Church

[christa08]

As usual, I'm caught in a swarm of confusion about God and life and everything inbetween. I've been thinking a lot lately about church and the purpose it does/should serve in your life. (I have a feeling this is going to be a long one so get ready.)

I'd love for everybody to post their thoughts and opinions. As I've said before, I'm spiritually open-minded.

Church. *sigh* Does God want me to go to church? I think it *should* be a place where you can go and be openly accepted and listen to great teachings of God's love. However, I have never been to a church like this...and I have been to a lot of churches in my lifetime. Is God mad that I don't go to church? Sometimes I think I'm bad for not going and other times, I think it's ok. So confused!

Ok...has anyone seen that movie Stigmata? My mom made me feel like such a heathen for liking that movie. Even more so for loving the quote in the movie "The Kingdom of God is inside you and all around you. Not in mansions of wood and stone." I have tried my best to investigate the origins of that quote and found that it comes from a book written for the bible that was never put in the bible or something. I wonder why it wasn't put in the bible?
What are your thoughts on this book that wasn't put in? I guess I just don't really understand exactly what is so wrong with it.

Sometimes I catch myself thinking maybe the bible is a collection of books written by men who are from a completely different time and I have a very hard time applying anything from the bible to my own life except the very basic verses like loving one another. Maybe that's the way it's meant to be...maybe we're supposed to just find the few good verses and the rest are just for a good read. Who knows. Like I said...I'm very confused about how I feel about Christianity lately. I don't even want to be labeled as a Christian because so many people give it a bad name.

Now...if someone, anyone, could read this and maybe give me a little bit of enlightenment...I would be eternally grateful :pray:

-Christa :love:

[sauu4equality]

One day he was with his disciples in Judea, and he found them gathered together and seated in pious observance. When he [approached] his disciples, [34] gathered together and seated and offering a prayer of thanksgiving over the bread, [he] laughed.

The disciples said to [him], "Master, why are you laughing at [our] prayer of thanksgiving? We have done what is right."

He answered and said to them, "I am not laughing at you. You are not doing this because of your own will but because it is through this that your god [will be] praised."
-Gospel of Judas (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5340606)

This is from the Gospel of Judah. To me it sounds as if he is laughing at their fear of God. I think other Gospels and books not included in the Bible probably do not perpetuate the idea of fearing God.

My personal belief is that the 66 books (strange number to go with...could have left out Joshua...that book is so frikin' evil) were cherry picked to fit a group of conservative people's idea of what Christianity should be. This applies at least to the Gospels of Thomas and Mary Magdalene. I think the Gospel of Judas was found later.

More from the Gospel of Judas:

They said, "Master, you are […] the son of our god."

Jesus said to them, "How do you know me? Truly [I] say to you, no generation of the people that are among you will know me."

Here this does not jive with the other Gospels. Sounds like he is refuting the idea he is the son of God. We couldn't have that in the Bible.


Finally, my advice to you is to let go of the guilt. I lived with it for a long time and still do from time to time. Thanks to my upbringing, I can't even enjoy being in love with another man or even meeting a man that I'd like to get to know. So, the sooner you let go of the guilt the better. God, Jesus and Faith are a collection of difficult questions. Try to focus on God's love. The reason I still consider myself a Christian is that I see God's love in Christ. I can't tell you what happened back then. Only that he seems to make God understand how hard it is to be human. And he gives me hope of a loving God. What Jesus seems to say throughout the Gospels is that your heart is what is important. Not sitting in the pews or judging others (including yourself). :love::love:

[sauu4equality]

On another note, the Gospel of Mary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Mary)could be interpreted as a Gnostic text. Gnosticism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnostic) is the belief that God is imperfect and we are trapped in a material world but will one day be liberated from this material and bonded again with God.

This text is still included in the Catholic Bible (probably why so many Catholics are tolerable human beings ;)).

[BruceChris]

As some of our Biblical scholars here will tell you, there were a very large number of books, and other writings that were left out of the Bible, we don't even know exactly how many, or what they were.

Of those that were included, an unknown number were either mis-translated, or deliberately edited, depending on who had access at the time.

The Bible is the canon of the Christian religion(s). It is the collected works that are said to be the source of truth in Christianity.

Sometime around 300 A.D., or C.E. as some say, there was a council held to address this matter. This council decided which books were to be said to be sacred and inspired, and the rest were thrown out.

Since then, dozens of translations have been done. I'll Google some of this, and get back to you.

BC

[Zerbie]

I think BC may have meant St Constantine, the pagan Roman Emperor who converted to Christianity later in his life. In 325, Constantine, who was a MAJOR head of state (the Roman Empire was huge!), convened the Council of Nicea, and if I'm not mistaken, it was at that council where Constantine and those higher-ups he chose, codified the present-day Bible and which books would be included, and which, not. If this is in fact correct, then we can see how the choice of which books comprise the Bible was in fact a political expedient that best served the needs of the 4th century Roman Empire. A good reason for 21st century people to not take it all literally.

[nervezapper]

oh how I wish you were near me. I could take you to a wonderful church that loves and accepts all no matter who you love or what you believe. We are out there!!

I grew up in the Baptist church but I always believed differently. I tried and prayed but I just could not fit my beliefs in with what I was taught so I found a new spiritual community.

I don't believe you have to go to church. The Bible says "Forsake not the assembling of yourselves together." It does not say go to a building you call a church, I think it means that you should gather with like minded people.

You may have already done this but check your local yellow pages for a Unitarian Universalist, Unity, or Interfaith church. These are good places to start to find a congregation that is open and accepting to more beliefs.

[BruceChris]

As some of our Biblical scholars here will tell you, there were a very large number of books, and other writings that were left out of the Bible, we don't even know exactly how many, or what they were. This was said to be a rather informal process, until the Synod of Carthage.

http://www.new-life.net/faq000.htm

Of those that were included, an unknown number were either mis-translated, or deliberately edited, depending on who had access at the time.

The Bible is the Canon of the Christian religion(s). It is the collected works that are said to be the source of truth in Christianity.

Sometime around 397 A.D., or C.E. as some say, the Synod of Carthage was held to address this matter, and it was presided over by St. Augustine, I think. You could say that he was the Bible's editor. The Synod decided which books were to be said to be the Canon, sacred and inspired, and the rest were given lesser status.

Since then, dozens of translations have been done. The King James version is held to be the preferred version by conservative Christians, because it was the first bible to be translated into English.

Well, actually it was NOT the first English translation, and some of the translators may not have been the best, but it is sometimes referred to as the Authorized Version. It is assumed by many to have been the Inspired Word of God, and Biblical Literalists are much happier to have only ONE source, so they cling to it.

EDIT: Somehow, this website took the editing of my first post, and submitted it as a seperate posting. Go Figure

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[BenL]

Christa,

Don't worry about your confusion. It's proof that you're a rational, thinking being. If God wants anything of us, I believe it is that we question everything and think critically.

The church is like any other association of people you might join. If it lifts you up and makes you a better person, then go for it. If it drags you down and makes you afraid or makes you dislike yourself, avoid it.

Church has always been important to me. When I was a kid, it was part of the fabric of family for me. I grew up in the Roman Catholic church. I was so much a part of it that I ended up in a religious order for four years. I entered when I was 19 and left just after I turned 23. I did a lot of growing up in those years. I finally admitted I was gay. It was not a joyous affirmation at the time. I left because there was supposedly no room for me in that community. I know now that this was mistaken, although I daresay the order still believes it is true.

I then lived without the church for several years. That was a liberating time, but it included a lot of confusion of the kind you wrote about in the inaugural post of this thread. I needed to claim my own adulthood and independence.

After a few years, I found myself singing in a Lutheran choir because a gay friend of mine was music director and asked me to join the tenor section. Rehearsals were fine, but when I got to church on the first Sunday morning, a lifetime's experience of worship came flooding back, and I realized how much I missed it all. I knew that I wouldn't be comfortable in the Lutheran church (long story that), so I looked around and ended up in the Episcopal church, where I have been ever since, although I did take a couple of years off in the 1990s. That last sentence condenses what was a lengthy discernment and search process.

So, the real question is what does Christa want and need? And how will she know it when she finds it? No one here can answer that but you. But I can tell you that guilt is an inapproriate response to any part of your search. You are to be commended, not condemned, for posing the questions and searching for the answers. You will find the truth in your heart, not in the bible or any other book. The most the bible can provide is food for thought and more questions to ask.

Good luck. You'll find your place as you come to accept yourself for the loving and loved person that you are.

[BruceChris]

I get different results when I Google or Wiki "Council of Nicea", as opposed to "Synod of Carthage"

EDIT: From Wiki, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Carthage


The Council of Carthage, called the third by Denzinger,[4] on 28 August 397 issued a canon of the Bible restricted to: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Josue, Judges, Ruth, 4 books of Kingdoms, 2 books of Paralipomenon, Job, Psalter of David, 5 books of Solomon, 12 books of Prophets, Isaias, Jeremias, Daniel, Ezechiel, Tobias, Judith, Esther, 2 books of Esdras, 2 books of Machabees, and in the New Testament: 4 books of Gospels, 1 book of Acts of the Apostles, 13 letters of the Apostle Paul, 1 of him to the Hebrews, 2 of Peter, 3 of John, 1 of James, 1 of Jude, and the Apocalypse of John.

But always remember the Great Commandment: "Love God, and love one another as I have loved you"

Mt. 22:34-40, Mk. 12:28-31, Lk. 10:27, Jn. 13:34

I wish you the greatest success on your journey, Christa. God/dess Bless

Bruce Chris

[scott snedeker]

"The Kingdom of God is inside you and all around you. Not in mansions of wood and stone." I have tried my best to investigate the origins of that quote and found that it comes from a book written for the bible that was never put in the bible or something. I wonder why it wasn't put in the bible?
What are your thoughts on this book that wasn't put in? I guess I just don't really understand exactly what is so wrong with it.

Sometimes I catch myself thinking maybe the bible is a collection of books written by men who are from a completely different time and I have a very hard time applying anything from the bible to my own life except the very basic verses like loving one another. Maybe that's the way it's meant to be...maybe we're supposed to just find the few good verses and the rest are just for a good read. -Christa :love:



I see everybody tiptoeing around like they are pretending not to notice the elephant in the room (except Rick)


I think the reason you doubt the verity of verses is simply this. I don't personally think the Bible is anything more than poorly translated ideas of men (and no other author!) about the order of their universe.

Some men were geniuses of loving and the human heart like Christ.

And some were criminally insane fanatical murders and rapists, slavers misogynists etc who were either predatrory relgious leaders or editors.

NONE of them in my opinion speak for God.

So if you find a psychotic sounding verse then listen to your judgement, it was probable written by a psychotic or mentally ill human, not God.

If a verse opens your consciousness to your heart then this facilitates communcation to your inner spirit/ being/ God/ (fill in your label of choice), it was probably written by an enlightened loving mentally healthy human.

[highlyfavored123]

First let me first say that I have been right where you are many many times! It is ok to question God and all of his existence. You will surely find your way! I can also tell you that the bible says to know the WORD for yourself. As many have already stated, there are many of other books in the bible that arent even in the bible. Man had their hands on it and have interpreted it in many ways. I find comfort in knowing that as I read the pages, the Holy Spirit is comforting and assisting me with knowledge and understanding. Faith for me is something that is unseen in the physical but I do know that there is a God and that Jesus lives in me! I also believe in know of Gods Grace and Favor!

I am so blessed to have found a church here in Arkansas that is a GRACE CHURCH. We have a website with singing and sermons. Your invited to check us out: www.sherwoodopendoor.org.

I will be praying with you honey.

[christa08]

Wow! Ok so I logged on my computer today and definitely didn't expect so many responses already. Thank you all for your words of wisdom and thank you BC and Zerbie for your research!

But I can tell you that guilt is an inapproriate response to any part of your search.

ahhhh. guilt...blah. so much guilt :( I think it stems from the fact that I come from a very conservative Christian family and I'm still in regular contact with many members of my family. I feel like I have to put on this perfect mask when I'm around them because I know they would jump to judge certain parts of my life and my newfound beliefs. For example (this is kind of funny) I was visiting my aunt and we were chatting and my phone started ringing and my ringtone is I Kissed a Girl! and the look on her face...oh man. I felt so horrible that she heard it.

I do know that there is a God and that Jesus lives in me!

I know that there is a God and that I have accepted Jesus in my heart and everything...sometimes I just get scared when I think about the end of the world and whether or not I will go to Heaven. I just convince myself that God knows where my heart is and that I love him very much and that hopefully that is enough.

So if you find a psychotic sounding verse then listen to your judgement, it was probable written by a psychotic or mentally ill human, not God.

If a verse opens your consciousness to your heart then this facilitates communcation to your inner spirit/ being/ God/ (fill in your label of choice), it was probably written by an enlightened loving mentally healthy human.

This helped me a lot. Thank you.

What Jesus seems to say throughout the Gospels is that your heart is what is important.

This makes me feel much better...this is how I feel most of the time but like I said, sometimes the guilt creeps up and I feel like I'm not a good Christian. I just need to stop thinking in the mindset of what my family thinks is Christianity and start thinking in the mindset of God's love and go from there. *deep breath* I have a feeling it's going to be quite the journey.

[alphie]

Wow! Ok so I logged on my computer today and definitely didn't expect so many responses already. Thank you all for your words of wisdom and thank you BC and Zerbie for your research!



ahhhh. guilt...blah. so much guilt :( I think it stems from the fact that I come from a very conservative Christian family and I'm still in regular contact with many members of my family. I feel like I have to put on this perfect mask when I'm around them because I know they would jump to judge certain parts of my life and my newfound beliefs. For example (this is kind of funny) I was visiting my aunt and we were chatting and my phone started ringing and my ringtone is I Kissed a Girl! and the look on her face...oh man. I felt so horrible that she heard it.



I know that there is a God and that I have accepted Jesus in my heart and everything...sometimes I just get scared when I think about the end of the world and whether or not I will go to Heaven. I just convince myself that God knows where my heart is and that I love him very much and that hopefully that is enough.

This helped me a lot. Thank you.

This makes me feel much better...this is how I feel most of the time but like I said, sometimes the guilt creeps up and I feel like I'm not a good Christian. I just need to stop thinking in the mindset of what my family thinks is Christianity and start thinking in the mindset of God's love and go from there. *deep breath* I have a feeling it's going to be quite the journey.


Please read Psalm 139 - it is beautiful!

[Unmasked]

Anytime you give a man a pen, and then ask other men to vote on what books they should include in their big book, you're asking for trouble. The Bible contradicts itself for this reason. Everybody saw things differently. If something didn't mesh with their view of Christ, or allow them to beat their women, they didn't like it.

[christa08]

I read Psalm 139 (just now actually) and it made me cry...

Thank you for that suggestion...those verses hit my heart in just the right way. :pray: you have no idea how thankful I am to you.

[sarahbina]

As usual, I'm caught inb a swarm of confusion about God and life and everything inbetween. I've been thinking a lot lately about church and the purpose it does/should serve in your life. (I have a feeling this is going to be a long one so get ready.)

I'd love for everybody to post their thoughts and opinions. As I've said before, I'm spiritually open-minded.

Church. *sigh* Does God want me to go to church? I think it *should* be a place where you can go and be openly accepted and listen to great teachings of God's love. However, I have never been to a church like this...and I have been to a lot of churches in my lifetime. Is God mad that I don't go to church? Sometimes I think I'm bad for not going and other times, I think it's ok. So confused!

Ok...has anyone seen that movie Stigmata? My mom made me feel like such a heathen for liking that movie. Even more so for loving the quote in the movie "The Kingdom of God is inside you and all around you. Not in mansions of wood and stone." I have tried my best to investigate the origins of that quote and found that it comes from a book written for the bible that was never put in the bible or something. I wonder why it wasn't put in the bible?
What are your thoughts on this book that wasn't put in? I guess I just don't really understand exactly what is so wrong with it.

Sometimes I catch myself thinking maybe the bible is a collection of books written by men who are from a completely different time and I have a very hard time applying anything from the bible to my own life except the very basic verses like loving one another. Maybe that's the way it's meant to be...maybe we're supposed to just find the few good verses and the rest are just for a good read. Who knows. Like I said...I'm very confused about how I feel about Christianity lately. I don't even want to be labeled as a Christian because so many people give it a bad name.

Now...if someone, anyone, could read this and maybe give me a little bit of enlightenment...I would be eternally grateful

-Christa
__________________
I was shut down, blind, and broken.
Darkness over me.
Now my mind and heart are open.
Now I feel so free.

Dear Christa,

Although it may seem uncomfortable, it is great that you are questioning. Your questions will lead you to where you need to go. What does God want and where is the God that loves? Please keep looking until you find the answer for yourself. Your answer.

I want to share though that I know a place that teaches that God is Love, that God is Truth, and God is Good that does Good. And anyone can go because they give free classes on the internet.

So, why can't we always see that God is Love? We just can't see it yet, because we are out of harmony with nature and with the giving love that God is.

What I have learned is that God wants is for us to return to being like Him, giving, Loving our Friends. Kabbalah teaches how to do this. It is not something you just believe - but you experience it for yourself.

I know I'm jumping around a lot here. But it is also striking me that you love the Psalms. King David wrote the Psalms. They are in the Bible in the old testament, not the new testament which is the portion you raised even more questions about. King David was a Kabbalist and the psalms are a code of how to follow the method of Kabbalah to reach spirituality. David's method is difficult to understand because it is a code. More modern Kabbalists have described the method people use in our time in words that are much easier to understand.

The basis of the method of Kabbalah is one of the basic principles of the three major religions and most belief systems and faiths too. It is that we should love each other like they are ourselves. Kabbalah teaches how to really do this. And how to reveal God as we give to others.

It is really cool, because like the line in the movie you really like,
"The Kingdom of God is inside you and all around you. Not in mansions of wood and stone." The sages in Kabbalah tell us that we reveal God within us.

If you are interested in learning more about this. I'm happy to share what I'm learning. But better yet, you can learn from real teachers, I am just a student. I am so enthralled with this and amazingly, more and more people are being awakened to the desire to learn this method of connecting to God. Here is a link to a song that talks about making this connection straight to God. Yasher Kel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rtsmc7Z7nc0 ) It is what the title of the song means.

And here is a link to sign up for the free courses. Free Kabbalah Course - Bnei Baruch Learning Center (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2J_6WxsaMRo) Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindis, Buddhists, Atheists, many New Age seekers, and many more make up the world wide group that studies this method.

Go where your heart draws you...
:):love:

[alphie]

I read Psalm 139 (just now actually) and it made me cry...

Thank you for that suggestion...those verses hit my heart in just the right way. :pray: you have no idea how thankful I am to you.


I am glad that you read Psalm 139 - I has helped me many times and reminds me that God knows who and what I am. Thanks be to God.

- "Alphie"

[tdogg]

Any religion based in fear must be questioned. Spirituality should bring you peace, comfort, compassion, love, greater understand just for starters. Basing beliefs on ancient writings of men who had a self-interest in controlling women, children and 'weaker' men are not going to jot down God's intentions too accurately. Hell was likely developed by men who wanted to control others by instilling fear into the general population.

Modern days this is continued under the guise of "salvation". This is not to demean anyone who believes that Jesus is their savior, only to the belief that God would actually have a person tossed into an eternal, lonely pit of burning fire. A God that would do that is no god I want to have in my life.

Or perhaps I'm just full of it and have no idea of what I speak and God actually would create hell and throw gay people into it? ( At least I have some relatives and friends who would agree with this last sentence.)

[christa08]

Any religion based in fear must be questioned. Spirituality should bring you peace, comfort, compassion, love, greater understand just for starters. Basing beliefs on ancient writings of men who had a self-interest in controlling women, children and 'weaker' men are not going to jot down God's intentions too accurately. Hell was likely developed by men who wanted to control others by instilling fear into the general population.

Modern days this is continued under the guise of "salvation". This is not to demean anyone who believes that Jesus is their savior, only to the belief that God would actually have a person tossed into an eternal, lonely pit of burning fire. A God that would do that is no god I want to have in my life.

Or perhaps I'm just full of it and have no idea of what I speak and God actually would create hell and throw gay people into it? ( At least I have some relatives and friends who would agree with this last sentence.)


To be honest, I don't know anymore. I want to believe that God would not do this to anyone who is good and loves Him. I want to believe that God loves all of us. At the same time I've read that He is a jealous and mad God but I'm not sure if that is back in the Old Testament or not.

Also, the bible says to go out and "save" people but I don't believe in that. I don't think it's right that people go out on the streets and stop people and ask if they know Jesus. If somebody comes asking about God, then that's ok...because they chose to seek God...they didn't have it pushed onto them.

Here's what I have so far on the Bible. The Bible is an ancient writing by men who were living in a time where very bad things (polygamy, slavery, etc) were ok. So probably 75% of the Bible should not be taken literally. The only verses that matter are the ones that preach God's love. But then I feel like I'm "picking and choosing" like all the bad "Christians."

:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

[Zerbie]

Christa,

I think this is where discernment comes in. We are given intellect, capacity of rational thought, plus our intuitive guidance (gut feelings that push us one way or another.) Use all those things together and let each capacity communicate with all the others. Put it together with prayer and quiet contemplation and let guidance take place.

[wmanion]

Before I came to accept myself, I married and fathered three children. Those three children are the world to me. There is nothing they could do to make me stop loving them. They may at times do things that I disapprove of but I could never turn my back on them or disown them. My love for them surpasses anything they could possibly do. As I grew as a Christian one of the things I learned was the God is a heavenly father who loves his children more than we could ever possibly love our own. It is only logical for me to see that there is nothing I could ever do to make God not love me or want to see me live an eternity in eternal torment, because his love surpasses anything that I could ever imagine. Jesus told us that his new commandment was for us to love one another. I believe God is love and love is God. Whenever we show love for another, we are showing them the the part that God has put inside of us. There are many forms of love and love is a gift, a gift from God, which is actually God himself. We are nothing without love. I no longer attend a formal church because I find that church is not necessarily love. Many claim they love, but do they? Not if they are so busy with condemnation that they forget that God is love, and in love their is no condemnation.

Bill

[christa08]

Dear Christa,

Although it may seem uncomfortable, it is great that you are questioning. Your questions will lead you to where you need to go. What does God want and where is the God that loves? Please keep looking until you find the answer for yourself. Your answer.

I want to share though that I know a place that teaches that God is Love, that God is Truth, and God is Good that does Good. And anyone can go because they give free classes on the internet.

So, why can't we always see that God is Love? We just can't see it yet, because we are out of harmony with nature and with the giving love that God is.

What I have learned is that God wants is for us to return to being like Him, giving, Loving our Friends. Kabbalah teaches how to do this. It is not something you just believe - but you experience it for yourself.

I know I'm jumping around a lot here. But it is also striking me that you love the Psalms. King David wrote the Psalms. They are in the Bible in the old testament, not the new testament which is the portion you raised even more questions about. King David was a Kabbalist and the psalms are a code of how to follow the method of Kabbalah to reach spirituality. David's method is difficult to understand because it is a code. More modern Kabbalists have described the method people use in our time in words that are much easier to understand.

The basis of the method of Kabbalah is one of the basic principles of the three major religions and most belief systems and faiths too. It is that we should love each other like they are ourselves. Kabbalah teaches how to really do this. And how to reveal God as we give to others.

It is really cool, because like the line in the movie you really like,
"The Kingdom of God is inside you and all around you. Not in mansions of wood and stone." The sages in Kabbalah tell us that we reveal God within us.

If you are interested in learning more about this. I'm happy to share what I'm learning. But better yet, you can learn from real teachers, I am just a student. I am so enthralled with this and amazingly, more and more people are being awakened to the desire to learn this method of connecting to God. Here is a link to a song that talks about making this connection straight to God. Yasher Kel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rtsmc7Z7nc0 ) It is what the title of the song means.

And here is a link to sign up for the free courses. Free Kabbalah Course - Bnei Baruch Learning Center (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2J_6WxsaMRo) Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindis, Buddhists, Atheists, many New Age seekers, and many more make up the world wide group that studies this method.

Go where your heart draws you...
:):love:


I am very interested in learning more about Kabbalah. Maybe you could share more of your experiences with me in a PM?

It's been a while since I posted this thread. I've been feeling a little more at peace but still very confused about how I feel about Christianity. When I see it broken down and described as being like Christ, then I feel like I'm a good Christian because I am accepting of all people and that's how Jesus was. But when I start to think about everything I've learned growing up in Christian chuch, I feel like a bad Christian. I don't believe a lot of the things that I've been taught. So I start to seperate myself from being a "christian" and then I feel guilty because to me, it almost feels like I'm doubting God. I have seen God do too many wonderful things in my life to ever believe that He does not exsist. I know that He does and I love him so much. I have been trying to envision my faith like this: I have a personal relationship with God. I know that He loves me because He has done amazing things for me throughout my entire life. I don't really believe in a lot of the Bible. I don't really agree with most of the things taught in non-denominational Christian church and I definitely don't agree with about 90% of what all of my friends and family believe. So I'm finding myself conflicted. I feel like I'm digging myself into a deeper hole every time I think about all of this in depth.

A post on this forum made me interested in meditation. I bought a book called "Real Meditation in Minutes a Day" written by Joseph Arpaia and Lobsang Rapgay. http://www.wisdompubs.org/Pages/display.lasso?-KeyValue=33029&-Token.Action=&image=1

I have only read the first 2 chapters and decided I needed to start practicing the first technique before I move on (I have yet to do so :shifty:)

I think meditation will help me be able to think more clearly and maybe even help me in my spiritual search. I want to find the right religion that makes me feel enlightened and educated without condemnation of others the way Christianity has been. I need to realize that Christianity is not the only religion that worships the God that I love so much. I need to break that mindset :(

[Zerbie]

It's been a while since I posted this thread. I've been feeling a little more at peace but still very confused about how I feel about Christianity. When I see it broken down and described as being like Christ, then I feel like I'm a good Christian because I am accepting of all people and that's how Jesus was. But when I start to think about everything I've learned growing up in Christian chuch, I feel like a bad Christian. I don't believe a lot of the things that I've been taught. So I start to seperate myself from being a "christian" and then I feel guilty because to me, it almost feels like I'm doubting God. I have seen God do too many wonderful things in my life to ever believe that He does not exsist. I know that He does and I love him so much.





Dear Christa,

You put your finger on the problem right there, above. For simplicity's sake, let's say there are two definitions of Christian:

1. Like Christ, and/or aspiring to one's utmost to become like Christ

2. Member/follower of an institutional church who adheres to what s/he is told and taught by individuals considered "leaders" and by the collective mindset of the group.

Definition 2 very often includes teachings that are as different from Christ as it's possible to get, and often leads to extremely non-Christlike behaviors.

In my life, Definition 2 wins out for sheer number of examples and extremity of the non-Christlike actions demonstrated. Therefore I do not identify as Christian and am certain I probably never will. However, if you go by definition #1, then technically I would probably be considered "Christian," but I will wince if you call me by that word.

Christa. This needs to be stressed: There is NO way separating from your institutional church, or the collective beliefs of the 'tribe' of people around you can possibly separate you from the God you love, who loves you. If he inspires you to create mental distance between your individual growth and the thought-life of the group around you, that is only evidence of how he draws you to further understanding and development. Do not fear losing him, as you cannot. You cannot lose that divine source. Where can it go, after all?

Definitely keep up with meditation. It will be like wiping the frost off the windshield of your car, where suddenly you can see the road again.

Meanwhile, I'm thinking that you might also enjoy the writings of M. Scott Peck, particularly "Further along the Road Less Traveled," as that book gets into explanation of how and why he came to declare himself Christian, and how he distinguishes the Christianity to which he adheres from the more dogmatic forms one often sees in American culture.

[tdogg]

Hi Christa!

Zerbie nailed it in her post. I wanted to add that I believe meditation to be an important step in building and nurturing your relationship with God. Especially if bible reading is included in that! it's also a great stress reliever, but personally I have yet to be consistent with my practice. I'm a REAL beginner, so no advice on the how.

My spirituality is based upon Zerbie's example in #1, and I have a difficult time identifying with those who call themselves Christian. I also like the teachings of Buddha which are fairly in line with those of Christ.

What if everyone's personal faith belief is what is actually true for them??? (I ask myself that quite a lot.) :love:

[dsdrane]

My own decision to embrace an "organized religious point of view" -- in my case a particular demonination of Christianity -- was my attempt to adopt a framework for my spiritual path and was never meant to exclude other points of view or paths to better understanding God.

For me, Christ is A Way -- a way that has bcome My Way, but I have yet to be convinced that he is The Only Way.

Similarly, I don't think communal worship is necessarily "required". Many, myself included, like to participate in communal worship because it's a chance (for many, perhaps their only chance) to step outside of everyday life and commune with others with a particular spiritual focus. It takes you outside of your self; it reminds you that you are part of a community.

Plus you get to sing. :D

All of which is to say: don't sweat it. Look around; investigate; try things on for size. God's in no rush. :)

[christa08]

Mark 10:1-9, which says (NIV):
Jesus then left that place and went into the region of Judea and across the Jordan. Again crowds of people came to him, and as was his custom, he taught them.

Some Pharisees came and tested him by asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?"

"What did Moses command you?" he replied.

They said, "Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away."

"It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law," Jesus replied. "But at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female.' 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

verses 10-12:
When they were in the house again, the disciples asked Jesus about this. He answered, "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery."

This leads me to doubt the Bible even more :confused:

My parents divorced when I was 7 years old. They remarried when I was 12 and quickly divorced again a year later. Almost immediately, my dad married another woman and they were married for about 6 years before they eventually divorced. My mom never remarried.

I know my parents and I love them very much. My parents are God-loving individuals. Although we don't agree on everything, I know they are good people. Am I supposed to believe that my dad is going to hell because he married another woman? That is just ridiculous to me. Even though it scares me a lot, I am very much doubting the Bible. I don't remember where I read it but someone said that modern day Christians have made the Bible an idol and I really do believe that's true. In my upbringing, I was taught to believe EVERYTHING the Bible says and not doubt a word of it. Now that I'm questioning things, I've found evidence of that fear that is instilled in Christians within myself. I'm afraid to doubt the Bible but I see things to be doubted. I refuse to think "I've been taught this all of my life so I'll just go with that and stop thinking about it." I think that God is bigger than the Bible and His love knows no boundaries. I don't think that the God described in the Bible is the true God. God loves my parents and I know He would not throw them in Hell because of this one thing when they have lived their entire lives for Him.

[kara speltz]

This leads me to doubt the Bible even more :confused:

My parents divorced when I was 7 years old. They remarried when I was 12 and quickly divorced again a year later. Almost immediately, my dad married another woman and they were married for about 6 years before they eventually divorced. My mom never remarried.

I know my parents and I love them very much. My parents are God-loving individuals. Although we don't agree on everything, I know they are good people. Am I supposed to believe that my dad is going to hell because he married another woman? That is just ridiculous to me. Even though it scares me a lot, I am very much doubting the Bible. I don't remember where I read it but someone said that modern day Christians have made the Bible an idol and I really do believe that's true. In my upbringing, I was taught to believe EVERYTHING the Bible says and not doubt a word of it. Now that I'm questioning things, I've found evidence of that fear that is instilled in Christians within myself. I'm afraid to doubt the Bible but I see things to be doubted. I refuse to think "I've been taught this all of my life so I'll just go with that and stop thinking about it." I think that God is bigger than the Bible and His love knows no boundaries. I don't think that the God described in the Bible is the true God. God loves my parents and I know He would not throw them in Hell because of this one thing when they have lived their entire lives for Him.

The issue of divorce is an interesting one, to say the least. Jesus speaks clearly about it and yet, the vast majority of churches allow it, while at the same time damning us to hell.

I heard a Catholic priest once explain the situation around divorce in these terms. He said Jesus said was something like, "what God has joined together, let no man put asunder." But not all marriages are a result of God's plan for us. I'm divorced and my exhusband is one of my closest friends. We believe that God's plan was to give our adopted son a family, but that didn't mean that we were to stay together forever. Neither one of us could have grown to be the people we are, had we stayed in that marriage. I'm one to say that I have no regrets in marrying and no regrets in divorcing.

Thomas Merton has this wonderful prayer, that I always love,

My Lord God, I have no idea where I am going. I do not see the

road ahead of me. I cannot know for certain where it will end.

Nor do I really know myself, and the fact that I think I am following

your will does not mean that I am actually doing so. But I believe

that the desire to please you does, in fact, please you. And I hope

I have that desire in all that I am doing. I hope that I will never do

anything apart from that desire. And I know that if I do this, you will

lead me by the right road, though I may know nothing about it.

Therefore will I trust you always though I may seem to be lost and in

the shadow of death. I will not fear for you are ever with me and you

will never leave me to face my perils alone.

All I can do is try to please God in all that I do with my life. I believe God understands that, and understands our failings and inabilities, and does not condemn us.

Kara

[Gregory_de_Bois]

To be honest, I haven't read many of the responses, just as a disclaimer

Anyway, I often find myself in a slightly more conservative group on this forum, at least theologically. I'm a gay teen who wants to become an Episcopal priest. I think that there is a church for you. I think God wants you to be in an intimate relationship with Him/Her and fellow humans. Personally, I have found this intimacy in the Anglo-Catholic tradition. The bells and smells.

Why is it important to be in a church community? There is accountability. There is a safety net. There is encouragement. Mind you, this is in the ideal church. A Church is supposed to promote spiritual growth in its members. I believe that it is important to be Christ-centered and Bible-centered, but also understanding the experiences and choices of those who attend. But, it is important that you find a church where the Spirit Moves you. I pray that your spiritual journey will be nourished.

Grace and Peace.

[christa08]

I am excited to say that I'll be attending a Unitarian Universalist church on Sunday, February 22nd (I have plans on the 15th.) I'm really hopeful :) I think this is a place where my personal spiritual feelings/beliefs will really fit in and be uplifted. Thank you all for your advice, research, links, and words of kindness and wisdom. You have no idea what it means to me :love: