Where's Jesus?

[Rick336]

In Corinthians 1 Paul says that Jesus appears to hundreds of people, including him:

1 Corinthians 15:3-6 - For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.

So, we know that Jesus can appear to many people because Corinthians 1 says he did.


In John, Jesus himself says:

John 14:13 - You can ask for anything in my name, and I will do it, so that the Son can bring glory to the Father. Yes, ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it!


So here's my question:

If Jesus says that we can ask him anything in his name and he will do it, just like it says in John 14, then why can't we pray for him to appear before us like he did in Corinthians 1?

Imagine how many non-believers, Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, Pagans, and millions of other non-Christians would be saved from an eternity in hell if only Jesus would appear before us right now.

So where is he?


Rick

[tdogg]

Can we ask him to make the votes yet to be counted, No votes for Prop 8??? Would he do that? You think?

Jesus was a liberal but he hasn't answered all of my prayers. Some, but mostly not. I keep trying. :o

[Zerbie]

So where is he?

Rick

In you.
:dove:

[ctozrn]

Zerbie,

That was an awesome response! You always have the most compassionate, carling, loving responses. How do stay so positive? How do you seem to always see the glass as half full? I struggle with negativity and am really trying to change that. I always admire what you say and how you say it.

Christine

[Zerbie]

Zerbie,

That was an awesome response! You always have the most compassionate, carling, loving responses. How do stay so positive? How do you seem to always see the glass as half full? I struggle with negativity and am really trying to change that. I always admire what you say and how you say it.

Christine

Truth is, I don't. Stay so positive, that is.

I have a lot of negative thoughts. I simply try my best not to express them because I figure, eventually the thought will change and pass away on its own.

If a positive thought comes, then I'll say it. But I try not to voice the others.

[keltic63]

Rick,

Thank you for this post! I know you've been reluctant to say much about religion, but I've got to say that not only do you have me laughing, you also have me thinking.

I hesitate to call myself christian because of the negative connotations that I associate with that word. I can only imagine how much more that affects others who totally dismiss christianity.

I can answer this way, "Blessed are those who have not seen and believe" but then, we'd start arguing in circles :lol:

[labguy22]

I hesitate to call myself christian because of the negative connotations that I associate with that word. I can only imagine how much more that affects others who totally dismiss christianity.


Wow Keltic, this is exactly what I have been feeling lately; especially how "Christians" have been acting regarding Prop 8. I recently told my husband that I am removing the label of Christian from myself. I try and follow the teachings of the Christ, and also the Buddha but haven't found a clever way to combine the two...any suggestions; anyone???

[Zerbie]

Wow Keltic, this is exactly what I have been feeling lately; especially how "Christians" have been acting regarding Prop 8. I recently told my husband that I am removing the label of Christian from myself. I try and follow the teachings of the Christ, and also the Buddha but haven't found a clever way to combine the two...any suggestions; anyone???

Oh geez, look at us! :o

For my part, this week I'm right back where I was in high school, when "Of course I hate Christians! I'm a good person!" was sort of my mantra.

The pastor at the church I have been going to for the last five months once said that the way to rectify problems like what we saw on Tuesday was not to throw away religion, but to replace it with "Better Religion."

[Daniel]

I try and follow the teachings of the Christ, and also the Buddha but haven't found a clever way to combine the two...any suggestions; anyone???


But simple.

Having compassion for one's self and others. Compassion for actions made out of ignorance. Compassion for actions made out of love.

Compasson. Compassion. Compassion.

This is- I think- central to the teachings/worldview of Christ and the Buddha.

[keltic63]

But simple.

Having compassion for one's self and others. Compassion for actions made out of ignorance. Compassion for actions made out of love.

Compasson. Compassion. Compassion.

This is- I think- central to the teachings/worldview of Christ and the Buddha.


compassion: how often I've used that word since Tuesday evening.....

I am full of hope in light of Obama's success, but I'm not naive enough to believe that this is our salvation. Wednesday evening, the president of the PTO at the school where I teach came to see me during conferences. I hugged her and asked how happy she was today (she's an African-American woman) and we had an amazing discussion. I said that I was happy but cautious about what Obama would be able to accomplish, and she agreed. I mentioned the behavior of McCain's crowd during his concession speech (booing and jeering at the mention of Obama's name) versus the behavior of Obama's crowd during his acceptance speech (polite applause and cheering at McCain's name.) We talked about compassion for each other, and the sense that this would come from Obama, at the top, in charge, and that there really was this difference in the 2 parties.

There's nothing in Buddhism that does not line up with the teachings of Jesus. at least, not as I've been able to figure out.

[Zerbie]

There's nothing in Buddhism that does not line up with the teachings of Jesus. at least, not as I've been able to figure out.

That makes sense, as the teachings are universal. They (Jesus and Buddha) would both be manifestations of the same divinity.

[ctozrn]

Christianity has left such a bad taste in my mouth for so long. I have been embarassed to say that I was a Christian. I so don't want to be associated with those Christians that spew hate at so many. I struggle with trying to label what I am. I have also been exploring the teachings of Buddha and have found much peace and clarity into my own issues through his teachings.

All I know is this. I attend a UMC contemporary service where I am known and loved. When the band starts to play and I start singing the praise and worship songs, I am filled with the holy spirit. From the chills from the top of my head to my toes, to the tears I shed, to the high I feel singing about Christ's love. I have even been downloading Christian music on my ipod! My pastor moves me to tears...happy ones...ones filled with hope.

That said, this is the kind of thing I stayed away from for 20 plus years because I identified Christianity with hate, opression, and judgement.

I still struggle with this but I know I *feel* Christ in my life in so many areas and times. This is all I know. I also know this is also the same faith that my LGBT sisters and brothers struggle with everyday.

Christine

[tdogg]

Having been raised in a religious (Pentecostal) family since about age 8 or 9, I used to identify as christian. I would qualify it by saying, but I'm the worst Christian you'll know. Mainly because I just didn't buy much of what was preached and taught. I sort of thought everyone was equal and deserved to love and be loved. I couldn't really fathom hell. I was never successful at speaking in tongues. I couldn't understand a good portion of the bible I read. I often just never felt the spirit (although I often did, but usually when I was one with nature). Sometimes I would in church, mainly in the smaller sessions when I blocked out all the other people.

So now, after experiencing rejection and despise from my Christian friends and family, after hearing the hateful words of those who call themselves Christians, and after having many of those who identify as followers of Christ treat me and others badly and concentrate their efforts on things I do not see as compassionate - I no longer identify as Christian.

I just say I'm spiritual. I believe in Christ, and I believe that he is a deity. I also believe he would not approve of those who call themselves Christians today. I think he would identify with Buddha, as they both approached life and taught compassion, love and caring. Perhaps they were brothers, meant to reach different people in different locations but teaching the same message of love.

I would like to note, and thank, those straight Christians who came out in support of voting No on prop 8. I'm sure they were there in Arizona, Florida and Arkansas too. Many stood up for us and with us, demanding equality and demanding that those who would strip it away from us to cease calling themselves Christians. They weren't the majority, but they certainly were there fighting for and with us. :love: They get Jesus' message of love!

[ctozrn]

T-dogg,

I am from West Covina, Ca originally and I am sure that I had many "Christian" family members voting against. I also have a lesbian cousin in Fontana with many loving straight family members that got out out in support of her! I have one side of my family that are very judgemental, fundamental Christians and then another that are truly awesome!

Christine

[antiochian]

I don't know if I dare and get started... Counting to 10... I think Christians are some of the most evil people on this planet. Not all of them, but many of them. They say they "love us," yet they don't want hate crime legislation, let alone marriage rights for us.

I don't know what to think about the Church. I know that the person of Christ continues to attract me. The Christ of Christian fundamentalism is a counterfeit. I will deny that Christ to my last breath. My God can't fit in a fundamentalist box.

[ctozrn]

I completely agree. I think the Christ that the fundies worship is ashamed and disgraced at what they have done. My Christ that I follow and worship is not the one that they claim. It is so sad. Like there are two different Christanities and two Christs....

[labguy22]

Having compassion for one's self and others. Compassion for actions made out of ignorance. Compassion for actions made out of love.

Compassion. Compassion. Compassion.

A Compassionist...I love it!!!

The Christ of Christian fundamentalism is a counterfeit. I will deny that Christ to my last breath.

I completely agree. I think the Christ that the fundies worship is ashamed and disgraced at what they have done. My Christ that I follow and worship is not the one that they claim. It is so sad. Like there are two different Christanities and two Christs....

Wow, sounds like an old StarTrek episode with Good Kirk, Evil Kirk :lol:

But I completely agree.

I heard it somewhere that many evangelicals follow a "Rambo Christ" as opposed to the one taught in texts. This always makes me laugh as I mentally replace Sly Stalones head with that commonly used for Christ.
Then the realization sinks in of what that means to those who follow that type of Christ and it scares the hell out of me.

[sauu4equality]

I agree that the teachings of Christ match up very well with Buddhist teachings. In fact some believe Christ was the leader of a Buddhist sect. However, belief in God as a decision-making, autonomous being is not really compatible with Buddhism. Agnosticism fits better. Until we have evidence of God's existence, the Buddha would say this idea is irrelevant. He would also teach that we do not have a soul. However, the essense that he talks about that continues after we die (in reincarnation), does, to me, resemble a soul. If we are not completely lost once our body is no longer, it would seem to me that you could certainly build that bridge to believing in a soul. I think some Buddhists are too quick to believe that we do not have a soul. And some Buddhists, like the Tibetans, actually believe in a deity. But they really are the minority in Buddhism. Buddhist belief in God is usually a belief in the interconnectedness of us all and that we are all a part of God. Rather than God being something separate from us. This is not completely incompatible with the teachings of Christ. I think the phrase "become one with God" may be in the Bible somewhere. But the Bible is so mudded up it's hard to tell what Christ actually meant. For instance, he mentions that he and the Father are one and then in another section of the gospels he says that the father is greater than I...So, he could have been grossly misinterpreted here. You could say that he means that all can be one with the father and because he is enlightened he is one with the Universe...but I think most Christians would say this is a stretch. So, it is certainly ok for a Christian to use Buddhist practice to enhance their life. And for a Buddhist to believe in Christ. But, as the Dalai Lama says, "If you have a particular faith or religion, that is good. But you can survive without it."

Having compassion and practicing meditation are great tools for everyone. Using the 4 Noble Truths to end suffering in your life is certainly possible for a Christian. Believing in God can be done in a healthy way. Personally, I think being a universalist is healthier than actually believing that some will burn forever. It is slightly more compassionate. There are good books that discuss why hell is not an idea that Jesus believed in. Christians who believe in hell should read these books and make their own decisions. Wouldn't it be so much easier to be compassionate for Atheists and people of other faiths if you weren't convinced that they were going to hell?

[glasjulz]

In you.
:dove:

I agree.

As voiced by many I was away from the Church for a very long time. I didn't feel like I belonged, that there wasn't a place for me. Thankfully with the help of friends, I have found my way back.

Although I can't phyically see Christ, I know he is with me.

Julie

[Gennee]

Asking Jesus to come into my heart was a crowning point in my life some 36 years ago. There's cultural Christianity and there's biblical Christianity. I choose to do the latter. Over the years I have studied quite a bit as to what the bible says and does not say. One point that I stress is that we are to love our neighbors as ourselves. To those who hate us I would say that we are your neighbors. Partiality is condemned in scripture, something I wonder if it is ever mentioned.

I maintain that being a Christian is a life that is walked rather than talked. I believe that the LGBT population is putting some Christians on the spot as to whether they really do love their neighbor. Some of the most venomous diatrobe I have heard have come from some of these so-called 'Christians'.

The best way to show love is to demonstrate it in action. My love for my GLBT sisters and brothers has blossomed dring these difficult times. If only our adversaries would demonstrate that same love.

Gennee

[Emproph]

http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2882#post2882

[sauu4equality]

http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2882#post2882

I like the idea of intelligent design as the thread you have posted refers to. However, intelligent design doesn't begin to prove that any of the Bible happened. Only that there is likely something other than mere chaos that is responsible for our existence. In fact, this phenomenon points much more toward Buddhist and Advaita Vedanta adhering Hindu views of the world. Not evidence of the Judeo-Christian God. While this thread did evolve into a discussion of whether or not God exists, the original question was specifically about where Jesus is when his people are getting throttled by evil. A question that intelligent design cannot begin to answer.

[Rick336]

These are all well thought out answers. But we‘re getting away from my original question. Can we get Jesus to appear before us?

Jesus clearly states in John 14 that we can ask him "anything" and he will do it.

John 14:13 - “You can ask for anything in my name, and I will do it, so that the Son can bring glory to the Father. Yes, ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it!”

So if we all got together, held hands and prayed for Jesus to physically materialize before our eyes, would it happen? We know that he can do it because he did it 2,000 years ago as Paul described in Corinthians 1.

1 Corinthians 15 - “Then he appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time….”

If the answer is "No, of course he won't appear. Are you insane?" that means that Jesus really didn't mean what he said in John 14 that we can ask him "anything" and he will do it.

But, if the answer is "Yes, if Jesus said he'll do anything we ask him to, then I believe he will do it because Jesus doesn't lie," then let's set a time and place and pray for him to magically appear before us. I'll bring my video camera.


Rick

[Zerbie]

Well, I think one possible response you may get, Rick, is the one about not tempting God. Didn't Jesus say something about not tempting God when Satan was urging him to do this or that thing during the 40 days?

I dunno. I've never even read a Bible (did read Matthew finally, last year,) but I've heard something like the above recited a few times.

But, I suppose if you want to make an experiment of your own, you could give it a try and see what happens.

[wmanion]

There is a difference in tempting God than asking him to do what he says he will do. When he was tempted, the Devil was asking him to do something that was wrong. So, would it be wrong for us to ask Jesus to appear to us physically?

Bill

[Zerbie]

There is a difference in tempting God than asking him to do what he says he will do. When he was tempted, the Devil was asking him to do something that was wrong. So, would it be wrong for us to ask Jesus to appear to us physically?

Bill

What was the thing that was wrong?

[wmanion]

The Devil was offering Christ dominion over the world if he would denounce God. He was wanting him to come over to his side. So in essence the Devil was tempting Christ to go against his father's will, which of course would have been wrong.

Bill

[Zerbie]

The Devil was offering Christ dominion over the world if he would denounce God. He was wanting him to come over to his side. So in essence the Devil was tempting Christ to go against his father's will, which of course would have been wrong.

Bill

There were two other things before that. Those are what I was trying to recall.

[wmanion]

# Worship the devil in return for all the kingdoms of the world. Luke has the devil explicitly claim this authority had previously been handed to himself, the devil.
# Make bread out of stone(s) to relieve his own hunger
# Free himself from a pinnacle by jumping and relying on angels to break his fall

Thanks to Copy and paste,

Bill

[Zerbie]

Ahhh yes. Thanks.

As I recall, Jesus' response to one of those things was that one should not tempt God. That sounds to me like saying it is tempting God to call upon his miracles as a demonstration, as a test, as a kind of 'party trick.'

Not saying that's my position on the topic, but I think that might be one viable 'answer' to Rick's question.

If I may, are you wanting to direct this discussion in a certain direction, Rick?

[wmanion]

Ahhh yes. Thanks.

As I recall, Jesus' response to one of those things was that one should not tempt God. That sounds to me like saying it is tempting God to call upon his miracles as a demonstration, as a test, as a kind of 'party trick.'

Not saying that's my position on the topic, but I think that might be one viable 'answer' to Rick's question.

If I may, are you wanting to direct this discussion in a certain direction, Rick?

Zerbie, basically I agree, so what I was saying is that we should first determine whether this would be a right or wrong thing to do. When Jesus appeared to all the individuals in the scripture, I do not recall any of them asking him to appear. He chose himself to appear.

Bill

[Emproph]

When Jesus appeared to all the individuals in the scripture, I do not recall any of them asking him to appear. He chose himself to appear.
To expound on that notion..

To believe that Jesus could appear, would be to believe in Jesus, which presumes that Jesus is God and would know best what to ask.

So what question would Jesus ask?

[Rick336]

If I may, are you wanting to direct this discussion in a certain direction, Rick?

Here's what I want. I want Jesus to appear to me in my kitchen tonight. According to the Bible he's done it before so I know it's okay for him to do it. Jesus says that all we need to do is ask him to do anything at all and he will. So I'll be waiting in my kitchen tonight for Jesus to appear.

Now, I have to go wash dishes.


Rick

[Eugene]

Jesus clearly states in John 14 that we can ask him "anything" and he will do it.

John 14:13 - “You can ask for anything in my name, and I will do it, so that the Son can bring glory to the Father. Yes, ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it!”

So if we all got together, held hands and prayed for Jesus to physically materialize before our eyes, would it happen? We know that he can do it because he did it 2,000 years ago as Paul described in Corinthians 1.


Here's what I want. I want Jesus to appear to me in my kitchen tonight. According to the Bible he's done it before so I know it's okay for him to do it. Jesus says that all we need to do is ask him to do anything at all and he will. So I'll be waiting in my kitchen tonight for Jesus to appear.


Well, seeing that Jesus (whose name is above every name, according to the Bible) isn't a slave to the whims of a skeptic, good luck with that.

I must assume that from your attitude, the formulaic expression "in Jesus' name" won't get you much from prayer.

And since the Bible already makes plain that according to the will of the Father, Jesus is enthroned at the right hand of God in heaven until the 2nd coming, I don't think muttering "in Jesus' name" would even make Him appear for Billy Graham or Mother Theresa.

If fact, I am instructed that if someone tells me, "Lo, he is here" or "Lo, he is there," I am not to believe it. Because "as lightning shineth from the east to the west ..." But you know the rest, of course.

[Rick336]

Well, seeing that Jesus (whose name is above every name, according to the Bible) isn't a slave to the whims of a skeptic, good luck with that.

Thanks.

Well, I was up until 3:00 AM and he was a no-show. So apparently when Jesus said in John 14 that we can ask him anything and he will do it, he didn't really mean it.

Or maybe he used to appear to people but decided to stop doing it for some reason. Maybe it was scaring people when he would suddenly pop in out of nowhere. If that's the case, then John 14 should have said:

“You can ask for anything in my name, and I will do it. Except don't ask me to physically appear before you because that scares people so I stopped doing it."

Rick

[Zerbie]

Thanks.

Well, I was up until 3:00 AM and he was a no-show. So apparently when Jesus said in John 14 that we can ask him anything and he will do it, he didn't really mean it.

Or maybe he used to appear to people but decided to stop doing it for some reason. Maybe it was scaring people when he would suddenly pop in out of nowhere. If that's the case, then John 14 should have said:

“You can ask for anything in my name, and I will do it. Except don't ask me to physically appear before you because that scares people so I stopped doing it."

Rick
:lol::lol::p

Darn, I was starting to get high hopes for divine aid in keeping the kitchen clean. Looks like it's all up to me, still. :p

[Eugene]

Well, I've heard that Benny Hinn was having luck with Jesus appearing onstage with him a few years back. Maybe you should watch TBN to see how it's done.

[labguy22]

Hey Rick,
I certainly do not pretend to be a Biblical scholar, but I believe the reason for Jesus leaving in the first place was so he could send the spirit of God to us, the Great Comfortor. Jesus as an indivudual could only be in one place at one time, whereas the spirit could be anywhere, anytime.
But Jesus appeared to Paul and many others afterwards, so I'm not quite sure why he chose not to accept your invitation to the kitchen.
I appreciate that you even asked the question. There are so many contradictions in the Bible and it has been translated and transliterated so many times, I have difficulty taking it at face value. I know many believe it to be the literal word of God; I tend to disagree with that. As Zerbie said earlier, he's in you; at least it's a good place to start looking.

[Emproph]

Not sure how it fits in, but for what it's worth...

Jesus Christ Superstar (1973) The Temple & Lepers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61TwQwgGi8Y)

61TwQwgGi8Y

[Emproph]

For the record, I posted this earlier on my blog.

Jesus Christ Superstar (1973) Superstar (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YPDXmEsQtQ)

9YPDXmEsQtQ

To wax philosophical for a moment.

The Cross is symbolic of the “cross” between spirit and matter. As in the cross between our immortal spirit with matter.

The Crucifixion is symbolic of the death of that spiritual awareness, due to the physical demands of life in our bodies.

The resurrection is symbolic of our ability to overcome those physical demands and regain our spiritual awareness of immortality.

The Earth is a tourist trap.
My thought was that it doesn't matter if proof of Jesus exists or not. It's the proof of the message that matters.

Maybe Jesus doesn't show up because we need to understand that it's not about him.

We all have to "take up our cross" between our spirit and the "matter" we are part of (our bodies).

We need to learn to provide our own miracles.

[kara speltz]

For the record, I posted this earlier on my blog.


My thought was that it doesn't matter if proof of Jesus exists or not. It's the proof of the message that matters.

Maybe Jesus doesn't show up because we need to understand that it's not about him.

We all have to "take up our cross" between our spirit and the "matter" we are part of (our bodies).

We need to learn to provide our own miracles.

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!

Jesus, Gandhi, King, the message is still the same. This is our work, this is our time. We MUST become the change we seek.

Kara