My name is Patrick

[CaptainSnoopy]

Hi,

My name is Patrick. I am a pastor in the burbs of Chicago. First of all, I am strait. Second of all, I quit the ministry in 1996. Over the last year and a half I have been working my way back into the ministry and am in the process of starting a new church with sponsorship from a more established one.

If we are gonna go with labels, I cannot put myself on one. Am I gay accepting, gay affirming? I dunno. I think I am in McLaren's five-year moratorium on making pronouncements.

At this point I will say I have gay friends who are Christians. Some are ministers. Some have amazing tales full of beauty and romance of how they met their partners.

Anyway, why am I here? I have a church starting at the end of the month. It is inspired in some ways by Jay Bakker's Revolution in NYC, but not a clone by any stretch of the imagination.

At the end of the day, this church is for all people (but mostly folks who have not been made to feel comfortable in churches) and I am looking for ways to connect with gay Christians in the Chicago area and see if what I am offering resonates with them. I also want to learn more about Soulforce and see if there is any humble way I can help to get the dialog going in my area.

[Gennee]

:wave::pray:
Welcome to the site, Patrick. It's wonderful that your church will be open to all; something that I have long believed in. I pray that your ministry will be a beacon to all: especially to the LGBT community.

Gennee

:love:

[CaptainSnoopy]

Thank you. Actually, my first service is on November 30. Just in life and conversation I have 3 lesbians I know of that are going to take part. One is all in and is an active part in feedback and helping us launch the church and the other two are kinda in..."Let's see if he means it" mode.

One of the college students who is a part of this called me on the phone two days ago to simply tell me..."Hey, just wanted you to know that I have 2 gay friends coming to first service. Soooooo...you mean all that everyone is welcome and no bait and switch stuff...right?" I think I was warned. She was telling me she trusts me and don't be a jerk when they actually come.

We also have some college kids, college age folks, single moms and some dads who got custody in the big D.

This is not to say YAY ME! This is more to give my situation. It is also one of the reasons for my coming here. In the area I live in we have the black church, the Hispanic church, the yuppie church, the gay church, etc etc. I am trying to incorporate anyone who felt for whatever reason they did not feel welcome in church.

Also, in another forum I am in with some ministers and other folk...we have been hashing a lot of stuff out. One of the items has been the LBGT issue and church. It is interesting, once we agreed to disagree on the sin element (some think there is a sin element, some think there is not...but you knew that already) and focus on what we do agree on...we came to the following places of agreement.

Yes, the LGBT community can be Christians and many ARE Christians.These are our brothers and sisters in Christ.

Prop 8 is a crock.

Many ministers and doing a really really really bad job loveing people in the LGBT community.

We have decided to think and pray this weekend about how we get other ministers and Christians in our respected areas to see what we see. To be like we are. In out little online groups you have gay people and conservatives agreeing on this stuff and asking..."how do we build that bridge?" and so yeah, here I am...rambling on an intro thread.

[BruceChris]

But I was downtown at the Gay Rights/Anti-Prop 8 rally. There were dozens held simultaneously, across the nation, and I just got back. I think the crowd estimate was about 2000,

Good luck with your new church, and keep in touch.

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[CaptainSnoopy]

Thank you Bruce Chris!!! :)

[Daniel]

Some of us are Christians, and some of use were Christians, and some of us aren't keen on labels. LOL

I was a A of G man myself and then came out, leaving the church in the process (no room there for an openly gay man), and discovered much in Buddhism and- especially- meditation. Call myself a Christian? Don't know about that. But I do endeavor to follow the teachings of Christ. Call me what you will! :rolleyes::lol:

You'll find plenty of support here for your endeavor(s). And those who can help you network in your area.

Great to have you here!

[CaptainSnoopy]

Thanks Daniel!

[Matt Algren]

Welcome, Snoop. Take yer shoes off and set a spell.

One of the college students who is a part of this called me on the phone two days ago to simply tell me..."Hey, just wanted you to know that I have 2 gay friends coming to first service. Soooooo...you mean all that everyone is welcome and no bait and switch stuff...right?"

This is the biggest hurdle that the church is going to continue to have with gay folks. Too many times, we've been told that God is love and everybody's welcome only to find out that we're only loved or welcomed if we follow a special list of rules.

[tdogg]

Hi Patrick. Glad you are here. Your story brings to mind an article I read in a local rag about a very popular pastor at a very popular and well-attended church here in Sacramento (non-denomination from their point of view). It's not meant as a comparison or accusation. I just thought of it when I read your statement on the 'bait and switch'.

Rick Cole, pastor of Capitol Christian Center here in Sacrament was recently interviewed by our local liberal paper, Sacramento News & Review (and also our local newspaper). In the article Cole mentioned how his views of GLBT have progressed over the years and differ greatly from his father (previous pastor of the church), in large part due to his children's more progressive views. He doesn't tolerate anti-gay sentiments in church or anti-gay protesters on the sidewalks around his church. He welcomes all GLBT people in his church. When asked outright about whether or not he supports same sex marriage, he finally stated his true beliefs: he does not support same-sex marriage and was going to vote yes on 8.

The bottom line, we are not truly welcome if cannot be welcome as ourselves. I would never attend that church, for if the pastor and majority of the congregation do not believe I deserve equal civil rights, as they have, then I could never feel welcome.

I'm looking forward to hearing more about your church and how it progresses. I hope you come back and continue to share. I have no doubt that you'll do just fine. :love::love:

[CaptainSnoopy]

tdogg,

It was funny you mention that. I was at another pastors office yesterday. My daughter is in his church's Christmas pageant thingy and the conference room thingy is where they do rehearsals. Anyway, he comes in and we do small talk and I told him a little about my conversations here and the other forum and he did not know about the protests.

So I mentioned that I have some other pastor buddies who are on various ends of spectrum on the "gay issue" but all agree prop 8 is a joke and a LGBT person can have a genuine relationship with Christ. Now, he is a guy who I thought-and still think-is pretty progressive. He told me that he does not know how he feels about the whole gay marriage thing. I asked what is there to think about? Let them get married if they wanna get married. He then had to justify first that biology and theology show that there is a sin element (not the topic at hand, but whatever) and then went on to explain his conflict.

His concern is that if we as a society allow gay marriage the kids will grow up in an era where it is okay to be gay. I pointed at the kids and told him that the difference and the reality now is that these kids will grow up saying "These are my friends" where when we (he a boomer me gen x) grew up with a minuscule amount of peers ever daring to come out. That shift has already occurred.

The weird part is that he has a brother in law who is gay and he is very very cool with the gay people he knows. But he has been a minister for about 30 years now and we have been trained well.

I'm looking for an opportunity to have some kinda soulforce action and forums with local churches as opposed to just the megas. You get a guy like him to hear the heart of a gay Christian and his mind can change.

[tdogg]

Patrick,

A couple of suggestions (you may already be planning). Check out the documentary "For the Bible Tells Me So" and then get the book "Straight Parents, Gay Children." In my opinion, those are two tools that you shouldn't do without in your ministry (and in communicating with other Christians). Now, it might not mean an immediate change of heart, but it will definitely give them something to think about.

I think the one-on-one conversations will be the key to folks seeing that we aren't any different then they are, other than the gender of the person we love. When they can actually get past some of the stuff they've been taught their entire lives then minds and hearts will ever so slightly begin to open.

[CaptainSnoopy]

I've seen the documentary. I will have to check out the book.

Honestly, I think the scriptural and theological aspects of the documentary are a hard sell. In the same way many evangelical witnessing techniques are a hard sell since they rely on intellectual arguments with a few gotchas at the end. Also, like the debates on pre and post and mid trib...there are scholars on both sides of fences that will have counters and opinions that all sound good.

Now, the one thing the film does well and right is showcase the stories of people who are gay and some encounters with religious bigitry. THAT opens eyes when a mirror is help up to you and you see how you look.

I guess what I am saying is that, in my opinion, the heart needs to be opened before the mind can be. Jesus spoke truth about the Bible and Pharisees who knew the Bible and saw his miracles and heard his words were never moved because their hearts were not open. The heart has to open before the mind can. The documentary is 50/50 for me on it's effectiveness, but I will order the book. :). As a planting of a seed? Hmmmmm....maybe the movie bears some merit there.

Yeah...one on one is where it is gonna happen. It is just getting people to the table. Part of me wants to start with local area pastors first. Still trying to figure that one out.

[Daniel]

A forum or panel where gay people tell their stories, not debate theological issues.

I think you are right about the effectiveness of intellectual arguments being a hard sell. But stories? People talking about their lives? That's something else.

That's real, not abstract. A heart opener.

[CaptainSnoopy]

Amen, Daniel!

[keltic63]

A forum or panel where gay people tell their stories, not debate theological issues.

I think you are right about the effectiveness of intellectual arguments being a hard sell. But stories? People talking about their lives? That's something else.

That's real, not abstract. A heart opener.

reminds me of this wonderful book that helped me so much when I first came out:
http://www.amazon.com/We-Were-Baptized-Too-Claiming/dp/0664256287

[CaptainSnoopy]

Ohhhhh! Ordering now! The reviews look like this is a worthwhile read. Thank you!

[Matt Algren]

A forum or panel where gay people tell their stories, not debate theological issues.

I think you are right about the effectiveness of intellectual arguments being a hard sell. But stories? People talking about their lives? That's something else.

That's real, not abstract. A heart opener.
There's talk about doing something like that at my church.

Me and my big mouth...

[CaptainSnoopy]

There's talk about doing something like that at my church.

Me and my big mouth...

I like you Matt. :)

BTW, you and my wife both agree on NPH being awesome and dreamy. ;)

[Matt Algren]

I like you Matt. :)

BTW, you and my wife both agree on NPH being awesome and dreamy. ;)
Your wife obviously has wonderful taste in men.

[CaptainSnoopy]

Your wife obviously has wonderful taste in men.
Tell that to her parents! :eek:

13 years and they still don't like me. I think the basis of that is that I am not a polish catholic doctor who likes golf.

[Jennifer5]

Tell that to her parents! :eek:

13 years and they still don't like me. I think the basis of that is that I am not a polish catholic doctor who likes golf.

Don't worry to much about it... some people are just like that. My uncle has been married to the same woman for 20 years and my grandparents still don't like her. :rolleyes: Don't be discouraged by that statement, juts know that it probably doesn't have anything to do with you. :love:



Anyway, I just wanted to finally say "hi"... I've really been enjoying your posts! :wave:

[CaptainSnoopy]

Thank you, Jennifer, the feeling is mutual.