How to Bridge the gap?

[CaptainSnoopy]

Okay, here is something me and a few other pastors and GLBT Christian friends are struggling with.

How do we bridge the gap. We have come to the point where we are all in agreement that we cannot caty bar the doors to the GLBT community, supporting prop 8 is dumb and so forth.

So now comes questions.

How do we get that message spread to other Christians and churches and pastors in our respective areas?

I am not just looking for the theories, but bricks and mortar. What does it look like? How do we get everyone into a room to listen and talk?

So...ideas? :D

[CaptainSnoopy]

One more question. I googled two of the colleges in the area and one has a gay/straight alliance. THere is a teacher contacts with a phone number and email. I really wanna reach out to her and see if she would be willing to have me come to one of their meetings and get feedback from them (and invite GLBT students of faith to come somewhere that is safe harbor for them to worship).

Contacting her is a no brainier. But is it better to introduce myself via email or to pick up the hone and dial? :)

If you were her, how would you prefer to hear from me for the first time?

[Zerbie]

Sponsor a conference and invite them to attend??


RE: #2, I'm sure it doesn't matter. What I do is first send an email, then make a phone call a week later to follow up if I have not heard back.

[CaptainSnoopy]

I like the conference idea. Who speaks and who is invited? My thoughts are guys like me, some gay christians, and then invite pastors and church leaders to the first one.

[CaptainSnoopy]

BTW, thank you. Email is sent.

[CaptainSnoopy]

Yay! She wrote me back!! The college group has a meeting tonight and she is gonna approach them about my questions. I asked 3 things.

1. Could I attend a few of the meetings?
2. Could I be allowed to tell GLBT peeps of faith that I have a church that would genuinely welcome them without bait and switch get straight slop.
3. Could I talk to the whole group about my questions of how to build this bridge with churches.

I also had lunch with a pastor in the area today that said he is hip to the idea of a conference like Zerbie suggested.

[CaptainSnoopy]

Wheee! She is gonna list my church as a place for the kids of faith in the group to go to.

Now, about this conference.......

[BenL]

This thread reminds me of another one some time ago that was similar, but I can't remember enough of it to know how to search for it and offer it to you for your consideration. So, I'll offer some thoughts on how to approach the gay community.

1. Remember that many gay people have been deeply hurt by churches and religion and are gun-shy. Don't presume that because you open your doors they will come.

2. Straight people who found ministries for gays are often surprised when LGBT people aren't all that grateful. It's sort of like when white folks found missions for black people and then wonder why they're not received well. Try to get LGBT folks in the forefront, meaning in leadership positions, along with everyone else. That will convince gay people quicker than anything that you have good intentions. (As I read your posts, I recognize that your efforts are for everyone, not just gay people.)

3. Learn to listen, really listen, to the stories of LGBT people who talk to you. Our stories are our witness, to use a classical religious term. Honor our stories, we'll honor yours.

4. Be open to the possibility that you may well learn more about God's love from gay people than they will learn from you. Be open to that possibility -- it could be a grace-filled moment.

You might research some of Sailaway's past threads. He was thinking of founding a bible-study group in his conservative church for GLBT people -- or something like that. That may be the thread I was thinking of.

I'll hold your efforts in prayer.

[CaptainSnoopy]

1. Remember that many gay people have been deeply hurt by churches and religion and are gun-shy. Don't presume that because you open your doors they will come.
Not presuming anything of the sort.

2. Straight people who found ministries for gays are often surprised when LGBT people aren't all that grateful. It's sort of like when white folks found missions for black people and then wonder why they're not received well. Try to get LGBT folks in the forefront, meaning in leadership positions, along with everyone else. That will convince gay people quicker than anything that you have good intentions. (As I read your posts, I recognize that your efforts are for everyone, not just gay people.)
As you already noted. I am for everyone, not just the LGBT persons and I would prefer community over gratitude. Got over my bad self when I lost the washboard tummy a decade ago. What I tire of is two fold. In town I can tell you where the black church is, the white church, the mexican church, the gay church and so forth. I can also point out how many churches say everyone is welcome and do not mean it. I am trying to bridge gaps in my town and my particular attention to the community here and in other places is because I need to ensure certain persons in my community understand that everybody means everybody. I will be glad to have LGBT persons in positions of service and ministry in the church should they have the desire to help give a damn about the world. I'll do it based on what God speaks to their heart and not PR. ;) At this point I have the age old problem of a few more pew warmers than workers and so pretty much breathing and no warrants out for you...your in. :eek:

3. Learn to listen, really listen, to the stories of LGBT people who talk to you. Our stories are our witness, to use a classical religious term. Honor our stories, we'll honor yours. I will take that very seriously. One of the reasons I wanna try to build my little bridge in my county. I wanna get the other church leaders in the area to hear the stories.

4. Be open to the possibility that you may well learn more about God's love from gay people than they will learn from you. Be open to that possibility -- it could be a grace-filled moment. I thought I met Jesus when I said a prayer in 1986. I was wrong. I met him in the eyes of a little girl in Haiti with swollen feet and a distended stomach as she tugged my shirt sleeve and smiled at me. In her eyes I met Christ. It is always in the eyes of another that we meet Jesus...at least Matthew 25 tells us that when Jesus sifts the goats and the sheep. We are cool there.

You might research some of Sailaway's past threads. He was thinking of founding a bible-study group in his conservative church for GLBT people -- or something like that. That may be the thread I was thinking of.

I'll hold your efforts in prayer.

I am not really a conservative dude, but I live in a conservative county...so I will read what he had to say.

Thank you so much for taking time out to post. :)

[tdogg]

Ben kinda nailed what I was going to suggest, in a round about way. For instance, I would be willing to have discussions, even with pastors and church members, but I probably wouldn't be too patient if they wanted to give me their opinions in regards to 'sin', gay = wrong, turn from my lifestyle (always remember it's NOT a lifestyle). I agree, there would probably be more GLBTs would teach in this type of forum than to learn.

I like the idea of a panel. I also like the idea of a gay-straight alliance type of organization, much like those in schools. We need more of that for adults too, at least those with the possibility of opening their mind. I also believe there are some folks that just aren't going to be open to the slight possibility of learning anything from us, and minds are not going to be changed. We need to focus on those who are apt to listen (such as the pastors you spoke of).

[CaptainSnoopy]

Gay = no sin or gay = sin would not even be on the table for these talks.

When the gay community comes to a concensus on that one I might even begin to consider that talk.

http://gaychristian.net/greatdebate.php

Nah, I just want peeps to sit in a room and talk and love.

[tdogg]

Well, Patrick I think you're one to something and if you can pull it off, it will probably end up being helpful. I think we need to do more of what you have in mind. I think we need to talk, write and get our truths told out there in the world. We have the additional challenge of being able to 'hide' either willingly or unwillingly, and we'll only become visible when we start getting out there.

You're on the right track. I'm interested in how your idea develops and what feedback you get from the others you want to get involved in this. Because I'm interested in developing (or assisting on) a grass-roots proactive 'action' where we do one-on-one and group outreach. I believe it needs to be a joint effort with GLBT people and straight people and people of all faiths (and no faiths). That's one of the reasons I like your idea for an all-inclusive church, where it doesn't necessarily cater to one section of the community.

[CaptainSnoopy]

Thank you Tdogg. I have been reading some of your posts and I am humbled to hear accolade form you.

I suppose one thing I would like to know from the Soulforce community is this.

Once I get Ministers and Church leaders into a room with representatives of the GLBT community, I would need a forum moderator to keep things respectful.

My question would be this....

What should be on the agenda and what should be tabled if it comes up?

I know this is a subjective question...but if you were in that room and you had an opportunity to speak to a group of ministers...what would you want them to know? What would you want them to walk away with? And if they looked at you and sincerely asked,"When I leave this room, what do you want me to do differently?"

What would your answer be?

[Zerbie]

Once I get Ministers and Church leaders into a room with representatives of the GLBT community, I would need a forum moderator to keep things respectful.

My question would be this....

What should be on the agenda and what should be tabled if it comes up?

I know this is a subjective question...but if you were in that room and you had an opportunity to speak to a group of ministers...what would you want them to know? What would you want them to walk away with? And if they looked at you and sincerely asked,"When I leave this room, what do you want me to do differently?"

What would your answer be?


You need to get a committee of your colleagues to plan this together with you. Find someone with previous experience planning conferences, that will be critical.

What you need is 3 or 4 other people to partner with you to make this a joint project. Contact some organizers and pastors in your area who reflect the values you want this conference to reflect, and ask them to work with you.

[Alecto]

Around here, the local rights group sponsored a town-hall-meeting type thing with legislators to talk about rights bills that are coming up this year, and kind of detail what they actually are. They've had one so far in a welcoming church (and invited over 100 local churches to send at least one representative, though only about 50 did), and are looking forward to doing more. This gets 'em in the building and shows a definite sign that yup, you really are supportive and not afraid to be seen being publicly supportive.

The other thing you might consider is having a contingent in the local pride parade (if there is one?). I'm in a fairly small city, and every year our parade is made up of bar-floats, political groups, student groups, but MOSTLY churches (which I found really interesting the first time). I'm not a churchy person, but if I were looking for one, I'd probably start with who was in the parade, again because it's a step to show that the inclusion message isn't just lip-service.

[BruceChris]

I guess you have to touch them emotionally, as well as with reason. If they can see that the Great Commission should never conflict with the Great Commandment, that is a start.

Being able to get consideration for the idea that one's affectional constitution is something that you are born with, and that no gay person that I know of has ever said that it was a choice, or that it was a choice for them.

They were born that way, God made them that way, and God created them in love.

Maybe bring some gay folk who like themselves, A LOT, and can say that they are grateful to God for making them as they are; gay, happy, and loved.

Being able to get acknowledgement of the understanding that God speaks to us in many ways, in addition to what is found in the bible. (Going into rant mode here) I believe that since God created the universe, S/He also created the laws of physics, quantum mechanics, the periodic table, relativity and all of the other stuff that God has allowed us to discover and understand thru science.

At Vatican II, it was acknowledged that the bible is not a science book, and that we are indeed allowed to live in a Copernican universe. (Of course, it still took the Vatican another 30 plus years to pardon Galileo, retroactively.) You probably cannot talk to any cleric who has never gotten over the feeling of having been attacked by science. There are a lot of basic beliefs that may need to be questioned, and this may threaten some, or at least take some time to get comfortable with.

Science seems to be finding that we all have the same, nominally female body for the first few weeks of life, and that our anatomy, orientation, and gender identity are all formed by a complex interaction of hormones, and hormone receptors, as well as chromosomes. And from what I can see, S/He intended it that way.

I have heard that Robby and Dotti, of Gay Into Straight America, often proceeded by simply being themselves, and making friends with people, especially conservative Christians, one at a time. There probably is no wholesale method.

Edit: You might even have to ask for feedback on each of these points, one point and (This gets really messy here), one person at a time. Again, there is no wholesale method.

2Edit: Obviously, I am a far better student of my subject, than I am a teacher. All of these points are important, but you can't likely process all of them with all attendees in one session.

Namaste' Bruce Chris

[CaptainSnoopy]

@zerbie : Committees scare me. In church I have found it to be the quickest way to get nothing done. ;) That said, there is wisdom in your concept of collaboration. I will be working with others to make this happen. Thank you.

@Alecto: We have a big one in Chicago, but I do not know what is in the suburbs. I will have to look into that. It turns out I missed a prop 8 protest in my area. If another one happens soon I will gladly hold a sign and march with new friends.

@BruceChris: The movable middle is the target here. At the moment that is all I have to say. You gave me quite a bit to chew on and I need to digest it because it is rich and I do not wanna gloss over your thoughts here.

[tdogg]

Patrick, first I want you to know, that if you ever want to join a protest in Sacramento, you have a place to stay! It's a couch, but you would be and will be welcome in our home. :love:

I would want your group to get to know me as a person first (not as a label). I would want them to hear what it means for me to love, and why I love the person I do (and why it doesn't make me different or a freak). I would also want them to know how organized religion (in the form of Christianity) and religious family, friends, pastors, church members have hurt me and how I will never let them take my spiritual beliefs from me (though they have and continue to try). I would like to have an opportunity to answer their questions, from my point of view. I would be open to joint discussions.

I wouldn't be open to justifications for condemnation, for either religious or non-religious reasons. But otherwise, would probably be open to any discuss as long as it felt like I was being hear. I've had nearly 40 years of pentecostal religion shoved down my throat (well ok, sometimes it felt like that!), and now I kinda feel like it's my turn to talk.

It sounds like the group you would like to assemble (of pastors, ministers, etc.) would be fairly open to discussions with GLBT and allies. That's the key.

[RedneckDyke]

I have had some experience with conferences and such about gay christians. There was a More Light Presbyterian conference at our church once. What was funny was that the staid, white, "frozen chosen" Presbyterians didn't seem to have a problem with the visiting More Light church people for being gay. What they had a problem with was that at Communion they brought the elements to the altar singing and dancing in the aisles. They were dancing and waving big scarves and singing "I am a human being. Make way for the image of God." It was very theatrical and fabu but it was a little over the top for our high churchy type crowd. :)
I think having a float in the parade is a great idea. Also, our UCC went to pride and gave out water bottles with the church name on them. Free water is a hit. Pride is like the State Fair. Everything is expensive and people came over to us so they wouldn't have to pay 2 bucks for water somewhere else. We also organized a small worship service with Communion with a few other churches. We had it at Pride before the parade. It was awesome. There is nothing like giving Communion to so many people in drag or leather and have them crying saying that they hadn't taken Communion is years.

[CaptainSnoopy]

I have had some experience with conferences and such about gay christians. There was a More Light Presbyterian conference at our church once. What was funny was that the staid, white, "frozen chosen" Presbyterians didn't seem to have a problem with the visiting More Light church people for being gay. What they had a problem with was that at Communion they brought the elements to the altar singing and dancing in the aisles. They were dancing and waving big scarves and singing "I am a human being. Make way for the image of God." It was very theatrical and fabu but it was a little over the top for our high churchy type crowd. :)
I think having a float in the parade is a great idea. Also, our UCC went to pride and gave out water bottles with the church name on them. Free water is a hit. Pride is like the State Fair. Everything is expensive and people came over to us so they wouldn't have to pay 2 bucks for water somewhere else. We also organized a small worship service with Communion with a few other churches. We had it at Pride before the parade. It was awesome. There is nothing like giving Communion to so many people in drag or leather and have them crying saying that they hadn't taken Communion is years.

WOW! Communion for those who get it...it is a beautiful thing and I have never thought about how it must feel to not experience that moment with others before. Thank you so much for that.

[Jennifer5]

How do we get that message spread to other Christians and churches and pastors in our respective areas? How do we get everyone into a room to listen and talk?

I do like the conference idea, but what size group are wer talking about?

If you're expecting a large group, I can't offer much... but I go have a couple ideas for smaller groups.

One thing is movie night. It tells the community that you are very welcoming. You provide a family friendly movie on a big screen and a place to spend the evening. You pay for this by selling popcorn, candy and drinks. Don't know how it will help the chuch, but you're about bridging the gaps right? Does that mean it always have to be religious?

Two, what about a community potluck? Have people come and bring their favorite dish. This gives everyone a chance to talk, without any commitment.

Three, what does your community have to offer? In my town we are surrounded by different tribes, so the church strongly supported a medicine wheel.

Oh course, that particular church isn't doing well and the medicine wheel gets a far better turn out then they do... but maybe that's what bridging the gaps is all about.

Perhaps where you are, the meditation group would be well received?

[Petrese]

What should be on the agenda and what should be tabled if it comes up?

I know this is a subjective question...but if you were in that room and you had an opportunity to speak to a group of ministers...what would you want them to know? What would you want them to walk away with? And if they looked at you and sincerely asked,"When I leave this room, what do you want me to do differently?"

What would your answer be?

Convey to them the humanity. In other words let them see people, the person that happens to be LGBT. Not just 'gay' but a human. I think how to do that best is just what others above have said, let a few people tell the story of themselves. If a person sees commonality between themselves and another person then it is a lot harder to be biased against that person. The BS just kinda goes away what is left over is reality.

[Petrese]

Science seems to be finding that we all have the same, nominally female body for the first few weeks of life, and that our anatomy, orientation, and gender identity are all formed by a complex interaction of hormones, and hormone receptors, as well as chromosomes. And from what I can see, S/He intended it that way.

Namaste' Bruce Chris

hmm, perfect , well put

[sawyer]

Why do single people go to church. Straight singles go looking for friends and spouses. That's the same reason I'd go to your church. It has to be a gay place. There has to be others like me. Attractive guys. It has to be like any other gay place minus the ultraloud music and the other stuff that bars have. Make it a christian gay place and you'll get a lot of straight people that will come along with them because whether we want to admit it or not we're all bisexual, more or less.

I dont go to gay bars. I live 7 hrs. from Chicago. I'd come to your church if there were friendly gay guys there.

[PaulCOreo]

Have you contacted the Chicago Coalition of Welcoming Churches? They are a group of churches which has a lot of interrelations on a variety of interdenominational topics. I am new to Soulforce? Is the Chicago Chapter active?