No More Mr. Nice Gay

[Daniel]

A group of Christians who go to the Castro in San Francisco every Friday night to witness to gay people - and one assumes saves them- was met with resistence this past Friday.

http://www.towleroad.com/2008/11/no-more-mr-nice.html



No More Mr. Nice Gay? Christians Chased from Castro

On Friday night, before the day of protest we saw across the nation, a conflict erupted in San Francisco's Castro District between a group of residents and a group of Christians who reportedly meet every Friday on the same corner to preach to gays and lesbians about 'converting' into heterosexuals. This time, they were met by an angry mob and the conflict grew so large riot police were called to the area as the Christians were basically chased out of the neighborhood.

KTVU reports: "'Their rights were respected,' said Joe Schmitz, an opponent of Prop 8. 'They got a chance to go ahead and pray on the sidewalk and I had the opportunity to express my freedom of speech which is telling them to get out of my neighborhood.' San Francisco Police officers in riot gear formed a line and escorted the religious group into a van to safely get them out of the area. Members of the gay community insisted that their reaction to the Christian group was spontaneous. 'It was not an organized thing. We're tired of it. It's not religious. It's not a racial thing. It's about hate. We're trying to send a message across the world that we're standing up and we don't want this to go on anymore,' said Adam Quintero."

According to Joe.My.God, the religious right is already using the video (which you can see AFTER THE JUMP) as an example of the "intolerance" the gay community has toward the religious. While most of us know the hypocrisy behind that accusation, no doubt their followers eat these kinds of incidents up (just like this one).

PrRxFoBSPng

The thing that comes to mind here is how conservative Christians are continually harping about how gay people are intent on converting young people to homosexuality, which is an outright falsehood. For the fact reamain, it is conservative Christians who are intent on 'converting' gay people. And I guess, in this instance, they aren't going to take it anymore.

I'm glad the police were there to protect everyone and that this situation did not become violent.

If I hear the audio correctly, the crowd is chanting: "No More Hate!" "Don't Come Back!" and "Shame on You!"

It's pretty raw and angry. And considering what was lost in California, I 'get it'.

[CaptainSnoopy]

You do hear the audio correctly. Kinda hard to call people haters when they scream no more hate...but we will see what Fox does with it.

[labguy22]

The sleeping Dragon has been awakened!
For too long we have become complacent and have tried to fit into their mold of what couples and families should be. We let them tell us that being gay is a sin while respecting their right to free speech while they openly practice religious persecution towards us. No More
I guess it would be perfectly fine for us to go into their churches, temples and synagogues and try to convert them to our side???
Again, they still insist it's a choice. But they also believe the Earth was formed in a day and well you know the rest.

[Daniel]

You do hear the audio correctly. Kinda hard to call people haters when they scream no more hate...but we will see what Fox does with it.

This chant, "No More Hate", was present in the march that I went to last week at the Mormon Temple here in NYC last week. In fact, there was a lot of signage (is that a word now?) about hate.

I hope, in time, we will come to see this as a matter of ignorance rather than mere hate. But under the circumstances, what can be taken away from this is that gay people are feeling the brunt of Prop 8, and it feels like hate to them.

[CaptainSnoopy]

I hope, in time, we will come to see this as a matter of ignorance rather than mere hate. But under the circumstances, what can be taken away from this is that gay people are feeling the brunt of Prop 8, and it feels like hate to them.

I hope so as well. I do not live in Cali and therefore never got to see any of the ads or flyers or local news discussion. I have a funny feeling that most of the people who voted for prop 8 do not hate...so much as they fear and they fear because of the ones who hate. Fear is a powerful tool to the ignorant and the greatest weapon is enlightenment.

[Zerbie]

Reminds me of Stonewall in a way.

Very glad the situation did not escalate. Of course my sympathies are with those who've had it Up To Here.

Being married, I cannot imagine the fury I would unleash on someone who would actively campaign to have the state revoke our marriage. I'd go ballistic, so would hubby, and there would be hell to pay. How can anyone be so ignorant as not to expect that reaction from tens of thousands of couples? AND to deliberately go into a neighborhood like the Castro with their conversion bullshit, (when, let's face it, they have to have been presented with the evidence a gazillion times as to how and why it is bullshit,) one hopes they at least had the presence of mind to expect the kind of reaction they got.

It seems the whole community did the same kind of shift I did after that election. We've all come to an understanding, en masse, that our gentle, soft-spoken tolerance of intolerance gets us nowhere. To accept an overreaching intolerance that legislates against human rights only perpetuates widespread institutionalized civil rights violations.

I've upped the ante in my own little way. Started wearing my marriage equality button daily, even to the grocery store. If you knew my neighborhood, you'd understand why that's a big deal. :p
When the cashier leaned in and asked what it said, I loudly and proudly announced, "It's a marriage EQUALITY button:D," in gleefully happy tones. Presumably the cashier does not support marriage equality because she clenched her lips and jaw together and just made a really big nod. I beamed all the way out of checkout. Sounds silly I suppose, but I've had a lot of conversations about gay rights with grocery store cashiers because of my tee shirts, and it's time they see people in their neighborhood speaking out for equality in marriage.

[pnggrad79]

Reminds me of Stonewall in a way.

Very glad the situation did not escalate. Of course my sympathies are with those who've had it Up To Here.

Being married, I cannot imagine the fury I would unleash on someone who would actively campaign to have the state revoke our marriage. I'd go ballistic, so would hubby, and there would be hell to pay. How can anyone be so ignorant as not to expect that reaction from tens of thousands of couples? AND to deliberately go into a neighborhood like the Castro with their conversion bullshit, (when, let's face it, they have to have been presented with the evidence a gazillion times as to how and why it is bullshit,) one hopes they at least had the presence of mind to expect the kind of reaction they got.

It seems the whole community did the same kind of shift I did after that election. We've all come to an understanding, en masse, that our gentle, soft-spoken tolerance of intolerance gets us nowhere. To accept an overreaching intolerance that legislates against human rights only perpetuates widespread institutionalized civil rights violations.

I've upped the ante in my own little way. Started wearing my marriage equality button daily, even to the grocery store. If you knew my neighborhood, you'd understand why that's a big deal. :p
When the cashier leaned in and asked what it said, I loudly and proudly announced, "It's a marriage EQUALITY button:D," in gleefully happy tones. Presumably the cashier does not support marriage equality because she clenched her lips and jaw together and just made a really big nod. I beamed all the way out of checkout. Sounds silly I suppose, but I've had a lot of conversations about gay rights with grocery store cashiers because of my tee shirts, and it's time they see people in their neighborhood speaking out for equality in marriage.


I applaud you Zerb, for your tenacity, and your spunk. Even though you are married, I think you are terrific to stand up for those of us who can't because we are gay/lesbian. A friend of mine, who knows I am a lesbian, walked into my class today flaunting a new engagement ring. I oohed and aahhed over it and then said, "Maybe someday all of us will get that privilege" She lost her smile and said, "We will keep working until that happens!" I hugged her and she said," Someday, babe, someday"

The day of the protest when I couldn't find the damn thing, I went to Borders off Alabama and Westheimer and one of the cashiers saw my shirt and said, "I like your shirt". Support is out there and it is good to see it. I just hope Obama does what he promised and ensures equality for all Americans, not just the straight ones.

[Steven E. Webster]

Friends,

One of the gay and political websites that I enjoy is Pam's House Blend (Always Steamin'!)

Pam has this comment on the incident in San Francisco:

http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do;jsessionid=FE985E730DECAE3E1F96FD85A8 9167F4?diaryId=8274

Steven Webster

[tdogg]

I've upped the ante in my own little way. Started wearing my marriage equality button daily, even to the grocery store. If you knew my neighborhood, you'd understand why that's a big deal. :p
When the cashier leaned in and asked what it said, I loudly and proudly announced, "It's a marriage EQUALITY button:D," in gleefully happy tones. Presumably the cashier does not support marriage equality because she clenched her lips and jaw together and just made a really big nod. I beamed all the way out of checkout. Sounds silly I suppose, but I've had a lot of conversations about gay rights with grocery store cashiers because of my tee shirts, and it's time they see people in their neighborhood speaking out for equality in marriage.

Yeah, I suddenly want to be decked out in rainbows. Shave my head. Anything so there is no doubt I'm a lesbian anywhere and everywhere I go. I was going to attach my GLBT for Obama button on my tote bag today, but wasn't sure it would get through security (long pointy needle thing). I want to wear my rainbows, including to work.

[Daniel]

Friends,

One of the gay and political websites that I enjoy is Pam's House Blend (Always Steamin'!)

Pam has this comment on the incident in San Francisco:


If there was actual violence. And it was captured on film. That would not do the gay rights movement any good. Accusations of violence, if no police report of evidence exists, is just that, an accusation.

As a case in point, I saw the utube vid dealing with the Mormon Temple demonstration that I participated in, and heard with my own ears Ann Northop telling marshalls before the event that there was nothing to be gained by antagonizing the opposition, even if they were violent towards us.

This stands out to me. For clearly, most of us involved in the pursuit of civil rights understand- in some measure- the example of King and the methods of nonviolence. However, one has to be trained in this, or at least instructed: that's why protests have marshalls to begin with!

However, in this video, that is not the case. What transpired - if one takes the word of participants at face value- happened spontaneously.

And this thought occurred to me: perhaps it was habit, but it was pretty stupid for the oppostion to show it's face in the Castro not even a week after Prop 8. That is tantamount as asking for some kind of reaction. Ok. So they got it. Now. Who provoked whom?

One thing should not be done here, and that is blaming the victim for being oppressed.

[Daniel]

If anyone saw Dan Savage on Larry King the other night, here's what he wished he would have said.


http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2008/11/15/what_i_wish_i_d_said_on_larry


What I Wish I'd Said on Larry King Last Night
Posted by Dan Savage on Sat, Nov 15 at 5:30 PM

Well, amongst other things: When political attacks are launched from churches, political responses will be delivered to churches. If goddamned McDonald's had organized and paid for Prop 8, we'd be marching on goddamned McDonalds.

I mention this because there is the thought that somehow, protesting against churches and individuals who represent churches is somehwo off-limits. That's one thing I've seen here. Many are the folks (not lately I have to say) who come to the forum incredulous that someone is taking issue with them.

Well duh!

The math is pretty simple actually: if you take action (theological or political) to take away the rights of a group of people there is going to be a counter-reaction.

[kara speltz]

We won't win this fight by being in their faces! We can only win by being in their hearts. As Gandhi and King have taught, we must become the change we seek.

Kara

[CaptainSnoopy]

We won't win this fight by being in their faces! We can only win by being in their hearts. As Gandhi and King have taught, we must become the change we seek.

Kara

Beautifully said.

[Daniel]

We won't win this fight by being in their faces! We can only win by being in their hearts. As Gandhi and King have taught, we must become the change we seek.


It may be a semantic small point, but I believe change happens when WE have heart.

Being in another person's face? I believe there's a time and place for that.

Having lived through the 80's and seeing how those involved in ACT-UP single handedly changed policies regarding AIDS by being 'in your face' which literally saved lives, it makes me have a gimlet-eyed view of this whole matter. ACT-UP wasn't violent, but they were certainly confrontational.

And more sematics: winning a fight? There's an irony there.

Are we fighting for nonviolence now? :rolleyes:

Which begs the question: does all nonviolence 'look' a certain way? Does it have to be nice? Was Jesus nice when he threw out the money changers? Are the ERiders being nice by going to Christian Colleges where they aren't wanted?

[Zerbie]

The change we seek requires no longer tolerating civil rights violations. They violate human dignity itself as well as American principles.

Yes. We must connect heart to heart, we must cultivate alliances, relationships, and literal *connections* with other groups of people.

But do we ask human beings to quietly accept entire groups of people telling them they are inferior/unacceptable only DAYS after orchestrating a popular vote to strip them of the civil rights their constitution guarantees?

There must be an exceedingly fine line somewhere. But we won't find out where that line is if we all look at the floor and say nothing when ignorance waxes into intolerance and enters the proverbial sanctuary of 'gay space' with psychologically, spiritually damaging messages.

We will have to find that line by experimentation. We also must operate from our center of love and courage.

That all said, it's past time I actually view the clip, now.

[Zerbie]

Okay, watched the clip now and I have mixed feelings. To my view, it went overboard chasing them for blocks and blocks, and with some individuals taunting, and the guy who yelled into the camera. Though I understand why that happened.

I just hope the 'christians' who went in to do their conversion thing weren't clueless enough to be surprised by what happened. It smacks of deliberate provocation.

[Daniel]

There must be an exceedingly fine line somewhere. But we won't find out where that line is if we all look at the floor and say nothing when ignorance waxes into intolerance and enters the proverbial sanctuary of 'gay space' with psychologically, spiritually damaging messages.


I think I am going to remember this line for a long long time. Thank you.

Well spoke.

[nmwolfboy]

Having lived through the 80's and seeing how those involved in ACT-UP single handedly changed policies regarding AIDS by being 'in your face' which literally saved lives, it makes me have a gimlet-eyed view of this whole matter. ACT-UP wasn't violent, but they were certainly confrontational.

And more sematics: winning a fight? There's an irony there.

Are we fighting for nonviolence now? :rolleyes:

Which begs the question: does all nonviolence 'look' a certain way? Does it have to be nice? Was Jesus nice when he threw out the money changers? Are the ERiders being nice by going to Christian Colleges where they aren't wanted?Good points, Daniel. i see a big difference between confrontational and violent. The Christ portrayed in the Gospels was frequently confrontational, especially to the religious authorities of the day.

What would benefit us most, as an angered community, is the kind of training that the people led by MLK and Ghandi (and SF's ERiders) benefited from. Especially since some of those who choose to scapegoat us for their fears are actively trying to deliberately antagonize us.

That kind of training will carry us far, and is useful not only to the struggles of LGBTs, but will also be useful in our wider community responses to the increasing incidents of racial intimidation in the US since the election.

Pax et bonum,
scott

[nmwolfboy]

Box Turtle Bulletin is carrying a post about civil disobedience in San Francisco (http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/11/17/6689)is response to the passage of Prop 8. While we discuss confrontation v. violence, we would do well to remember that actions such as those reported by BTB are also part of the mix. Civil disobedience is much in keeping with the modern tradition of non-violent resistance.

[CaptainSnoopy]

The interesting thing about Gandhi and King is that when you see pictures of their protests and video footage...you see authorities and haters using firehoses and clubs on them and they keep moving. But they do not hate, chase, or strike back.

Yeah, I am not gay, I am not black, I am not a woman. The only time I know what it feels to be hated is when I got to Haiti to build schools and hospitals. I have a juxtaposition of little kids saying hi to me and teenagers throwing rocks at me. BUT, after 10 days I get to hop on a plane and no longer face stones, the middle finger, or insults hurled at me in Creole.

I do know that there is not weakness in turning the other cheek, but there is strength. King knew this and so did Gandhi. When you turn the other cheek you get to make eye contact and they see your resolve. When someone takes your shirt and you lay all your clothes before them you expose the insanity of their greed. When anyone takes this path of strength, it is the one who hits, chases, hurts, and yells that is exposed and it is that person that looks bad and the press eventually cannot ignore the jeering of those who hold the hose and the strength of those who take it...stand up...grab what is left of their sign and keep marching.

When I see Civil Rights protesters who do not fight back getting hosed or beaten, I am angry at the injustice. When I see a young man in a square stand defiantly in front of a tank, my throat chokes and my eyes well up. Why? Because something rings true in all our hearts when people not only stand, but they stand without weapons and without the hate that is spewed upon them. The human heart does not know race, gender, age, sexual identity. It does, however, know and identify with courage and truth.

[sauu4equality]

After a long consideration of the arguments in this thread, I still do not know what it will take to gain marriage equality throughout the U.S. I get the strange feeling that there is a big group of people saying, "what have we learned from the civil rights movement? You can't turn fire hoses on them or chase them with dogs. That makes them look like victims. Let's make them look bad by showing their anger when someone shows up holding signs against them in their moment of extreme pain. Then they'll never gain their rights. Not this time. We must keep this country controlled by Straight, White, Evangelical/Catholic/Mormon/Christian Men. We've had our differences in the past, but as White Men who find some sexual acts gross we must unite to keep control." This theory is perpetuated by Fox News' coverage of the protests and the supposed "intolerance" of the religious by gays that has been alleged by a number of conservative media outlets. I don't know what are recourse is. The Constitution has failed to do what it was put in place to do: protect the rights of all Americans. The Bible is clear about Slavery. The Bible is clear about Homosexuality. Slave owners should be respected and gays should be stoned to death. This is what their book says. To them, any threat to their book, is a threat to their faith. This is their last stand, and I'm afraid they learned alot from the civil rights movement. They have formed alliances along lines of hate. Any Evangelical will tell you all Mormons are going to hell. And any Mormon will tell you all Catholics are worshipping false idols. But they're in this one together. They must keep their country run by people that think like them. Or some other minority may gain its rights. They've already got to employ Blacks and allow women to leave the kitchen. They can't burn down Mosques without being jailed. Their book has been proved time and time again to reflect poor values. It is in need of revision. We cannot wait until this happens. It took Catholics until the year 2000 to apologize for the Crusades...but if we protest, we are painted as haters of the religious. So, they've got us where they want us. As they do, I wish Jesus would come down right now. He is the only one that could settle this. But in moments like these, His absence is all the more noticeable.

I apologize for those seeking a hopeful outlook. To me, our only hope is the courts. Yes we're close to acceptance in California. But in most of the other 49 states, the majority views us as sexual predators. This isn't going to change any time soon. In Arkansas they voted to end the right of a single heterosexual to adopt a child just to make sure that a gay man or woman couldn't adopt a child. To deny rights to some of their own, just to make sure the rights of gays were denied is supremely hateful. It shows no moral or ethic. Just blind faith in words on a page written thousands of years ago. Only courts can defend minorities against this kind of social sickness. Only Jesus himself could change their minds. Both appear unwilling to help.

[Zerbie]

the proverbial sanctuary of 'gay space'

Someone asked what this means. My PM box is full and I don't want to take time right now to clear space, so I'll answer here.

"Gay space" refers to space, mostly physical but it can also be cyber --- places in the community that are the 'safe' spaces thought of as primarily 'gay,' like certain gay owned businesses, churches, perhaps this website counts as a cyber 'gay space.' And so on.

Sanctuary, meaning a place that people think of as safe. We've called this website a sanctuary so many times.

"Proverbial," well, okay probably only proverbially a sanctuary on this website, but we often refer to gay space as a sanctuary when we post here, so I modified the word sanctuary with the adjective proverbial to refer to how often we've called 'gay space' a sanctuary.

[FoxInSox]

That's kind of a sad image, Zerbie. I'm reminded of church...how someone who is LGBT knows they are welcome at Metropolitan or Cathedral of Hope, but maybe not elsewhere. And, I'm reminded of separate but equal. Or the reservations. What I envision when you describe "gay space" (which was the part I didn't understand), is an enclave where LGBT people feel safe because, in general, that's where our culture and society has relegated them.

I have no idea if that is what is intended to be connotated, but that is what i take from it. I guess I am grateful that there is a place where GLBT people feel safe...but there is something really wrong with that place being so cut off from society/culture-at-large.

[tpdncr4christ]

I've been following this discussion, and as someone who witnessed what happened in California, I'd like to put in two cents.

Up until the week before the election we hadn't seen too many signs, but living in Orange County, I knew I would see widespread support of Proposition 8. I did not, however, expect the indecency of the signs. I live right down the street from Mega-Church Saddle Back (I was even in sixth grade with Rick Warren's daughter), and so I assume that the majority of the signs came from those church members. My friends and I went out one night and removed signs that we thought were in offensive places, like the front of my neighbor hood, attached all along street lights and lampposts, hung up on street shrubs; we took down nearly seventy signs. The next morning, nearly every sign we had taken down had been replaced with two or three more.

I saw yes on 8 supporters at a rally on a street corner with their children, honking horns and shouting to cars. I had to speed out of the intersection to keep myself from confronting them. It was terrible. The amount of money they spent ensuring that one man cannot marry another is ridiculous, btw, does anyone have a figure of how much money was spent in support of 8?

But my point is simply that we are up against an intolerance that has become socially acceptable. If we are going to win equality we are going to have to go up against a generation of people who were taught being gay or lesbian in and of itself is morally wrong. We need to make it clear that we cannot, and will not tolerate that sentiment any longer. If that means standing up to religious intolerance with a few angry words, so be it. We didn't get this far by walking quietly. Our community works off of spontaneity. We responded at Stonewall by throwing rocks at cops. Now at least we can hold hands in public with out getting arrested, now we can have civilly recognized relationships. Don't you think we need to throw maybe just a few more stones to get to marriage?

[CaptainSnoopy]

It all depends on what means you believe justify the end.

When you toss a rock the rock may hit someone. That person may be hurt or killed. That person may be someones son or daughter, mother or father, husband wife or lover. Friend. That person may not even be an enemy, but a friend to your cause and the adrenaline running through your veins may affect your aim.

Hate begets hate. Words of hate can become a fist of hate, a fist can become a rock, a rock can be a bat, a bat can become a knife and a knife can become a gun.

It's your call and it is your hands. Do with them what you will.

[Matt Algren]

But "peaceful protest" doesn't mean "skipping through the street holding hands singing 'Sunshine Day' by the Brady Bunch'". There's nothing wrong with a little anger; I'd go so far as to say it's necessary.

One thing's for sure: We won't change it until we actually give a darn. Last weekend's reason to be hopeful, but way too many come up with excuses for not being visible. I'm looking at the facebook page for last Saturday's protest in Dayton. Here are the numbers: 102 attending, 132 maybe, 203 not attending, no response 392. The page is COVERED with excuses for not making it. Maybe 100 people showed up, and that's being generous.

The page for the next one in December is much the same. People are busy, or their boss will get mad, or they only have X vacation left.

Honestly. If we don't care, why should anybody else?

[CaptainSnoopy]

But "peaceful protest" doesn't mean "skipping through the street holding hands singing 'Sunshine Day' by the Brady Bunch'". There's nothing wrong with a little anger; I'd go so far as to say it's necessary.



Agreed and I stand corrected on the anger. Anger is justified. It is what we do while angry that makes the difference. Anger can drive some to do great things and others...nto so great.

Some of the signs and the protest footage you guys share on the site here move me and make me proud to be getting to know some of you. I am ready to grab a sign and walk with you and will at the next opportunity in my area...just not a rock. :)

[wmanion]

Hate begets hate. Words of hate can become a fist of hate, a fist can become a rock, a rock can be a bat, a bat can become a knife and a knife can become a gun.



On the same note. Intolerance begets intolerance and I think it is high time that we let those who have sowed the seed on intolerance towards us, reap the intolerance back. It is time that we no longer tolerate their intolerance. I do not advocate violence of any kind, but we cannot be put in the position any longer where we have to tolerate their hate.

[Zerbie]

That's kind of a sad image, Zerbie.
. What I envision when you describe "gay space" (which was the part I didn't understand), is an enclave where LGBT people feel safe because, in general, that's where our culture and society has relegated them.

I have no idea if that is what is intended to be connotated, but that is what i take from it. I guess I am grateful that there is a place where GLBT people feel safe...but there is something really wrong with that place being so cut off from society/culture-at-large.

This is the context in which I used the words 'gay space.'

Quoting our Daniel below:

That said, I strongly believe that gay people need 'gay space'. I went on a yoga retreat with gay men this past year, and it was wonderful, amazing and transformative. It's the kind of experience and connection that one doesn't find in everyday life. As such, there is a need for places and organizations which foster such 'meetings' of the mind and heart.

I don't know if we have to have a separate society in terms of law, but I do see the need for 'society' in terms of culture, which is something that is - historically speaking- is passed down from generation to generation. And I wonder how much of that wisdom has been lost with the terrible decade of AIDS. A whole generation that would be entering the sage years was cut down.

You write of beauty Scotty, it's creation and furtherance. My own sense is that it's existence can only truly flourish when the society that it takes place in makes space for it as well. And the struggle for the latter is what seems to be taking place right now.

We need sanctuary. But we also need the right to sanctuary, whether it is the mountain top or the marriage bed.[/COLOR]

[FoxInSox]

Daniel's description certainly connotates something different than what I was thinking in my head.

[Matt Algren]

This is the context in which I used the words 'gay space.'

Quoting our Daniel below:

That said, I strongly believe that gay people need 'gay space'. I went on a yoga retreat with gay men this past year, and it was wonderful, amazing and transformative. It's the kind of experience and connection that one doesn't find in everyday life. As such, there is a need for places and organizations which foster such 'meetings' of the mind and heart.

I don't know if we have to have a separate society in terms of law, but I do see the need for 'society' in terms of culture, which is something that is - historically speaking- is passed down from generation to generation. And I wonder how much of that wisdom has been lost with the terrible decade of AIDS. A whole generation that would be entering the sage years was cut down.

You write of beauty Scotty, it's creation and furtherance. My own sense is that it's existence can only truly flourish when the society that it takes place in makes space for it as well. And the struggle for the latter is what seems to be taking place right now.

We need sanctuary. But we also need the right to sanctuary, whether it is the mountain top or the marriage bed.[/COLOR]
He's talking about something like what grew in African American churches after the Civil War. I agree that it's necessary. Another roadblock to the kind of passing down of the culture from generation to generation is the fact that we have to build a structure outside the normal channels. Usually that kind of thing can be done by families, and since each generation comes from families outside the community, we have to be more deliberate than the straight people (weirdos) do.

[Daniel]

Seems that it was members of Joel's Army.

http://www.towleroad.com/2008/11/meh-recognized.html

There's more to the story of Friday's incident in San Francisco's Castro district, in which a group of Christians were chased out of the neighborhood for trying to convert gays. Those Christians were part of Joel's Army, a group that demands that the United States be ruled by strict Biblical principles.

There's a link on the Towleroad page that takes you to a video of a member of their group who was there that night.

http://joemygod.blogspot.com/2008/11/elijah-jezebel-showdown.html

She (the member) recounts that a gay man said "Why here? Why now?" (That's a good question!) She also recounts a degree of violence by gay people which- if true- needs to be substantiated.

Anyone know of a police report about what actually happened? Was anyone arrested? These are questions that need answered.

And perhaps it's just me, but after listening the video, I am struck by the dissconnect between the words by the young woman told the gay man- "We love you!" - and the experience of that man having just lost a civil right.

Christians are showing their love for us, apparently, by taking away our rights.

Seems we aren't grateful enough. :rolleyes:

[Zerbie]

Yeah, no kidding, if that's love, I hope those people never love ME!! :eek:

"Why here, why now" is the million dollar question. As I may have said earlier in this thread, to enter 'gay space' at This Particular Time! with a conversionary intent comes across as incredibly predatory.

[CaptainSnoopy]

Anyone know of a police report about what actually happened? Was anyone arrested? These are questions that need answered.



At this time it does not appear battery arrests were made. From the convos I have had it is unlikely anyone will truly know what exactly did or did not happen and what was and was not said other than the snippet we are all seeing on youtube after the police arrived. This seems to be a tense event with high emotions that did not end in tragedy.

At the end of the day, the most important thing is that no one was seriously injured. It is my fear that people are going to get hurt in all of this. Frankly, it does not matter to me which side of the fence of this mess gets hurt...it will be a bad thing.

Maybe she did get something tossed in her face, but if she did, it likely was not hot coffee. Hot coffee tends to scald. When freshly brewed it is at about 190 to 200 degrees F and it can stay at scalding temps in most closed containers (such as Starbucks or dunkin donuts cups for up to 20 minutes). Her complexion seems to be just fine.