I Challenged My Conservative pastor!

[AJLove]

The conversation:
My quotes are in blue his are in red.


My pastor is a very wise,kind and good-spirited man, but I disagree with his views on homosexuality. You see today after church service was over I approached him and asked him if we could talk. He said,

"Ok, just meet me in my office."

I met him there and I said,

"What does the Bible say about homosexuality?"

He opened his bible and told me to turn to Genesis 18 and I read all the way to 19:17. While I was reading he was explaining to what was going on. Since I'm well informed of the Story of Sodom and Gomorrah then I knew what to expect.He was explaining to me that the cities were filled with homosexual men and that God said it had to be destroyed. I was little nervous but alot more confident then my first visit with him so I gained some courage and I responded by saying,

"Well if a man has sex with another man whether it be forced or not it doesn't men that he is homosexual. There are many cases where in male prisons most rapings are done by heterosexual males. Your definition of a homosexual is someone who behaves in that manner or does something physically with another member of the same sex. the definition of homosexuality has changed over time. And so has Christianity is has evolved and still is."

Then he said is a soft warm voice, " A homosexual is some who has sex with someone of the same sex. And it doesnt matter the what the definition of man is but what the definition of was God has said," he points to his Bible, " In the bible it says what God think about and he is always right."

Then he asked me,"Do you see yourself marrying a women? There are plenty of young ladies who could be a good companion for you."

"Yeah I do and I'm sure anyone can, in the physical and actual action yes I can marry a women but I would be unhappy."

"Are you attracted to girls?"

"Yes emotional and spiritually, they make wonderful friends."

"God can help you son, just give him a chance. When you pray what do you pray about?"

"For god to help me understand"

"Ok but you need to also pray to ask God to change you into the man that he wants you to be."

Then after some more talking we began talking about my mother, who has been talking to the pastor, he stated off by saying,

"You know your mother is a very good mother. No many people ere blessed to have someone like he in their lives. She's trying to help you. She's trying to save my soul."

I nodded and said, " Yes she is a very good mother and I thank God for her. And I understand that she wants the best for me but I disagree with her beliefs as well as yours."

After that I really remember what was said until the end of our conversation when the pastor said,

"So you strongly believe that you are right"

"Yes, I do"

" Ok then I want you to show me one verse that condones homosexuality and I'll give you a list of verse that condemns it."

"Alright I will"

We then prayed and ended the conversation with a handshake and a goodbye.


I'm doing research like I've never done before right now but I cant do thi alone so can someone please help me.

Here's a link to a 4 part report called "The Philosophy of Homosexuality" (http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=32119488077) Let me know what you guys think.

Keep in mind I'm only sixteen (17 on Dec. 4th) so I'm very limited to what I can do.

[scott snedeker]

I would PM uncle Andy on this one! But for my own advice I would change the game:

First go to leviticus and find every entry mentioning abomination. You can find it online I'm sure. Print every one.

Then pick ten that are obviously psychotic and ask:


Here it is written that it is an abomination to wear blended fiber clothing. Yet you do not examine the tag on my shirt and tell me I am sinning by wearing a wrinkle-free poly/cotton shirt.

The difference is not that the Bible chooses which passages are abominations. That was done already. This Bible here is an inanimate object. It's you and others like you, Not God who cherry pick which abominations are real and which are not. So until you stop defying God and weigh all abominations equally you can't Convince me that you are speaking for anyone but yourself.

Obviously you can't live your life without defying any levitical law without being arrested. It is impossible. Neither can I or anyone. So we choose how to live. You can't claim refuge in telling me to repent for living true to my capacity for same gender intimacy unless you repent for every levitical law you break. Your view that homsexuality is a sin simply because it is written

You live by your cherry-picked verses and I live by my own because for me to live by yours (and they your selections not God's) would mean me betraying my own heart and Nature. I can not betray my nature for the same reason you can't betray yours. That would be dishonoring God's gift to me.

But here is your sin.

And it is one that I as of yet cannot forgive you for.


By Cherry picking homosexuality based on your bias and telling gay adolescents and adults that they are second class humans and sinning by existing, you are psychologically damaging innocent children. For that you owe repentence beyond all the sins you have committed in your life combined. Because it is deliberate use of influence for predation on the vulnerable

[Steven E. Webster]

A.J.

I'm not sure I'd play either the Pastor's game or Scott's game. I don't see either game as a "winner" (a stalemate maybe).

I believe there are a few passages that are open to a positive homosexual interpretation. The whole story of David and Jonathan, for one. Another is Ecclesiastes 4: 9-12 (the passage my husband and I used in our marriage ceremony in Toronto). Also I believe the story of the healing of the centurion's "boy" by Jesus in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke seems to honor a homosexual relationship.

While I think it is easy for gay people to see themselves affirmed in these passages, our adversaries are not likely to see these passages that way. Your pastor is likely to belittle your attempts to see gay people in the scriptures (though they must be there--even if in the closet).

Also, bear in mind, that the Bible, though it may be divinely inspired, is also a cultural product. It is the product of a patriarchal culture that oppressed women, slaves and gay people. I don't think it is fair to use the Bible to justify homophobia in the modern world, but our adversaries don't play fair. I think accepting your pastor's challenge to play this game is just opening yourself up for spiritual abuse that you don't need.

You are a minor. You are still partly under your mother's control and possibly under the control of the church. You need to find strategies to keep your spirits up and maintain your sanity until you can go out and choose your own church and pastor and form your own family. Being part of this forum is one of those strategies. Maybe avoiding conflict with either your mother or pastor is another strategy.

I'm not sure my advice is relevant to your situation--so take it with a grain of salt, please.

Steven Webster

[AJLove]

I want to prove him wrong so bad at the same time I dont feel I'm ready yet. If say to him " I changed my mind" I dont wan him to think he was victorious in his attempt. I forgot to mention he said to me " Out the 30 years I've been preaching I have not found one passage to condone homosexuality" But always uhhh...I really want to put this on hold until I'm ready even though I know a lot it's not enough and also I still have much to learn and as I was just sitter here researching I got a terrible headache. I do have other things to worry about..such as school (I'm a senior) and my love life. But I dont know what to do....I think it was just that I was so anxious to prove him wrote I didnt think before I said anything. But how would I have looked if I told him I cant prove him wrong? Again..I dont know.

[FoxInSox]

AJ,

I don't really have advice for you...I could recommend some books if you are interested that address the topic, though.

What strikes me about this conversation is your ability and your pastors ability to be calm and respectful during this dialogue. I'm encouraged to read of that happening, especially with a pastor and a teen. Although we are strangers, I'm proud of you both.

I get the sense that you are quite nervous disagreeing with him, but what you described sounds mature and respectful.

Although Scott'sstragety is appealing to (because I *really* like to be right -- if you are gonna be a literalist, you ahve to be a literalist about EVERYTHING), I think Stephen's point is really valid. You have each expressed your perspective on things; at this point, trying to prove you are right may easily damage the relationship. In my experience, when playing "I'm Right," usually both parties lose.

[pnggrad79]

AJ,
I don't know the reference verse for this right off the top of my head, but it is in the New Testament and it says something like, "In Christ, there is no male or female, Jew nor Greek,..." It is in a letter from Paul.

My contention would be that if in Christ there is no male or female, and those distinctions are meaningless to Him, why should it matter to us who we love and are attracted to?

That verse in Genesis he quoted to you is clearly taken out of context. You can't as Scott said "cherry pick" verses out of the Bible and make them relevant today. That was a different cultural era and should be examined in that light. Today's morals and values are very different. Today, there is no way anyone would offer up their two virgin daughters for a whole town of men to gang rape, and if they did, they would be charged with a lot of felonies. That is exactly what Lot offered to do!

These men were not homosexuals in this passage. They were a group of men who didn't know these two angels that had come to rescue Lot and his family. In that day and age, travelers had to depend on the hospitality of any town in order to survive. Therefore, the cultural more' of the day was to take in strangers and provide them food and a place to sleep. (Cite the example of the Good Samaritan) These men of Sodom had gone against every social more' of that time. They were going to rape these two strangers instead of offering them rest and food, like was expected of them.

The town was not destroyed because of this, it was condemned long before it was destroyed. In Genesis 12 or 13, God had offered grace to the towns of Sodom and Gomorrah. They refused, and that is why God had them destroyed. He gave them over to their sin and that is why they were destroyed. Not because of homosexuality.

You can also show your pastor in Ezekiel, it says that the sin of Sodom was inhospitality. Jesus also refers to the sin of Sodom when he commissions his disciples to go from town to town preaching the gospel, and he warns, them, if the town rejects them, they are to wipe the dust off their feet and those towns will face a fate worse than that of Sodom. That's in Matthew.

I will try to find the exact passages and PM them to you. Good luck my young friend.

[BenL]

AJ,

You're quite courageous to stand up to your pastor and calmly converse with him about your views on homosexuality.

But there's a problem that I think you've sensed already: He's not truly listening to you. He is CERTAIN that he's right and that you're wrong. I'm equally certain that you won't convince him even with the best intellectual or biblical arguments that you can muster.

The problem with your conversation is the disparity in the power equation -- at least as he and possibly your mother perceive it. He believes he has authority and that you don't. You are not arguing as equals as he perceives your relationship.

Now is probably a time in your life when you cannot, as others have suggested, assert your total independence. But it is a time when you can deepen your understanding of yourself and your relationship with God. That relationship does not have to be mediated by a parent or a pastor. You are old enough to begin to relate to God as an adult in your own right.

I understand your desire to convince him using his own rules. I doubt you can do that because he is not open to anything you could do to show him he misunderstands God's word. Your goal should be, rather, to convince yourself of how you feel about yourself. Your instinct is right about asking God for understanding, but that understanding does not have to be what he or anyone else dictates.

Thanks for turning to us for support. It means a lot to me and others here.

[AJLove]

I never really thought about how this would end. Mostly I know I won't change his mind but at the same time even though he asked me to look for a verse. He has toms of experience over me. However I see no reason to to prepare myself for a letter date. But as for right now I feel that I'm not ready. I told him my views and I know his. That should be enough for now..so we can both agree to disagree and go our separate ways. but how do I approach him with it...I'll think I'll be even more nervous to tell him I don't want to do this anymore,at least not now.

[BruceChris]

But I think I can help you to expand it a lot, and perhaps help you to gain some comfort.

"To take the Bible seriously, you cannot take it literally" Many Biblical scholars have said this.

In his book "Saving the Bible from fundamentalism", Episcopal bishop John Spong finds every inconsistency and contradiction in the Bible, as well as a few things that have been proven to be untrue, and puts them all in one book. The Bible is meant to be guide to spiritual growth, and emotional maturity, not an all purpose do-it-yourself manual.

Science is finding more and more evidence that our gender identity, our orientation, and our anatomy are all determined before birth, and not always in neat little stereotypical packages. God made us this way, or that way, and I do not know of any gay person who has ever said that it was a choice.

And nothing that you do or that your pastor says can change the fact that God loves you

Peace, Bruce Chris

[Daniel]

Proving one's point is all very fine and well. But my sense is that, if one lives long enough, the need for approval from those who set themselves up as authority figures starts to wan. And that is a good thing.

In the end it really doesn't matter what the bible says or what someone says it says. Your life and experience exist outside of what someone believes or doesn't believe. It matters because it is.

Doesn't need a reason. Doesn't need a rhyme.

All else is clashing cymbals looking for an orchestra.

[Rick336]

In his book "Saving the Bible from fundamentalism", Episcopal bishop John Spong finds every inconsistency and contradiction in the Bible, as well as a few things that have been proven to be untrue, and puts them all in one book.

I agree. Spong has some good advice. I've read a lot of his work.

Rick

[Rick336]

. By Cherry picking homosexuality based on your bias and telling gay adolescents and adults that they are second class humans and sinning by existing, you are psychologically damaging innocent children. For that you owe repentence beyond all the sins you have committed in your life combined. Because it is deliberate use of influence for predation on the vulnerable

AJLove,

Your minister means well. He sincerely believes that what he is doing is the right thing. But like Scott explained above, his advice is harmful and is psychologically damaging.

But my advice to you is to read the Bible and see that there is a lot of scripture that even your minister would disagree with. For example, does your minister believe the verse below should be taken seriously?

Exodus 31:15 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death.

If your minister believes Exodus 31 is God's law as he does Genesis 18, then that means that he believes that anybody who sweeps their front walk on Sunday should be executed.

Of course, he doesn't believe that people who sweep their walks on Sunday should be executed. So this means that even he believes that the Bible can be wrong. So, if Exodus 31 is wrong, then Genesis 18 can be wrong too.

Read the Bible.

Rick

[Matt Algren]

" Ok then I want you to show me one verse that condones homosexuality and I'll give you a list of verse that condemns it."
I'm going to skip the rest because the others probably covered it. But this one sentence really put my backhairs up. First of all, Jesus said very plainly not to put God to the test. I'm pretty sure that includes cherry-picking verses that seem to back you up so you can sword fight with your parishioners.

If you do this, his list will undoubtedly include all of the sexual immorality verses, whether they mention gay sex or not. Also if you do this, you might want to bring up David and Jonathan. They were pretty doggone clearly in love. (His story is told in 1 Samuel 13-31. He is also mentioned in 2 Samuel 9)

Regardless, you probably won't make any headway, AJ. I'd probably give him a copy of this (http://www.soulforce.org/pdf/whatthebiblesays.pdf) and be done with it. Try to limit your contact with him or find other ways to mitigate the problem.

This sucks, AJ, but remember that no matter what he says, your preacher is not God. No matter how warm his tones or how much soft his sales pitch, YOU ARE NOT A MISTAKE. God loves you as you are. He will never turn you away for being gay, nor will He ask you to "pray the gay away". He made you this way! Why would he want you to change?

AJLove,

Your minister means well. He sincerely believes that what he is doing is the right thing. But like Scott explained above, his advice is harmful and is psychologically damaging.

But my advice to you is to read the Bible and see that there is a lot of scripture that even your minister would disagree with. For example, does your minister believe the verse below should be taken seriously?

Exodus 31:15 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death.

If your minister believes Exodus 31 is God's law as he does Genesis 18, then that means that he believes that anybody who sweeps their front walk on Sunday should be executed.

Of course, he doesn't believe that people who sweep their walks on Sunday should be executed. So this means that even he believes that the Bible can be wrong. So, if Exodus 31 is wrong, then Genesis 18 can be wrong too.

Read the Bible.

Rick
The Sabbath is Saturday. Sunday is "The Lord's Day". Technically it's working on Saturday that is against the Law.


By the way, what's the Biblical basis for praying the gay away? Other than the negative proof (being gay is bad, so you should change), has anyone ever heard an argument for the Bible talking about something like that specifically?

[Gennee]

Hi, AJ. A friend of mine did an in-depth study on the subject. The website is

www.epistle.us

Click 'Homosexuality and the Bible', then scroll down to Sodom. I pray this will help in your study. Keep me posted.

Gennee

P.S. There's a wealth of info in this section.
:pray:

[christa08]

Hi, AJ :)

I just wanted to say that I hope that God will show his love through you to this pastor you're talking about. and also...HAPPY BIRTHDAY :D 17 is a good year...have fun :)

[sjbouza]

Gennee,

First to you, thank you for that link. I went there and scanned a couple of the articles. I plan to go back and read them more fully. I just wanted to say thank you for posting that.

AJ,

I have found that trying to "win" an theological argument with someone is futile at best. They already have their mindset and it is VERY difficult to change that. No matter what "proof" you put before them they will always find some kind of "fault" with it.

I have found it best to give them the information, discuss it with them and if it changes their mind the great, if not then you did all you can. It is sort of like how I view "judgment". When you tell someone they are wrong because the Bible says they are, that is passing judgment on someone. Most Christians I have come across tend to do this. They say it is within their right because they are "just pointing out what the Bible says". However, I disagree on that point and here is why. One can point out what one "thinks" the Bible is saying to them to another person, however, that is where it must stop. First, how do they know that they are interpreting the passage(s) correctly. Second, the Bible is flawed no matter how hard people try to say it isn't. It was a book that was put together by a group of people from a HUGE selection of writings. So what they felt belonged in it is what ended up there. Third, it was translated from a different language into English. When one translates from one language to another there are words that cannot be translated, they must be interpreted. There may not have been an English word for the word that is being translated so the people had to "guess" what the author was trying to say.

So when someone tells me that I am wrong for my beliefs or that I am going to hell because the Bible says homosexuality is wrong I just take it with a grain of salt. You cannot convince everyone how you believe or what you believe in. That is why we have so many different Christian denominations today.

I posed this question to my pastor once. "With all of the different denominations out there in the Christian faith how does one know which is the right one to follow? They all believe different things and interpret the Bible in different ways. So how do you know that you are interpreting the Bible the 'right way'?" His answer to me was simply "by faith". My response back to him was, "then how can you tell me that I am wrong by my interpretation of the Bible. I have interpreted it by faith just as you have. So who is right?" His response, "we will find out in the end."

So that is what it comes down to. Who knows who is right or wrong? No one does and that is the whole point. We all have to live by faith in what the Bible says to us as individuals, not by what someone on a pulpit says it is does. The Bible instructs against that very thing. We are to decern for ourselves.

I will say this to you AJ, you will not be able to "prove" him wrong. He believes just as you believe. You both have read and interpreted the same book just with different meanings. Who is right and who is wrong is not for us to decide, that is God's job. Put your "argument" forward and let him do the same and most likely you will just have to agree to disagree on the subject. Twenty people can see the same accident and you will get twenty different versions of what has happened. That same thing applies here.

Good luck and Peace,
Scott

[Petrese]

Good Luck AJ, I think it's pretty cool that at 17 you have the balls to challenge your pastor in a positive way. everybody says that you likely won't succeed or that it will be hard to get the guy to change his view. well that might be true, but hey, whatda they know? you might just be the one who gets this guy to see the light. and regardless of the outcome you should feel good about facing up to him positively and maintaining your cool, and he should respect you for that too, even if he isn't swayed.

[sailaway58]

AJ, you're a great kid.
I do two things when in similar circumstances.
1. I talk about in the same way you did. If the person is interested in my theology then…
2. I give a copy (as suggested by matt) of What the Bible says and Doesn’t say About Homosexuality.
I explain that this is my view of scripture and I’m not interested in debate. I tell them that if they are interested in where I am coming from read the pamphlet.

There is a #3 I like. It’s called stirring the pot. But that’s just a hobby.

[scott snedeker]

I never really thought about how this would end. Mostly I know I won't change his mind but at the same time even though he asked me to look for a verse. He has toms of experience over me. However I see no reason to to prepare myself for a letter date. But as for right now I feel that I'm not ready. I told him my views and I know his. That should be enough for now..so we can both agree to disagree and go our separate ways. but how do I approach him with it...I'll think I'll be even more nervous to tell him I don't want to do this anymore,at least not now.

By holding his view, AJ, he is spiritually attacking you. To let go of the suffering that his attack has caused you, you must forgive him. To forgive him without betraying your heart you must not allow any further attacks first.

This means saying "good bye." Otherwise he will continue to attack you spiritually and justify his entitlement to do so. This makes him a spiritual predator.

For your heart to grow and live you must nurture it is a spiritual sanctuary devoid of predators. Your heart is kind with the capacity for intimacy with other fellas. You must develop this capacity, for this gift from God to Blossom. It needs your protection, love and kindness. It deserves these

That means finding another church that affirms your gay heart and can appreciate the beauty of your loving spirit and not prey on it with eloquent gently spoken verses telling your to hate yourself.

Be good to your heart. You are becoming your own man. Let go of this pastor. He is not part of your spiritual path. He never will be. He doesn't respect you. He doesn't cherish your spirit. Let go.

[Jester25]

Wise words, Scotty. :)

Unfortunately, it seems a lot of people are unwilling to give up their beliefs. That's why I've never been fond of 'religion' more than faith. Furthermore, you have some serious guts to stick up to your pastor like that - the voice of one is how the voices of many are heard, and how change happens! :D

I do agree with Scotty, however. If you're starting to second-guess yourself about whether or not this pastor is right over what you think is right, and if you're starting to feel uncomfortable, it's time to leave. Find a more accepting church. There are plenty of open, affirming churches out there; I believe the Triangle Foundation has a few lists of them that might be of interest to you.

Whatever happens, just remember that the Powers that Be, what you know as God, made you who you are, and you can never be more than whom you really are. God doesn't make mistakes, AJ. :)

[Libre]

AJ, you are wise for your years. I think you handled yourself much better than I could have. And I am 65, been saved for 33 years, and yet find it hard to speak truth to authority, like my pastor for instance. Though I am not gay, God has been leading me to advocate, in my small way, for gay issues, especially for gay Christians.

Please excuse this intrusion from a newby to this forum. But I can certainly relate to the experiences you and other have had with conservative Christians. I have taken a lot of heat in Christians forums, and been booted from one, for daring to suggest that homosexuality is not a sin.

In my own church, I am silent. I have told one person that God gave me a heart for gay Christians, becuase she knew a lesbian couple had been coming to a group for mothers of toddlers that is open to the community.

And I gave some general advice to another lady, in front of the pastor's wife, about a granddaughter who "had chosen the gay lifestyle, after having graduated from Oral Roberts U." I merely told the lady to support her granddaughter, and that the girl was well aware of all the arguments, and just to love her.

So, keep the faith, and my dad used to say.:love: