Does Rick Warren ignore Jesus?

[Rick336]

I don't speak for Soulforce. My opinions are my own. But I have read the Bible and I'm finding that a large number of people claiming to be followers of Jesus are not following his teachings at all. In fact, they have a total lack of respect for Jesus' advice.

Rick Warren, the pastor of Saddleback church in Lake Forest, California believes the Bible is God's word. On the website for the church it says this:

"ABOUT THE BIBLE
The Bible is God´s word to all men. It was written by human authors, under the supernatural guidance of the Holy Spirit. It is the supreme source of truth for Christian beliefs and living. Because it is inspired by God, it is truth without any mixture of error."

Remember, Saddleback Church says the Bible is the TRUTH without any mixture of error.

The website also says this about the Bible: "The Bible is God’s perfect guidebook for living." And it says this about Jesus: "Jesus is God showing himself to us."

So basically Saddleback Church under the leadership of Rick Warren believes without a doubt that the Bible is the absolute truth from God, a guidebook for living and that Jesus is God speaking to us. It's right there on the website.

But, check out what Jesus says in Luke 18:

Luke 18:18 - Once a religious leader asked Jesus this question: “Good Teacher, what should I do to inherit eternal life?”
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus asked him. “Only God is truly good. But to answer your question, you know the commandments: ‘You must not commit adultery. You must not murder. You must not steal. You must not testify falsely. Honor your father and mother.”
The man replied, “I’ve obeyed all these commandments since I was young.”
When Jesus heard his answer, he said, “There is still one thing you haven’t done. Sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

By reading the above words from Jesus, it is perfectly clear what he says here. Jesus says to sell ALL of your possessions and follow him. He doesn't say to sell some of your possessions. He doesn't say to sell half of your possessions. He says ALL of your possessions. ALL means EVERYTHING.

Now, remember that Rick Warren believes that the Bible is the infallible word of God and that Jesus is God speaking to mankind. So when Jesus says to "sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor," this must mean that Rick Warren and all the members of Saddleback church own absolutely no material possessions at all. Rick Warren and the members of Saddleback can't own a personal computer or a DVD player or a washing machine or a camcorder or a TV or a boat or even drive a car to church. Because if they dare own any of these things, they are completely ignoring Jesus.

Can a church state on it's website that God speaks to them through Jesus, and then completely ignore Jesus' words? Wouldn't this make them hypocrites in the eyes of Jesus? Aren't they totally ignoring what God is telling them? In Luke 18, Jesus couldn't have been more clear about this. And Rick Warren himself says that the Bible is "the perfect guidebook for living".

Has Rick Warren and Saddleback Church followed "the perfect guidebook for living" and sold all of their possessions and given the money to the poor? I don't know. But I do know that many Christians across California gave a ton of money to help pass an amendment to the California state constitution banning gay marriage. So what did Jesus say about gay marriage?

Nothing.


Here's the website for Saddleback Church. Check it out for yourself:
http://saddleback.com/flash/believe.html

Rick

[Zerbie]

But I do know that they gave a ton of money to help pass an amendment to the California state constitution banning gay marriage.
)

Wait a minute - this CHURCH donated money to a political campaign??

[FoxInSox]

Rick,

I often ask the same questions, not just about Warren, but about others of my faith. In the end, when I get past all my anger and move back into the core beliefs, I come back to the fact that he is doing the best he can with what he has at the moment.

And that very grown up mature place lasts for about three minutes... ;)

I live in Dallas. I grew up in Houston. Although both cities do have a large liberal community and a large GLBT community, they are still in Texas. My family of origin is very conservative evangelical...I attended a Southern Baptist youth group, and then went to college in deep east Texas.

Amid all this, there is definitely the politically conservative stuff, but there's also this element of cultural Christian morality. But that's the thing...its morality, not grace, not mercy, not faith, not spirituality. I fully bought into that culture, beleiving that if I could really do that morality well, my parents and God would then eally love me, and I'd be absolved of my shame. Instead, the efforts ate away at my soul.

I've talked at length with a dear friend and mentor who also really bought into the fundamentalism of Christianity. She went to a Baptist seminary here in Texas, led youth groups in the same way mine was led, and so on. She bought into it the same way I did for her own personal reasons, and she's been breaking free of it as well.

We talk about the very question you bring up. I don't know...I remember in high school and college - at my most fundie - wondering why we let stuff like women not wearing jewelry or make-up or styled hair be considered "cultural" to the Corinthians (I think?), but stuff like a woman speaking in church was serious sacrilidge.

My friend has taken to calling fundies "literalists." Because, that's what they want to do - be very literal about things. Plus, that term doesn't have the negative connotations of "fundamentalism." It also brings to the light that they aren't applying the rules across the board.

For example, most of the 4 (?) 6 (?) scriptures about homosexuality are in the OT. Well, so are rules about wearing linen and wool, or eating pork and shellfish, and women spending one particular week of the month outside of the community. But, it's easy for Christians to write that off because it's OT, you know? So, they go to the one passage in Romans. They take that one very literally, but most evangelicals allow for cultural differences on women's hair and makeup. And then, some allow for cultural differences on a woman's role in church. Most allow for hyperbole when Jesus talks about selling everything to follow him or hate one's family in order to love him.

I don't know. I don't get it. More than once, in my anger and frustration, I've come very close to denying my faith. At my core, though, I do trust/love/follow Jesus, even if many of his followers suck. Of course, many of them (especially in my regional area) think I totally suck.

It's like...they are are as attached to their rules/morality as evidence of their faith or their faith acted out I am my values about non-violence, kindness, mercy, etc. as evidence of my faith acted out.

So...again...I don't know. My mentors tell me to find a way to let the anger go, be kind, and stop judging. It's pretty hard. I'd much rather play I'm right, you know?

[FoxInSox]

Zerbie,

Not sure about Saddleback, but I thought a big chunk of Yes-on-8 funds came from the Mormans as well.

~Michelle

[Rick336]

Wait a minute - this CHURCH donated money to a political campaign??

Zerbie,

I made a correction in my original post since it made it appear that the church itself donated money to Prop 8. I don't have any evidence that is the case.

However, chances are many church members donated money to the campaign. And Rick Warren of Saddleback Church came out publicly in an email to his congregation telling them to Vote Yes on 8. This is from Baptist Press on October 27th:

Rick Warren endorses Prop 8 Calif. marriage amendment

Posted on Oct 27, 2008 | by Michael Foust

LAKE FOREST, Calif. (BP)--Pastor Rick Warren has publicly endorsed a proposed California constitutional marriage amendment, giving supporters a boost in what is expected to be a close vote Nov. 4.

The pastor of Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, Calif. -- who hosted a presidential forum with both major candidates in August -- made the endorsement of Proposition 8 in an Oct. 23 e-mail to church members. His statement comes as ProtectMarriage.com, the main organization supporting Prop 8, tries to raise enough money to purchase additional television ads and fight off a well-funded final push by opponents.


Here's the entire article --->http://www.bpnews.net/BPnews.asp?ID=29209




Rick

[Rick336]

I don't know...I remember in high school and college - at my most fundie - wondering why we let stuff like women not wearing jewelry or make-up or styled hair be considered "cultural" to the Corinthians (I think?), but stuff like a woman speaking in church was serious sacrilidge.

Fox. Great post.

Here's what the Bible says about women in church. And this is from the New Testament:

Corinthians 14:34-35 ( New T. )Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

I still believe that there is some good things that comes from religion; charities, compassion, and love. But it's scripture verses like the one above that has resulted in a growing number of people in America who are leaving the church. The reason is simple. Ancient beliefs don't fit twenty-first century living. Even Rick Warren and Saddleback church find it impossible to live by their own "perfect guide for living." That's because it is not a perfect guide for living at all.

If a "guide for living" causes you to hate your fellow man, condemn those who don't worship as you do, and demands that women be submissive and not speak, then maybe it's time to start looking for a new guide.

Rick

[antiochian]

Churches have about as much right to tell their members how to vote as they do to tell them what color to paint their houses.

Before the '04 election, I asked a devout and conservative priest what he thought about my choice of candidate. He simply told me to vote my conscience, and we moved on to another subject. That made me respect him all the more.

[FoxInSox]

Rick,

Yes, that is the scripture I was referencing. It's often used to keep those of us with vaginas in our place.

There are others in Ephesians about being submissive to husbands. When I was in high school, I remember learning that this meant women and girls were always under the authority of a man; first our fathers, then out husbands. If neither were available, we must seek out supervision from a pastor or elder. They went so far as to say this meant women should stay in abuse (which isn't explicitly stated as a reason for divorce). I also learned that I should sin if requested to do so by my father, husband, or pastor. This teaching was closely associated with sex as well. If a husband wanted it, a wife gave it. End of story.

(Yet, somehow, we were allowed to cut our hair, wear pretty clothes, wear jewelry, and wear makeup, despite passages in Corinthians telling women to be humble in dress, without adornment, to let our souls be our prettiness. Ironically, the more we looked like Gap ads, the more acceptable we were. See the picking and chooseing? Also, none of us women were banned from the community once a month, nor were men disallowed from sitting on furniture we had sat on during that time.)

This fit really well with my family's personal culture/dysfunction. Dad was Large, In Charge, and ANGRY. Mom excused him. I toed the line and became whatever necessary to appease them.

Imagine the problems this created when I married, and a physical problem made sex very painful. I lied about it to by sweet husband who kept asking if it hurt. I just sucked it up, "did my duty" for about 6 months. The truth eventually came out, but accurate dx and tx took almost 4 years. We've been married 6 years, and the residual effects of that trauma remain. I'm grateful, though, for the recovery and healing that has occurred. We are even trying for a baby.

I think this sexual trauma and repression of my soul because of my gentlia and the pain, shame, and emotional duress that resulted is another BIG reason I resonate so much with the struggle for equality/equity of GLBT people.

[nervezapper]

I don't know. I don't get it. More than once, in my anger and frustration, I've come very close to denying my faith. At my core, though, I do trust/love/follow Jesus, even if many of his followers suck. Of course, many of them (especially in my regional area) think I totally suck.



I so totally agree with you!! I was sitting in a church service in Ukraine and decided I would never go back to the Baptist church. I am now with a spiritual community that loves all and accepts all, just like Jesus did. Yet, the fundies are saying we are going to hell.



I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ.–Gandhi

and

Jesus, protect me from your followers!

[Petrese]

Lets just say for a minute that the Bible was written by men who were supernaturally led by God. Since then have all the translators also been guided to correctly interpret and translate the ancient texts into modern day languages and meaning? I do know that the bible says what my signature here says. Those two verses say nothing about the bible, but they say to trust in God. I have a feeling that is because to trust in something man has physically written is to trust that they did it perfectly, to trust in man, not God. I choose to trust in God and that leads me to show grace to others when I do what I am supposed to. It also helps me to interpret what is said in the bible for my own well being. God gave man common sense and the ability to reason, for that the bible can be read in modern day and the message stays the same, if people use the sense God gave them: love others as you would love yourself.

[FoxInSox]

"Since then have all the translators also been guided to correctly interpret and translate the ancient texts into modern day languages and meaning? "

I don't think so...I mean, wouldn't that mean Falwell and Phelps are inspired?

I think our/their cultural bias gets thrown onto the text when it's translated from language to language...not to mention interpreted...

[BruceChris]

Most of the members of my church are lesbians, and not shy about it. If Rck Warren, or anyone else came into our church and said:

Corinthians 14:34-35 ( New T. )Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

Well, I would not want to be in their shoes.

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[Unmasked]

I'd love to watch that, we could put it up on youtube. :D

I'm getting to the point where I can't really talk to Christians anymore, especially conservative ones. I am a Christian in the same way a Buddhist is a follower of Buddha. Being an Arian automatically disqualifies you.

[Rick336]

Most of the members of my church are lesbians, and not shy about it. If Rick Warren, or anyone else came into our church and said:

Corinthians 14:34-35 ( New T. )Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

Well, I would not want to be in their shoes.

Me either. I've heard it said that the New Testament supersedes the Old Testament. But if that's the case, then Christian women are supposed to keep their mouths shut in church because the above scripture is from the New Testament. But let's go to Rick Warren's church this Sunday and see if there are any women who follow this rule. If there's women talking, then it's clear that they ignore their "perfect guidebook for living."

Rick Warren's own website tells people that "the Bible is God's perfect guidebook for living," and then they ignore the guidebook's rules.

If Rick Warren was honest with the visitors to his website, here's what it should say:

ABOUT THE BIBLE:
The Bible is God's perfect guidebook for living. But don't worry, you can pick and chose the words of Jesus that best suits you. Any words of Jesus that you don't like, feel free to just ignore them. However, if there's any that you can use against homosexuals, it's perfectly okay to do that. If anybody questions you about being hypocritical, claim that they are attacking Christianity. That usually works."


Rick

[BruceChris]

But even I am aware that women were largely left out of the Bible, that many of the books were copied or translated by men who wanted to put their own spin on things, and that many works were simply left out of the Canon.

As a matter of fact, the Council of Rome, in 382 A.D. were the original editors of the Bible, and made the decisions as to what went into the Canon, the Bible, and which works were simply left out.

Namaste', Bruce Chris

[FoxInSox]

In the NT, though, there are mentions of deaconessess. Many churches in my area don't even want to allow that....basedon the "keeping silent" passage....

[Unmasked]

It's been established that Paul didn't really write the Timothy letters, and that his command concerning women was only intended to apply to women who were being loud and disruptive. Granted, it's sexist to assume that women are the only ones doing this.

However, if we are going to be literalists in one thing, we should be literalists always. The fact that most scholars agree that Paul had nothing to do with some of these letters that are the foundation of Pauline "Christianity" shows that the scriptures are corrupted. The self-validation is also a little sketchy. If I wrote a book and said that everything in it was absolutely true and God-breathed, very few people would take me seriously.

They say we can't pick and choose, but they do it, and why shouldn't we? Faith should be a salad bar. Salad bars are awesome. Variety is the spice of life. If you order a bowl of mixed greens, and they cover it in croutans, there's a problem. Maybe you wanted them, maybe not. But if you make your own and choose not to add them, the salad is not fundamentally different. If you don't like it and don't need it, don't bother with it. Nothing about Christianity is fundamentally changed by accepting gays or treating women like equals. If it's a choice between cheeses, we have bigger things to be concerned about. If it's a choice between cheese and chocolate, then we may have to step in.

[Rick336]

But even I am aware that women were largely left out of the Bible, that many of the books were copied or translated by men who wanted to put their own spin on things, and that many works were simply left out of the Canon.

As a matter of fact, the Council of Rome, in 382 A.D. were the original editors of the Bible, and made the decisions as to what went into the Canon, the Bible, and which works were simply left out.

Namaste', Bruce Chris

Yes. That is exactly what happened. And most theological scholars agree that no words were written about Jesus until at least 30 years after his death, except for Paul's letters. But Paul never mentions Mary or Joseph or the virgin birth, or any of Jesus' miracles, or King Herod or John the Baptist or anything Jesus said while he was on earth. In fact, Paul never mentions Jesus' ministry at all.

This means that what Jesus said was not recorded until thirty years after Jesus died. Not one word. Then, around 70 AD they started writing the story of Jesus. Could they really remember exactly what Jesus said word for word after thirty years?

Harvey Milk died thirty years ago. We know a lot of what Harvey said because in 1978 we had video cameras and tape recorders and lots of news reporters. But think about it. If not one single person ever recorded anything Harvey Milk said in 1978 and then decided to start writing it down now, how accurate would it be?

Rick