Who are we angry at and why?

[Alecto]

I've been hesitant to bring this up, cause I know people are passionate and that this is one of the things many of us will disagree on, but I'm really uncomfortable with the way the mormon church is being targeted. like...I don't necessarily have fuzzy bunny feelings for the church as an institution, and I know it doesn't have any for me, but I guess I'm wondering if there's some better way to address the ills of the institution without appearing to judge individuals. I know some of the protests have included (hopefully visibly so) members OF the church who were themselves dismayed, and I like that, but...especially when we look at how Soulforce operates with other religious institutions, there's something about protesting at the physical worship space that doesn't sit right with me.

And, yes, I totally understand WHY they're being targeted, but ultimately I'm a lot more indignant that these rights were put up for popular vote than I am offended by fundraising campaigns.

[sauu4equality]

I've been hesitant to bring this up, cause I know people are passionate and that this is one of the things many of us will disagree on, but I'm really uncomfortable with the way the mormon church is being targeted. like...I don't necessarily have fuzzy bunny feelings for the church as an institution, and I know it doesn't have any for me, but I guess I'm wondering if there's some better way to address the ills of the institution without appearing to judge individuals. I know some of the protests have included (hopefully visibly so) members OF the church who were themselves dismayed, and I like that, but...especially when we look at how Soulforce operates with other religious institutions, there's something about protesting at the physical worship space that doesn't sit right with me.

And, yes, I totally understand WHY they're being targeted, but ultimately I'm a lot more indignant that these rights were put up for popular vote than I am offended by fundraising campaigns.


While I understand your sympathies, I have to agree with Dan Savage. I saw him talk on Anderson Cooper. The fact is the church attacked gay people. Now they put their hands up and say, "oh we're a church...you can't be mad at us." Sorry, but if you attack a group of people you have to be ready to be attacked back (with peaceful demonstrations and exposures of frivoluous BS). It is cowardly for a big political machine to attack and spread lies about a small minority. This goes so far beyond not agreeing with lifestyle choices. They are lying to people about science and making up all sorts of things that people will never even do a google search on and will take at face value because it came from a trusted source: their church. I understand your feelings. They are social in nature. We always feel that churches are sacred places that are not to be disrespected. This is what allowed the Catholic Church to murder people at will for so many centuries. This is what allowed Brigham Young to order the murder of migrating people seeking a better life in California. But this time, we're not falling for it. This isn't a value issue. It's a hate issue. And we have every right to attempt to expose them. I for one am not singling them out. Every evangelical, catholic, and mormon that believes the BS they do is getting an earfull from me. I am much more concerned that we do not attack those that have been disenfranchised and therefore for so many years had to look at their faith (African Americans). The LDS and other Churches who pushed for Prop 8 have just used their institutions to steal from people with good hearts. We should however try whenever we can to distinguish the institution from the individual members some of who may have even voted no. Beyond that we should be asking all Americans why in a troubling economy a church of all institutions chose to prevent people from loving each other rather than help the poor :mad::confused::'(:pray:.

[Rick336]

While I understand your sympathies, I have to agree with Dan Savage. I saw him talk on Anderson Cooper. The fact is the church attacked gay people. Now they put their hands up and say, "oh we're a church...you can't be mad at us." Sorry, but if you attack a group of people you have to be ready to be attacked back (with peaceful demonstrations and exposures of frivoluous BS). It is cowardly for a big political machine to attack and spread lies about a small minority. This goes so far beyond not agreeing with lifestyle choices. They are lying to people about science and making up all sorts of things that people will never even do a google search on and will take at face value because it came from a trusted source: their church. I understand your feelings. They are social in nature. We always feel that churches are sacred places that are not to be disrespected. This is what allowed the Catholic Church to murder people at will for so many centuries. This is what allowed Brigham Young to order the murder of migrating people seeking a better life in California. But this time, we're not falling for it. This isn't a value issue. It's a hate issue. And we have every right to attempt to expose them. I for one am not singling them out. Every evangelical, catholic, and mormon that believes the BS they do is getting an earfull from me. I am much more concerned that we do not attack those that have been disenfranchised and therefore for so many years had to look at their faith (African Americans). The LDS and other Churches who pushed for Prop 8 have just used their institutions to steal from people with good hearts. We should however try whenever we can to distinguish the institution from the individual members some of who may have even voted no. Beyond that we should be asking all Americans why in a troubling economy a church of all institutions chose to prevent people from loving each other rather than help the poor :mad::confused::'(:pray:.


This is what I love about being a part of this forum. I get to read some great responses to some very good questions.

Very well said sauu4equality! :applause:


Rick

[tdogg]

The churches are a big part of how Prop 8 got onto the ballot in the first place. A lot of money was donated to get the paperwork done and bring paid signature gathers from all over the country into California, paid them top dollar per signature. The petitions were distributed to and through churches in the state, so members of the congregations could sign them and build on the signature base. The movement to get Prop 8 on the ballot was so comprehensive and profound, and it was funded and initiated by organized religious individuals and churches.

Who am I angry at? Right now, pretty much anyone I know or suspect voted Yes on 8. That's who I'm angry at. That includes some family members. That includes many family members (mine and my wife's) and family members of friends, and co-workers, and acquaintances, neighbors, strangers. Yes, I'm angry at the churches - well, not the buildings but organized religion and its victims...um...I mean members. I'm even a little angry at my fellow GLBT family, the ones in the closet, the ones who didn't show up, the ones who aren't going to show up Saturday because they are too busy. I sympathize with those who feel they must remain in the closet, and I understand the risks and difficulties in coming out. But I'm still just a little bit angry at them.

I'm angry that high profile people didn't speak sooner. I'm angry at the No campaigns (and I'm also supportive and proud of the efforts we did put out - hey, we barely lost this one in California). And then I'm angry at the churches again, individual members, who were so ecstatic about Prop 8 passing that they didn't care the campaign was run on lies and fear mongering. They only cared that discrimination was voted in and gays were voted out.

It's still kinda fresh, and I'm still hurt and angry. For me, it stung pretty big.

[Alecto]

I'll admit, yes, I'm worried that We (as a movement) aren't doing enough to differentiate between the institution and the individual (protesting the tabernacle here that may have had little to do with anything going on in the four states passing anti-gay legislation).

But I'm also worried about the simple question: Is this effective? What are the goals of these protests, and are the methods employed meeting those goals? I'm kind of "new" to the activist scene, but these are the questions that really trouble me.

[Rick336]

But I'm also worried about the simple question: Is this effective? What are the goals of these protests, and are the methods employed meeting those goals? I'm kind of "new" to the activist scene, but these are the questions that really trouble me.


I think protests are very effective to any movement. They get people out and active that may otherwise never do so. It moves them to become involved in other areas of the struggle. It's an outlet for anger and frustration that, if kept in, can cause anxiety and depression.

It also has an effect on the targets of the protesters. It let's them see that people will not tolerate being dehumanize and treated with disrespect. Being reprimanded by large groups of people stays in the subconscious. President Johnson was deeply bothered by the anti-Vietnam war demonstrations of the Sixties. He saw large numbers of Americans who disapproved of the decisions of his administration. The protests marches helped to end the war by changing the general population's attitude.

In Birmingham, Alabama during the African American civil rights movement, protesters stood in defiance of police brutality. Police dogs were let lose on the demonstrators and the powerful spray from fire hoses knocked protesters off their feet. But they never ran. They stood firm for their equality. America was shocked to see on the nightly news how the protesters were mistreated by the police and African Americans gained sympathy for their cause.

The Colonists dumped tea into Boston Harbor to show the British that they were not going to take taxation anymore. The protest marches of thousands of women in the early twentieth century resulted in their right to vote. And just last week, the Soulforce Equality Riders were hauled off to jail for standing for freedom.

Protests are the visual part of any movement. The world can see firsthand the human response to inequality and injustice. A protest march is the river that change sails in on.

Rick

[tdogg]

Great post Rick. I totally agree. One of the significant impacts of an organized protest is the number of protesters. Suddenly, it's not a few people hiding in a closet and complaining. It's a huge number, coming out and demanding - not asking - for civil rights. Puts a whole different view on things. It will get on the news, in newspapers, magazine articles and eventually books. More so than writing letters or making phone calls.

That, and it also helps to unify the efforts. When you bring people together in person who are passionate about a common purpose, the impact is much greater than if it appears a few people are struggling. Being together in person, passion is fueled and we all know the wisdom of strength in numbers. It's also a protection (safety in numbers).

[Zerbie]

I empathize with Alecto's questions, and I wonder where and how far this is going to go.

However, I strongly believe that we MUST call out the institutional hypocrisy that pushed so hard for inequality, and did so by using such questionable tactics (pressuring church members to donate?!).

I hope protesters will distinguish between Mormon individuals and the LDS church leadership which engaged in hypocrisy and pressured members.

But even if we all do make that distinction, there will still be some who will choose to see this as gays attacking Mormons, no matter how clear we are. Civil rights battles are ugly by nature, and if we wish to avoid all the ugliness, we will have to sit silently on the sidelines and wait for some magical future day when inequity simply disappears on its own.

Now, we are not attacking Mormons or the church. We are pointing out, clarifying, and telling the world What The LDS Leadership Did. If the LDS wants to define stating facts as an 'attack,' then that says quite a lot more about them.

It is imperative that we call out the churches who used unethical or questionable tactics to immerse themselves in public policy. In the case of the LDS, it needs to be determined: either they are a church and cannot campaign politically, or they are a political action group in which case they are taxable by the IRS. That grey area needs to be cleared up.

We need to keep calling them out. Protesting outside the grounds of a Mormon church is fair game, even if it isn't pretty. I have mixed feelings about it myself, having so many Mormon colleagues and friends. But what was done MUST be kept in the public awareness and this is probably the best way to do it.

[tdogg]

Don't forget the Catholics and evangelicals. They contributed quite a large sum too, especially if you include the $1.2 million donated by Knights of Columbus. Of course protesting outside churches makes the people inside uncomfortable. But I'm really uncomfortable that they would vote my rights away. Fighting for civil rights always makes the opposition squirm.

[Alecto]

I had this whole thing typed out, but I think it was pretty incoherent: bizarre sleep schedule lately. I will get back to you after a nap, though, cause there's thoughts flying around but they're just not cooperating with my fingers and keyboard.

================================================== ============
The biggest part of my concern is the fact that these aren't well organized protests with trained and prepared protestors, and that when we've got this many people this pissed off, do we really expect them to make the differentiations discussed above between an institution and the individuals?
I'm not usually the one to be backing down in any way: I don't believe in pulling punches but I do believe in making sure that they hit the appropriate targets, and to extend the metaphor, preferably no squishy parts on those appropriate targets.

[labguy22]

The Black & Latino community. The powerhouse christian churches. Possibly my own parents and family. I have been pissed off at all these and anyone else who voted yes.
The No on 8 campaign for running such a spineless campaign.
The ignorance of people to believe what they are told without question.
The use of a loving God to promote Hate!!!!!!!

But my anger is only damaging to me:

“ Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. ” ---Buddha

Yes, I will be protesting today; but with a heart of forgiveness. I was going crazy with hatred and rage and had to forgive those who voted yes for my own sanity. I realized that these people are completely blind and deaf, and it is hard to be mad at a blind person for not seeing and a deaf person for not hearing. I must find compassion for them but not allow myself to be carried over the edge with them.
I don't know if protesting will change anyones mind or heart, but it will show unity and hopefully put a face on the issue.

[Zerbie]

================================================== ============
The biggest part of my concern is the fact that these aren't well organized protests with trained and prepared protestors, and that when we've got this many people this pissed off, do we really expect them to make the differentiations discussed above between an institution and the individuals?
I'm not usually the one to be backing down in any way: I don't believe in pulling punches but I do believe in making sure that they hit the appropriate targets, and to extend the metaphor, preferably no squishy parts on those appropriate targets.

I share the very same concern. But we cannot control what other people do.

Yes, it would be great to have training for all protesters. Hey, I'd do it! But unless someone organizes a national training session (with satellites all around the country) we're just going to be spontaneous.

Probably, in the beginning, it needs to be this way. But these protests will need to be ongoing over the coming months, probably years. Once we're dealing with an ongoing situation, then local training sessions will be more likely to start popping up.

Best I can suggest is to copy and circulate the flyer with activist tips, the one I posted here in a separate thread a few days ago. Hand out copies to your fellow protesters if you feel that strongly about it.

3 hours to go. . . .

Meet you all there in collective spirit. God bless. :dove: :love:

[Gennee]

The churches are a big part of how Prop 8 got onto the ballot in the first place. A lot of money was donated to get the paperwork done and bring paid signature gathers from all over the country into California, paid them top dollar per signature. The petitions were distributed to and through churches in the state, so members of the congregations could sign them and build on the signature base. The movement to get Prop 8 on the ballot was so comprehensive and profound, and it was funded and initiated by organized religious individuals and churches.

Who am I angry at? Right now, pretty much anyone I know or suspect voted Yes on 8. That's who I'm angry at. That includes some family members. That includes many family members (mine and my wife's) and family members of friends, and co-workers, and acquaintances, neighbors, strangers. Yes, I'm angry at the churches - well, not the buildings but organized religion and its victims...um...I mean members. I'm even a little angry at my fellow GLBT family, the ones in the closet, the ones who didn't show up, the ones who aren't going to show up Saturday because they are too busy. I sympathize with those who feel they must remain in the closet, and I understand the risks and difficulties in coming out. But I'm still just a little bit angry at them.

I'm angry that high profile people didn't speak sooner. I'm angry at the No campaigns (and I'm also supportive and proud of the efforts we did put out - hey, we barely lost this one in California). And then I'm angry at the churches again, individual members, who were so ecstatic about Prop 8 passing that they didn't care the campaign was run on lies and fear mongering. They only cared that discrimination was voted in and gays were voted out.

It's still kinda fresh, and I'm still hurt and angry. For me, it stung pretty big.


Tdogg, be careful not to vent your anger at everybody because you may hurt someone who is supportive. I said to some others here that though the props lost, allies were gained (witness the close vote in Cal.). What went wrong needs to be assessed and corrected. Then we can move on from there. This will come up again in the future, no doubt.

Gennee

[CaptainSnoopy]

Gennee,

You have some wise words. The Iconoclausts show on IFC turned me into a Dr Maya Angelou addict. That woman has wisdom and beauty with the written and spoken word that stops you dead in your tracks.

She feels anger is a good thing and we need to use that anger to motivate us to dance, speak, write, and do anything we can to stand against injustice...but do not hate. She compares hate to cancer. The hate does nothing to harm the object of the hate, but it does eat at the host.

Living in the midwest I do not know what is true and what is media frenzy ratings based exaggeration...but some of the backlash I am seeing concerns me for I am seeing anger manifested into hate and that will only destroy the one who hates.

[tdogg]

You are absolutely right Gennee. And I don't. I won't even show anger to those I know voted my rights away. I won't be silent either. Today helped. It helped me vent in a positive way, to redirect my energy and focus.

[Daniel]

The Mormon church for starters. As noted in the NYtimes today...

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/15/us/politics/15marriage.html?scp=2&sq=gay%20marriage&st=cse

Mormons Tipped Scale in Ban on Gay Marriage

By JESSE McKINLEY and KIRK JOHNSON
Published: November 14, 2008

SACRAMENTO — Less than two weeks before Election Day, the chief strategist behind a ballot measure outlawing same-sex marriage in California called an emergency meeting here.

“We’re going to lose this campaign if we don’t get more money,” the strategist, Frank Schubert, recalled telling leaders of Protect Marriage, the main group behind the ban.

The campaign issued an urgent appeal, and in a matter of days, it raised more than $5 million, including a $1 million donation from Alan C. Ashton, the grandson of a former president of the Mormon Church. The money allowed the drive to intensify a sharp-elbowed advertising campaign, and support for the measure was catapulted ahead; it ultimately won with 52 percent of the vote.

It's been very interesting reading/hearing the reponses by Mormon's to the protests that have been happening. It's like they expect us to shut up and be nice gays. That's why I love the "No More Nice Gays" signage. It's not about being mean, but about being telling the truth.

A group of American, Mormon's that is, campaigned to take away our civil rights. And they thing we should just sit down and shut up?

And now they are acting like they are the victims in the situation. That's surreal to say the least. No one has taken away their civil liberities. And they were never in danger to begin with. That's the kicker. It's been the poltics of fear!

Their TV ads were lies. Utter lies. And it is time for us to stand up to those lies and speak the truth.

LOUDLY!

There was a time when ACT-UP was in the face of the drug companies. And it's now time for us to be in the face of religeous bigotry, wherever it exists. And you know what? I believe the civil rights movement has taught us a lot. The demonstrations this past week have been peaceful. There is nothing to be gained by meeting hate with hate.

This is one big call to love. A call to look one's neighbor's in the eye, Mormon or not, and put it on the line. There is no better time than NOW.

[tdogg]

I'm also angry at Frank Schubert, campaign manager for yes on 8, lobbyists and largely responsible for getting together the support and donations on 8. My wife is friends with his sister, I've sat in the same house as him. I can't stand this man. His victory speech over Prop 8 urged everyone to now put this issue aside, respect each other's opinions and try to get along.

Um, I don't think so Frank. Oh, what I would say if I ever saw him in person again. He made big bucks off Prop 8. He sat back and watched (and probably enjoyed) the fighting, emotions and heart rendering on both sides over this issue, while lining his pockets with money from organized religion. Some of that money consisted of life savings of ordinary people, buying into the lies and fear that was his campaign for Prop 8. Exploiting minor children against the expressed wishes of the parent's, refusing to remove the lies and deceit in the commercials and articles. It's just disgusting. I feel he is a disgusting person. He should be ashamed of himself, and he owes everyone, including those who donated money a huge apology for exploiting children and lying to people.

So, maybe I'm still a little angry at Frank too....

[Daniel]

His victory speech over Prop 8 urged everyone to now put this issue aside, respect each other's opinions and try to get along.

So, maybe I'm still a little angry at Frank too....

You nailed my feeling as well. I heard that speech and it made me grind my teeth. Anthony Perkins said the same thing to Dan Savage on Larry King. And Dan shot right back.

I think it's really good to own our anger over this. Use it to get motivated. Moving.

Know what? I think this is the beginning of a new gay rights movement. And thank god for facebook. It's making things happen at the grass roots. Where it should happen. Lobbying? Oh that maybe part of it. But we need a campaign like the one Obama used. Local and door to door. In every state.

I only hope there are more demonstrations and protests.

Just saying: but how about writing Frank a letter? You may have to work a bit to keep it nonviolent, but even this might be a great way to process your feelings, yes?

I really do think it's time to make this issue personal.

[Rick336]

I'm also angry at Frank Schubert, campaign manager for yes on 8, lobbyists and largely responsible for getting together the support and donations on 8. My wife is friends with his sister, I've sat in the same house as him. I can't stand this man. His victory speech over Prop 8 urged everyone to now put this issue aside, respect each other's opinions and try to get along.

Um, I don't think so Frank. Oh, what I would say if I ever saw him in person again. He made big bucks off Prop 8. He sat back and watched (and probably enjoyed) the fighting, emotions and heart rendering on both sides over this issue, while lining his pockets with money from organized religion. Some of that money consisted of life savings of ordinary people, buying into the lies and fear that was his campaign for Prop 8. Exploiting minor children against the expressed wishes of the parent's, refusing to remove the lies and deceit in the commercials and articles. It's just disgusting. I feel he is a disgusting person. He should be ashamed of himself, and he owes everyone, including those who donated money a huge apology for exploiting children and lying to people.

So, maybe I'm still a little angry at Frank too....


People that are like Frank Schubert lack the mental capacity to see their own destructive behavior. They may falsely believe that they are somehow winners and achievers in life. But anytime a person deliberately takes advantage of others to boost his own self-worth, it's a very clear sign that something is terribly wrong with their mental self-image. Greed, deceitfulness, fantasies of superiority, and grandiosity are all clear indications of a very troubled mind.

In his book "The Art of Living Consciously", Psychologist Nathaniel Braden says," .......encouraging the notion that the source of self-esteem is external [is the] very belief that causes no end of suffering to people who look for the source of self-esteem everywhere but within."

Frank Schubert and millions of others measure their self-worth on how high on the imaginary ladder they are compared to those they see below them as their inferior. This means that inside, they are void of the values, integrity, and self-acceptance that is the root of a healthy self-esteem.

Rick

[tdogg]

Just saying: but how about writing Frank a letter? You may have to work a bit to keep it nonviolent, but even this might be a great way to process your feelings, yes?

I really do think it's time to make this issue personal.

Actually I've been mentally writing Frank a letter for the last two weeks. I'm certain that I will write it, and with some time in between November 4th and my letter, I will hopefully avoid being nasty.

I agree, that was is needed is a grass roots movement, door to door, person to person. We need to make it personal and reach out to those who didn't necessary vote on these initiatives because they have a problem with equality. In my opinion, people like Frank are a lost cause and we might be wasting our time have dialogue with them (maybe I'm wrong??). We need to reach out to those who weren't sure, succumbed to the lies or the urging of family/friends on the issue. Those are the people I feel we can reach.

Anthony Perkins is pretty close to the top of my anger list too. I do own my anger, and I'm working to channel it in a positive way, into resolve to do my part in gaining equality for everyone. Because what our 'opponents' don't realize, while they are fighting to keep GLBT people from having equal rights, is that we are fighting for them too, in a way. It's not about marriage, it's not about a word. It's about equality, being treated the same under the law, having the same rights, privileges and protections no matter our race, religion, gender, or no matter the gender of the person we love and want to spend our life with.

[Zerbie]

Because what our 'opponents' don't realize, while they are fighting to keep GLBT people from having equal rights, is that we are fighting for them too, in a way. It's not about marriage, it's not about a word. It's about equality, being treated the same under the law, having the same rights, privileges and protections no matter our race, religion, gender, or no matter the gender of the person we love and want to spend our life with.

Bingo!

It has troubled me that the news reporters say "supporters of gay marriage rallied in blah blah cities," when they should be saying "supporters of human rights" or "supporters of equality." This is absolutely about the larger issue --- equality, justice, a society where all are respected equally by the law is what has drawn out so many hundreds of thousands to the streets, many for the first time in their lives.

Like my in-laws. I'm so proud of them right now I could burst. :love::love:

[Rick336]

Bingo!

It has troubled me that the news reporters say "supporters of gay marriage rallied in blah blah cities," when they should be saying "supporters of human rights" or "supporters of equality." This is absolutely about the larger issue --- equality, justice, a society where all are respected equally by the law....

I agree. We need to educate the news media to what the real issue is here. It's not flowers and wedding cake; it's equality.

Rick

[Rick336]

It's not flowers and wedding cake; it's equality.

Rick

Well, sometimes it is about the cake. But still.

Rick






Ok. It's always about the cake.

[CaptainSnoopy]

I agree. We need to educate the news media to what the real issue is here. It's not flowers and wedding cake; it's equality.

Rick

Good point. And how do you re educate the press?

[Zerbie]

Good point. And how do you re educate the press?

That's why I didn't respond - I assume most people reading this are not the ones writing and sending press releases.

But if you are interviewed at a rally about being a supporter of gay marriage say something like, "You know, this is REALLY a human rights issue, a civil rights issue. It's about every American citizen having the same chance under the laws of the state. We're much more than supporters of 'gay marriage,' we are supporters of equality and human rights."

Then, hope they quote you.
:p

[Alecto]

I haven't been yet, but I found out yesterday that the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, along with GLAAD (I admit, I forgot what the first A stands for) actually hold media trainings about how to talk to the media, and how to essentially speak in a way that they like so they'll quote you.

[Zerbie]

I haven't been yet, but I found out yesterday that the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, along with GLAAD (I admit, I forgot what the first A stands for) actually hold media trainings about how to talk to the media, and how to essentially speak in a way that they like so they'll quote you.

Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation.

One tip I've learned is, don't say ANYTHING you don't want them to print/show on camera.