Let's protect Marriage!

[keltic63]

I found this on a tag surf, but it's at towleroad (http://www.towleroad.com/2008/11/protect-marriag.html) too:

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[Unmasked]

Yes! This is exactly what is wrong with that argument. If they want it all-or-nothing in their faith, they should be all-or-nothing in all things.

[Jennifer5]

We wouldn't even be having the gay marriage discussion if the prop 8 people had the ability to put themselves in others shoes. They wouldn't feel the same way if we were banning their marriages.

[sjbouza]

This is what needs to happen. Seriously, if they want to truly "protect marriage" then they need to outlaw divorce. It is in fact against "gods law". There should only be one reason for divorce and that is adultery. If your spouse didn't commit adultery then you should be bound by law to make it work. This excuse that "we just fell out of love" won't work anymore.

Furthermore, how about outlawing living together before you are married as well as pre-marital sex. This would stop the birth of so many unwanted babies as well as the need for so many abortions. If you get pregnant before you are married you must be forced to have the baby, it put up for adoption and then you will be jailed.

The line goes in all directions. You can't just pick and choose what to follow in the Bible. You follow it all or you don't. People think they can just make excuses for divorce. My aunt and recently found out my father are among these people. They say that that part of the Bible doesn't really mean that for some reason or another. I was set aback at that comment. They can find a justification for thier sin of adultery, but when the Bible "condemns" homosexuality it MUST be taken literally with no other possible interpretation.

WOW!!! I am really getting tired of this whole issue. What needs to happen is that the word "marriage" be taken out of legal doctrine. Everyone will have civil unions recognized by the state and federal government. If you want a "marriage" then you can go to a church and have the ceremony, that is what a marriage is anyway. A marriage is nothing more than the ceremony of the union of two people. The legal portion of it should be nothing more than a federal civil union. That would take care of the whole thing. The radical christians can keep their "marriage ceremony". If a church wants to perform "marriage ceremonies" for same sex couple then that is their right. No religion or church will be bound to perform a ceremony that they don't want to, just like they do now. They can deny to marry a hetero couple if they so choose and the couple has no recourse.

The radical christians just need to get over it and let things be. I swear, they just want everything their way. Everything must fit into the same little box that they put God into. Life and God are bigger than all of us, who are we to put limits on Him? Some christians of today seem to think that they can. I fear for them when they come to see God. What will He have to say to them? "What you have done to the least of these, you have done to me!" Wow, what a statement to hear when you think you know everything there is to know about the Bible and what it has to teach and say.

Peace,
Scott

[Jennifer5]

Scott, let's remember that we can't stoop to their level.

...and please correct if I just read your response incorrectly, were you joking?

Being a kid of divorce, the idea of out-lawing it is enough to terrify me. I don't even want to think about what my life might be like right now if my parents were still together.

Also the thing about forcing people to be married before they have kids... really don't agree.

I think that requiring people to stay married, while scary, would put things in perspective though.

[Alecto]

Petitions like this aren't started because ANYONE has any expectation that they could ever pass. In that regard, it's really not stooping. Google "flying spaghetti monster" for another great example (I know I, for one, have been touched by his noodly appendage). More and more, the process is being used not to affect policy change directly, but to prove a point.

[sjbouza]

Scott, let's remember that we can't stoop to their level.

...and please correct if I just read your response incorrectly, were you joking?

Being a kid of divorce, the idea of out-lawing it is enough to terrify me. I don't even want to think about what my life might be like right now if my parents were still together.

Also the thing about forcing people to be married before they have kids... really don't agree.

I think that requiring people to stay married, while scary, would put things in perspective though.


Jennifer,

Yes, it was a sarcastic joke. It comes from the frustration of seeing "our" lives being thrown onto a trash heap. Not being looked at as a human being. Being told that I can get married, just not to someone that I love. I am not stooping to their level, I am saying what needs to be said.

I too am a child of divorce, as well as my partner. I understand your feeling of having your parents being "forced" to stay together. I would have hated it if mine had stayed together. It would have been horrible for everyone. But the other side needs to see how stupid their claim of wanting to "protect the sanctity of marriage" is. They don't want to protect anything. What they want to do is force their religious beliefs upon everyone. They need to understand that they are placing their limited knowledge of God right back into His face. For how many years did Jerry Falwell himself preach against allowing black to have civil rights? He based his argument upon scripture and his LIMITED KNOWLEDGE of it. They are doing the same thing to us. They place God in this little box and say, "here He is believe what I say cuz I have God right here."

I just cannot understand why some christians can just pick and choose how to interpretate the Bible as long as it fits their own views. That is not what the Bible is about. It is to show us how to love one anther and gives us some moral grounding. The argument that this country was founded on christian principals is just crap. The "moral principals" that this country was founded on can be found in most every religion out there, even in pagan religions.

Please don't take this post as yelling at you Jennifer. That is not my intent at all. As I said it is just the product of frustration. I agree with you 100%. This posting as well as the previous one is nothing more than getting the "pissed off f@g" out of my system right now.

Peace to all,
Scott

[Jennifer5]

Jennifer,

Yes, it was a sarcastic joke. It comes from the frustration of seeing "our" lives being thrown onto a trash heap. Not being looked at as a human being. Being told that I can get married, just not to someone that I love. I am not stooping to their level, I am saying what needs to be said.

I too am a child of divorce, as well as my partner. I understand your feeling of having your parents being "forced" to stay together. I would have hated it if mine had stayed together. It would have been horrible for everyone. But the other side needs to see how stupid their claim of wanting to "protect the sanctity of marriage" is. They don't want to protect anything. What they want to do is force their religious beliefs upon everyone. They need to understand that they are placing their limited knowledge of God right back into His face. For how many years did Jerry Falwell himself preach against allowing black to have civil rights? He based his argument upon scripture and his LIMITED KNOWLEDGE of it. They are doing the same thing to us. They place God in this little box and say, "here He is believe what I say cuz I have God right here."

I just cannot understand why some christians can just pick and choose how to interpretate the Bible as long as it fits their own views. That is not what the Bible is about. It is to show us how to love one anther and gives us some moral grounding. The argument that this country was founded on christian principals is just crap. The "moral principals" that this country was founded on can be found in most every religion out there, even in pagan religions.

Please don't take this post as yelling at you Jennifer. That is not my intent at all. As I said it is just the product of frustration. I agree with you 100%. This posting as well as the previous one is nothing more than getting the "pissed off f@g" out of my system right now.

Peace to all,
Scott

No worries, I just hadn't understand your first post. :love:

[Rick336]

Please don't take this post as yelling at you Jennifer. That is not my intent at all. As I said it is just the product of frustration. I agree with you 100%. This posting as well as the previous one is nothing more than getting the "pissed off f@g" out of my system right now.

Scott. You have every reason to be pissed off. We all do. And I'm not sure you need to get it out of your system. I've been involved in gays rights off and on for over thirty years now and even though we've made progress, I'm still seeing the same old bullcrap from these folks that I was seeing three decades ago. These so called "Christians" will lie in a heartbeat. And their hypocrisy is so blatant it's absurd. It's beyond my comprehension that they continue to get away with this crap.

I'm so pissed off that all my anger and energy is going into my computer keyboard. I keep posting in this and other forums but it doesn't do a damn bit of good because the anger won't go away.

And I am tired of being nice all the damn time. I hear some leaders of the community say, "We shouldn't be disrespectful" or something like that. But I'm tired of being so respectful of our opponents when they have absolutely no respect for us.

Maybe I'll eventually gain a cooler head and be more rational. But one thing is for sure. They will NOT win this. And the harder they push us, the harder we'll push back.

Rick

[Jennifer5]

Everyone has the right to be angry and upset about this.

When I said, "don't stoop to their level", I don't think my point was understood. I didn't mean, don't be upset, there is nothing wrong with that. I really just meant, don't stoop to their level... don't hate people for their lack of knowledge. Don't choose violence. We are still fighting for our civil rights and we will win.

Have faith! We elected Obama, didn't we?! We can and we will do this too. :love:

[Unmasked]

Though we do have the right, we also have the responsibility to be civil. Some of us used to be the enemy. Some of our friends and family are still over there.

Most of them are just scared of what Christians will do to them if they disagree. If we can eliminate fear and foster mutual understanding, we can do this.

[Gennee]

I have been married for 28 years. My wife and I still love each other and respect one another as individuals. I believe that a successful marriage should be lived. There's a 50% divorce rate in this country and its about the same among professing Christians.

Forcing two unhappy people to stay married does no good (even if it is for the children's sake). They can see right through that facade. Marriage is something that involves work and perserverance and sacrifice. The procreation logic presented doesn't always apply because therey are married couples who cannot produce children (my wife included).

Denying someone else their rights, in my mind, is wrong; DEAD WRONG. I'm very sensitive to this because families were ripped apart during slavery without regard to the welfare of the family or children. To me, some of the arguments presented by those who want to protect marriage don't hold water.

Gennee

[Rick336]

I'm very sensitive to this because families were ripped apart during slavery without regard to the welfare of the family or children. To me, some of the arguments presented by those who want to protect marriage don't hold water.

Gennee

Great point Gennee. This issue is really about families. But apparently the idea of "family values" is only for a select group.

Rick

[Unmasked]

Absolutely. Their families are as important as ours. I would never want to deny anybody the right to end their marriage, because the best thing my mother ever did for me was divorce her second husband. My father...well, I know now that it was best that they split up. They're better friends than lovers. I honestly would like to see people stop jumping into relationships. There are a few couples at my school that met last year, dated for a short time, got engaged, and then got married over summer vacation. They're adorable together, and I hope they last, but if they do, they'll be one out of one hundred whirlwind relationships that straightened out and went the distance. Marriage isn't an extension of dating.

I have this joke I make, it goes like this; "I've been thinking about getting a tattoo, but I can't decide on what I want. It's a serious decision, getting a tattoo. It's not like marriage, where you can dump the girl if you don't like her anymore. This is for life."

I tell it, one because I always think a design would be cool, and then I realized that I wouldn't want to have the Dark Mark on my arm when I'm 30, and it reflects how we treat marriage. You can get a tattoo removed, for a fair bit of cash, and a lot of pain. The same is true of a marriage. You lose half your stuff, but there is a greater pain. My grandmother couldn't deal with my grandfather, he was bi-polar and she was young. He couldn't deal without her. He ended his life with a double-barreled shotgun.

A quote from my favorite movie of this particular week goes like this, "Intimacy is like laying your weiner on a table and having somebody say 'Hey. That looks like a penis. Only smaller!"

I think that people really need to examine themselves and each other, I think they should lay out all their problems and insecurities beforehand, be upfront about it. When they commit to each other, they should really commit to each other, every problem, every bad habit. I think every couple should be required to make a list of five things they absolutely detest about their partner. I promise every person I become intimate with a rose garden. It's going to be beautiful, but there are going to be thorns, you might not like the smell, and every now and then a blossom will die. I will let you down, I will piss you off, I will hurt you, but I will try my damndest to make those times rare, and to appease you with expensive chocolate and fresh cut flowers when I do.

I wish that everybody came to the altar with raw honesty. If we became truly intimate and loved the real person inside our partner, I don't know if the divorce rate would go down, but I know that people would wait a little longer to get married, and that might give them the chance their marriage deserves.

[FoxInSox]

Love it!

Mostly...

I'm not all into debate and logic and what-not...but is it a logical error to state that one can take words from a website and apply it to our own argument, then expect the opposition to be stumped?

I mean...if that's logical, then couldn't we also use that to support something awful (domestic violence) or something rediculous (um...the necessity of wearing weddings bands?)?

I know that the efficacy of the logic isn't really the point...just something that ran through my mind.

And...what's with all the white people? (Not sure what my deal is lately, but I've been noticing the ethnocentrism of white people). A few people seemed as if they could be hispanic, but...pretty pasty group. How can we push for equality and equity if we are participating in the subtle promotion of the ethnic supremacy of white people?

Am I just in a snippy, critical mood?

[Alecto]

I don't think you're just snippy, but I also don't think it's a new problem. The "gay movement" has, at best, failed to reach out to other groups. At worst they've been overtly racist, biphobic, and / or transphobic. Prop 8 should be a wake up call to that effect, but mostly I'm just seeing it bring out the veiled -isms, and make them a lot less veiled and a lot more ugly.

[Unmasked]

A lot of us have some buried insecurities. I used to feel really uncomfortable around black people, because I've had bad experiences with them. I think some of us have had bad experiences, or have heard horror stories that make us a little scared of others. But as we learn how wonderful people can be, we open up, and our own experience helps us to understand those that aren't as accepting. They're not bad people, they just need to learn.

[Unmasked]

The thing is, it's not logical. Banning divorce would be a bad thing, as would putting up with domestic violence. But we're juxtaposing them to show that marriage would be no more or less sacred if gay people were allowed to marry. Statistically speaking, the divorce rate is much lower in nations that allow same-sex marriage. Correlation is not causation, but it kind of shoots their argument down.

[pnggrad79]

I think prohibiting divorce would really rankle the Religious Right. That would strip them of their right to choose whether to stay married or not. It's a violation of their right to choose. Hmmm, why do they get all the rights and we don't have the simple choice to marry much less divorce....
Methinks they protesteth too much.:rolleyes:

[Matt Algren]

Oh, I disagree, png. I think that's where they're headed next. It'll never happen, but in their dream world, everybody would be Baptist, all marriages would be final, and all women would wear frumpy flower print dresses to sit quietly in church.

[Jester25]

Forcing two unhappy people to stay married does no good (even if it is for the children's sake). They can see right through that facade.

I can easily testify to that. I am a survivor of a very neglectful father, whom my mother fortunately divorced a few years ago. For years, I watched my father and mother yell at each other. I knew they weren't happy, but I never wanted my family to split up. To top all that off, my father is transgender and an alcoholic. His decisions really hurt everyone in my family; it's still hard to talk about it today.

Denying someone else their rights, in my mind, is wrong; DEAD WRONG. I'm very sensitive to this because families were ripped apart during slavery without regard to the welfare of the family or children.[/quote]

It is and always will be wrong, Gennee. Families are being ripped apart by this now - maybe not literally, but mentally and emotionally. Those gays forced into unhappy straight marriages can easily attest to that.

[Unmasked]

Oh, I disagree, png. I think that's where they're headed next. It'll never happen, but in their dream world, everybody would be Baptist, all marriages would be final, and all women would wear frumpy flower print dresses to sit quietly in church.

Ewwww! I can't even look at you now. That's scary. And it reminds me of a list my roomie pulled up about demon possession. I just found the list and found out that it was Landover Baptist that put it out, and not a real church, but it made me laugh.

http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=125

[CaptainSnoopy]

Oh, I disagree, png. I think that's where they're headed next. It'll never happen, but in their dream world, everybody would be Baptist, all marriages would be final, and all women would wear frumpy flower print dresses to sit quietly in church.

Frankly, I think Dobson and company WOULD be in favor of a ban on divorce. I hear some of them rail about their disagreement of no fault divorce. Sigh.... I know two battered wives who are getting no support from their churches because of the warped views they have on marriage.

[CaptainSnoopy]

Everyone has the right to be angry and upset about this.

When I said, "don't stoop to their level", I don't think my point was understood. I didn't mean, don't be upset, there is nothing wrong with that. I really just meant, don't stoop to their level... don't hate people for their lack of knowledge. Don't choose violence. We are still fighting for our civil rights and we will win.

Have faith! We elected Obama, didn't we?! We can and we will do this too. :love:

Hate begets hate. Well said, Jennifer. My mind never would have been changed by being shouted at or hated...that would only have solidified my views.