Bash Back!

[Unmasked]

Ordinarily I wouldn't bring this up, but I heard about it in class tonight and found that it was noteworthy enough to get a mention on Wikipedia, so I decided to have a look at it.

There was a...demonstration at a local Assemblies of God megachurch, a congregation I have little love for, but I felt rather conflicted at how to feel about it. The radicals give us all that image, which isn't endearing us to anybody, but sometimes I wonder if it's time to start getting more radical. Maybe our movement needs the gay Malcolm X to stand up and lead the battle.

Honestly I'm torn. I want to say that it was wrong of them, but part of me also really wishes I could have been there to witness it.

http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081112/NEWS01/811120369

http://bashbacknews.wordpress.com/2008/11/11/bash-back-raises-hell-at-anti-queer-mega-church/#comment-279

The Lansing State Journal, and the group's own blog. I think the one thing that got to me was the cry of fear "the queers are everywhere." We've been demonized, and while I want to say that the group proved the absolute stupidity of the flock, I worry that they are only reinforcing a negative image, and possibly setting us back 20 years in our struggle.

I guess I want to know what everybody thinks about this, and what we can do with our anger.

[CaptainSnoopy]

I read about this from someone and his thoughts were on his blog...

http://www.skippingtothepiccolo.com/2008/11/anarchist-group-disrupts-michigan.html

[u-dog]

Whether this strategy is an effective one depends on what you want to accomplish. If the term "homophobia" (i.e. fear of homos) is accurate, that is, if anti-gay folks are IN FACT acting out of their fear then you have to ask yourself if doing things that make them MORE afraid or which confirm their fears is really going to make homophobia go away. I'm thinkin...not. Anger and Hate usually just engender more anger and hate and usually violence is the ultimate result.

However if what you want is to express your rage and just sort of get it out of your system ... then ... sure, this probably works. On the other hand though, since straight people outnumber gay people by at LEAST 10 to 1 and possibly 15 or 17 to 1 ... do you REALLY want to piss them off?

[sauu4equality]

I read about this from someone and his thoughts were on his blog...

http://www.skippingtothepiccolo.com/2008/11/anarchist-group-disrupts-michigan.html

I'm sorry Captain, but I almost totally disagree with your friend you cited there. WHile I understand he is upset about how it was portrayed and the results of the incident, there was no violence involved in the attack. So, comparisons to Nazi's and the KKK do not fly with me. WHile they may have more ambitious goals in terms of destroying our government, this single act does little to suggest these intentions. No one has been harmed by this group at this point in time, so I refuse to call them terrorists. In fact, I wish every Christian would get hit in the face with a dose of reality on Sunday morning on how destructive their theology is to the lives of Gay people. Not literally, but a little literature wouldn't hurt. So, while I don't think their tactics were necessarily well thought out or even close to accomplished any of their perceived goals, the portrayal of them as some kind of hate group is absolutely ridiculous. Just as the portrayal by the McCain/Palin campaign of the Weather Underground was absolutely ridiculous. What is right or wrong any more? Christians are directly causing the murder of hundreds of GLBT's and continue to spread false information about gay people. Hagee blames gay people for natural disasters and terrorist actions against the U.S. This type of speech is much worse than throwing a few pamphlets and running around a church yelling Jesus was a homo. The lives of Gay people are in serious jeopardy and we're going to complain because some people yelled "it's ok to be gay" in a church???? Well isn't it????

Let me once again reiterate, I don't think their methods are effective and would not suggest that we begin doing them. I just think we need to slow down before calling them a terrorist or hate organization. The chants that were made did not in any way attack Christianity. So, calling them a hate group against Christians is just outrageous.

[sauu4equality]

Just as an addition, something that does bother me about the group is their use of Islamic-looking clothing to cause fear. While they do not use violence, this is a form of terrorism. Still, they should not be compared to White supremacist groups. I stand by my previous statement other than this observation. They are very close to becoming a violent group if they are not careful. It would be good if they could refrain from this.

[CaptainSnoopy]

So, calling them a hate group against Christians is just outrageous.

I did not say I agree with his thoughts. I merely posted them as worth reading. I cannot see their hearts. I do not know if they hate. But again, you have to ask, what tactics are worth using? If one is trying to move past hate and ignorance, then using love and enlightenment is the natural and organic opposite. That does not mean one cannot and should not make a stand. One should stand for what is right. We all need to be careful of our means, otherwise entire groups that have nothing to do with the actions of others will be lumped in. Just as you speak of Christians in broad strokes over the actions of some, others will use gays in broad strokes over the actions of some.

I wanna live in a world where them becomes us, they become we, those become ours. The danger we are facing now as the divide increases is we are getting deeper into a world where everybody shares the same story, where there is no listening to other perspectives, and there is no stretching and expanding and opening up.

I am a Christian and I feel pity for those who claim to follow Christ but choose to say hateful things and do hateful things that affect others who merely want the right to love. In the same way, I feel pity for the young people who disrupted a worship service for they also interfered with people who merely wanted the right to love in what was not a loving manner. Opposite of love seems to be hate. Even if the hate is not in the heart, even if the actions are understandable...what they did was wrong. That in NO WAY justifies the actions of those who wronged them....you tell me of a church who raised large sums of money to make prop 8 happen...I will say wrong. Who post propaganda and fear claiming there is a gay agenda...I will stand with you to say it is wrong. To a church who is an accessory to battery and murder due to hateful words...I will agree with you.

The actions of Dobson and Saddleback and the LDS in California scare me...but so does this action.

[sauu4equality]

[QUOTE=CaptainSnoopy;63460]I did not say I agree with his thoughts. I merely posted them as worth reading. QUOTE]

I know. My reply was to the blogger. His words were enraging. These kids need to get in touch with some older gay rights activists. Not be painted as Nazi's. You can see how young they are in their picture. I hope they read this site.

My point is, when the majority is so wrong that it becomes difficult to tell what right and wrong even are any more, it is hard to measure what recourse is appropriate. In relation to what the Religious Right and Conservative Christians have done to this country (put is in an unjust war, created a culture of greed due to worship of capitalism, kept gay people from being equal under the law), this act is pretty small. I just wish that Fox News and others would put these things into perspective. But because they start with the assumption that anyone that contradicts their book must be evil, judgement is all we can expect from them. I sympathize mostly with Bash Back. They need to understand that this cannot go on any longer. They will thank themselves later if they can find non-violent, non-disruptive ways of protesting. It would be good for them to watch the History Channel's Gangland episode about the FSU gang, a gang that was against hate and would beat up anyone who hated (Nazi's mostly). In the end, they become no better than the groups they hate. As for feeling sympathetic to Christians, well, of course I respect the dignity and worth of all human beings as a UU. But having been in that circle for a long time, I know that this argument is mostly about hate. They are so afraid of change, that they hate anyone that would like to make the world a better place.

[RedneckDyke]

No, it doesn't do us any good to go disrupt a church service. Although I can see why people would want to. Sometimes people are like mules. We work really hard and put up with a lot of crud. But if we get beat one too many times we will kick and kick hard.

There is a movie called Freedom Song where a kid asks a civil rights organizer, "How can you be non-violent when they treat us this way?

The organizer says "I practice nonviolence as a political strategy because it works. But in my personal life, you hurt me and I beat you like a rented mule."

In other words, when we are organized, we should have peaceful demos and not hurt people or break things. But as individuals, we have got to look after ourselves.

[tdogg]

Wasn't it Rev. Mel White & Gary who used to sit in a church and stand up anytime the preacher said something anti-gay? That was their way to protest. I think eventually Gary stopped because they had done it for so many years, but perhaps Mel still attends?

Made me think, although protesting outside the church is probably much more fun, perhaps planning the silent protests inside would be more beneficial. I think it would work better if the group were bigger. A show of solidarity by a large group rising at the preacher's anti-gay message. Of course, you run the risk of being run out, but then you would have a reason to move the protest outside (they won't let me into church!). Just a thought..

[Rick336]

Wasn't it Rev. Mel White & Gary who used to sit in a church and stand up anytime the preacher said something anti-gay? That was their way to protest. I think eventually Gary stopped because they had done it for so many years, but perhaps Mel still attends?

Made me think, although protesting outside the church is probably much more fun, perhaps planning the silent protests inside would be more beneficial. I think it would work better if the group were bigger. A show of solidarity by a large group rising at the preacher's anti-gay message. Of course, you run the risk of being run out, but then you would have a reason to move the protest outside (they won't let me into church!). Just a thought..

When the gay rights ordinance was repealed by voters in St. Paul in 1978, a group of us staged a protest at the church that was the instigator of the anti-gay campaign. On Sunday April 30th, 1978 about 25 of us went to Temple Baptist Church in downtown St. Paul, entered the church and sat as a group.

As soon as Reverend Richard Angwin started talking hate against "homosexuals"" one person in our group shouted something ( I don't remember what he said ). Angwin immediately ordered the ushers to escort us out of the church. We all walked out in a single line singing, "We shall overcome." We continued the protest in front of the church.

We only did this that one Sunday so I doubt that it had much impact. However, if we had done it every Sunday for weeks, the impact would have probably been much greater.


History here --->http://64.233.169.132/search?q=cache:WjbDChNKKhcJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Save_Our_Children+Temple+Baptist+Church+St.+Paul+A ngwin&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us

Rick