive of a punitive reason for Hell. It makes God a petty sadist... The idea that God's love allows His own creation to defeat and ultimately reject Him, and understanding how one could feel the pain of that as an embattled triumph of the self, Hell not only makes perfect sense, but turns out we are the ones demanding He leave it to us.

there is no pearly gate, as there is no wall to support it.

[Alktyre]

A lot of the ideas floating around remind me of that Zen proverb about heaven and hell...

"What are the differences between Heaven and Hell?', a young Zen monk asked an aged Buddhist priest who was reknowned for his wisdom.

'There are no material differences,' replied the old monk.

'None at all?' asked the puzzled young monk.

'That's right. Both Heaven and Hell have a spacious hall with a big pot in the center in which noodles are boiled, giving off a delicious scent,' said the old priest. 'The size of the huge pan, the number of people sitting around the pot and the bowl of sauce placed in front of each diner are the same in both places.'

'The odd thing is that each diner is given a pair of meter-long chopsticks and must use them to eat the noodles.'

'To eat the noodles, you must hold the chopsticks properly at their ends,' the old monk told the young Zen monk.

'In the case of Hell's kitchen, people are always hungry because no matter how hard they try, they can't get the noodles into their mouths,' said the old priest.

'But isn't it the same case for the people in Heaven?' the junior monk inquited.

'No. They can eat because they each feed the person sitting opposite them at the table. That's the difference between Heaven and Hell,' explained the old monk."