gay marriage battle enters final phase

[Rick336]

(San Francisco, California) With the clock ticking to election day Tuesday, groups supporting and opposing an amendment to the California constitution - known as Proposition 8 - that would end same-sex marriage in the state are ramping up their efforts.


Read more here ----> http://www.365gay.com/news/calif-gay-marriage-battle-enters-final-phase/


Rick

[Gennee]

It's the final hurdle as to whether propositions in California, Arizona, and Florida pass or fail. Maryland has a transgender issue up for a vote. I encourage everybody to get out there and make your voice be heard on these proposals. VOTE!

Gennee

[Duskmelt]

Right, and equality has my vote; but it's too close to call- I hear that early voting has Prop 8 winning, and that's a big problem:(. We all have to get out and vote!

[tdogg]

Latest polls, No @ 50%, Yes @ 47%. Too close to call at this point.

Stay positive everyone, we need all the positive thoughts we can get! No to both 8 and 102 (Arizona). We have to stop the madness!!!

[BishopIoan]

I'm staying positive but I'm praying like all get-out, too. It is just sad that homophobes get a chance to deny us basic human rights.

[Duskmelt]

Latest results show discrimination winning... I am saddened. I know we Californians are better than that!

[tdogg]

No on 8 is losing by 8 points with 18% precincts reporting. That is not boding well. I'm exhausted and feeling like we aren't going to beat this one.

Gotta go to bed now.

[Jamie McDaniel]

Here is the official page for results.

http://vote.sos.ca.gov/Returns/props/59.htm

You may have trouble with it loading due to the traffic. It is currently showing 29% of the precincts reporting as of 10:20pm. 52.3% yes, 47.7% no.

[Unmasked]

This is driving me mad. I've gotten so much hate on my page about my facebook status. This fight needs to end here.

[evangelicalhumanist]

As a Canadian, living in a nation who's national government has permitted fully equal marriage for both opposite and same-sex couples, I am deeply saddened by the (assumed) result in California.

I wonder, though, what happens now to all those couples who have married? What is their status, as they married when it was legal for them to do so?

Don't ever give up the struggle. As we've proved in Canada, in many European countries (including Catholic Spain), it is winnable. Hearts and minds do change --- eventually.

[tdogg]

What happens is up in the air, no one really knows at this point. I've heard so many different scenarios. I am disappointed with the No on 8 campaign, as well as what I've heard from the No on 102 campaign (Arizona). Too little, too late. We were much too nice. Too mild. Failed to tell it like it was. We didn't engage the opposition, we didn't try to change minds. That's not how I would have run this campaign at all. It's time that people get the complete picture of what their actions will do to others. It's time we call it what it is - discrimination, hate, fear and ignorance.

The problem with our community is we are too damn nice. Of course, it's also one of the most wonderful things too. :love:

[Emproph]

Here is the official page for results.

http://vote.sos.ca.gov/Returns/props/59.htm

You may have trouble with it loading due to the traffic. It is currently showing 29% of the precincts reporting as of 10:20pm. 52.3% yes, 47.7% no.

Prop 8: 51.9% yes, 48.1 no:
http://vote.sos.ca.gov/Returns/props/map190000000008.htm

___
Ballot measures for all states:
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/ballot.measures/

Arizona Proposition 102:
9:04 a.m. EST, Nov 5 '08
Ban on Gay Marriage (http://javascript<b></b>:cnnBMDescription('AZI01');)

Yes 1,039,606 56%
No 801,279 44%

99% of precincts reporting

California Proposition 8:
Ban on Gay Marriage

Yes 5,019,930 52%
No 4,656,291 48%

92% of precincts reporting

Florida Amendment 2:
Ban on Gay Marriage (http://javascript<b></b>:cnnBMDescription('FLI01');)
6:02 a.m. EST, Nov 5 '08

Yes 4,662,558 62%
No 2,851,598 38%

99% of precincts

It turns out that many Obama supporters fell for the lies of the anti-gay industry. :(

[tdogg]

Thanks for the statistics Patrick. I don't think equality will be a major focus for Obama in his first term. We'll have to keep dealing with this at the state level for a while, unless Prop 8 ends up at the US Supreme Court. Some legal experts are predicting that could happen. Only because same sex marriage was legal, now it's not and that leads to 2 questions: (1) is the constitutional amendment retroactive and will those who are married lose that status now, and (2) how can it be right for some couples to be married and others be unable to have the same status?

The ride isn't over, so continue to hang on...

Maybe we come back with our own initiative down the road which includes language to address the fears about education - don't teach marriage in school. If we take out Prop 8 backers #1 fear, what's left for them to base their vote on?

[Emproph]

Don't forget, they didn't just piss off Californians, they pissed of Hollywood.

Woe unto yee, Prop 8 supporters...

[u-dog]

I don't want to be a polyanna. That drives me crazy when other people do it and so don't hear that in what I am about to write, but ...

Look at the exit poll breakdown of who voted how (these are available on the CNN website). The oldest demographic were the MOST opposed to gay marriage and supported "yes on 8" in the highest numbers. the two middle demographics went close to 50/50. The 18-29 demographic went for the "No on 8" position 62%-38%. The next time around more of the 12-18 group will have entered the electorate. The current 18-29s will have moved into the middle brackets and a lot of the 65 and older crowd will have gone home to Jesus (where they will be getting a SEVERE talking to). The tipping point for GLBT justice is almost here. The future is ours if we continue to speak out for equality and to demand justice for all.

The Supreme court ruling was NEVER going to be the end of the story -- even for California and Prop 8 is NOT the end of story either. The majority of kids coming up now don't get the whole homophobia thing and I don't see that changing.

[Rick336]

The current 18-29s will have moved into the middle brackets and a lot of the 65 and older crowd will have gone home to Jesus (where they will be getting a SEVERE talking to).

:lol: And what will Jesus say to them?


Rick

[sjbouza]

I don't think equality will be a major focus for Obama in his first term. We'll have to keep dealing with this at the state level for a while, unless Prop 8 ends up at the US Supreme Court. Some legal experts are predicting that could happen. Only because same sex marriage was legal, now it's not and that leads to 2 questions: (1) is the constitutional amendment retroactive and will those who are married lose that status now, and (2) how can it be right for some couples to be married and others be unable to have the same status?


I agree with you tdogg. However, I think it will end up in the US Supreme Court. Why? Well the wording of the ballot, or at least the last wording that I heard.

I am paraphrasing, "to deny the right of marriage to same sex couples".

How can a popular vote deny a "right"? That would and could be the basis of a great argument. Well, to me it makes sense at least. I think that the anti-same sex marriage people have stepped into a quagmire that they were not anticipating. If it does go to the US Supreme Court and they find it unconstiutional to deny a right to a group of people by popular vote, then that will leave a door wide open to defeating the DOMA.

When the measure was re-worded by the Sec of State, or whomever did it, the anti-people were up in arms about it. They didn't think it was fair because it could hurt their cause if it said something about "denying rights" to people. So they did recognize that it wasn't the right thing to do morally, they just wanted to push their beliefs upon everyone else.

I mean if a state decided to put gun control up for a popular vote and it was defeated, don't you think the NRA would be banging down the courts doors? "You can't deny a constitutional right because of a popular vote." You know what they would win.

I just want to know when everyone can vote on straight marriages?

Anyway, that is my thoughts.

Peace,
Scott

PS My thoughts and prayers are with you California!!!

[BruceChris]

Is that He would allow them to see the humanity of gay people, perhaps people that they knew personally, in such a manner that they would then feel deeply ashamed.

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[u-dog]

:lol: And what will jesus say to them?


Rick

nothing they will want to hear!

[antiochian]

This is so sad. :(

Thanks to all of you who worked so hard in these states promoting equality.

[Unmasked]

This is an outrage. How can it be legal to strip us of rights? I want to scream out. I want to break things. This is unjust, and immoral.

[Rick336]

This is so sad.

Thanks to all of you who worked so hard in these states promoting equality.

Yes. Thanks goes to all of you guys out on California, Arizona, Florida, and Arkansas who fought for equality. :applause:

Freedom takes perseverance. We will eventually win.

Rick

[Unmasked]

It's so hard for me not to lose heart. The fundies are going to waving this as "proof" that God is on their side.

I know that we should take pride in a valiant effort continue to hope, but this hurt a lot.

[Matt Algren]

I'm trying to be optimistic. It's been pointed out that California has an ex post facto law, which means that illegality doesn't apply retroactively. HOWEVER, that law only pertains to criminal law, not civil law. So theoretically, argument could be made the marriages that were certified between June and now could still be considered legal marriages. I'd imagine that this'll be pushed up to the Supreme Court which, after a few Obama justices are in place, might find in our favor. (Word is that Ginsburg, Souter, and Stevens have been waiting to retire until W was out.)

I honestly don't know what more they could have done in CA, FL, and AZ. Are people on the other side too comfortable with the fake polite tenor of the debate? Is it time to put this back in people's faces?

[Unmasked]

I don't want to get nasty, because that's not what Soulforce is about, but how can we fight against an enemy that doesn't fight on the frontlines? We fight injustice. Our opponents harrass our people and murder them in their beds.

[Duskmelt]

Don't forget, they didn't just piss off Californians, they pissed of Hollywood.

Woe unto yee, Prop 8 supporters...

Nice point :lol:

[Duskmelt]

I don't want to get nasty, because that's not what Soulforce is about, but how can we fight against an enemy that doesn't fight on the frontlines? We fight injustice. Our opponents harrass our people and murder them in their beds.

1) Speak out [kindly] about the how wrong homophobia is when ever you meet it and tell your friends to speak against it too.

2) Educate children about how same-sex couples are just like other couples.

It does not have to be nasty, but something must be done. Let's channel this anger into something productive, Unmasked.

[Rick336]

In an article by Ali Davis on the 356gay.com news site, she explains why we should not despair about prop 8:

"Prop 8 didn’t happen because of hatred, it happened because of ignorance. And ignorance is something that chips away. As we make it easier for people in all communities to understand that, yes, they do have gay neighbors and bi siblings and transgendered aunts and they’re actually pretty nice people and the world hasn’t fallen apart, Prop 8 will seem sadder and sillier. And it will go away.

Ignorance is something we can handle. It just takes time.

Please don’t despair."


Click here to read the entire article: -->http://www.365gay.com/opinion/report-from-california-why-we-shouldnt-despair-over-prop-8/


Rick

[Duskmelt]

In an article by Ali Davis on the 356gay.com news site, she explains why we should not despair about prop 8:

"Prop 8 didn’t happen because of hatred, it happened because of ignorance. And ignorance is something that chips away. As we make it easier for people in all communities to understand that, yes, they do have gay neighbors and bi siblings and transgendered aunts and they’re actually pretty nice people and the world hasn’t fallen apart, Prop 8 will seem sadder and sillier. And it will go away.

Ignorance is something we can handle. It just takes time.

Please don’t despair."


Click here to read the entire article: -->http://www.365gay.com/opinion/report-from-california-why-we-shouldnt-despair-over-prop-8/


Rick


Thanks, I too believe that it is not over. The very fact that there were so many No On 8 supporters braving the rain to show their opposition to oppression shows that we are done yet. :pray:

[tymejumper]

I am so sad that they find me not even worthy or human rights, because of who I love......

Peace,
Rebekah

[ctozrn]

We can NOT despair!!!!

In 1963 when Dr. King gave his "I Have A Dream" speech, Civil Rights was just getting it's momentum. They assasinated him. They shot him dead.Not only that but they killed so many others! Hung people from trees! The horrors of the Civil Rights Movement go on and on....

Who in their right mind thought that 45 years later we would be electing a black man as our PRESIDENT!! I saw many interviews today with people that were involved in this time period. They say that they never thought they would see an African American as our president.

My point is this, the Prop8 is going to be the same. We will have to fight hard. We will have days of despair like this one. Dark days. It will happen though. If we as Americans can go from spitting on black children as they walked into newly segregated schools, to electing those same people to President of the United States, then we can also change the hearts and minds of people that are ignorant to the rights of LGBT. We will do it though. We did it yesterday and someday we will do if for LGBT rights. It will take time, prayers, education. We must persevere. Just as those that have gone before us.

We must go into our communities with our families, partners. We must speak to our friends, neighbors, coworkers. Many people don't know about all the reasons we need these rights. We must educate!!

I want to thank everyone on these forums that volunteered in CA, AZ, and FL. Your work has not gone unnoticed!! Your hard work will continue. It was not in vain! We must start off from where this ended. LGBT marriage will happen. I believe it will happen in my lifetime. I may be that 105 year old grandma in someones acceptance speech when it does, but it will.

We must not give up! The fight continues!!!

Christine

[Daniel]

Notes that a legal challenge has already been filed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_8_(2008)


Three lawsuits were filed the day after the election, challenging the validity of Proposition 8, on the grounds that revoking the right of same sex couples to marry was a constitutional "revision" rather than an "amendment", and therefore required the prior approval of 2/3 of each house of the California State Legislature. Plaintiffs in the various suits included same-sex couples who had married or planned to marry, the cities of San Francisco and Los Angeles, and the county of Santa Clara.

Let the fun begin! :rolleyes:

[tdogg]

I've heard so many possible scenarios, my brain is spinning. But what has happened is, No on 8 is refusing to give up until every single vote is counted, even though the Yes on 8 people have proclaimed victory. A legal action (injunction maybe?) is being prepared and as soon as all votes are counted will be filed. Gloria Allred has filed a lawsuit against Yes on 8 on behalf of a lesbian couple, which supposedly will be based on a new and controversial aspect. Some counties (including mine) have ceased allowing same sex couples to marry. Our Attorney General has vowed to defend the marriages of those who are married, but cannot act on behalf of those who are trying to marry now because he states Prop 8 is in effect.

What I don't know - will my marriage be valid in the future? Will we be successful at getting Prop 8 into the state supreme court and then possibly beyond? What implications will the new and controversial aspect of Ms. Allred's suit bring to the whole picture?

A wise and wonderful warrior goddess reminded me of a few things today. She reminded me that the struggle for racial equality took at least a century and we have just now, in 2008, witnessed the victory of the first African American president. Our struggle (in the open) is relatively new, and yet we have made great strides. In 2000, Prop 22 (anti-gay measure) won with 61% of the vote. Today Prop 8 is winning with just 52%. Give us another 4 years, if the trend continues we have marriage equality in California. And we have a new and bright hope in the white house. Possibly recognition at the federal level sometime in the next 8 years. (thanks and love to our friend Zerbie :love: )

But it will take us getting off our duffs and doing something. Read the recent article at Daily Kors (don't have the website, powerful article). Complacency is no longer going to work. We have to talk to people, we have to engage those who voted yes. We have to personalize our message and let them know the damage their vote and their opinion is doing. It's not enough to preach to the choir, hold signs and hope for the best. Although there is hatred out there (I've seen enough of it over the last few days), the balance was shifted to the Yes side through ignorance and fear. Those are the votes that would have made a difference. We'll never change the mind of those who steadfastly hold to anti-gay sentiments. But we have the ability and power to change the mind of the mostly undecideds (that voted yes), through personal stories and examples of our love and our struggle.

That combined with the open mindedness and future vision of our youth and young adults, will help us really see significant progress in the near future. Although I am sad today and it was difficult to be at work knowing many of my co-workers voted to take away my civil rights, I'm also hopeful for the future. I'm concentrating on the journey, and excitement of being a part of history in the making, and the hope of a bright new dawn with Obama at the helm and equality steering steadily towards us, ever faster and ever true. I love you all, and thanks for your support and encouragement of those of us in CA, and those who worked so diligently in Arizona, Florida and all the other states with election issues at stake. :love::love:

[ctozrn]

Our prayers, thoughts are all of you fighting in these states! Especially those of you that have married and now face having that possibly taken away. Those of us in other states know that you are all paving the path for the rest of us. What happens in CA, FL, AZ will eventually happen for the rest of us! Thank you for being the trailblazers!

It will happen....We shall overcome. Even if the state says they will not honor the marriage. You are married in God's eyes. That is what matters the most. Although, we all need the rights and securities that go along with that!

Our thoughts and prayers are with all of you waiting....

Christine

[tdogg]

Thanks Christine, your support and encouragement mean a lot. We are sad and a little scared out here in CA. Although my wife and I agree, we have each other and our love and that's the most important thing, our rights and protections are now up in the air. We will hang on to them as long as possible. There were some victories however, along with Obama, we now have a Democratic Senate majority, and similar victories were won in Massachusetts (and I believe at least one more state), where equality can better progress. It seems like the east coast progressed further than those of us in the west and south, but it's all working towards equality nationwide.

One thing is for sure, our resolve is not broken and our hope is not killed. GLBT people are resilient and dedicated, strong and compassionate. We will eventually prevail. Thanks again. One of the most wonderful experiences for me through the entire No on 8 campaign, was on election day as I stood at polling places, being thanked for so many people for standing up and being there. To defend equality and make a statement. It constantly brought tears to my eyes knowing that what little I could do meant a lot to others. I really appreciate your kind words and thoughts everyone. :love::love::rainbow:

[evangelicalhumanist]

I don't want to get nasty, because that's not what Soulforce is about, but how can we fight against an enemy that doesn't fight on the frontlines? We fight injustice. Our opponents harrass our people and murder them in their beds.
1) Speak out [kindly] about the how wrong homophobia is when ever you meet it and tell your friends to speak against it too.

2) Educate children about how same-sex couples are just like other couples.

It does not have to be nasty, but something must be done. Let's channel this anger into something productive, Unmasked.
Very wise. If you assume that people voted "yes" out of hate, then you will have to fight a war. If you assume that many voted "yes" out of ignorance or fear, then you have education and trust-building as tools to work with. Once everybody has dug into a position, there's not much else you can do but shoot at each other from your redoubt. The way forward must be positive.

[Matt Algren]

1) Speak out [kindly]...

I'm going to disagree with the majority of people here. I just can't speak out kindly anymore.

Speaking out kindly has allowed people to believe that this is just a difference of opinion that we're on the wrong side of, when the truth is that this is about truth and un-truth. Speaking out kindly has allowed people to pat us on the head like children and assure us that they really do love us, when the truth is that they think their lives would be so much better if we didn't complicate things with our existence. Speaking out kindly has permitted people to listen to Dobson and his minions and convince themselves that we're broken wretches who just don't want to be fixed, when the truth is that we're only broken by their hate.

They are the schoolyard bully your parents said would leave you alone if you didn't react. I won't let them keep punching me in the gut. No more.

edit: Upon re-reading, I see that this could be interpreted as a call to violence, which is not my intent. I'm just saying that I don't know how to do the "kindly" part anymore.

[Duskmelt]

I'm going to disagree with the majority of people here. I just can't speak out kindly anymore.

Speaking out kindly has allowed people to believe that this is just a difference of opinion that we're on the wrong side of, when the truth is that this is about truth and un-truth. Speaking out kindly has allowed people to pat us on the head like children and assure us that they really do love us, when the truth is that they think their lives would be so much better if we didn't complicate things with our existence. Speaking out kindly has permitted people to listen to Dobson and his minions and convince themselves that we're broken wretches who just don't want to be fixed, when the truth is that we're only broken by their hate.

They are the schoolyard bully your parents said would leave you alone if you didn't react. I won't let them keep punching me in the gut. No more.

edit: Upon re-reading, I see that this could be interpreted as a call to violence, which is not my intent. I'm just saying that I don't know how to do the "kindly" part anymore.

I am sorry to hear that and to an extent, I agree. We have all been hurt by this proposition and, of course we are all upset, confused, and angry. We all want to go out and sock people in the jaws (especially those that voted yes) or argue hot-headedly with others about the issue. Problem is, I highly doubt the ignorant will be convinced if we are too agressive with them. Nobody learns anything if they are busy trying to fight back against us, since we would be deemed a threat. As my Aikido sensei taught me, resistence will always be met with resistence. That is why the two sides "Yes on 8" and "No on 8" stand there and scream at each other while no one undecided is influenced by, as the average Joe would put it "one of those activists" and no one on one side decides to join the other. We don't listen to whoever that's not on our side anyway.
So arguing, making others angry, calling names, and other methods that will trigger people's instincts to defend themsleves are not effective ways to convince the everyday person. I must say that "talking kindly" sounds a bit naive though and that there are better options. For example, those that make bystanders think that we are relevant to them, that we are in this fight for human rights together, and maybe, at the very least, we are not so scary (not a threat, or opposing them). Bringing it closer to this issue, homophobia seems to be harvested by the thought that what homosexuals are doing is wrong, against the bible, and/or deviant from normal society (which triggers defensive instincts that leads to hate crime). Slowly, as the GLBT community intergrates itself with everyday life and other people, they will become accepted as normal. That is one way that we can "fight" against this oppression, and that is a peaceful way, kinder than spitting about "biogotry" and "those Christians!" and so will seep past instinctual defenses and change society. Discuss, please.

[Gennee]

I don't want to be a polyanna. That drives me crazy when other people do it and so don't hear that in what I am about to write, but ...

Look at the exit poll breakdown of who voted how (these are available on the CNN website). The oldest demographic were the MOST opposed to gay marriage and supported "yes on 8" in the highest numbers. the two middle demographics went close to 50/50. The 18-29 demographic went for the "No on 8" position 62%-38%. The next time around more of the 12-18 group will have entered the electorate. The current 18-29s will have moved into the middle brackets and a lot of the 65 and older crowd will have gone home to Jesus (where they will be getting a SEVERE talking to). The tipping point for GLBT justice is almost here. The future is ours if we continue to speak out for equality and to demand justice for all.

The Supreme court ruling was NEVER going to be the end of the story -- even for California and Prop 8 is NOT the end of story either. The majority of kids coming up now don't get the whole homophobia thing and I don't see that changing.

The older ones are more conservative so it's not surprising they voted the way they did. Also a lot of older folks are resistant to change. They also have the most money.The middle group is where there needs to be more work done. This is just me thinking out loud but I wonder how many in this group understood what the issue was really about?

Gennee

[tdogg]

I'm not sure what you mean by unkindly Matt, but I agree that it's time for us to quit being so damn nice. We are way too nice, don't want to hurt feelings, don't want to make people uncomfortable. That was a problem with the No on 8 campaign (and yet still we barely lost).

It's time to tell it like it is, call it what it is. Discrimination, despicable, hateful and for many, a result of ignorance. We have to call them on their lies, bring it out into the open. We have to give them real life examples of how the discrimination hurts us, and eventually will hurt them. We'll never change the mind of those who hate us, but eventually they will disappear. What we do need to do, is reach out to those who are uncertain, ignorant and wavering. Truth and impact, but that can be done with tact and compassion and still get the point across. I'm tired of our talking about how these anti-gay propositions are 'wrong' and 'unfair'. They are outright discrimination. They take away fundamental civil rights from a minority. It's not ok to discriminate. It's not ok to force religious beliefs on everyone. It's not ok to have exclusive rights that would be denied GLBT people.

There needs to be a grass roots effort starting today. We can't wait for the legal actions to go somewhere. We can't wait for 2010. We have to talk to the fence sitters, the undecideds, the ones who really don't have a problem with same sex marriage, but bought into the lies about education, lawsuits and such. And we can no longer sugar coat our message.

[Duskmelt]

I am sorry to hear that and to an extent, I agree. We have all been hurt by this proposition and, of course we are all upset, confused, and angry. We all want to go out and sock people in the jaws (especially those that voted yes) or argue hot-headedly with others about the issue. Problem is, I highly doubt the ignorant will be convinced if we are too agressive with them. Nobody learns anything if they are busy trying to fight back against us, since we would be deemed a threat. As my Aikido sensei taught me, resistence will always be met with resistence. That is why the two sides "Yes on 8" and "No on 8" stand there and scream at each other while no one undecided is influenced by, as the average Joe would put it "one of those activists" and no one on one side decides to join the other. We don't listen to whoever that's not on our side anyway.
So arguing, making others angry, calling names, and other methods that will trigger people's instincts to defend themsleves are not effective ways to convince the everyday person. I must say that "talking kindly" sounds a bit naive though and that there are better options. For example, those that make bystanders think that we are relevant to them, that we are in this fight for human rights together, and maybe, at the very least, we are not so scary (not a threat, or opposing them). Bringing it closer to this issue, homophobia seems to be harvested by the thought that what homosexuals are doing is wrong, against the bible, and/or deviant from normal society (which triggers defensive instincts that leads to hate crime). Slowly, as the GLBT community intergrates itself with everyday life and other people, they will become accepted as normal. That is one way that we can "fight" against this oppression, and that is a peaceful way, kinder than spitting about "biogotry" and "those Christians!" and so will seep past instinctual defenses and change society. Discuss, please.

As I suspected, my answer is not the best. Now that I have considered MLK jr.'s words, I really need to think about how we can convince others. I'm sure it's more complicated than just talking nicely or arguing.

"First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season."

Shallow understanding from people of goodwill is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection."

Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
Letter from Birmingham Jail
16 April 1963

[Emproph]

Friday, November 7, 2008

"It's A Second Stonewall," says Stonewall Veteran. Police report, "This is massive"

http://thesmokingcocktail.blogspot.com/2008/11/its-second-stonewall-police-report-this.html

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_UwODXTof4dY/SRQ4XXFmAUI/AAAAAAAAAWg/-NnZvDLO9_o/s400/1106081655.jpg

[nmwolfboy]

My partner was talking earlier this evening with a local gay rights attorney/activist (currently attending the National Equality PAC conference in San Francisco) who told him about a new suit bring filed and who predicted that the passage of Prop 8 in California and the other lawsuits already moving ahead against it with the CA Supreme Court are likely to have one of two legal outcomes:
1. Prop 8 is ruled void, because it contradicts the more fundamental & central Equal Protection Clause of the CA Constitution, and changes to the fundamentals of the CA Constitution cannot legally be made by ballot initiatives, unless the proposition is first passed by the state's legislature (this is the decision i think most likely).
2. Since the CA Supreme Court has already established the precedent that civil marriage in the state is subject to the Equal Protection Clause, and therefore requires equal treatment under the law for all citizens, civil marriage ends up being banned for everyone because of the passage of the Prop 8 marriage ban. (Of course, banning all marriage is unlikely, though if the opportunity presents itself in this newest lawsuit, it will be argued in an effort to persuade the court to simply overturn Prop 8)

If #2 happens, talk about the Yes on 8 folks being hoisted on their own petards! :eek:

Please check out the opinion piece "Gays in a Cage" (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-patrick-king/gays-in-a-cage_b_142268.html) by Michael Patrick King.

This week's election in CA also saw the passage of Prop 2, which prohibits the cruel confinement of farm animals in a manner that does not allow them to tum around freely, lie down, stand up, and fully extend their limbs. i mention this so the attached picture will make sense.

[tdogg]

Wolfboy,

Some of the legal opinions I've heard basically say there's no hope of fighting Prop 8 and we'll have to focus on a future ballot initiative to turn it around. I've heard so much speculation, one moment I have hope, the next I have despair. Who to believe? Do you think we really have a shot with the legal actions?

I don't think we should wait for legal actions or 2010. I think we need to start a grass roots ground campaign to reach out to those who were unsure but voted yes anyway. Reach out to allies and reach out to minorities. That is where we fell short with No on Prop 8. We need to get our stories out and make it personal.

Still, I hold out hope that Prop 8 will be ruled unconstitutional in the near future and trying to not listen to the naysayers.

[nmwolfboy]

i'm no lawyer, and who really knows for sure how the courts will react to the several petitions/lawsuits that have been filed? i do have alot of respect for our local gay rights attorney, who until recently was the Executive Director of Equality New Mexico. Her assessments have been pretty spot on in the past, but i don't know how well versed she is in California law. Still, she seemed really positive based upon what she was hearing at the National Equality Pac conference.

i have nothing solid to base this upon, but for some reason i feel really hopeful that Prop 8 will backfire on the bigots. The most troubling thing i've heard in the past couple of days is that a few people at the protests are flinging racial epithets, and one activist friend in LA reported to us that he was hearing some advocacy for violence. i really hope non-violence and higher ideals prevail, though outrage is certainly good fuel to push for our rights.

Thanks to Rick's alert, i've gotten the word out to some of my activist buddies here in New Mexico. We're making connections for a local action on 11/15 in Albuquerque. Into the streets!!!!!